Tips can be a interesting issue. Just came back from Kyrgyzstan. I failed to get a Marco Polo ram. Best opportunity was at 500 yards. The guides spooked a pair at 300 yards so my tip was less generous. The head guide still said thanks, but the assistant guide was rather unhappy and let me know about it. The tip was still way over a months working wage in Kyrg for most people.
Didn't feel that I got 100% effort for my hunt so that was also reflected in the tip. Had I killed a ram the tip would of been perhaps 3 times bigger. I often felt left out of conversations, especially in spike camp. Sometimes they would go on for hours and I was not included. Doesn't help me feel inclined to give a big tip. Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Macs B:

quote:

How do hunters from different countries tip?

Tipping is primarily based on US food service norms. I know for a fact that Europeans, Australians, Asians and consumers everywhere else don't tip the same as US for sit down food service.

Do non US hunters tip the same?

I can't speak for all non-US hunters, but my German friends do not tip as a rule. The Austrians and Swiss may tip but rarely, as for the others, it really comes own to a personal preference and how much drink one has consumed.

If one were to leave a small amount for someone, it would be far less than the amounts mentioned here. I think tipping is a great incentive, but it is not universally accepted. I know I have rarely received tips on guided hunts in Germany, though I have been tipped for providing tracking dog services to hunters.

My issue is I do not see two different rates - a tip or service charge included and tipping/no service charge daily hunting rate.

If non-us hunters don't tip as part of their culture/local business practice. I don't expect them to go on hunting in Africa and all of sudden start tipping cause US hunters tip.

I just hunted in a French colony and was provided a tipping schedule that no French man in his right mind would ever tip.

I am just wondering if we have taken an American practice of restaurant tipping where staff is paid less than the minimum wage on firm expectations of tip moved it to a $25-$100K hunt.

The other question is as we go on hunts where the daily rate approaches $1000 and above what is included in the daily rate. Is the outfitter not paying fair economic wages to staff. In the US restaurant model wait staff is not paid an fair economic wage (and I don't mean minium wage by that) but they choose to work there on expectation that majority of their income is received from tips.

I just find this whole tipping thing troublesome where I am supposed to tip everyone from camp gardener to the game ranger on government job. What does my daily rate cover ?

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

I know that if a hunter did not tip the trackers after a hunt, he made up for it out of his own pocket, though not to the extent of the average tip they might have received.

Commonly called wages in most of the rest of the world. IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

I know that if a hunter did not tip the trackers after a hunt, he made up for it out of his own pocket, though not to the extent of the average tip they might have received.

Commonly called wages in most of the rest of the world. IMO.

John,

He also paid them wages. But, as I wrote, more than half of their income was in tips. Seems like a good proportion of those hunting DG in Zim are rewarding good trackers for their effort and dedication to the hunt's success.

But have it your way, include average tips into the daily rate so that tips are called wages and are pre paid despite the level of performance, enthusiasm, attitude, effort. The daily rate will sky rocket, and I will still reward via tips for outstanding effort, service and performance, and the PH's, trackers and staff will still look forward to my return, and yours not so much, as great guy and as fine a hunter as you might be.

And when it comes to selecting the prime safari dates, don't think the operators, who need to keep their people happy, haven't had an earful on who and when as well as who not and never.

JPK

JPK, I don't think most of us are not against tipping per say, just against excessive expectations, which according to this forum seems to be rather norm.
Where does it stop? Where is the limits of amounts where it becomes burden?
I really don't mind it to a point.
But it would be rather nice if everyone was satisfied with what they get paid per hunt and maybe then get a tip but not expecting it?
I also realize it is human nature ...

Boarkiller,

I understand your concerns, but I don't think a couple or several thousand bucks worth of tips for a two or three week DG safari is excessive.

Moreover, a huge portion our system - pretty much the whole portion of our system that that works worth a crap - is based on incentive pay. Christmas or annual bonuses, commissioned sales for homes, cars and trucks, services, stocks and bonds, merit pay, piece work (as opposed to hourly pay,) our own tipping systems in various areas - restaurant, bar, the charter fishing industry I cited, the hunting industry, the list goes on and on and on.

Tipping is just a form of incentive based or merit pay, but better, because the individual most directly effected has the cash in his hand for immediate distribution, or not, following the delivery of services. Very direct reward or punishment.

JPK

* If you are opposed to tipping, stop.
* If you find tipping offensive, stop.
* If tipping makes you uncomfortable, stop.
* If you are offended Americans tip and Kiwis do not, stop.
* If you believe current tipping is excessive, reduce your tips.
* If you find tipping guides shared by outfitters offensive, ignore them.
* If you think everyone in camp including the PH is paid well enough, shake their hands when you leave.
* If you believe tipping should be rolled into daily rates, agree with your outfitter to pay a higher daily rate in lieu of tipping.

Why do some people feel that a one-size-fits-all approach is what is appropriate? Some of us are just fine with things just as they are.

When you outfitter gives you a tipping schedule is that a "one-size-fits-all" approach? More like "one-size fits-all-Americans". I doubt the Europeans get the same tipping schedule as the Americans.

Also I seriously doubt you will get your trophies in any respectable condition if you withhold tips as an American. The same expectation will not hold for Europeans.

Just get tiring after a while walking around with a sign saying "Stupid American Bearing Gifts"

Tipping is like local business custom. Don't tip in a pub in London. Tip in Zim and other American centric hunting destinations. Be careful not to be the American Bearing Gifts elsewhere.

Just my 2 cents,

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
* If you are opposed to tipping, stop.
* If you find tipping offensive, stop.
* If tipping makes you uncomfortable, stop.
* If you are offended Americans tip and Kiwis do not, stop.
* If you believe current tipping is excessive, reduce your tips.
* If you find tipping guides shared by outfitters offensive, ignore them.
* If you think everyone in camp including the PH is paid well enough, shake their hands when you leave.
* If you believe tipping should be rolled into daily rates, agree with your outfitter to pay a higher daily rate in lieu of tipping.

Why do some people feel that a one-size-fits-all approach is what is appropriate? Some of us are just fine with things just as they are.

Good Post Mike Jines...

One need to be flexible in there safari to be successful.

Usually and i do go over tipping with my PH.

I have a pool of money and it is divided by all parties involved.
Individuals to think about:
1. PH
2. Tracker
3. Skinner
4. Cook
5. Laundry
6. Camp person
7. Second tracker
8. Second PH
9. Water person who backpacks the water on your long stalks. Some days he is priceless.

The night before leaving camp i sit down with the PH and we go over each person and divide up the money.

I always make a thank you card and include the money in the card when it is passed out.

If the PH and i are talking prior to the safari i will find out how many persons will be attending me and be guided.

sometimes i will bring a pair of shoes and socks for he tracker. Usually a tooth brush and paste along with a bar or 2 of soap. A ball cap and so on.

I do know that on one such safari we passed out the tip and items the night before. We were leaving camp at 0430 to make it to the airport to leave the next day. That last day prior to leaving the cook had made coffee and asked what we would like for breakfast. instead of instant coffee and toast and jam.

Her tip included the following:
$85
2 women's shirts 2 different colors and her size. cost $12.00
2 bars of soap - women's fragrance Cost $2.00
1 box of rock candy Cost $5.00
1 pack of gum
1 small bottle of hand lotion cost $1.00
1 small bottle of hair shampoo Cost $1.00
1 tooth brush and crest toothpaste Cost $1.00

You would have thought the thank you and send of we received from her out of this world. You see i found out that most hunters do not tip, or tip very little.

I was the exception i was told.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
When you outfitter gives you a tipping schedule is that a "one-size-fits-all" approach? More like "one-size fits-all-Americans". I doubt the Europeans get the same tipping schedule as the Americans.

Also I seriously doubt you will get your trophies in any respectable condition if you withhold tips as an American. The same expectation will not hold for Europeans.

Just get tiring after a while walking around with a sign saying "Stupid American Bearing Gifts"

Tipping is like local business custom. Don't tip in a pub in London. Tip in Zim and other American centric hunting destinations. Be careful not to be the American Bearing Gifts elsewhere.

Just my 2 cents,

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
* If you are opposed to tipping, stop.
* If you find tipping offensive, stop.
* If tipping makes you uncomfortable, stop.
* If you are offended Americans tip and Kiwis do not, stop.
* If you believe current tipping is excessive, reduce your tips.
* If you find tipping guides shared by outfitters offensive, ignore them.
* If you think everyone in camp including the PH is paid well enough, shake their hands when you leave.
* If you believe tipping should be rolled into daily rates, agree with your outfitter to pay a higher daily rate in lieu of tipping.

Why do some people feel that a one-size-fits-all approach is what is appropriate? Some of us are just fine with things just as they are.

So let's see, I guess that puts you in the category of I am opposed to tipping, I disagree with tipping, I feel like am being abused and singled out as an American tipping, but I do it anyway because it is easier to go along to get along?

No Mike - it means I don't like getting hustled or scammed or forced for a tip. I don't like my trophies being subjects to a tip for delivery.

I don't like or tolerate government officials - namely game scouts demanding tips or more correctly bribes and subjecting me to US Foreign Corruption Act.

I don't like being given tip schedules in which other hunters have inflated tips for violating game law.

I like to tip the gardner in camp.

So I guess you guessed wrong

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
When you outfitter gives you a tipping schedule is that a "one-size-fits-all" approach? More like "one-size fits-all-Americans". I doubt the Europeans get the same tipping schedule as the Americans.

Also I seriously doubt you will get your trophies in any respectable condition if you withhold tips as an American. The same expectation will not hold for Europeans.

Just get tiring after a while walking around with a sign saying "Stupid American Bearing Gifts"

Tipping is like local business custom. Don't tip in a pub in London. Tip in Zim and other American centric hunting destinations. Be careful not to be the American Bearing Gifts elsewhere.

Just my 2 cents,

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
* If you are opposed to tipping, stop.
* If you find tipping offensive, stop.
* If tipping makes you uncomfortable, stop.
* If you are offended Americans tip and Kiwis do not, stop.
* If you believe current tipping is excessive, reduce your tips.
* If you find tipping guides shared by outfitters offensive, ignore them.
* If you think everyone in camp including the PH is paid well enough, shake their hands when you leave.
* If you believe tipping should be rolled into daily rates, agree with your outfitter to pay a higher daily rate in lieu of tipping.

Why do some people feel that a one-size-fits-all approach is what is appropriate? Some of us are just fine with things just as they are.

So let's see, I guess that puts you in the category of I am opposed to tipping, I disagree with tipping, I feel like am being abused and singled out as an American tipping, but I do it anyway because it is easier to go along to get along?

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
No Mike - it means I don't like getting hustled or scammed or forced for a tip. I don't like my trophies being subjects to a tip for delivery.

I don't like or tolerate government officials - namely game scouts demanding tips or more correctly bribes and subjecting me to US Foreign Corruption Act.

I don't like being given tip schedules in which other hunters have inflated tips for violating game law.

I like to tip the gardner in camp.

So I guess you guessed wrong

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
When you outfitter gives you a tipping schedule is that a "one-size-fits-all" approach? More like "one-size fits-all-Americans". I doubt the Europeans get the same tipping schedule as the Americans.

Also I seriously doubt you will get your trophies in any respectable condition if you withhold tips as an American. The same expectation will not hold for Europeans.

Just get tiring after a while walking around with a sign saying "Stupid American Bearing Gifts"

Tipping is like local business custom. Don't tip in a pub in London. Tip in Zim and other American centric hunting destinations. Be careful not to be the American Bearing Gifts elsewhere.

Just my 2 cents,

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
* If you are opposed to tipping, stop.
* If you find tipping offensive, stop.
* If tipping makes you uncomfortable, stop.
* If you are offended Americans tip and Kiwis do not, stop.
* If you believe current tipping is excessive, reduce your tips.
* If you find tipping guides shared by outfitters offensive, ignore them.
* If you think everyone in camp including the PH is paid well enough, shake their hands when you leave.
* If you believe tipping should be rolled into daily rates, agree with your outfitter to pay a higher daily rate in lieu of tipping.

Why do some people feel that a one-size-fits-all approach is what is appropriate? Some of us are just fine with things just as they are.

So let's see, I guess that puts you in the category of I am opposed to tipping, I disagree with tipping, I feel like am being abused and singled out as an American tipping, but I do it anyway because it is easier to go along to get along?

You need to improve the quality of the folks you hunt with . . . if you are worried about being scammed or forced to tip, having to tip to get your trophies, paying bribes to game scouts and the like your problem is not tipping, your problem is who you are hunting with.

There is always gonna be differences in everything including tipping.
Still think it is an excellent subject to discuss because of the fact that we all come from different backgrounds and different financial situations , but we all love to hunt and that is our common denominator and that makes us close.
That should also get us closer to common ground, despite the differences.

It seems not many like this as it stands.

Even more so when some in the business tend to go over board about their recommendations on tips.

The one that keeps coming up is the high percentage that goes to the PH.

A PH is normally paid between 100-250 a day, so why is he recommending he gets paid 100-200 a day as tip??

I have gathered quite a bit of information, but have not decided what format I am going to post it all in.

Apparently some hunters from Europe do not tip much.

Why should they?

They have paid, in full, for a hunt, and they don't see any point in paying any more, as they don't at home.

I know there is that "when in Rome do as the Romans" bit.

But it seems a lot of hunters are getting rather too much of this tipping business.

Some mentioned they find it rather sad to see it mentioned on outfitter's websites - juts to make sure one does not forget it.

Saeed,

Two comments:
1. I have never had a PH recommend a tip to himself.
2. A mention of typical tipping on a website acts to remove surprise or shock from the hunter. He can choose to hunt with another outfit if he doesn't like the notice.

I am surprised that more hunters don't ask advice of their booking agents when they set up the hunt. And surprised that they're surprised when they are in camp.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Saeed,

Two comments:
1. I have never had a PH recommend a tip to himself.
2. A mention of typical tipping on a website acts to remove surprise or shock from the hunter. He can choose to hunt with another outfit if he doesn't like the notice.

I am surprised that more hunters don't ask advice of their booking agents when they set up the hunt. And surprised that they're surprised when they are in camp.

JPK

Apparently many hunter do get a recommendations, as they ask what is expected.

And although no specific amount might be mentioned, they are told that "normally" it is $X for the PH.

I think many people have been candid in private, rather than post all the sad details on the forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:
"I consider all my staff equal except PH And Cook, So what ever amount he gives I divide equally to the staff"

I think this practice is great.

How do you quantify a fair tip for a gunbearer who risks his life in the frontline of every wounded DG follow-up armed with just a machete? Usually, having no other "skill", their per diem is driven by the market and often hangs around $10 - $15 per day(In Tz)!

What about your skinner who finds himself working on your trophies well past midnight when you return at dark and offload your days successes? His work is critical to the memoryof the hunt. He too earns between $8 and $12 per day.


Personally, i would say they are right up there in the pecking order.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:
"I consider all my staff equal except PH And Cook, So what ever amount he gives I divide equally to the staff"

I think this practice is great.

How do you quantify a fair tip for a gunbearer who risks his life in the frontline of every wounded DG follow-up armed with just a machete? Usually, having no other "skill", their per diem is driven by the market and often hangs around $10 - $15 per day(In Tz)!

What about your skinner who finds himself working on your trophies well past midnight when you return at dark and offload your days successes? His work is critical to the memoryof the hunt. He too earns between $8 and $12 per day.


Personally, i would say they are right up there in the pecking order.

Mich,

Why don't safari operators offer their gunbearers and skinners a fair pay to the job they are doing then?

What would be considered a fair tip from a man who has worked hard and saved up for several years to enjoy a hunt of a lifetime, as compared with someone who hunts every year?

[/QUOTE]

How do you quantify a fair tip for a gunbearer who risks his life in the frontline of every wounded DG follow-up armed with just a machete? Usually, having no other "skill", their per diem is driven by the market and often hangs around $10 - $15 per day(In Tz)!

What about your skinner who finds himself working on your trophies well past midnight when you return at dark and offload your days successes? His work is critical to the memoryof the hunt. He too earns between $8 and $12 per day.

Personally, i would say they are right up there in the pecking order.[/QUOTE]



With the unemployment rates in Africa as high as it is general workers (skinners, trackers, camp staff should be great full that they have a job, $8 to $12 per day is a good income if you ask me,

this is par with the agricultural minimum wages is South Africa.


The Outfitters should set there tipping criteria as a % of their daily wages, as a client I am sick of being put in a corner when it comes to tipping staff.

Up to now I have always tipped the staff $100 per day as a group, most camps have between 8 to 10 staff members so if we had to thumb suck the outfitters labour cost per day it would be between $120 to $150 per day for his camp and hunting staff.

So I would be tipping them around 75% of their daily wages each, this is just wrong.

I would be more than happy to tip any crew 15 % to 20 % of his Daily wages.


JK

JK

If that principle is extended to Tanzania (assuming the staff wages are a bit higher) I would suspect that the outfitters make real BIG money / profits that are comparable with Western living standards but they pay their staff 3rd world wages! I suppose that is like most international businesses around the world.

Then I look at the Aussie / NZ scenario and note that you do not have as many staff and helpers around. The outfitter pays a local / Western wage and yet this "new" trend of tipping is creeping in! In this scenario I am convinced that some guys (not all) are creaming it with jam and tropical fruit on top, with champagne and caviar on the side! To be fair - this is basically with US clients.

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:

How do you quantify a fair tip for a gunbearer who risks his life in the frontline of every wounded DG follow-up armed with just a machete? Usually, having no other "skill", their per diem is driven by the market and often hangs around $10 - $15 per day(In Tz)!

What about your skinner who finds himself working on your trophies well past midnight when you return at dark and offload your days successes? His work is critical to the memoryof the hunt. He too earns between $8 and $12 per day.

Personally, i would say they are right up there in the pecking order.[/QUOTE]



With the unemployment rates in Africa as high as it is general workers (skinners, trackers, camp staff should be great full that they have a job, $8 to $12 per day is a good income if you ask me,

this is par with the agricultural minimum wages is South Africa.


The Outfitters should set there tipping criteria as a % of their daily wages, as a client I am sick of being put in a corner when it comes to tipping staff.

Up to now I have always tipped the staff $100 per day as a group, most camps have between 8 to 10 staff members so if we had to thumb suck the outfitters labour cost per day it would be between $120 to $150 per day for his camp and hunting staff.

So I would be tipping them around 75% of their daily wages each, this is just wrong.

I would be more than happy to tip any crew 15 % to 20 % of his Daily wages.


JK[/QUOTE]

Your post basically reflects the majority of opinions, especially what is paid to the PH being such a high percentage of his daily rate.

Suggestions were made that a certain percentage 10-15% of the daily rate of a plains game hunt is fine.

But, the same percentage of a DG hunt is rather high.

Hi Naki

I agree and whenever we go hunting we fall into this tipping rut,

The principle comes down to the fact that clients seem to be subsidising the Outfitters staff wages,

Where have you ever seen a situation that people are tipped almost the same as their daily wages,

On my last Safari in March to Tanzania I worked out that after our group left camp each staff member made more per day in Tips than what I pay my Truck Drivers in South Africa per day,


I am off to Cameroon in May and already I am more caught up with the fact that I know I will be expected to leave a substantial tip.

JK

Morning Saeed

From what I have learnt in Tanzania a DG PH makes about $350 to $400 per day so his income on let’s say a 14 day hunt is $4900,

I have no issue at all tipping him up to 20% of his income on my Safari, so this would be just shy of $1000

But I feel robbed when I have to tip him 10% or 15% of the day rates charged on a $45 000 Safari
JK

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
...
How do you quantify a fair tip for a gunbearer who risks his life in the frontline of every wounded DG follow-up armed with just a machete? Usually, having no other "skill", their per diem is driven by the market and often hangs around $10 - $15 per day(In Tz)!

What about your skinner who finds himself working on your trophies well past midnight when you return at dark and offload your days successes? His work is critical to the memoryof the hunt. He too earns between $8 and $12 per day.
...

I was recently quoted a day rate of USD 2,400/day on a 21 day Zambezi hunt for Lion, Leopard, Tuskless, and Rhino plus trophy fees of course.

So, you are telling me that I also have to pay the salaries of people working the hunt as well? However, Europeans do not have to as it is not expected of them?

I prefer the Club Med approach where all is included, and I know where I stand as far as costs from the start.

quote:

Mich,

Why don't safari operators offer their gunbearers and skinners a fair pay to the job they are doing then?

In the pay hierarchy, they are second to the camp supervisor and at par with the Head Chef. If one were to double their pay, one would need to double the pay of the hierarchy above which then skews the whole system as the pay for most of the other positions (eg cook, supervisor) is set by market demand.

I found that a lot of the tipping culture has been generationally transferred down. For eg, when I broke into the hunting industry, camp staff tips were comparable, in percentage and ratio terms, 20 years ago as they are today. How it all started? We would need to ask the likes of Hemingway, Percival and the rest of the trophy hunting pioneers

quote:

What would be considered a fair tip from a man who has worked hard and saved up for several years to enjoy a hunt of a lifetime, as compared with someone who hunts every year?

Each one should and would be different. the important thing is to understand that tipping is discretionary and whatever amount appreciated. Many PHs and Operators find dealing with the tips issue just as ackward I suspect.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
... the important thing is to understand that tipping is discretionary and whatever amount appreciated. Many PHs and Operators find dealing with the tips issue just as ackward I suspect.

Actually, the problem most are having is that it does not seem to be discretionary at all, but expected as part of the overall cost of the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Hi Naki

...
The principle comes down to the fact that clients seem to be subsidising the Outfitters staff wages,

Where have you ever seen a situation that people are tipped almost the same as their daily wages,

...

JK

Yes, tipping is subsidizing the staff wages.

If you remove tipping then the "subsidy" moves to the daily rate.

In the end hunters will, in aggregate, pay the same. However, when you remove tipping you have removed the direct incentive pay element, the reward for superior service, effort, attitude and the punishment for laziness and indifference and you can expect service level to drop.

Industries where tipping makes up MORE than daily wages, charter fishing off the US Mid Atlantic coast, and off of Fla, Mexico's east coast, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Hunting in South America, some hunting in the US, restaurants and bars in at least major cities in the US. And that is a list of industries I am familiar with off hand.

Then we go to "incentive pay" which is just tipping - about every CEO of every major international corporation, whose performance pay and bonuses far top their salaries.

Go to "almost the same as their daily wages" and that would include many executive below CEO and include many upper and mid level executives of mid size corporations. Take me for example. My incentive pay has always been a major factor in my compensation, at times a majority of it.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
...
In the end hunters will, in aggregate, pay the same. However, when you remove tipping you have removed the direct incentive pay element, the reward for superior service, effort, attitude and the punishment for laziness and indifference and you can expect service level to drop.

... Take me for example. My incentive pay has always been a major factor in my compensation, at times a majority of it.

JPK

Yes, and no.

First, I'd expect a certain level of performance from my employees regardless of the bonus structure. Those that do not measure up to the standards no longer work for me.

Yes, I also pay a bonus based on performance. But, that is totally based one's overall performance.

If I were the outfitter I'd set a daily rate, where a portion of the rate going to a bonus pool. Based on feedback from the clients (via comment cards etc.), I'd dole out the bonuses to the workers. (I actually do that for my employees, but it is based on metrics rather than comment cards).

That rewards the superior service and punishes for laziness and indifference.

And, the client knows exactly how much he is paying.

I think some of you have hit on a very valid point, that is that our/your European brothers are not subsidizing the daily wages of the hunt staff like their American counterparts. To assume that the price will increase across the board if tipping is reduced might be true. Consider this, several outfitters who cater to the European hunter are price competitive with the American outfitters. I've witnessed this first hand while on safari with my German group as compared to hunting on my own arrangements. The subject of tipping was never raised while hunting with a European party, period. Never discussed or implied. Two similar trips with two very different expectations.

quote:

Industries where tipping makes up MORE than daily wages, charter fishing off the US Mid Atlantic coast, and off of Fla, Mexico's east coast, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Hunting in South America, some hunting in the US, restaurants and bars in at least major cities in the US. And that is a list of industries I am familiar with off hand.

Then thee are the places I would avoid at any cost!

Wow, if this gets into the hunting industry, I will pack my rifles and give up hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
...
In the end hunters will, in aggregate, pay the same. However, when you remove tipping you have removed the direct incentive pay element, the reward for superior service, effort, attitude and the punishment for laziness and indifference and you can expect service level to drop.

... Take me for example. My incentive pay has always been a major factor in my compensation, at times a majority of it.

JPK

Yes, and no.

First, I'd expect a certain level of performance from my employees regardless of the bonus structure. Those that do not measure up to the standards no longer work for me.

Yes, I also pay a bonus based on performance. But, that is totally based one's overall performance.

If I were the outfitter I'd set a daily rate, where a portion of the rate going to a bonus pool. Based on feedback from the clients (via comment cards etc.), I'd dole out the bonuses to the workers. (I actually do that for my employees, but it is based on metrics rather than comment cards).

That rewards the superior service and punishes for laziness and indifference.

And, the client knows exactly how much he is paying.

Anyone who runs a business will expect a minimum level of service from their employees. And we all know that some managers are better than others, and that remains the same with or without tipping.

Bonus pools based on metrics have their plusses and minuses. The main minus is that there are always some riding on the backs of others. Based on customer feedback, well that is not much different than tipping, eh? Except for two important elements: 1. a tip is immediate rather than delayed; 2. the employer makes the decision rather than the customer. As the customer, I want to make the decision.

If the daily rate includes money for a tip pool or bonus pool, the ability of the customer to reward or punish is removed, but the cost to the customer is more or less the same. How is that a win for the customer?

Any customer can know the maximum cost he will pay, including tips. Just factor in the cost of tipping when adding up the cost of the safari. None of the recommendations made are secret, heck, all of that is available here, now. (Though Saeed's compilation might make finding the info easier) and every booking agent knows what an expected level of tipping is.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Industries where tipping makes up MORE than daily wages, charter fishing off the US Mid Atlantic coast, and off of Fla, Mexico's east coast, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Hunting in South America, some hunting in the US, restaurants and bars in at least major cities in the US. And that is a list of industries I am familiar with off hand.

Then thee are the places I would avoid at any cost!

Wow, if this gets into the hunting industry, I will pack my rifles and give up hunting.

Please explain why you are against performance based compensation.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Macs B:
I think some of you have hit on a very valid point, that is that our/your European brothers are not subsidizing the daily wages of the hunt staff like their American counterparts. To assume that the price will increase across the board if tipping is reduced might be true. Consider this, several outfitters who cater to the European hunter are price competitive with the American outfitters. I've witnessed this first hand while on safari with my German group as compared to hunting on my own arrangements. The subject of tipping was never raised while hunting with a European party, period. Never discussed or implied. Two similar trips with two very different expectations.

An example of why tipping is good for American customers, even if not practiced by others:
I was trying to schedule a hunt with an outfit I had hunted with before, lead time was short, the hunt was for a couple of months later. The dates that worked for me we in conflict with those desired by a couple of hunters from a country where tipping is not practiced, I don't now recall if it was Australians or Europeans or others. The fellow I was working with to book the hunt assured me I would get the dates if it came down to neither side being able to adjust their schedules since I tipped and the other party wouldn't.

I got the dates.

Was the exclusive reason because I am an American and expected to tip, or that I had tipped well on my previous hunt, or just that I was a repeat customer (I do not know whether the other party was repeat or not?) I don't know, all I know is that I hunted when I wanted to, and the other party didn't.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Hi Naki

...
The principle comes down to the fact that clients seem to be subsidising the Outfitters staff wages,

Where have you ever seen a situation that people are tipped almost the same as their daily wages,

...

JK

Yes, tipping is subsidizing the staff wages.

If you remove tipping then the "subsidy" moves to the daily rate.

In the end hunters will, in aggregate, pay the same. However, when you remove tipping you have removed the direct incentive pay element, the reward for superior service, effort, attitude and the punishment for laziness and indifference and you can expect service level to drop.

Industries where tipping makes up MORE than daily wages, charter fishing off the US Mid Atlantic coast, and off of Fla, Mexico's east coast, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Hunting in South America, some hunting in the US, restaurants and bars in at least major cities in the US. And that is a list of industries I am familiar with off hand.

Then we go to "incentive pay" which is just tipping - about every CEO of every major international corporation, whose performance pay and bonuses far top their salaries.

Go to "almost the same as their daily wages" and that would include many executive below CEO and include many upper and mid level executives of mid size corporations. Take me for example. My incentive pay has always been a major factor in my compensation, at times a majority of it.

JPK

Yes and no

Bonuses has come to be like tipping. It's expected and grumbling is expected if none are forthcoming. As a shareholder of a small business, the last few years has been leaner than most. When the subject of reduced or no bonus has been discussed, as the shareholders had to endure, it has been shot down due to employee expectations. Thought was the employees don't make as much as we do and they depend on the bonus. Thought was the bonus was an incentive, now it has become wage. Psychologically, employees can not separate the two any longer. Don't think about changing it. It's like waiting for their tax refund every year, they don't realize that they have been giving the IRS an interest free loan. They think it's a "bonus" from the IRS.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Industries where tipping makes up MORE than daily wages, charter fishing off the US Mid Atlantic coast, and off of Fla, Mexico's east coast, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Hunting in South America, some hunting in the US, restaurants and bars in at least major cities in the US. And that is a list of industries I am familiar with off hand.

Then thee are the places I would avoid at any cost!

Wow, if this gets into the hunting industry, I will pack my rifles and give up hunting.

Please explain why you are against performance based compensation.

JPK

The idea of having to pay a "tip" which exceeds the price of a service is abhorrent to me.

I want to know what I am paying for, and how much, before hand.

JPK

The big difference in your scenario is that these are not your senior management level of people of CEO of a global world class company.

We are talking about general labourers in a 3rd world country with unemployment rates as high as 40% to 60%.

The outfitters are paying a decent salary to them so why go and pay a Tip bigger that what they earn on a day to day basis, all you are doing is creating a problem for yourself into the future,
Soon you will have all the staff belonging to unions and demanding wages that are not realistic for the outfitters to pay,

I live in Africa and all my Business endeavours are here if I had to start tipping all 5000 employees of mine just for doing their job that they are paid well for then our whole economy will start to suffer,

I am all for incentive bonus schemes and run many of them, and all are based on a reasonable % of their annual income.
JK

Do I sense a tipping revolt on AR? will we get hunt offers with increased daily rates? Will AR hunters be classified as "European" hunters when we arrive in camp? Inquiring minds want to know!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Industries where tipping makes up MORE than daily wages, charter fishing off the US Mid Atlantic coast, and off of Fla, Mexico's east coast, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Hunting in South America, some hunting in the US, restaurants and bars in at least major cities in the US. And that is a list of industries I am familiar with off hand.

Then thee are the places I would avoid at any cost!

Wow, if this gets into the hunting industry, I will pack my rifles and give up hunting.

Please explain why you are against performance based compensation.

JPK

The idea of having to pay a "tip" which exceeds the price of a service is abhorrent to me.

I want to know what I am paying for, and how much, before hand.

The price of the service (mating duties) = any compensation paid by the operator plus the tip.

You can know the what you are paying for and, if performance warrants it, the maximum you will pay for it, before hand.

For example, a mate on a charter fishing boat in same places may not be paid anything by the boat. He works for tips. The expected tip for journeyman or yoemanlike performance is widely known by those who fish a lot, and readily determined by those who do not, prior to engaging the boat. The maximum cost for the boat for the day is known, it equals the daily rate for the boat plus the expected tip to the mate. If performance falls short, so does the tip and the cost of the trip.

Nothing much different with a safari, or dinner down the street here.

Again, please explain why you are against performance based compensation.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Industries where tipping makes up MORE than daily wages, charter fishing off the US Mid Atlantic coast, and off of Fla, Mexico's east coast, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Hunting in South America, some hunting in the US, restaurants and bars in at least major cities in the US. And that is a list of industries I am familiar with off hand.

Then thee are the places I would avoid at any cost!

Wow, if this gets into the hunting industry, I will pack my rifles and give up hunting.

Please explain why you are against performance based compensation.

JPK

The idea of having to pay a "tip" which exceeds the price of a service is abhorrent to me.

I want to know what I am paying for, and how much, before hand.

I'd be interested to know if you've gleaned any reasons that outfitters have offered as to why some advice tipping the PH as much as what they pay the PH as a per Diem.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Industries where tipping makes up MORE than daily wages, charter fishing off the US Mid Atlantic coast, and off of Fla, Mexico's east coast, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Hunting in South America, some hunting in the US, restaurants and bars in at least major cities in the US. And that is a list of industries I am familiar with off hand.

Then thee are the places I would avoid at any cost!

Wow, if this gets into the hunting industry, I will pack my rifles and give up hunting.

Please explain why you are against performance based compensation.

JPK

The idea of having to pay a "tip" which exceeds the price of a service is abhorrent to me.

I want to know what I am paying for, and how much, before hand.

I'd be interested to know if you've gleaned any reasons that outfitters have offered as to why some advice tipping the PH as much as what they pay the PH as a per Diem.

Perhaps to emphasize performance based compensation.

When as much as 50% of a PH's compensation for THAT trip is based on his performance THAT trip, it is strong incentive to turn in an excellent performance, THAT trip.

Or written the way I prefer: When as much - or more - than 50% of a PH's compensation is based on MY evaluation of his performance on MY safari, it is strong incentive for the PH to turn in an excellent performance on MY safari.

JPK