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In my opinion...right after personal (Stu's) responsibility...this is the next most responsible party. Kambako is the party Martin should be chastising! They SHOULD carry disability insurance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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If this were in the US, workers comp would cover medical and a portion of lost wages. Obviously the laws in Moz are not similar to ours. | |||
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You said it Larry Elk camp this weekend " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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I have argued the point of personal responsibility as that is what I believe in...taking care of oneself and ones own family...the very principles this country was founded upon and the very principles my family existed on for years when they first homesteaded the country West of Fort Richardson Texas when all that country was still Commanche inhabited. Self reliance is what made the USA strong enough to win WWII and become the Strong Nation we once were. That said...I am Christian and my faith teaches me to help others in need...and I am a big believer in that. I just think it is WRONG for anyone to believe it their "right" to have others take responsibility for them or their immediate family. I believe it is wrong to try and shame people into it or coerce people into it. Evil occurs when good men do nothing. Good men usually don't ask for reward for their good deeds. If you feel like someone is in need...just step up to the plate and help them out. Don't coerce others into you beliefs and don't crow about what you have done. When both of the above events (self reliance & good men helping others freely) take place...the world functions as it should. My 2 cents and I want to leave this thread for good. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I always thought that this country was founded by men who put their interests in taking care of numero UNO, their family their kids and even their G-d, second to their interest in their Country as whole as well as their unrelated fellow man. That is what won the revolution. Not a bunch of "me and my family first" types. I guess one of us is wrong, hope its not me. I'm fairly certain that old Benedict Arnold was a me and my family first type, and George Washington and the men of Valley Forge, were individuals who sacrificed self and family for their fellow unrelated man. | |||
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 What part the rest of my post did you not understand? Like the part where I said: "That said...I am Christian and my faith teaches me to help others in need...and I am a big believer in that." Or: "Evil occurs when good men do nothing. Good men usually don't ask for reward for their good deeds. If you feel like someone is in need...just step up to the plate and help them out." As an avid reader of American History...I am pretty George Washington would subscribe to those 2 statements as well as taking care of his family.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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A while ago Tim asked what more could be done to raise money for Stu. I suggested that he auction his "big" hunts to the highest bidder, under the condition they agree to filmed for his TV show. Do his sponsors really care that he pulls the trigger? If not, why not sell them and give the proceeds to Stu? He never responded to that, although there was a turkey hunt sold. As for "making a living" there are plenty of outdoor personalities who seem to do just fine writing about non-glamorous hunts. In fact, that would characterize the majority of writers and outdoor communicators. How many of us would ask AR members to help pay for medical injuries caused by us and then continue to spend big money on big hunts? Tim doesn't have to shoot lions to make a show; he could have sold that hunt to someone else and still gotten a TV show. Either he got that hunt for free or a big discount, or he makes enough to pay for Stu's injuries himself. Accidents do happen. Stu should have had insurance. It wasn't Tim's fault, but it is his responsibility, at least more so than ours. Larry Shores, your actions are definitely a class act. I wish I was more like you but unfortunately, I am not. | |||
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Good Job with this post....you really put this in perspective and your suggestions make allot of sense!!
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Off topic but where can we send a check to help out Stuart Taylor? | |||
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"Accidents do happen". Stu should have had insurance. It wasn't Tim's fault, but it is his responsibility, at least more so than ours." Accidents do happen and this is no accident. If you pull the trigger of a gun it supposed to go bang. If you have it pointed in the direction of someone they can get shot! The basics of gun safety, which I am sure a person who hunts all over he world knows and usually practices, were not used. "Stu should have had insurance" In a perfect world yes. Maybe our president will move to Africa and make sure everyone their gets insurance; boy I wish he would. Yes it is Tim's fault! Was it intentional; of course it was not! It is Tim's responsibility and hopefully he is or has stepped up to the plate and does what ever it takes to make this right with Stu. This needs to be done to the full extent of his pocketbook, the TV shows and the insurance company that represents them. | |||
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Shootaway, In looking thru all of the posts I see that larryshores has mentioned that "Conservation Force" is taking donations but unfortunately I can not find a address for them. If anyone has a address, link etc were we can send, or inquire, about sending funds to help Stu please post it. | |||
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So in addition to saying PH-Stu Taylor should have sensibly made sure he had proper & adequate insurance coverage for himself, we can also equally apply that and say; MR.Herald[who also hunts for a living] should also have made sure he had proper & adequate[comprehensive] insurance cover, in the event of himself being injured-shot, or as in this case, his firearm discharging and injuring someone-else. Lest one has comfortably sufficient disposable personal wealth to cover oneself for such incidences. Looking at the Tim Herald webpage ,...I see lots of promotion of self and sponsors, but no mention of any program or efforts to assist Stu-Taylor. | |||
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Trax: Funny, I was thinking the same thing this morning. What person of any means doesn't have a comprehensive umbrella policy? It is common sense to me. In fact, I typically increase mine every year to match my net worth. | |||
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Is there a link to watch this show After several Google searches I have found none ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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That type of personal policy will typically not cover business matters . It could be handles by purchasing a business GL policy. | |||
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I know mine would cover this, but then I am not expensing my hunts as a business expense; I am going as a private person. In any event, he should have had insurance to cover something like this. Both parties are at fault for this. | |||
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The insurance company's interest is to not pay on a policy and they will look for any loophole they can not to pay. On my professional policy, if they can find a way to say that I was "grossly" negligent, they will not pay. That means that I knew better and was aware of the consequences of my action but did it anyway. I'm not saying Tim was "grossly" negligent, just that his insurance company may be invoking that clause to not pay. They may also be pointing fingers at each other ie the business liability insurance company may say the gun was the issue due to some malfunction. All that is to say the insurance money may not be forthcoming anytime soon even if Magnum/Tim had one. In the mean time Stu Taylor is suffering financially and physically. | |||
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Why should the insurance company pay for something that was excluded? If every carrier paid excluded and/or in excess of policy limit claims every time someone was suffering, they would all be insolvent. | |||
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Not saying they should, just saying these are the games they play. Some insurance carriers I deal with will send a denial letter as the first reply as a matter of course then we jump through their hoops to get paid. | |||
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Not all companies are created equally . | |||
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txlonghorn, You are 110% correct in everything you say...I deal with them all the time too. Even if it is not excluded...they look for ways out or to minimize payment...that is there business though and we should all recognize it ahead of time. During the recession it got even worse. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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One needs to understand that if insurance companies didn't watch the payouts, the rates would sky rocket. While it is a pain in the ass sometimes, it is a necessary evil. There is ALWAYS someone trying to screw them. | |||
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Some 3 1/2 years ago, I was involved in an auto accident. Bumper to bumper rush hour traffic. The cars in front of me got underway again and seemed to be picking up speed and so I got going again. Looked down to pick up a bottle of water and when I looked back up again I knew I was going to rear end the gentleman in front of me as he and the traffic in front of him had come back to a stop. Was I "careless and negligent"? Seems like harsh language as this was the first accident I've ever been in in over 26 years of driving. Whatever the case I was responsible and I told the cops that. I was cited and later when I contacted my insurance company I told them the same, that it was my fault. My insurance company was great to me and my truck was fully repaired in short order. What I didn't know was how they were treating the fellow I hit. They told me on the phone there was nothing to worry about and they would settle with this gentleman. About two years later came a knock on my door one evening. I was served with papers letting me know I was being sued. Two years later for a slow speed accident in the U.S., with both parties being American citizens and where there was no dispute who was responsible, the insurance companies were still fiddle farting around resolving this. Eventually when the lawyers finally got to it, and with Arizona statute obligating arbitration first, the suit was settled out of court. Color me as you may, but I don't believe anyone on this thread has all of the pertinent facts to arrive at a fully substantiated conclusion for or against Mr. Herald. There are far too many unknowns in regards to the incident and who knows what going on with the insurance or if there even is insurance involved. If insurance is involved it has only been a year (though I'm sure it feels like much more than that to Mr. Taylor) so I can't imagine considering the logistics, and the way the some insurance companies work, that the insurance would have settled at this point. This thread reminds of the one where a hunter killed either a very immature elephant or cow. A number of folks jumped on the booking agent. Later it was revealed the hunter paid a bribe to the game scout to make a wounded buffalo "go away" putting both the booking agent and outfitter into a bind. Of course once this was revealed a number of supporters of the hunter were left with egg on their face. | |||
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[QU Color me as you may, but I don't believe anyone on this thread has all of the pertinent facts to arrive at a fully substantiated conclusion for or against Mr. Herald. There are far too many unknowns in regards to the incident and who knows what going on with the insurance or if there even is insurance involved. If insurance is involved it has only been a year (though I'm sure it feels like much more than that to Mr. Taylor) so I can't imagine considering the logistics, and the way the some insurance companies work, that the insurance would have settled at this point. [/QUOTE] That about sums it up. | |||
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that's good to know. i always thought it was the other way around..... Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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I like the Scotch thread better. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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I carry a one million dollar blanket liabilty policy because shit happens. Hope I never have to use it. Jeff | |||
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7mm, That is a very good post you made there and exactly what I was attempting to point out in my earlier comment. What I heard concerning how much Tim had contributed at the time Martin made his post, was significantly different than what Martin stated, and Martin's post was quickly shown to contain factual errors. That being said, I don't know FOR A FACT what has or has not been done at this point. I'm not sure any of us KNOW FOR A FACT what has or has not been done other than Stu and Tim. I don't know Tim well, but from what I do know of him, he appears to be a man of character, therefore, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as to his statements while this is all hammered out and the FACTS regarding financial settlement become clear. Have we heard first hand from Stu, not through an emissary, but Stu himself, as to what financial help he has or has not received to date? If so, I missed it. I bring this up because Martin says Stu told him one thing and Tim says Stu told him something quite different concerning the early financial help. Have we heard from Stu or Tim what is being done behind the scenes concerning insurance payouts? If so, I've missed that as well. I think the one thing we all DO know is that unless you are a direct party to this incident, none of us has full knowledge of what is happening in regards to final settlement of the issue. Some may simply take issue with the fact that more discussion of the details from the affected parties has not been forthcoming, and speculative opinions are being formed as a result. I suspect that what is really going on is that both parties have been ordered to keep silent so as to not jeopardize the insurance case. To 7mm's point, and my earlier point, I've experienced two major insurance claims. The first was way back in 1981 and involved a motorcycle wreck. I hit the guy from behind but was it my fault, as has been suggested in this thread that it's always the guy in back that's at fault. Well, the police and ultimately the insurance company said NO! I was riding on the highway near my parent's home, while on spring break at college. I came up behind a fellow in an older pick up truck, pulling a barbecue pit trailer. I stabilized behind him at similar speed, then with a long clear way, and proper passing markings on the road, I began to pass him since he was doing 20mph or so below the speed limit. Just as I got to the the point of being committed to going around, he turned left blocking the road with his truck in the left lane, and trailer in the right lane. I had no place to go but to hit him. The crash severely mangled my right leg with multiple compound fractures below the knee as well as a few lacerations to my face, with one hitting an artery. My fault? Well it probably would have been except that the pick up truck had no functioning tail lights, brake lights, or turn signals. The trailer had no lights at all. So I had no warning whatsoever and hit him from behind while passing and him turning into me. The point? Well, there are sometimes mitigating circumstances involved concerning who is at fault based on positioning alone. In my case, no brake lights or turn signals. In Tim's case, possibly a charging buffalo bull in the midst of the hunting party where the PH had already fired a shot in self defense. I was nineteen years old at the time, in school, but off of my parent's medical insurance plan. The man in the truck had insurance, but my father had to pay all medical expenses current until a final settlement was made. It took just short of 3 years, even back in 1981, for the insurance attorneys to come to an agreement and my father to finally receive reimbursement for his out of pocket payments. The point I was trying to make earlier is that the insurance company did not simply make a series of blank check payments during my treatment and recovery process, but rather waited until the final medical procedures were determined, at which time a final award was agreed to and paid out. Not knowing all the facts with Tim and Stu's incident, I would suspect that something similar is playing out between the two parties. Tim says he has made significant financial contributions to help Stu. Since it continues to be brought up, do any of us KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT whether or not he has liquidated assets in order to help? I don't. Personally, I don't see a problem with Tim setting up some fund raisers to help further. I would think it a positive that he has the ability to do so. I realize my point of view is significantly different from some on this thread, but to me it seems that two fellows who share our same interest in hunting and conservation are hurting from this event. Stu physically and Tim mentally. Really, can you imagine being in either of these guys shoes right now? I can certainly see how this happened and I'll be the first to say, from the way the incident was described, "There but for the grace of God, go I". Any of us could have been on either end of this unfortunate tragedy. Once the details of how the financial matters become public knowledge, if they ever do, blame may or may not be appropriate. Until that time, it seems to me that helping these two guys through an incredibly difficult time is the thing to do! | |||
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"Shit doesn't happen". That's a piss poor excuse, brought up by the boobs who have no business handling a gun. How many people have been to Africa 6 or more times without shooting a person? It's panic, its self defensive without regard to others. Its me first and f*€K you! It's embarrassing. I alone apparently will not be watching, Magnum "Nancy's" hunting whatever is in front of the gun when I pull the trigger. I guess in this day and age if you are a back shooter, you better get insurance, and if you work for an outfitter as a PH, you better be willing to say "I will not hunt with this POS! This thread has really gone far enough in my opinion. Buying insurance in case you are a piece of shit? Buying insurance in case you sign on to guide a POS? Really, that's what it has come to? Come on. | |||
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Let's just say IMO it is in really bad taste to ask us to fund something for which he was responsible and then continue to go on hunts most AR members only dream of. As I said, if he has the means to go on an extended African vacation with his family in tow and go lion hunting, he has the means to pay Stu's injuries in their entirety. To then broadcast this as well as other hunts on AR and in the media and not expect some of us to be critical is pretty ignorant. Todd, I know you love Tim, but I suspect if you shot a guy you wouldn't be asking us for money and then continue to go hunting. I know I wouldn't, and I sure wouldn't be posting about my hunts ex post facto. Search the internet; there are plenty of folks who feel the same way. | |||
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DAMN WELL SAID!!  a person maims another person, asks others to help pay for the injured person, THEN CARRIES ON WITH HIGH TICKET HUNTS???? WTF? hell, most of us only dream of affording a lion hunt- others apparently get to make one, leaving a PH permanently disabled in their wake......Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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It seems a lot of our American friends are applying the same rules they have in America to what happens in other countries. America has become such a lawyers paradise, that everyone wants to sue someone else for anything. To the extent that international insurance companies, who will cover you anywhere in the world, have to have a separate policy or an expensive add on to cover you in America. Also, many people here seem to assume things which we are not privy to between Tim and Stu. How do we know what Tim is paying Stu? Non of us have any idea about it. Tim might be trying to get as much money for Stu as he possibly can get, from himself and others who wish to help a fellow hunter in need. How many of those posting here have donated money to Stu? How many of those who did donate sizeable amounts said anything about it? Is Tim supposed to give up his work, and give all his life savings to Stu? How do we know that because he is paying Stu, he has to work to earn his money? This was an accident, pure and simple. And it could happen to any of us who do hunt. | |||
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AAZ, I don't "love Tim" as you say. I don't know him that well at all, as I've stated several times. I have nothing to gain by taking his side in any of this. I'm not an industry name and I'm not attempting to become an industry name. I enjoy my hunting as a client. I wouldn't want to ruin that by turning it into a job. It may very well seem otherwise, but those who know me personally would be quick to tell you that I don't kiss up to anyone, for any reason, and I never have. I could agree with your sentiment concerning Tim's continued hunting if he were simply a hunter / client. But the fact is, Tim makes his living from hunting and the writing and TV production thereof. If he were to cease those activities, he would be forgoing his method of earning money. Without earning money, how is he expected to continue contributing to Stu's recovery funds? Some have suggested selling assets. Firstly I don't know if he has assets to sell per se and secondly, if he does, I don't know if he has or has not done so to date. Do you? Or anyone else? My entire point in all of this is that there are a lot of very definite statements being made condemning Tim when none of us really KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, what he has or hasn't done in regards to helping Stu. If you'll re-read my statement, I said that blame may or may not be appropriate once the dust settles and we become aware of what really was done, or not done regarding Tim helping Stu. I like to form opinions, to the extent that I can, based on known facts. In this case, I don't know the facts, and I don't think anyone else here does. Therefore, I'm reluctant to take a strong stance against a man without knowing more. It matters not that Tim has a TV show or that he writes for a few magazines. I couldn't care less about that. I've got a few friends "in the hunting industry". Many more who are NOT in the hunting industry. I've never, not once, asked any of the "name" guys I know, for anything. Not even a dirty T-Shirt! I simply couldn't care less how they make their living, as long as it's legal. When this finally plays out, however it plays out, we may all become privy to the details. Blame and shame may or may not be appropriate at that time. Personally, I am more concerned with helping Stu right now than I am with picking Tim apart. First things first. Picking Tim apart isn't going to help Stu's financial predicament. Sending him some funds will help. I'll focus on that for now, and I don't know Stu at all. I know nothing about him other than what others here have stated. But I would think we share a like mindset in our love of hunting and as a fellow hunter, since he is in need, I'll lend a hand. | |||
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No one is saying he should give up his life savings, but the image he is projecting is not helping his case. Lots of writers have never shot any lions, buffalo, or even been to Africa. The writer who has focused the most on Africa recently declared bankruptcy, so it can't be that lucrative - in fact, I can only conclude a writer goes to Africa to write about Africa because he wants to, not because he has to. ' I have no idea how much Tim has given Stu; I only know the following: 1. He asked us to contribute on the very FIRST post about Stu. 2. I suggested he auction off his big ticket hunts on the condition the buyer agrees to be filmed; I can't think of a better way to raise funds. No answer from Tim, other than a turkey hunt. 3. He recently went on a lion hunt and visit to RSA with his family in tow; that trip alone would have paid for most of Stu's wages this year. Now, many folks might do the same - but I don't think they would be posting it on the internet! 4. He has stated that he will not reveal what he has personally contributed. So we have no idea. We only know he continues to go on hunts most AR members only dream of. 5. I recall he planned on completing his hunt this year with Stu. It would have been a lot better to post, "Stu isn't ready to come back hunting, so I am postponing my lion hunt with him until he is able to do so." Instead, he booked with someone else. Should Tim have forked over his life savings to pay for Stu's injuries? Well, if that lion hunt cost him his life's savings, then I say, "Yes, he should." If his life savings exceed the cost of that hunt, then he can afford to pay the damages. He has made some interesting choices about how he spends his money. Todd: Like I said, there are plenty of writers making a living without spending money on big ticket hunts. Some focus solely on whitetails and seem to do quite well. He could have auctioned the moose and lion hunt off and still gotten a story. He chose not to. In fact, he didn't even try. | |||
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AAZ, I hear what you are saying, and on the surface, the auctioning of some of the hunts as you suggested sounds like a good plan. But, you said it yourself,
That being said, do we know whether or not he has contributed more or less than one of these hunts, if auctioned, would have provided? I don't, therefore I'll not pick at his bones, but rather contribute what I can in a positive manner for now, that being making a contribution to Stu's recovery fund. I'll be sending out a check tomorrow. | |||
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And I will be sending another check to the Brendan Morrocco Road to Recovery Trust: http://www.brendanmarrocco.org...y/About_Brendan.html It is wonderful we all have choice when it comes to how we spend our money. | |||
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Yes it is! Being a veteran of the first Iraq war myself, I've been a contributor to the Wounded Warrior project from early on. Mr. Morrocco certainly sustained some truly terrible injuries. Do you know this young man AAZ? | |||
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"Is Tim supposed to give up his work, and give all his life savings to Stu?" Absolutly!! If that is what it takes to get Stu's life back together to the point it was before he was shot. "This was an accident, pure and simple." What accident? This gun did not shoot on its own. nor did it point itself at someone else. "And it could happen to any of us who do hunt." Absolutly and I pray it never does. One of the few things that can help is to practice gun safety; in all situations. In stressful situations the only wasy to do this is train for it. Also, this has been asked in a couple of the posts; where can we send a donation to? I do not want to send it to anyone or place that has involvement with the show. I have seen mention of the "Conservation Fund", is this a place that can see that Stu's get the funds to help him out? | |||
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npd: If he gives up his work, how can he help Stu? | |||
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