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One of Us |
It is trashy, but it seems to be something that happens regularly. I have started not tipping if they ask. | |||
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| one of us |
I have pondered sharing this story of tipping in general. I was on safari with Pierre van Tonder last August. I know that tips are expected but never in my wildest imagination did I expect what happened on this safari. Because it is expected, I budget for it upon planning a safari. I am a person on a fixed income now so I plan what I can afford and it generally amounts to $2,000.00 or so depending upon the amount of staff present. Well, the night before the end of the safari, the night that gives one some stress when talking about the tipping structure, I cornered Pierre and talked to him about what I had budgeted and I informed him that it was my custom to tip the PH $100.00 per day and the rest that I budget would be divided among the staff. Pierre told me flat out that he did not expect a tip and asked me simply to take care of his staff. I could not believe that Pierre just walked away from $700.00 I sat down with Pierre and divided up the total budgeted among the staff. I have to say, this was the most memorable experience (a damn good one) that I have experienced in tipping. I have had a couple of miserable experiences, but most worked out well. Gracias, Hoot | |||
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Hoot, I'm sure in the overall scheme of things it was far more important to Pierre to make sure his crew felt taken care of than putting $700 in his pocket. Smart operator. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Every professional hunter worth his salts would have said the same. In fact, I have had this said to me numerous times. | |||
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Not all Professional Hunters are outfitters. In this case Pierre (outfitter) was also doubling up as the PH and had already made his buck on his charges to the client; did not have to rely on the $700 as a tip for his services and was gracious enough to request the amount be added to the crew tip. | |||
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If we use the same standards, all employees are being paid wages already taken care of in the original charge to the client. Apparently there companies which suggest a 15-20% of the TOTAL coast as being required as tips! If any company says that to me, I will tell them to take a bloody hike, and never deal with them. We keep saying it, a tip is a show of appreciation for a job well done. Not an expected bribe. | |||
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.........................................................Bold above Absolutely true!! ....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I think the 'tips' should be built into the price of the hunt. In other words the cost of labour falls on the employer (hunting outfit) and just like in business that cost is passed onto the customer (me the hunter). If the employee is not working to expectations it is for the employer to manage that not me as the client being the bag of gold at the end of the rainbow, a carrot to encourage service if you will. If it were run like this I would gladly tip the staff that went above and beyond and not all staff in camp. Obviously there are those behind the scene (cleaners etc) that the client does not see during their day to day and that may cause some question of fairness, but it should not be on me as the client to recify this, this is the employers duty not mine. My 2 cents Cheers Stu | |||
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Tips should NOT be built into the hunt. There are many many posts in these 22 pages which clearly state that many European clients do not tip at all. In NZ we do not have a tipping culture as we have a minimum wage of almost $16 per hour & $23 per hour if working over 40 hours a week. The problem is the greed of some operators and the American system of paying up to 25% tips in some cases. There are many many posts pointing out how much (massive) profits the NZ operators make on farmed deer. They charge full daily rates and resort / lodge fees - ALL of which have fat profits included. Yet some of them want to get paid $1000 tips on top of everything! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I bet NZ outfitters love dumb ass Americans and hate locals and aussies. Nothing like getting something for nothing and chicks for free, to quote Dire Straights... Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Nakihunter You are correct, it is the tipping culture of some clients that has caused this, and if you peruse the NZ hunting operators the word 'gratuity' is not uncommon. Hey why not ride the gravy train if it is there. I feel that there is an obligation being unfairly placed on me the client to supliment the outfitter wages bill. Now you can do the 'european thing' but I am sure there will be a certain vibe around camp should you do this. No, I think the employer should pay the wage appropirate for the workers role in the company and if a tip is made by the client it is for service over and beyond. Cheers Stu | |||
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That is precisely what tipping is all about - wages and minimum wage scales differ from one country to another so I doubt the outfitter would stiff his workers on wages while there have been known cases of an outfitter stiffing on cumulative tips that clients have left for him to distribute. The client is therefore recommended to tip each recipient individually, from one hand to the other. | |||
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. . . well Saeed's effort to stir the pot certainly had the intended result.   Mike | |||
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Nothing to do with stirring the pot. I for one hate tips! Especially when they are expected. We travel a lot, and stay in many places, and I think we might even over tip. But, we do get very good services, and if any employee makes some remarks regarding his or her tip, they get nothing. As I said earlier, I consider a tip as a show of appreciation for something well done. We went fishing once, and the captain had a very prominently displayed sign saying “A 15-20% TIP IS NORMALLY EXPECTED” I did not pay a penny. He complained to a friend that I did not leave a tip. I told him to tell him if he did not have that obnoxious sign he would have gotten a tip. | |||
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Naki, Your post sounds like there is something wrong with the NZ deer operators making a good profit and receiving a tip too makes them horrible people? You know, I've actually been corresponding with some folks from your part of the world of late. They agree that tipping is not as ingrained in OZ and NZ as it is in NA but low and behold quite a few people do tip and I've been told nobody is offended by that particularly the recipients of the the tip. Cheers, Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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The problem with tipping in New Zealand is that its definately not part of our culture and many of us who live here see it as an insidious intrusion of American culture into our way of life. We like to think we are still our own culture but we are continually bombarded with film and tv and media fro the US that is changing our society , and those of us who are in the upper range of our life dont particularly like it . It would be a bit like when I come and visit the US all of you have to suddenly drive on the "other " side of the road to accomodate me . ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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Bombarded! Really? If you Kiwi’s, and the rest of the world for that matter, object to American culture so much; don’t buy it. We will go away. As for tipping on Safari; do what you want not what you think others expect. Personally, I have been very pleased with the service and competence of the staff and I reflected that in the tips I gave them personally. USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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One of my outfitters in Africa that I have used on four occasions has always asked that if I do tip (discretionary) (and he is gracious to give his advice on how much to tip-if I so choose to do-which advice has been surprisingly much lower than I expected), that I do so at the very end of the safari with everyone there and I hand out the tip (each in a separate sealed white envelope with the name) to the staff at that time. I have done this, feeling quite comfortable and have left camp knowing that I wasn't pressured to give a certain amount.  In the past with other PHs and outfitters, I've often experienced the hard sell pressure to give a certain amount, as that was what was expected, or to give all of the tips to them and they would later distribute them out, etc. etc. I was a fool for those tactics for too a long of a time.  | |||
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Mirrors my experiences. "Never, ever, book a hunt with Jeri Booth or Detail Company Adventures" | |||
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Mark, the people who tip are Americans and some tourists. Local Kiwis DO NOT TIP. We have had this debate here many times and the guides & operators dance around the issue merrily, not openly stating that they get a full fair wage at the upper end of the market! Yet they will hang around for tips as it is a huge bonus on top of the high wages they earn! I have used guides in NZ a few times. Once I gave a guide a small gift 23 years ago - a compact cleaning kit that he had never seen before! Not one guide or operator can justify tipping in NZ based on "it is part of our salary" like it is done in the service Industry in the US. It is dishonest to justify tipping (using US norms) in NZ as the wages are good wages. My 19 year old who has got a job as a Trade Assistant looking to get an apprenticeship earns $20 per hour and $30 if he works overtime / weekends! Hunting guides make a lot more than that. The trophy fees on the stags in NZ are ridiculous. Most of those animals would have a maximum market value of around $200 to $300 if just sold as livestock. You need to understand that hunting on public land is free for us Kiwis. But there are some unscrupulous operators who use all kinds of intimidation & corruption to try and block access to public land by controlling private property. Most large private properties adjoining public land have legal right of way. But the hunting operators will make if very hard for you to use it. Just check the old controversy of the Indonesian dictator's son and the huge station they owned. The manager and other hunting operators linked to that property were notorious for intimidating local hunters.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| One of Us |
So I'm not supposed to tip because it makes dealing with your own countrymen tricky? What exactly is the point here? I don't care what you think a Red Stag is worth...it's worth whatever I pay to shoot it. That's how it works....everywhere in the world, regardless of your "culture". Which BTW, is just code for being a cheap-ass. | |||
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| One of Us |
True, tipping is not basic to NZ culture but apart from Americans enjoying hunts in the tourist hunting industry I can't really see where our "culture" is threatened by it. In other activities ( e.g. sightseeing tours, soft outdoors activities ) I'm not sure that tipping is all that common by any foreign visitor. The trophy fees on the stags in NZ are ridiculous. Most of those animals would have a maximum market value of around $200 to $300 if just sold as livestock. It's not uncommon for trophy ( Red ) stags to be bought and released on big, fenced hunting estates. Having talked to the principals of a couple of these estates they pay much more than $200 - $300 for stags that will grow huge antlers.[i] Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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One of Us |
Last time I looked, tipping or not tipping is a PERSONAL CHOICE on the part of the client, NOT the PEANUT GALLERY! If an operator states in any discussions or in their literature that a tip is expected/required at a certain amount, don't book with that operator, that simple! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I'm glad someone made this point...thank you. | |||
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To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that visiting American hunters who decide to tip are in any sense "contaminating" our culture. To suggest otherwise is, I think, taking it a bit too far. If a tip is offered I presume the giver feels it has been earned. If the recipient is offended by the offer they have the option of politely declining. No threat to our "culture" that I can see. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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It is refreshing to see that some people actually can see the forest in spite of the trees. Just because someone offers a "Tip", no one is really under a mandate to accept it and just because one person accepts a tip that does not mean tipping is mandatory. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| One of Us |
It's not a threat...the term "culture" is being used as a shield for their own discomfort when confronted with a situation where they know the person they're dealing with routinely accepts tips from foreigners. Instead of just being comfortable with the way they normally do things. They lash out at Americans/foreigners for their discomfort. If "you" don't tip..then it's just that simple and you shouldn't worry about those that do. I spend no time worrying about non tippers, but they spend an awful lot of time worrying about us. | |||
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One of Us |
Great post & spot on I would say, Nakihunter is in fact a Indian & has a Indian culture, which is to pay as little as possible & get as much as possible (like a lot of us really) when I was in India ever body had there hand out for a tip, some getting very hostile if not receiving one, had to fight to keep my bags in my hands ! Strange how the general public have a opinion on what a Hunting Guide earns & how much work he does, when on the job it is 24/7 most of the time, could be a call for help at any hour & this after a full day & nights work ! | |||
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| One of Us |
Since tips are being actively discussed, I would like to get the forum's opinion. I am about to go on my fourth safari. Previous trips were all to Zim, this will be to South Africa, and this time my wife is accompanying me. All three previous trips involved dangerous game (buff, elephant, leopard), this one is plains game only. I trusted my PH on the previous trips to recommend who should be considered for a tip as well as how much. First trip I took his recommendation to the letter as it seemed fair. Second trip (bull elephant hunt) I followed the PH's advice for the camp staff (which actually included a decrease in one individual's tip as we both felt he was slacking) but increased the PH and trackers' tips as they worked their asses off for me. Third trip was on a ranch in the Save and there were a few more individuals to tip but since the accommodations were so much nicer I had no problem with whom and the amounts. The amounts that have been suggested to me for tips on the upcoming trip (I asked-they never mentioned tips) is about 20% less than before. My specific questions have to do with a videographer and a tour guide after the hunt (we are going to Kruger for about 7 days). My thinking is that they should be considered to be tipped at close to the same level as a plains game PH? Your opinions? "Never, ever, book a hunt with Jeri Booth or Detail Company Adventures" | |||
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I work with and around a lot of PHs. It would be shocking to most to see how little they tip for services rendered. As stated above, tipping is largely a cultural thing. African operators have figured out how to cash in on the culture of tipping. drj - There is no formula. Do what makes you feel good. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Sarge I am as much a Kiwi as anyone else. So don't you dare use my ethnicity to undermine my posts. Your tourist experience in India means nothing and is irrelevant to this post. You are using a racist argument to divert attention from the problem in the NZ hunting industry. The REAL PROBLEM is that some NZ guides expect a tip on top of good wages, which is not ethical. What are you really saying, as a hunting guide? Why not spell it out instead of distracting the discussion. Are you saying that it is ok for NZ hunting guides to expect a tip from overseas hunters? Are you saying that your guiding fees are not a fair wage by NZ norms?
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| One of Us |
Go Duke!! | |||
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| one of us |
Naki, Ethical for who? The only one it seems tipping is a problem for is you. if you hunt with a guide and don't tip that's fine and for the umpteenth time you just need to own it. Don't blame your self inflicted discomfort when you don't tip on a system you're not going to change. You seem to be an army of one. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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| One of Us |
I can't figure out the "ethics" part either... Once I agree to the price of the hunt, what my guide makes is really non of my business. He/She gets a tip based on performance and me receiving what I payed for I terms of the quality of the hunt...not whether I think they're wages were enough or not. | |||
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Mark Please read the several post about NZ hunting industry & tipping in the previous pages. Many others have posted in far stronger language than me. You are missing the point completely. I am definitely NOT an army of one. I am not trying to change the system. It is not about my discomfort. It is about the unethical conduct of some guides in NZ trying to corrupt OUR SYSTEM since they get to make extra bucks. You sound like Donald Trump now! 
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| Administrator |
That is not correct at all, and has nothing to do with ethics whatsoever. It all boils down to outfitters making it absolutely certain that you HAVE to tip. That is the part I do not like. Provide a service well and above what I have already paid for, and I am very happy to show my appreciation. Continue making hints about tips, and how terrible some past clients have been, and what a terrible life you are living to provide me with a hunt, and you will get one big fat ZERO as tip. I find it very annoying when an outfitter advertises a hunt and mentions the tip in it., making sure you do not forget about it. A tip is an option, it is not a requirement to the hunt like transport and lodging, dip and pack etc. Now I see that some outfitters are actually putting it in writing that 15-20% is expected as a tip. Good luck getting my business when I see that. | |||
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A PH I hunted with brings up the issue of tips on the first day. Politely suggesting a good tip for the staff and for him whatever I think appropriate. There it is, tipping is mandatory and expected. I still tip, but not with a joyous heart. I have been told from other PHs how much is expected for the tip, both in Zim and in Australia. It really takes the fun out of the process of showing appreciation. I would probably do more if the subject was not brought up until the last day, and brought up by me. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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100% Saeed 100% Cal A quick look down the page of Discounted African Hunts brings up the following: These are daily rates only - It does not include Trophy Fee or extras such as GVT Levy which is currently at 4% of daily rate and trophy fee, Transfers ($500/One way), Charters or gratuities The language reads "does not include" This suggests an expectation! Regards Stu | |||
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There has been a lot of discussion of tipping in India and tipping outside of US. Tipping in India is somewhat expected. However the amount is never the 15 floor plus US standard. In Africa the worst tippers (relative to us) outside of the hunting context I have seen are actually Zim Phs cause they are following local norms. I much rather tip people in India and Africa on US norms. I am not normally eating at fancy places and for me the tip at US standard has a meaningful impact to the person receiving it. As a rule I much rather overtip the non ph staff in Africa. It has a real impact. I fish with some French buddies and will in the future. They follow tip Per boat rules and I go along but compensate with tipping with gear and stuff that has value (ugly stick rods make great tips - same for penn reels. I also nearly leave back all my gear. Mike | |||
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I notice all advertised hunts here on AR state tipping is not included in the quoted price. That's a nice way to let folks know a tip is expected. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting TIPS! The Subject Keeps Coming Up Frequently, Please Help.
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