quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I agree with the observer fees being an utter ripoff at $100 per day not to forget

A right bend over and take it at $200 or above

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Fellas,

I don't agree on the observer fee. The observer fee is a bargain and both Sadie and I thought that long before I got into the business. The observer gets to do everything the hunter does except pull the trigger and often on private land the observer can share the bag. I really don't see how you can bitch about that. A good PH will take special care in making sure he takes good care of the observer and that the observer feels like a full participant in the total experience. In other words the safari becomes a shared experience for both the hunter and observer so the PH is almost essentially doing a 2x1 hunt except there is only one bag. If you think the safari experience (it is far more than meals and laundry service) has little value other than the body count I can see your point but if you feel safari is something very special as I do you have to understand why I feel the observer is getting a great deal.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Fellas,

I don't agree on the observer fee. The observer fee is a bargain and both Sadie and I thought that long before I got into the business. The observer gets to do everything the hunter does except pull the trigger and often on private land the observer can share the bag. I really don't see how you can bitch about that. A good PH will take special care in making sure he takes good care of the observer and that the observer feels like a full participant in the total experience. In other words the safari becomes a shared experience for both the hunter and observer so the PH is almost essentially doing a 2x1 hunt except there is only one bag. If you think the safari experience (it is far more than meals and laundry service) has little value other than the body count I can see your point but if you feel safari is something very special as I do you have to understand why I feel the observer is getting a great deal.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana1:
About six years ago, I went on a 14 day safari to the Selous with a very well known safari operator. At the end of the hunt, it was time to settle up. The ph produced a bag full of beer and coke bottle caps, and said I owed for all the beverages.
I paid, but will never go with them again!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana1:
About six years ago, I went on a 14 day safari to the Selous with a very well known safari operator. At the end of the hunt, it was time to settle up. The ph produced a bag full of beer and coke bottle caps, and said I owed for all the beverages.
I paid, but will never go with them again!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Matt & Mark,

the reason it is termed an observer, is because that second person does NOT hunt, or you say "pull the trigger".

There is a tremendous difference between watching and hunting. If there were not, everybody would go on Photo Safaris, and you might have to find other work.

I will likely never go to OZ hunting, the fees, etc are the same pretty much, as Africa. The animals are all feral.

no offense guys, but danger, the notion that any of the Big Five will kill you if given an opportunity, is an element totally lacking in OZ.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
RichardAustin wrote:

quote:

cost of a euro

You really don't know what you're talking about.
A year ago the Euro was worth around $1.30, not it's just over or around $1.10. Try to keep up.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
RichardAustin wrote:

quote:

cost of a euro

You really don't know what you're talking about.
A year ago the Euro was worth around $1.30, not it's just over or around $1.10. Try to keep up.

Sure wish I had met you sooner, I guess you've made a fortune trading currencies and stocks. For the less astute such as myself, sometimes as much as 5 years is needed to determine financial trends. 12 months, what do you consider short term, next month?

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Fellas,

I don't agree on the observer fee. The observer fee is a bargain and both Sadie and I thought that long before I got into the business. The observer gets to do everything the hunter does except pull the trigger and often on private land the observer can share the bag. I really don't see how you can bitch about that. A good PH will take special care in making sure he takes good care of the observer and that the observer feels like a full participant in the total experience. In other words the safari becomes a shared experience for both the hunter and observer so the PH is almost essentially doing a 2x1 hunt except there is only one bag. If you think the safari experience (it is far more than meals and laundry service) has little value other than the body count I can see your point but if you feel safari is something very special as I do you have to understand why I feel the observer is getting a great deal.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Mark

Is it privately negotiated outfitter by outfitter or an understood industry norm that as an observer you will be able to shoot game and essentially have an 2 for 1 hunt on private land at the observer rate ?

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:
Good day all

I cannot speak about other countries but in Mozambique you can get a 1x1 Buffalo hunt in a prime area for less than 15K and a 2x1 Buffalo hunt for just under 13K per hunter that includes all related cost such as hunting license, import permit for one firearm, trophy documentation and transport to exporter, concession/community fees, VAT, and air charter.

A hunting truck including equipment cost about the price of 4 buffalo hunts things are much more expenses in country then the US or Europe average lifetime of a truck here is 4 years before a complete rebuilt. Interest rate is around 18 to 20% if you can get finance.

Governments increased last year all salaries for our sector by 20% (election year) all consumables and most food stuff is imported. So are most building material and all spare parts that are much more expenses plus transport / shipping cost are much higher than in “first world” countries.

Firearms and ammunition is difficult to get and at least cost double the cost.

Having a concession you have to control it, that needs manpower for 12 months a year so you have about 30 local permanent employed plus temporary workers, about 20 during the season which are relative short (4 months)

Concession owners have to maintain and build all infrastructures in the concessions which can be expenses in case of bridges and roads etc. we have to maintain an office with staff in the capital 12 months a year to take care of paperwork and admin.

PH fees have to be paid per hunting day or per month depending on agreement at least one full time permanent manager for the concession including vehicle, fuel, food for 12 months.

Travelling, time and expenses are not just to and from the concession but countless meeting with government departments, NGO’s. Association, CITES, local government, processing of poachers, communities ++++ that adds to at least 40-50 days per year.

Shot meat has to be recovered and delivered to the local hospital or orphanage that cost time and money that is a 80km round trip every time.

There are countless other expenses and time consuming processes we have to do all the time.

Then there are marketing cost shows etc

The government wants a lease each year which increased about 300% in the last 20 years, trophy license fees increased by more than 1000% in the same time. Extra cost get added by government such as 50$ PP per day for communities etc.

Fuel prices are only going up, same as wages and other expenses.

But the thing most people forget there was not one concession in Mozambique 1994 that was sustainable for hunting all had to be build up over years or decades that cost lots of money, time and frustration this was done by serious operators from their pockets and at their risk. Not from Government, NGO’s or development aid.

Now some of you say we nickel and dime hunters there might be some outfitters that try this but I am assure you most of us we don’t.

Some people want the cost broken down some want a all inclusive price ask for quotation for what you want I am sure the outfitter will provide you.

What is the point to complain about wiring money is this too much work?

As for the observer fess if you have 2000km supply line that cost money and the government still wants the 50% conservation fees and VAT. I however seeing a charge for cold drinks and beers is ridiculous.

At the end of the day if the hunts don’t cover the cost of operation there won’t be any hunting in the future. Getting rich from honest hunting that is a pipe dream forget it.

Regarding trophy quality: In a well managed concession the trophy quality only increases not so in an overhunted area that is common sense.

Sorry for the long read

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:
Good day all

I cannot speak about other countries but in Mozambique you can get a 1x1 Buffalo hunt in a prime area for less than 15K and a 2x1 Buffalo hunt for just under 13K per hunter that includes all related cost such as hunting license, import permit for one firearm, trophy documentation and transport to exporter, concession/community fees, VAT, and air charter.

A hunting truck including equipment cost about the price of 4 buffalo hunts things are much more expenses in country then the US or Europe average lifetime of a truck here is 4 years before a complete rebuilt. Interest rate is around 18 to 20% if you can get finance.

Governments increased last year all salaries for our sector by 20% (election year) all consumables and most food stuff is imported. So are most building material and all spare parts that are much more expenses plus transport / shipping cost are much higher than in “first world” countries.

Firearms and ammunition is difficult to get and at least cost double the cost.

Having a concession you have to control it, that needs manpower for 12 months a year so you have about 30 local permanent employed plus temporary workers, about 20 during the season which are relative short (4 months)

Concession owners have to maintain and build all infrastructures in the concessions which can be expenses in case of bridges and roads etc. we have to maintain an office with staff in the capital 12 months a year to take care of paperwork and admin.

PH fees have to be paid per hunting day or per month depending on agreement at least one full time permanent manager for the concession including vehicle, fuel, food for 12 months.

Travelling, time and expenses are not just to and from the concession but countless meeting with government departments, NGO’s. Association, CITES, local government, processing of poachers, communities ++++ that adds to at least 40-50 days per year.

Shot meat has to be recovered and delivered to the local hospital or orphanage that cost time and money that is a 80km round trip every time.

There are countless other expenses and time consuming processes we have to do all the time.

Then there are marketing cost shows etc

The government wants a lease each year which increased about 300% in the last 20 years, trophy license fees increased by more than 1000% in the same time. Extra cost get added by government such as 50$ PP per day for communities etc.

Fuel prices are only going up, same as wages and other expenses.

But the thing most people forget there was not one concession in Mozambique 1994 that was sustainable for hunting all had to be build up over years or decades that cost lots of money, time and frustration this was done by serious operators from their pockets and at their risk. Not from Government, NGO’s or development aid.

Now some of you say we nickel and dime hunters there might be some outfitters that try this but I am assure you most of us we don’t.

Some people want the cost broken down some want a all inclusive price ask for quotation for what you want I am sure the outfitter will provide you.

What is the point to complain about wiring money is this too much work?

As for the observer fess if you have 2000km supply line that cost money and the government still wants the 50% conservation fees and VAT. I however seeing a charge for cold drinks and beers is ridiculous.

At the end of the day if the hunts don’t cover the cost of operation there won’t be any hunting in the future. Getting rich from honest hunting that is a pipe dream forget it.

Regarding trophy quality: In a well managed concession the trophy quality only increases not so in an overhunted area that is common sense.

Sorry for the long read

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
Yes Michael, totally agree. I might be wrong but 28k in Moz for buffalo are in my perception not a competitive pricing.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana1:
About six years ago, I went on a 14 day safari to the Selous with a very well known safari operator. At the end of the hunt, it was time to settle up. The ph produced a bag full of beer and coke bottle caps, and said I owed for all the beverages.
I paid, but will never go with them again!

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:

Governments increased last year all salaries for our sector by 20% (election year) all consumables and most food stuff is imported. So are most building material and all spare parts that are much more expenses plus transport / shipping cost are much higher than in “first world” countries.



The government wants a lease each year which increased about 300% in the last 20 years, trophy license fees increased by more than 1000% in the same time. Extra cost get added by government such as 50$ PP per day for communities etc.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
From a respected and reputable outfitter in Moz:

14 day Buffalo hunt $23,896

Includes:

Daily hunting rate 14 x 1305 18,270
Concession fee 14 x 60 860
Conservation fee 14 x 60 860
1 x firearm permit 250
1 x hunting licence 350
Trophy crating and transport to closest port 200
VAT/IVA on non exports 3,106

Plus Trophy Fee:

License 1000
Trophy Fee 3000

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:

Governments increased last year all salaries for our sector by 20% (election year) all consumables and most food stuff is imported. So are most building material and all spare parts that are much more expenses plus transport / shipping cost are much higher than in “first world” countries.



The government wants a lease each year which increased about 300% in the last 20 years, trophy license fees increased by more than 1000% in the same time. Extra cost get added by government such as 50$ PP per day for communities etc.

Highlighted portions are the problem. Time will tell how the African governments respond with their fees given that fewer and fewer hunters abroad are able, or elect, to stay in the game each time the ante is upped!!

The Safari market doesn't exist in a vacuum independent of the rest of the world's economies. Quite the contrary. As a purely discretionary expense, it is tied closely to how outside markets perform. For anyone thinking commodity prices don't affect the price of safari, ask yourselves, at what point did the Russian hunters begin purchasing a significant portion of yearly quotas? Think it had anything to do with energy prices and the Russians entry into those markets?

12 months ago, energy prices were at an all time high supporting many other sectors of the economy . This has lead to African governments testing, or pushing, the market to see where the saturation point is regarding safari prices. As long as things were rolling along, there was some staying power in demand. We are now seeing that drop off a cliff with 2015 being the first safari season after the collapse of energy prices. The collapse of natural gas prices in 2008 was bolstered by the almost immediate rise in oil prices, but now that oil has tanked as well, there isn't another related energy commodity to take up the slack like there was in 08.

At some point, when there are no more hunters at the airport for the outfitters to pick up and take to the hunting camp, with half or more of the year's quota still on the table, one way or another adjustments will be made.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think there is little doubt that bookings are down . Lots of reasons . I know one company that had 100 plus days cancelled on the first day of DSC.

Lot of reasons including:

1- costs
2- aggravation factors
3-aging client base
4- the oil and gas debacle
5- overall economic conditions
6-fear of the future with all the insanity going on in the U.S. government
7- generally hunting is not as good as it used to be
8- elephant ban

I am sure there are others.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
We have to just face the facts. The Safari Hunting Business is a predominantly US fed industry.

The current administration in the U.S. has drained the pot of expendable income in the U.S. population.

Meanwhile...the "Africans" have continued to increase prices to feed their corruption.

Cost has surpassed the means to afford...pretty simple equation.

Vote Republican in 2016 if you want the industry to live to fight another day.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
We have to just face the facts. The Safari Hunting Business is a predominantly US fed industry.

The current administration in the U.S. has drained the pot of expendable income in the U.S. population.

Meanwhile...the "Africans" have continued to increase prices to feed their corruption.

Cost has surpassed the means to afford...pretty simple equation.

Vote Republican in 2016 if you want the industry to live to fight another day.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
RichardAustin wrote:

quote:

cost of a euro

You really don't know what you're talking about.
A year ago the Euro was worth around $1.30, not it's just over or around $1.10. Try to keep up.

Sure wish I had met you sooner, I guess you've made a fortune trading currencies and stocks. For the less astute such as myself, sometimes as much as 5 years is needed to determine financial trends. 12 months, what do you consider short term, next month?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:


Bud:

With all due respect, you have only hunted with one PH who charges very little for a plains game hunt. I will be the first to admit he goes the extra mile, but I think you have rose colored glasses. He does have tremendous gemsbok, but the kudu, like many other ranchers, took a major hit from rabies and are just now coming back. I passed on a few in the lower 50s, so I am sure they are on the upswing.

I have hunted with an elk outfitter the same number of times you have hunted with Jan. He gives tremendous value, but he doesn't advertise (neither does Jan), doesn't give free hunts to writers, etc. He simply sells a fantastic hunt for a super reasonable fee - much like Jan. But to characterize all elk hunting as a super deal would be disingenuous at worst and naive at best. And likewise, characterizing African hunting with a broad brush based on hunting with only one PH is no different.

So while I agree Jan has a super operation, I won't pass judgment on all African hunting based on what he offers. As great as it is, it doesn't compare to a tented safari in Tanzania - and he would be the first to admit it.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
[
Bud:
Thanks for your response to my post.

In 2012 I offered you a sincere apology for my comments. It was not acknowledged. So, again, I will apologize for my past post and my critical comments. Just because I don't use much modern technology nor hunt at water holes I had absolutely not business being critical of you or anyone who does. So, my apologies. If accepted fine, it not it is what it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Bud Meadows:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:


Bud:

With all due respect, you have only hunted with one PH who charges very little for a plains game hunt. I will be the first to admit he goes the extra mile, but I think you have rose colored glasses. He does have tremendous gemsbok, but the kudu, like many other ranchers, took a major hit from rabies and are just now coming back. I passed on a few in the lower 50s, so I am sure they are on the upswing.

I have hunted with an elk outfitter the same number of times you have hunted with Jan. He gives tremendous value, but he doesn't advertise (neither does Jan), doesn't give free hunts to writers, etc. He simply sells a fantastic hunt for a super reasonable fee - much like Jan. But to characterize all elk hunting as a super deal would be disingenuous at worst and naive at best. And likewise, characterizing African hunting with a broad brush based on hunting with only one PH is no different.

So while I agree Jan has a super operation, I won't pass judgment on all African hunting based on what he offers. As great as it is, it doesn't compare to a tented safari in Tanzania - and he would be the first to admit it.

Guilty as charged on my "rose colored glasses" when it comes to Jan and his operation. However, I disagree on your assessment of his kudu herd. I saw more trophy class kudu this June and July 2015 (50+") than I saw in 2012 and 2013 combined. I don't know why you brought up the issue of your elk hunting outfitter, as it's an apples vs oranges comparison. I didn't "pass judgement on all African hunting", I just disagreed with Cal's blanket statement badmouthing "nearly everyone"".

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:


You and I don't disagree on the kudu; I hunted there a few years ago and while I didn't see huge kudu, I did see many in the lower 50s that would grow into tremendous trophies in a few short years. So my comment about the "upswing" is what you saw this year.

Jan is fair, hard working, and pleasant to be around. And the food is the best I have ever had - including Tanzania.