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| One of Us |
well if thats the case, then a US citizen/hunter who decides to proceed and import said Banteng trophies into the US, while knowingly being armed with the knowledge of the allegations against the outfitter/guide they hunted with, would not make them look to innocent and oblivious in the eyes of US F&W. Why?...because the US hunter could not honestly claim,[that at the time of importing the trophies], that they had no knowledge or suspicion that the hunt they executed may have been illegally conducted. now that aside, IF Mrs Boddington was infact under the guidance of Pennicott when an alleged illegal hunting incident took place, then this mess may be far from over....  | |||
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One of Us |
If the copy of Karl's permit posted above is of the original, I have some serious issues .... Firstly - if Karl was within those specified boundaries between 3rd Secondly - if Karl hunted or guided hunts in that area during the said period, then Karl was poaching and was guilty of a criminal offense. Why do I say this? Simple - Karl has not signed that permit & therefore has not accepted the terms and conditions to make the contract valid. Without Karl's signature, that piece of paper is not good enough to be used as $h!!t paper! Too rough and already dirty. The other point is that the permit is dated 9th Something does not smell right here. In fact it smells of rotting carcasses of buffalo bull. The above comments are made purely on the above information in this thread. It is possible that the copy posted above is not the original & that Karl has an original which is perfectly legal. But we do not know that. It is possible that the above posted permit is the original one with Karl's signature but the ink got washed out in the NT thunder storm!   "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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one of us |
Charge him or his wife! Who do you think it would hurt the most financially? TRAX, quit nit-picking! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes Nakihunter you are confused - maybe you ought to check the dates more carefully. What difference does it make if Karl has not signed his copy of the document? - For all you know and I would bet on it, the one with the Land Council will have been endorsed by both parties. The important part is to have the document signed by the Land Council in hand and if it is fake, as you suspect, it will eventually float to the surface, just like a turd.  Where I come from, any legal document that involves Govt. Offices, Councils, Companies, etc. the signature is confirmed either with a seal or rubber stamp. Maybe this is not the custom in Australia. | |||
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| One of Us |
Ok - the date error has been edited and corrected. Ok the Month of issue is May. But the date signed by the issueing person is still later than the start date of the permit's validity! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| One of Us |
MR. BODDINGTON should not have started this thread. | |||
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| One of Us |
I sort of scratch my head on the whole notion of poaching. When that term is used it typically refers to someone who is engaged in a event that is discrete or unknown to others. Taking a person with CB's persona and the likelihood the hunt may show up on TV would undermine that discrete initiative and bring it wide open. If I am understanding the boundaries of this species and the limited access to them it would be pretty "ballsy" to partake in the hunt by the PH or the "knowing" client and potentially expose it on TV for all to witness. | |||
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| One of Us |
Ladies & gentlemen: I have a proposition for you all. Before getting to the specifics, let me provide one bit of information that has not been discussed. This hunt was televised in The Boddington Experience. It was a for profit venture. I propose the following: 1- CB provide us a copy of the TV show without alternation. 2- We allow some Aussies in the know to view the show to determine if (a) it was in the park, (b) it was not in the park or (c) it cannot be determined. If these Aussies say it is NOT in the park, I will do the following: (a) apologize to Pennicott & CB. (b) donate $10,000 to The African Professional Hunters Relief Fund in the name of Pennicott and CB. (c) Chastize Karl publically. If they Aussies say it is in the park, then there are a lot of hero worshipping, ass licking true believers out there. Perhaps it will not be certain, then we have to agree to disagree. What do you say? | |||
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| One of Us |
As with everything else to do with this, I'd leave it to the Gov't departments in Aus to determine if it is or isn't in the park. Not many people would have been there to be able to make that call. Unless of course a particular feature was evident and then the Gov't department would be able to sort it out anyway. Question Do they have a copy of the TV program ? Have they looked at it ? Have they said one way or the other whether it is in or out of the park ? If they have spoken to the pilot, do they know where he landed ? Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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One of Us |
I think this needs to be over with, however it turns out, and everyone pick up their toys and move on with their lives. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| one of us |
Holy crap this thread is stupid. | |||
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One of Us |
 Geoff Miller and California Rigby are more interesting. | |||
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| One of Us |
Larry, I do not appreciate being called a hero worshipper or an ass licker. Please show me anywhere in my posts where I excused anyone involved in this damned mess. The truth is you dragged Karl into this mess and now he is catching the heat and you are throwing a childish temper tantrum. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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| One of Us |
Since we do not believe his second hand accusations without any proof behind them. So we must me hero worshippers or ass lickers.  All we have done is ask for proof and since none was ever presented I had to come to the conclusion that there is nothing to these accusations. Good Hunting,  | |||
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| One of Us |
David, I agree with many (most) of your posts. However, the concessions are Karls. The trophies are still in the land down under. Where there is smoke is usually a glowing ember. Remeber also NOONE has been able to support CB's claim. Not arguing, just making a couple of points. Jeff | |||
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| one of us |
...............AND THE KEYBOARD COURT ROLLS ON! ....................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I did not realize that the hunt had been filmed and actually aired on television. It does sort of make you wonder, if there is no problem why couldn't the video be set up on You Tube or somewhere to help shed some light on the true state of play. Conrad seems pretty facile with the internet, surely he could set something like that up. After all the back and forth, if nothing else I would enjoy just watching the video. Mike | |||
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 Wait a minute I thought nothing could be judged from a DVD, or BOOK!................HUMMMMMmmmm! Hey Mike just poking you a little, I too would like to see both edited, and unedited versions. .....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Touché, although my comment was directed to judging people not events. Seems like DVDs are pretty good ways to judge what actually happened. Mike | |||
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People who live in glass houses shouldn't! It's amazing how many people who have never met CB can have such wild opinions about him. I met him and his wife at Afton House in ZA a few years ago. He was hunting ele and I was hunting Johan Calitz's concession for buffalo. I am a somewhat gun writer and he's a real one. He took time out to talk to me and cover some of the various problems I was having with the nuts and bolts of the gunwriting profession. His wife (not quite yet at that time - 2008) and mine got along great. Look people, I don't profess to know him, but I can say from how we got along that he is 100% human being. He doesn't walk on water very well, and his days of leaping tall buildings are pretty much over. What he is is a gentleman and a very knowledgeable hunter. Leave us not worry or lambaste or second-guess a man who most of us never even met. In other words, let's drop this and go spend some useful time cleaning guns or watching Honey Bo Bo! Tom Murphy (Africa in 28 days - leopard) | |||
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Thomasjohn That has to be the most pointless piece of information provided in this thread and I think you only included that here to cast dispersions on CB. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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DVR's are wonderful things. | |||
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| One of Us |
Instead of placing too much blind faith in ones outfitters/guides, would not a precautionary request [by clients] the see the actual valid permits,be a smart thing to do? One may have much trust in ones hunt operator, but physically viewing/verifying things,would offer much more peace of mind.
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| Administrator |
How many of us actually ask our PH to show us the hunting permit? I know I never did, and I am sure the majority of hunters never do either. On all my hunts, the only time I have to do anything regarding my hunting license is to sign it at the end of the safari. | |||
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| One of Us |
Saeed, I am sure a lot of clients typically dont ask to see the permits. But IF those emails are true and correct, then Boddington was already particularly aware of the 'funny business' [shifty/dodgy things], that go on within the Banteng hunting part of the industry. ...when one is already aware of such...and when hunting forms such an important part of ones livelyhood [rather than just a recreational pastime], then someone like Boddington in his position,probably should make it his business to view any or all appropriate permits. - since being made aware of the illegal hunt allegations, Boddington was motivated to have the export of trophies 'put on hold' out of precaution, But it seems was not motivated to conduct a pre-cautionary preview of the required permits for the hunt, despite already being aware of the 'funny business' that goes on in the Banteng hunting industry.
IF one is already personally aware of the shifty nature of the Banteng hunting industry, and one decides to only take the word of the PH that everything is legit and AOK,[rather than properly verifying] Then it would appear that one has suffered a serious lapse in judgement. | |||
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| One of Us |
That is a mistake on the part of the hunter. It is his right as license holder to check and satisfy himself that the animals listed are the ones he was either offered or requested. Sometimes, genuine mistakes are made by the issuing clerk and if the permit is not counter-checked prior, one may find themselves in a sticky situation when entering the downed animal on the license only to find it unlisted. I make it a point of checking it myself and showing it to the client for his approval - any omission of a specie can be immediately notified to the outfitter for the issue of a supplementary permit (at no extra cost). | |||
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| One of Us |
I have personally never felt the need. Maybe that has changed for me now. Between Zahir Mulla and Pennecott; perhaps it is time for greater diligence in my part. Jeff | |||
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| Administrator |
I think I will stick to hunting with honorable PHs,and not worry about anything illegal being done. | |||
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| One of Us |
+1 | |||
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| one of us |
I have said this before: I put my trust in my PH, guides, etc. It is what I am paying them to do. I trust they are taking me into areas that are legal, etc. Not having read this thread, and not casting judgment about this incident, I will say there are several writers who have violated game laws. One guy wrote a story about a muzzleloader hunt using a scope in a state where that wasn't allowed. A pretty well known TV bowhunter shot an undersize moose in AK and showed it on TV on Petersen's Bowhunting, I believe. He turned himself in (not that he had a choice; no pilot will fly out an illegal moose anyway) and admitted his mistake on the TV show; I respected him a lot for that. I was on a writer's varmint hunt where one of the sponsors supplied us with suppressors. Except at the time it was against the law to shoot varmints with suppressors. I would have thought the guides would have known, but apparently they were oblivious. Oh, and let's not forget Richard Venola, former Guns & Ammo editor. He shot a guy and killed him. He was acquitted of murder, but the guy he shot was unarmed. I hunted with Richard once. Never in a million years would I think he would have shot a guy, either accidentally or on purpose (but having a BAC of .23 an hour after the incident, I suppose anything can happen). Former marine, BTW. I don't know much about Pennicott, but you can toss US Outfitters into the mix of scumbags writers and others should avoid. | |||
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One of Us |
+1 on U.S. Outfitters. ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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| one of us |
Trax, I'm sure you are correct in the above statement. I will go further, with a doubt that out of a couple hundred hunters who hunt both Africa, and Australia, not more than ten of them have ever asks to see the permits of an outfitter! Most will simply read their written contract to see if what they booked to hunt is on the list, and the price point hasn't changed, and to see if the area where they were supposed to hunt is listed there. I doubt even the 5% would think to ask to see written proof that they have a permit to hunt that area. A few more may ask after this eight page flogging!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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One of Us |
Same applies for Mexico. It's common for an outfitter to not get the cites permit for sheep until after a ram is killed so they can resell the tag if its not used. There is one American outfitter that's notorious for this and it's bullshit. I always tell clients to ask to see the tag and cites permit before going | |||
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| One of Us |
Ladies & gentlemen: I would be extremely careful of Mr. Pennicott. There are more documents including the authorities inquiries of CB should anyone wish to see them.   | |||
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| One of Us |
Post the docs if you have them. | |||
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| One of Us |
Clearly the authorities felt this is worth investigating. I have to say that in my opinion, it was insanely stupid to film an illegal hunt to be show on TV. Clearly Pennicott had to know. As far as CB knowing, I have no idea whether he knew or not. | |||
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One of Us |
Craig over the past 30 years you have been a major component and force for restoration of African safari hunting classic rifles a good American a major player in bringing hunting and hunting related products to us the hungry consumer expect people to be small and with holding in regards to your contribution success and fame most of us know who you are what you have done and thank you for making this a better community and setting just the right example consistently for about 35 years in both your good times and the bad patches so Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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One of Us |
Sorry, I call BS. You don't get a pass in the legal system just for being Craig Boddington. If there were laws broken, there are consequences. We are a nation of laws. Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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| One of Us |
Unlike a great many here, I prioritize my short list of things I give sh*% about, to not include this. It's a time management issue, pure and simple. I simply do not have enough time to follow the long list of poor decisions by TV hunters, let alone the endless list of screw ups by other hunters. I barely have enough time to make sure that I am not one of them. If I was CB, I simply would not post here. I would remind CB of the legendary Tanzania PH. (The guy is known world wide for videoing animals suffering until they charge him in order to sell vids). You don't see him on here trying to explain this or that. At some point everyone asks the question: Why do I care what someone else thinks? | |||
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| One of Us |
I just saw this string resurface and looked at some of the posts. I just spent a week with Craig hunting whitetails in Ks. There were five hunters in camp and to a man we all had a great time, the laughs would not end. Conrad was camp appy (for lack of a better term) and he is a great guy with a cool sense of humor. He may have made a mistake with the sale idea (my god how much used clothing is hawked on AR) but one small misstep should not carry so much condemnation. | |||
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