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| One of Us |
TXlonghorn I am very happy to Tip after a Safari, but do not want to be screwed over a barrel if I do not Tip as much as the previous client or as much as the PH and his crew are demanding. As I stated if we could get into a situation that we could Tip as a % of the crews daily income then I would be happy. It’s not like they are getting paid peanuts, in relation to their cost of living as well as local minimum wages they seem to be well paid. So let’s test the field, I am off on a 12 Day Forest Elephant Safari in May, Total Day rates are $35 000 What does the AR community expect me to Tip on this Safari in Total? I would appreciate any suggestions, at this stage I am still planning on as with all my previous safaris, $100 per day to the camp and $100 per day to the PH. Is this too much or too little? JK | |||
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I AM PLANNING MY FIRST AFRICAN ADVENTURE my first i have no idea what to tip how much to budget for looks like twenty or so camp staff i have searched and come up with the same answer not specific very vague, i guess i will just ask the outfitter before i pen a contract i really dont like going into a large expenditure so blindly if other hunters from other countries dont tip do they get revenged by trophy damage or being totally lost DRSS,SCI. ZOLI 9.3X74R (2) Zoli 450 400 NE Merkel 470 NE V-C 600 NE VICTOR SARASQUETA 375 | |||
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| Administrator |
There is an enormous difference from what you are suggesting and the safaris I have been on and the restaurants I have eaten at. On a few occasions, I have actually refused to pay the 15% "service" charge at 5 and 6 Star hotels. And I have made them aware why I am not paying for a service which fell far short of what I would have expected. In one restaurant, the head waiter got a bit pushy, saying "it is normal to pay 15% service charge". I called for the manager, and he duly came. I explained to him the sort of service we got, and he agreed that was not acceptable. So you are suggesting that one goes on a 6 figure safari, and is expected to pay a 6 figure tip? | |||
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Good luck JPK. These are all arguments that were laid out ad nauseum on the thread that gave birth to this thread. The sad fact of the matter is that the notion of pay for performance makes many on AR queasy . . . sort of like the teacher's unions. They would prefer a one-size-fits-all approach where we all pay more in daily rates so they can avoid feeling awkward or uncomfortable making the decision to tip or not tip and deciding what amount to tip. I wish you luck but frankly fear that all you are going to do is wear blisters on your fingertips. Mike | |||
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If at the end of the safari I was over the moon with the teams efforts I would tip roughly 4K. Mac | |||
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i have no idea what a trackers daily pay is or camp staff pay so very frustrating to a new african hunter you guys that have been through it before do you remember how it felt to be a rookie its a one time deal for some of us DRSS,SCI. ZOLI 9.3X74R (2) Zoli 450 400 NE Merkel 470 NE V-C 600 NE VICTOR SARASQUETA 375 | |||
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| Administrator |
What a load of rubbish! Take a look at the prices offered for hunts in Tanzania, by different outfitters. Those who do offer something extra and have the best areas are charging higher price. And those who hunt with them know in advance what they are getting. To suggest that "one price for all" is ridiculous, as we all know one gets what one pays for. But, one should KNOW, and agree, to the price of the service he is getting. To leave it to some suggestions that it is an "expected tip" is not on at all. | |||
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There is little or no difference in the practices, with the exception of the $ amount. As you obviously know, not all tipping is based off of % of cost, and the opposite, not all tipping is based off of a base level daily tip. On a six figure safari for which I am the sole customer - and I have done one - my tipping (for the PH) is based on the same base level daily tip as any other DG hunter on a shorter or longer, as extensive or not as extensive safari. The same with trackers and most camp staff. Because my safaris have been elephant heavy I have given additional consideration to skinners, camp managers or appies who may have to do recovery in tougher circumstances or while we are off after another elephant, though for the indigenous staff members lots of elephant meat is also an additional benefit. For safaris with larger parties in camp, I would expect the aggregate tip to be greater than an individual's tip, simply because work load and logistics call for it. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Mike | |||
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Saeed, I believe you are well aware that your response to MJines is both off topic and non responsive, since he was writing of tips and you are writing of quality of hunting areas and "extras." Moreover, in my experience, the more upscale, the more the expected tipping. Third time: Please explain why you are against performance based compensation. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Let me say up front, I am not a fan of tipping. It is not an incentive for the company to provide excellent service, it is an incentive for individuals to promote themselves ahead of the company and the other staff. I worked part of my life in the food service industry, that set my feelings on tipping. The rest of my life I worked where you were paid to do a good job, and if you didn't, you were free to look for other work. Tipping is nothing like annual incentives based on corporate profits and should not be compared to them. Annual incentives are based on long term commitments to the companies success and can be effective tools for corporate growth. Later in my career, I was a manager of a pretty good sized service based operation for quite a few years. That taught me that the manager/operator/supervisor is better informed as to what employee compensation should be in a given workplace than someone who is there for a few hours or days. The owner knows what it costs to provide the service. The owner knows who makes things work and who is a good worker. The owner sets compensation packages and can set incentive packages. For example, in the food service industry, the server is the contact with the customer. Sometimes the tips are shared with support staff, usually not. It is a team that delivers the service, not just an individual. Tip motivated servers take orders out of schedule so that their customers got quicker service; Tip motivated servers do things that cost the company money to get better tips. These kinds of things go on regularly. The tip is based on an a customers impressions and often rewards those who did not improve satisfaction for all of our customers, only the one's they served. Other customers received poorer service through no fault of their servers or the support team. The manager/operator sees that, the customer does not. The actions of those tip motivated servers actually increased the work for other employees who may not share in that reward. A customer does not see the divisiveness or game playing that goes on that can really inhibit overall service, while making one employee look so good. I returned to sales toward the end of my career. We were an Ag service industry. We did not permit our customers to tip our employees. Our employees were expected to provide excellent service to all customers, even the ones who were jerks, and do it with a sincere smile. I just prefer to know what good service is going to cost me before I decide to buy it, honest and up front. Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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A case could be made that camp tips should be uniform, regardless of DG or PG hunt and daily rate. Do you eat more on a DG hunt than a PG hunt? Is your laundry more dangerous? Is the bed that much harder to make if the hunter dreamed of a 100 pounder instead of a 62" kudu? A comparison to the cruise industry is interesting. (but certainly an element of apples to oranges) For a 'daily rate' of $200+ on a Celebrity cruise, a $12-15 per day tip is recommended for all the staff. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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BlackFl, You wrote: "Tipping is nothing like annual incentives based on corporate profits and should not be compared to them. Annual incentives are based on long term commitments to the companies success and can be effective tools for corporate growth." Profit sharing incentive pay is one thing, bonuses are another. Annual incentives promote annual performance, they are poor measures of long term commitment, but I would agree that they promote growth. It is hard to grow when a competitor is paying more for the same talent. You also wrote: "It is not an incentive for the company to provide excellent service, it is an incentive for individuals to promote themselves ahead of the company and the other staff." When a staff member provides excellent service to a customer the company is providing excellent service to the customer. With tipping, it is in the mutual best interest for the staff member and the company to provide yeoman like service or better, without tipping, it is in the interest of the company - and also for the long term interest of the staff member, though few recognize that fact, but not necessarily in the short term interest of the staff member, who may have competing interests at any given time, and certainly not so obviously in the short term interests as when tipping is involved. In an environment where there is competitiveness between service providers, and a zero sum outcome - better service provided by one equals poorer service provided by another - I might see your point, but wrt a safari, of fishing trip or similar, there is no intra staff competiveness, no reason for it, each staff member has his or her own specific duties and responsibilities. Maybe some over lap, but there is only one customer. A manger or owner may be the most aware of the long term performance of an employee/staff member, certainly more than a client in a safari situation, but that isn't so relevant to the customer. What is most relevant to the customer is the short term performance of the staff member on the customers safari. Not necessarily wrt a safari, there is no doubt that as a customer that I have used my ability to tip a staff member to improve the results of my interaction with that company, and sometimes perhaps to the short term disadvantage of the company. But I end up being a satisfied customer, more likely to be a repeat customer. [And fore most businesses the cost of revenue associated with finding the next customer FAR exceeds the cost of revenue associated with a repeat customer - so the long term interests of the company are met.] Within some industries, I appreciate a company that prohibits tipping, and respect their viewpoint on it. And then I try to tip for exceptional performance anyway! One point not addressed very clearly, though a poster here and there has alluded to it, is the effect of a good tip for a job well dome on the recipient. Yes, there is gratitude, but, I think, importantly their is real appreciation for the recognition of having done a good job. The customer's recognition can be conveyed several ways, a pat on the back, a hearty "Well Done!," and a good tip. I use all three. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Regarding tipping camp staff for a DG hunt vs a PG hunt, I would agree with you. (My experience with non dangerous game hunting areas is limited to one side trip to a non DG area following one leg of a DG hunt en route to another leg of the DG hunt and staff tipping was suggested at the same rate per day as the DG areas I have hunted. Is your experience different?) For trackers and PH I don't, for the obvious reason. Dining or bar, fishing or safari, Celebrity cruise, they are all apples or all oranges. The all come with a recommended level of tipping. The basis and amount of the tipping changes, that is all. (Celebrity tipping, 3,000 passengers at $15/day, or $45,000/day.) JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I think you are correct. My fingers are getting sore and I'm behind on the stuff I need to accomplish today! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JK, I think your proposed tip is fine. If I thought the PH and staff did a superb job I might bump it a litte. I tip dependent on how hard the crew works and how many days the safari runs. It's not harder for a PH to do his job in Tanzania than it is in Zimbabwe all things being equal so why should he get a bigger tip? Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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One could look upon it as average and exonerate you from any criticism. You might feel more inclined to raise it should your hunt be successful and if the service and attitude of those around you was above your expectations. It could of course work in the opposite manner. | |||
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Some members have written and told me with terrible experiences. Both from their PH and hunting in general. Could people experiencing this ask for a refund? | |||
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I would. And with a first rate safari operator I would expect some consideration, if not a full refund. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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In this particular case the "reason" may very well be that you offered to pay a great deal more for the same hunt and your higher bid was accepted. I can't really fault anyone in this scenario. Your schedule only allowed for certain dates and your budget allowed you to pay more than the market rate for the convenience of those dates. I'm sure it is rewarding to be able to purchase what you want when you want it. Not all of us have that luxury. Macs B U.S. Army Retired Alles gut! | |||
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No, different hunts with different quota, but the same camp, with exclusive use of the camp by either me or the other guys. I paid no more to the operator for my hunt to get the dates I wanted than was originally quoted for my hunt before we started to look at dates and the conflict was discovered. At times through my life I have been more flush and less flush. (It is better to be more flush though.) I have never been able to willly nilly pay for what I want. Even if I could, I don't like paying more for something than I have to. On the other hand, as must be pretty clear to all by now, I don't mind rewarding people for excellent performance more than I have to. But, I think that is in my longer term interests too. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I agree 100%, and why more folks do not see the reality of that statement surprises me. Mike | |||
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Call the payment what you will, the operator got his rate, but his staff got twice their rate, therefore a higher bid. Nothing wrong with it, but if that wasn't the reason then why would you get a preference? Bottom line is that you were willing to pay more for the same service or there would be no justification for allowing you to hunt over the others. Macs B U.S. Army Retired Alles gut! | |||
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+1……… semantics. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Don't mistake my opinion as some pronouncement on your personal choices. There are a lot of services that I believe in tipping and even over tipping for at home, in the USA. Our system of wages is designed for it. I don't tip in places where a 20 dollar tip could be a day or two of wages. It is just too easy to upset the balance in that system. I also don't tip in European countries where the wages and social systems provide a fair wage for the service provided. Its a purely personal choice. Macs B U.S. Army Retired Alles gut! | |||
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It sounds like you gave the situation a lot of thought beforehand. Having thought this through and being comfortable with your choices; how would you feel if the PH flat out told you that that would be appropriate per day? What do you do then? Apologize and pay out 10 times what you thought up until a minute ago was thoughtful, generous and above average? Tell the PH to get stuffed? Ask how many more people are in camp? Just wondering. | |||
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On your point about semantics, ok, I see your point and don't really disagree (except to say that the staff's pay rate is set with the expectation that they will also receive tips.) The operator knew I would pay more in total, if not to him then to his staff - BUT, ONLY IF HIS STAFF PERFORMED WELL. I'm ok with that. Why aren't you? Note that this is one prime example of a generous prior tip being in my long term interests and securing me that LATER hunt, eh? And damn, if there was an industry designed with a system of wages with tips in mind it IS the safari industry! As far as upsetting some arbitrary view of "balance," I work hard to do it and to make sure that balance is disrupted in my favor. And, as you insist, that is why I got my hunt and the other guys did not. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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It surprises me too. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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The tipping issue should be a personal decision of the client only. I see on many outfitters websites where a gratuity is separate issue and by putting this into print a must. It indeed is up to the individual client whether to tip, the amount of the tip or not to do so at all. It has nothing to do with the PH, the outfitter or the business owner. If any of these require a tip and put this into print I find another. BTW, I have stated what I believe to be fair in another earlier post on this subject. It seems that lately everyone is looking for a tip. Hell, I would have been very happy to rec'v. at tip for my 41 year career. Never rec'vd. a one. Good 'nuff! I will decide if I will tip and what the amount will be. Not some PH, outfitter, tracker, etc. MTG | |||
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Don't you think, this all came to all of our attention, because there is possibility that the tipping is getting out of hand with some companies or most of them? Camps are full of extra help, three, four trackers with one hunter etc ? My overall look at this post is, that there is that real possibility of tipping abuse. My experience - some of both. Everyone of us has a point according to each's experience and view at these things as we all come from different backgrounds. In the end I agree with Saeed, he is not opposed to tipping, just trying to get feeling what we all think and that's where all this grievance comes out. " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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There is a particular restaurant that you enjoy. You go there frequently. Many times you end up being served by the same waiter. Does anyone believe that you are going to get the same level of service regardless of whether you are or are not a tipper? Anyone ever been to a restaurant where they are served by the same waiter and have treated the waiter well in the past where the waiter brings you out a special little starter that the "chef has put together" or otherwise does something a little extra? Ever notice that it is easier to get the bartender's attention at a crowded bar after you have left a tip on a prior round? It is not that complex folks, you treat people well and they will remember and it will frequently pay you dividends down the line. I guess if you only eat once at a restaurant, have one round of drinks at a bar, hunt with an outfit once and then move on, etc., tipping might not matter. Mike | |||
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OK Mike. Got you there. Do you tip all the staff including the owners of the restaurant? Like I said before, majority of us are not opposed to tipping, quite the opposite and we are just trying to make sense of it. Particularly you Mike and JPK have valid points and I agree with you on some and disagree on others. In the end it still makes us brothers in hunters guild and we can all come to common agreement and maybe one day solution. UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Just a good healthy debate. I appreciate that. Mike | |||
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I don't think the size of the tip should be governed by the "success" of the trip, that is if you equate "success" with the animals taken. I think the tip should be governed more by the quality of the experience and effort expended. I've tipped well on "unsuccessful" hunts; I guess that is my only point. Of course, if you are hunting in a good area, virtually every African safari is going to have some success. | |||
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I agree with the gauge being effort and not necessarily dead animals. But don't forget the rule, "The harder you work the luckier you get." Applies to the PH's effort and your success (as far as dead animals is concerned) on safari too! Free 500grains | |||
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I have absolutely nothing against tips. And I probably tend to over tip anyway for good service. But, I do get upset when I am expected to tip for a non-existence service, and I make no bones about making my feelings known. The example of being a regular in a restaurant is not really comparable to being on safari. Many people are put off by the "in your face" request for tips right at the hunt offer stage. And many people have to make plans to their hunt to be able to pay these tips. Why do outfitters even mention it if it is up to the client? We go to some restaurants that we like, both for their food and their service. They have a 15% service charge, but because we like the service, and have come to know the staff - we always get a table, no matter how busy their are - we always leave a cash tip for the staff. Going on safari can be a once in a life time event for someone. And if they have to take into consideration an additional sum that might go to several thousand dollars as tips, it is just not right. I have had lengthy messages from outfitters regarding this. On in particular mentioned the fact that he prefers that the tip is NOT given to the staff at the end of a hunt. He prefers to keep it, and pay them a lump sum at the end of the season when they go home. One of the reasons was that no two clients tip the same amount. Some don't even tip at all. He says his method tends to even things out, and he can have some control on his staff. As those who tend to drag their feet and under perform get less, and those who work harder get more. Another reason was mentioned that some hunters - I really got a laugh out of this one - tend to get "closer" to a certain member of the staff than others, and that member gets paid, but others don't! Some apparently only tip those they come into contact with - like trackers - and forget others who participate in making their safari an enjoyable occasion. | |||
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Thanks for that Saeed. I have a couple of issue here ... The outfitter / PH collecting all the tips and disbursing it at the end of the season can look like just paying wages - (ie) the client is actually subsidising the wages. The client then has no discretion on how his opinion & his cash is distributed. The second issue that really concerns me is the number of people in camp. I had originally planned a 7 day or 10 day buffalo hunt base on a total of 12 people. To me - on my first African trip - that is BIG number of people. Professional Hunter, Trackers (2), Driver, Camp manager, Skinner, Cook, Servers (2), Maids (2), Laundress Now I see people mentioning camp staff of 20! My stomach is already churning and my mouth is going dry. Will tip expectations be as much my air ticket? I am going to get a drink! It is Friday evening here!  "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Well, no matter how we look at it, the client IS subsidizing the wages. A member mentioned that he was given a list of 26 names of camp staff, and how much was recommended as their tips!! | |||
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It is early Friday morning here, so please have one for me! If you are in a remote DG camp the numbers will be low, relative to a camp located nearer civilization. Your count looks about right for a remote DG camp in my experience. Also the presence of women would be unusual. Normally the fellow who looks after your tent also does your laundry. The camps I have been in also only had one waiter. But there have always been a couple additional hands around handling different tasks as the arise. So, if anything your count looks about right. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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So, to put it in perspective. I have a future 21 day hunt that costs, $50,400 in day rates. If I use $100 per day for the PH and $100 for the camp as suggested above it comes to $4,200. If I use 10-15% that is $5,040 to $7,5060. If I use Martin Pieters guideline (%2,000 PH, $500 tracker team, $250 camp manager, $600 staff) then it is $3,450. Numbers, and expectations are all over the place. In the grand scheme of things if one includes the trophy fees, plane fare, taxes etc. even the 15% tip of $7,5060 is not a big line item. I think the bigger issue is that one is expected to tip even for bad service as part of the cost of the Safari because tips are expected to be part of the wages. I think a solution to that is to reserve a nominal amount to be a part of the cost. A guideline could be. 5% tip for showing up. 10% for good, but not exceptional service. 15%+ for excellent to fantastic service. This way one knows how much the tip will be based on one's own judgement. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting TIPS! The Subject Keeps Coming Up Frequently, Please Help.
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