I missed both of the showings...anyone know when it will be shown again so I can dvr it? thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
Any of us who have hunted and shot guns our whole lives can probably reach back into our memory and recall an incident that could have easily turned into a disaster, but, for some reason, it didn't. I know I can think of one that still scares the daylights out of me. Sometimes no matter how careful we are, shit still happens.

I agree with Wendell whole heartily; especially his last line.

I think the term "accident" is not the proper term in this situation, "unintentional" would be better.

Basic gun safety teaches us to have our finger off the trigger until ready to shoot and to be aware of what is in front of our barrel. This becomes even more important in a high stress incident such as this.

I have watched this episode several times. I admire Tim for showing it and being candid about what happened.

There is a lot of talk about this happening because of the nature of hunting dangerous game; all the more reason to keep the most basic of gun safety in mind. In the heat of these moments it does not appear this was the case.

Most all of us, myself included have made similar mistakes and have been very fortunate that their was not a similar outcome.

I have hunted in Africa twice but never for what is generally called Dangerous Game.

In a 33 year law enforcement career, 16 as a tactical officer, basic firearms safety was always at the top of the training list.

We were taught, and I believe, that there is no such thing as a accidental shooting. There are many unintentional shots fired and they all track back to improper and/or unsafe practices, often in highly stressful situations.

Again, I admire Tim for showing the film, it shows his true character but this was no accident in my way of thinking. And it certainly was not intentional.

My prayers are with both Stu and Tim.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Let's not forget that Stu needs help.

Larry, I was finally able to get home and watch the DVR of the episode. It is chilling.
I was moved to immediately make a donation to Stu online.

I got a chance to watch it tonight. Kudo's for Tim for stepping up and airing this episode. It's definitely chilling to think that could happen to any of us. The agony in his face reflects the pain in his heart. That will stick with him for the rest of his life.
Have made my donations to the Stu fund and my prayers are still with him.

It was gut wrenching to watch.
But kudos for airing it.

Both me and my boys will watch it more than once to drive home gun safety that I have taught from day one.

I learned early on that it can happen to anyone. I was shot by a state champion trap shooter while pheasant hunting. I was 12 years old and it was my first year of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

Last year in Zim, neighbor PH got shot by client as the client was putting gun in rack in the truck.
Again, very unfortunate, but handling guns, accidents happen and lots of factors weigh in.

If its the same incident, then, more than just the client was being negligent.

AS I understand it,
The client - was in the habit of chambering a round,whilst holding the trigger down and closing the bolt.
On the first hunt, He had a negligent discharge.
On the second hunt,after repeatedly being warned about gun safety,
he still did not clear his rifle before bagging and placing it in the rack at rear of cab.
At the next occasion client needed the rifle, the tracker pulled it out of the bag to hand it to him. The gun went Off!
The projectile struck the roll bar breaking it in two:- One piece split the scalp of the PH..the other hit the tracker in the chest.

Three negligent adults in that scenario.

1. The client,.. for obvious reasons.
2. The PH........why?..he well knew the client could not be trusted and did not himself clear the clients rifle for safe transport.
3. The Tracker..for not cautiously handling/treating the racked rifle.

Not able to watch this, sure would like to, til then I'd like to hear just what took place.

I was partly raised by an old elk killer rancher thru my high school summers working his hay crew. We hunted and shot a lot those yrs and we hunted elk from his house in season for many yrs. Some yrs before I started going up there, and before hunter orange was made a law. Most wore red/blk checked shirts n jackets. Red rags on horses and such. This guy told me he'd killed over 300 elk by that time. Most in the haystacks during the winter. He ranched all his life in elk country, they were a major pest to the ranchers in that area.

This happened Oct 1949.
He flat told me: "you do something long enough sooner or later you're gonna screw up". Late one evening in a creek bottom he was watching a trail along a side hill in tall pines using iron sights. When Dad and some friends came riding down the trail. First man was on a palomino horse with the red/blk, rags etc on. Orin shot and made a good shot. Even though on the wrong animal. Hitting just barely in front of the riders foreleg thru the stirrup leathers. Of course all hell broke loose with the rest of the animals bucking and running off etc. No one got hurt. But, it was mighty close.
All this was drummed into me for yrs by several of those involved including and mostly by the shooter. "Be damned careful with and around guns and watch what everyone else is doing too!".
Sorry to hear of this accident.
George

All the pontificating & all the armchair expertise in the world won't alter the fact that it happened & everyone involved will feel bad about it until the end of their days.

I haven't seen the programme but would guess it doesn't dodge any issues & as no-one can wind back the clock, I guess the best thing to do is try to learn a salutary lesson from it & perhaps remember the old quote of: There but for the grace of God go I.


From the Rubiat of Omar Khayam

The moving finger writes, and having writ,
Moves on, nor all thy piety nor wit,
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
All the pontificating & all the armchair expertise in the world won't alter the fact that it happened & everyone involved will feel bad about it until the end of their days.

I haven't seen the programme but would guess it doesn't dodge any issues & as no-one can wind back the clock, I guess the best thing to do is try to learn a salutary lesson from it & perhaps remember the old quote of: There but for the grace of God go I.

Well said Steve. Especially the highlighted part.

Practicing safety doesn't guarantee safety. Tim, you did a service by letting us know/see how it feels to experience failure. If we can't learn from it, the weakness is our own. Good man!

This is a good place to put contact information to send donations.
Like bwanamrm said good time to send another donation.

There but for the grace of God go I and any one else who has been in really high intensity situations with fire arms. No one is perfect.

Conservation Force was accepting donations .

You can also contact the Magnum Hunt Club.

Personally, myself and one other person gave him money directly . I have an e mail into him now . I am awaiting a response .

Went to bed just after posting last night.
Got to thinking. There was someone over there that had his arm shot off too. Am I right?
OR is this the same incident and I'm mixed up??
George

I recall reading that a different PH, Anthony Howland,
required his arm to be amputated, after being shot by a client.
>> http://www.africahunting.com/l...d-news-zimbabwe.html

I also believe there was a hunting incident some time back, involving another client[Keim] under Stu Taylor.
Faced with a charging elephant, both men began running backwards causing the client to trip over a bush,
putting himself directly in the path of the charging Elephant.
Stu Taylors headhots with a .458cal didnt stop the animal, It was finally stopped by the client.

Fortunately, there was no harmful negligent discharge of a firearm.

Interesting that, in Law enforcement and military, if a firearm goes off when it is not supposed to,
It is then investigated to see if it was due to mechanical failure or malfunction,
However If it is found to be the unintentional fault of the officer/soldier,
it is then deemed to be a -negligent discharge- not an accident.

Somehow part of the hunting fraternity conveniently prefers to view such human responsible actions, differently.

Is there anyplace that has the video saved? Youtube or something?

I sometimes wonder how the story and susequent reaction would be if the roles were inverted. i.e. PH accidentally shoots and maims/kills the client ....... just a passing thought.

Does anyone know of, or heard of any such incident?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
I sometimes wonder how the story and susequent reaction would be if the roles were inverted. i.e. PH accidentally shoots and maims/kills the client ....... just a passing thought.

Does anyone know of, or heard of any such incident?

Years ago there was an incident by a CAMPFIRE game scout in Zim who shot both the client and PH. Both survived, but not so sure about the game scout. Otherwise cannot recall a PH involved shooting. I am sure it has crossed the minds of a few PH’s however.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
I am sure it has crossed the minds of a few PH’s however.

I finally got a chance to watch the show. I think it is probably the most important hunting show I have ever watched and I am glad I have it recorded as I am showing it to a couple of my buddies as well. Never done that with another show.

The emotion, look, everthing in Tim's actions and words tell a story, to have raw video of what Stu was going through.

I think that every outfitter should require this to be watched by their clients before any type of dangerous game hunt. Just as a reminder of what can happen. Just my two cents.

I take my hat off to Tim, the cameraman, and everyone else that made sure this was filmed and got put on TV. Extremely sad but very informative and a reminder to all of us to step it up a notch in regards to safety, etc.

I really wish this should could be put on YouTube or somewhere for everyone to see. It is a must watch in my mind. Just a chilling reminder and a wake up call for all of us.

Justin

I have communicated with Stu today. He is by no means ready (physically) to get back into the bush. The long terms prospects are not known at this time. He has a long way to go.

He needs help. Personally, I wired him some money today. I urge you to contact Conservation Force or the Magnum Hunt Club to make a contribution to him.

Are there any incidents on record of the PH shooting the client? My bet is on the odds that there are not!

It is amazing how big a circle some Egotistical TV stars will dance around the truth and not quite admit to any culpability (that's BLAME Tim).

And, this is NOT an accident. An accident, by legal definition, would have been the rifle sneaking out of a case, loading itself, and firing itself.

We are dealing with unintentional at best, careless at the least; and a man who was likely scared shitless as the most likely scenario.

When you pull the trigger the gun is supposed to go off.....

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

Last year in Zim, neighbor PH got shot by client as the client was putting gun in rack in the truck.
Again, very unfortunate, but handling guns, accidents happen and lots of factors weigh in.

If its the same incident, then, more than just the client was being negligent.

AS I understand it,
The client - was in the habit of chambering a round,while holding trigger down & closing bolt.
On the first hunt, He had a negligent discharge.
On the second hunt,after repeatedly being warned about gun safety,
he still did not clear his rifle before bagging and placing it in the rack at rear of cab.
At the next occasion client needed the rifle, the tracker pulled it out of the bag to hand it to him. The gun went Off!
The projectile struck the roll bar breaking it in two:- One piece split the scalp of the PH..the other hit the tracker in the chest.

Three negligent adults in that scenario.

1. The client,.. for obvious reasons.
2. The PH........why?..he well knew the client could not be trusted and did not himself clear the clients rifle for safe transport.
3. The Tracker...for not cautiously handling the bagged/racked rifle.


I also recall that SA-PH Louis Lategan of Melody Safaris, was shot by one of his clients while hunting Busbuck, mid-2012.

Clients can be highly successfull individuals that run businesses,corporations and sometimes even countries,
maybe such clients when negligent, need to be more humble and admit-accept responsibility for their actions.
In the business/corporate world however,like politics, it not uncommon to deny,deny,deny any wrong doing or culpability.

Professional mature-minded reptile handlers,who regularly deal with potentially dangerous items like highly deadly-venemous snakes,
dont refer to it as an 'accident' when they get bitten.
They know within themselves it was caused by a lack of due vigilance/caution on their own part.
and thats knowing that snakes have a mind of their own, ..which Firearms don't.
Firearms unlike snakes, simply do as commanded.
Same with aircraft, pilot error causing a crash,- is not an accident.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

Last year in Zim, neighbor PH got shot by client as the client was putting gun in rack in the truck.
Again, very unfortunate, but handling guns, accidents happen and lots of factors weigh in.

If its the same incident, then, more than just the client was being negligent.

AS I understand it,
The client - was in the habit of chambering a round,while holding trigger down & closing bolt.
On the first hunt, He had a negligent discharge.
On the second hunt,after repeatedly being warned about gun safety,
he still did not clear his rifle before bagging and placing it in the rack at rear of cab.
At the next occasion client needed the rifle, the tracker pulled it out of the bag to hand it to him. The gun went Off!
The projectile struck the roll bar breaking it in two:- One piece split the scalp of the PH..the other hit the tracker in the chest.

Three negligent adults in that scenario.

1. The client,.. for obvious reasons.
2. The PH........why?..he well knew the client could not be trusted and did not himself clear the clients rifle for safe transport.
3. The Tracker...for not cautiously handling the bagged/racked rifle.


I also recall that SA-PH Louis Lategan of Melody Safaris, was shot by one of his clients while hunting Busbuck, mid-2012.

Clients can be highly successfull individuals that run businesses,corporations and sometimes even countries,
maybe such clients when negligent, need to be more humble and admit-accept responsibility for their actions.
In the business/corporate world however,like politics, it not uncommon to deny,deny,deny any wrong doing or culpability.

Professional mature-minded reptile handlers,who regularly deal with potentially dangerous items like highly deadly-venemous snakes,
dont refer to it as an 'accident' when they get bitten.
They know within themselves it was caused by a lack of due vigilance/caution on their own part.
and thats knowing that snakes have a mind of their own, ..which Firearms don't.
Firearms unlike snakes, simply do as commanded.
Same with aircraft, pilot error causing a crash,- is not an accident.

Or as illustrated in your post a series of mistakes that come together with catastrophic consequences.

Let´s also bear in mind that most of the people involved are in an alien environment, well out of their comfort zone & more often than not taking drugs that may possibly cloud the mind or slow reactions etc from time to time.

Which takes us back to my previous post where I said there but for the grace of God, go I.

How much money has been collected for Stu via Tim and Insurance etc, tragic all the way round.

I will be in Bulawayo this week and will be seeing Stu, i will give a report after the meeting.

That would be great, I am still a little stunned that the insurance company have not paid out, or the client, after all anytime your finger is on the trigger the liability and or consequences are yours.

While I do not pretend to know the all of the exact details, I do know the following:

1- Various parties have donated through Conservation Force. I seem to recall someone saying that the first transfer was about $39,000. I do not know if there if there have been subsequent transfers.

2- Certain parties (of which I am one) donated to Stu directly. I have personally done this twice.

3- Some turkey hunts were auctioned off to benefit Stu. This raised several thousand dollars.

4- When the show was aired, the issue of donating was raised several times. Hopefully, more money was raised.

5- I understand that none of the insurance companies have paid. I have no idea why.

I hope Stu fully recovers. However, there seems to be a question of whether this will happen.

My gut is telling me Mr. Taylor will not get back a significant amount of what he lost, both physically and mentally. Im hoping that in 10 years I will be proven so obviously wrong as to be completely laughable.

You wouldn't catch me back hunting within several years and probably much longer, if I Klutz Shot a person. But thats just me, I know.

quote:

You wouldn't catch me back hunting within several years and probably much longer, if I Klutz Shot a person. But thats just me, I know.

why is that?

Takes guts to recover from something like that...and a different sort of guts to put yourself out there like Tim did.

JMHO

I think Tim put himself back out due to the fact he makes a living in the hunting industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by boarkiller:



I also recall that SA-PH Louis Lategan of Melody Safaris, was shot by one of his clients while hunting Busbuck, mid-2012.

I hunted with Louis in 2008. Is he ok from this incident?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
While I do not pretend to know the all of the exact details, I do know the following:

1- Various parties have donated through Conservation Force. I seem to recall someone saying that the first transfer was about $39,000. I do not know if there if there have been subsequent transfers.

2- Certain parties (of which I am one) donated to Stu directly. I have personally done this twice.

3- Some turkey hunts were auctioned off to benefit Stu. This raised several thousand dollars.

4- When the show was aired, the issue of donating was raised several times. Hopefully, more money was raised.

5- I understand that none of the insurance companies have paid. I have no idea why.

I hope Stu fully recovers. However, there seems to be a question of whether this will happen.

Well, I understand Tim H is a first rate fella. He sure seems that way. What I find ironic is that Tim H accidentally shot him, but then wanted the general public to help compensate the guy. I find that a bit strange. I know if I shot someone accidentally, I'd make damn sure he was taken care of by me personally, even if I had to sell some stuff to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
While I do not pretend to know the all of the exact details, I do know the following:

1- Various parties have donated through Conservation Force. I seem to recall someone saying that the first transfer was about $39,000. I do not know if there if there have been subsequent transfers.

2- Certain parties (of which I am one) donated to Stu directly. I have personally done this twice.

3- Some turkey hunts were auctioned off to benefit Stu. This raised several thousand dollars.

4- When the show was aired, the issue of donating was raised several times. Hopefully, more money was raised.

5- I understand that none of the insurance companies have paid. I have no idea why.

I hope Stu fully recovers. However, there seems to be a question of whether this will happen.

Well, I understand Tim H is a first rate fella. He sure seems that way. What I find ironic is that Tim H accidentally shot him, but then wanted the general public to help compensate the guy. I find that a bit strange. I know if I shot someone accidentally, I'd make damn sure he was taken care of by me personally, even if I had to sell some stuff to do so.

I don't think we know what Tim did or did not do. The costs of this must be immense. Just because there has been a public attempt at fund raising does not necessarily mean that Tim did nothing .

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:


Well, I understand Tim H is a first rate fella. He sure seems that way. What I find ironic is that Tim H accidentally shot him, but then wanted the general public to help compensate the guy. I find that a bit strange. I know if I shot someone accidentally, I'd make damn sure he was taken care of by me personally, even if I had to sell some stuff to do so.

Well, I have to say I don't understand some of the positions taken on this subject as well. Firstly, Tim makes his living from hunting. It isn't simply the pleasurable pastime it is for most of us. I think some are loosing sight of that fact when calling for him to cease hunting altogether. Stu is also a Professional Hunter, making his living from hunting, not simply the pleasurable pastime it is for most of us as well.

With that in mind, and working from the position that Tim and Stu's accident is easily something that but for the grace of god, could happen to any of us, I've tried to put it into perspective of my profession.

So as a professional pilot, which I was for many years before a medical issue arose, if I were to hire another pilot to take me flying, even seeking instruction, maybe in an aircraft type that I'm not certified in, and in the process of that flight, I crashed the plane, resulting in the other pilot being seriously injured, to the point of no longer being able to continue his profession of flying, what would I be facing?

Firstly, considering that many more pilots fly for pleasure than as a profession, are there similarities here applicable to this incident? I suggest that there are. So should I listen to the amateur pilots who fly for pleasure rather than income, that suggest the proper thing to do would be to cease flying on my part as a result of the accident, knowing that is the way I earn a living? If I do so, and give up my method of earning money, does that help or hurt my abilities to help the injured pilot financially during the period of time the insurance companies drag out proper payout for his injuries? Somehow, that doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

From what Tim has told me, as well as stated here on AR, he has personally contributed to Stu's recovery fund, as he rightfully should. But back to this little parable, if I had a bit of a name for myself in the flying business, and had the ability to draw clients for airshow ride alongs (as an example) as well as offer flights or my services as a pilot on a charitable basis in return for a donation to the pilot who was injured while flying with me, would that be seen as wrong or strange? How is this relevant? I know for a fact that Tim and his partner in the show, offered a few turkey hunts, with all proceeds being donated to Stu. I know the guy who purchased those hunts and Saeed offered to match whatever funds were generated, all going to Stu's recovery fund. Seems to me that Tim making arrangements to put together additional methods by which monies can be directed to Stu is a positive effort, not strange or negative in any way, unless of course he was relying 100% on his celebrity to draw outside funds for Stu! From what I understand, that isn't the case at all.

Tim hasn't hidden from this incident that I can tell. He offered it up as a television show in hopes that others could learn from the mistakes, exposing himself to whatever criticism that may come. From what I can tell, he is manning up to responsibility in terms of showing the incident for us all to learn from, he has contributed his personal funds, maintained his job in order to continue contributing his personal funds, set up additional avenues to generate funds to Stu's relief needs, and made it possible for anyone who would like to help out a fellow hunter who was the victim of a horrific field incident.

Some have made comments that verge on accusing Tim of shooting Stu intentionally. Case in point, one poster here stated the incident "bordered on negligence at best". Sounds like a thinly veiled accusation of intent to shoot the guy from the way I read that! Does anyone really believe that Tim intended to shoot his friend and PH? For what purpose? Again, something that doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

I think it's easy to criticize a person who earns his living in the public eye. I think many have a skewed idea of how much guys in the hunting profession make in terms of financial compensation. THE most influential and well respected hunting celebrity known to everyone on this forum just declared bankruptcy 2 months ago. Unless Tim, or any of the rest of us, is independently wealthy, I seriously doubt he could absorb 100% of the financial need Stu will require in order to make his recovery. That Tim has the ability to source additional funds for Stu, outside of what he personally earns, seems to be a positive aspect of this tragedy.

Having a little experience with insurance claims, I've never seen an insurance company just write a series of blank checks to handle expenses as they pop up. Each claim I've been involved with has only seen the insurance company pay a single, or at best a couple of intermediate checks, until a final ultimate award is agreed to, often several years after the incident, and never in a timely manner which could seriously help the recovery process. Hopefully, they WILL pay eventually. Until then, I'm less concerned with how much money Tim has personally contributed, how many hunts he goes on (since it's his job and not just a hobby or vacation), etc. instead of simply offering help for a fellow hunter in need.

Just my opinion.

Well written and thought out post. Probably too logical for some.

If in doubt, speculate. Without knowing the totality of what Tim has done in response to this incident, some conclude he has done nothing, not enough, too little to matter, too little to meet their standard of justice, etc. Then they want Tim hung out to dry because he uses his position and platform to raise money. All from people who have never been in this type situation (thankfully) but who hypothetically assert that if it were them they would sell all their worldly possessions to make the situation right or take some other action to address the issue, an easy proposition for someone wanting to feel holier than thou to assert without ever having to it. What a judgmental crowd. Rather than focus on what Tim has done, perhaps folks ought to be looking at what they have done to help Stu. But then those same persons will be the ones that respond, I did not cause the problem so why should I have to do anything . . .

Well said Todd. A lot of people trying to pick apart an incident that none of them were witness to. It's easy to say "I'm better, safer than that and it would never happen to me" but until we are faced with the exact situation, we'll never know. A very sad incident indeed and the airing of the show should have placed a different perspective on it but somehow doesn't seem to have.