quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
In 2008, at 7.5 Namibian dollars to the US dollar I paid $600 for a kudu, $500 for Gemsbok, $250 for Springbok and $300 for a warthog.

This year, at 12.4 Namibian dollars to the US dollar, I was quoted Kudu from $1400 - $1900 and Gemsbok $800 - $1600, Springbok at $600 and Warthog at $600

Were these prices at the same venue?

What is slowing me down is the incidentals.

When I first started reading around the accurate reloading pages one thinks "geeze, I can do this $2,000 for the flight, pick up a $4,000 namibian discount package, 6K I can swing that"

then one digs deeper and gets into the tipping, transportation, VAT, dip & pack, shipping, insurance and i'm sure more I am forgetting.

YES it could be done without the dip/pack, trophy shipping, taxidermy but for me if I'm going to africa for more than a photo safari I would like to bring back kudu & gemsbok (even just euro mounts for me)

I understand the reasons for the extra fees, as they are extras but still can add up quite quickly turning the 6K package into something I want to put 12K aside just to be on the safe side of things.

So although I can't answer if bookings are slow at the moment, my opinion as to why some of us living off a more "average" income aren't getting into the game just yet comes down to extras abroad and increased taxes/expenses at home

So...is it actually true that Europeans pay less than Americans for the same exact safari in relative terms in money notwithstanding currency differences?

It haS happened.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Collector:
So...is it actually true that Europeans pay less than Americans for the same exact safari in relative terms in money notwithstanding currency differences?

Pretty sure in historically european dominated markets - west africa, namibia - there are 2 price structures. One for europeans and one for americans.

Europeans pay lower and most likely dont have a tipping culture. Americans - we are the slightly dimwitted rich cousins. The russians are the new rich money.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Tim629:
What is slowing me down is the incidentals.

When I first started reading around the accurate reloading pages one thinks "geeze, I can do this $2,000 for the flight, pick up a $4,000 namibian discount package, 6K I can swing that"

then one digs deeper and gets into the tipping, transportation, VAT, dip & pack, shipping, insurance and i'm sure more I am forgetting.

YES it could be done without the dip/pack, trophy shipping, taxidermy but for me if I'm going to africa for more than a photo safari I would like to bring back kudu & gemsbok (even just euro mounts for me)

I understand the reasons for the extra fees, as they are extras but still can add up quite quickly turning the 6K package into something I want to put 12K aside just to be on the safe side of things.

So although I can't answer if bookings are slow at the moment, my opinion as to why some of us living off a more "average" income aren't getting into the game just yet comes down to extras abroad and increased taxes/expenses at home

Personally...I would like it much better if Safari's were sold all-inclusive like a Mexico resort vacation.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
In 2008, at 7.5 Namibian dollars to the US dollar I paid $600 for a kudu, $500 for Gemsbok, $250 for Springbok and $300 for a warthog.

This year, at 12.4 Namibian dollars to the US dollar, I was quoted Kudu from $1400 - $1900 and Gemsbok $800 - $1600, Springbok at $600 and Warthog at $600

Were these prices at the same venue?

They were not from the same outfitter but all were in the same area of Namibia and the 2015 quotes were from three different "budget" outfitters.

From the same outfitter:

In 2008, $600 for a kudu, $500 for Gemsbok, $250 for Springbok and $300 for a warthog.

In 2015, $1,500 for a kudu, $750 for Gemsbok, $500 for Springbok.

Day rates went from $250/Day to $625/Day

The problem with this example is the prices of 2008 are the anomaly ... warthog have always been expensive in Namibia so $300 for hogs was cheap even back then. $600 for a Kudu back then was also abnormally cheap. On the other hand, $1600 for Gemsbok in Namibia today is way over market. And you also have to look at the quotes together with the daily rates as some operators put more emphasis on the daily rates; some on the trophy fees.

You also have to keep in mind that the REASON Nam $ are now 12.4 vs the USD is partially because of inflation in Namibia has been much higher than in the USA. In particular fuel and vehicles. Also, I suspect, land prices but that' s hard to verify as Namibia's rural property market is very thin due to gov't land reform laws.

Lane

I did a package hunt with Kanana in 2013. Was the single most relaxing hunt and vacation I have done. I repaid the daily rate and trophy fees which were all included in the package.

End of the hunt I settled up for $500 for 5 cull wildebeest and gemsbok. I shot additional cull in cattle area for which I was not charged. I think I shot 15-20 animals.

I was given some ammo by Jason Bridger for which I was not charged and use of his crossbow.

The only financial transaction other than the trophy fees was the optional tipping - which was much deserved as they provided a great hunt.

Having the whole financial part of the hunt in one line item - the package price was unbelievably relaxing.

I would actually pay a premium for a complete package rate.

Also the idea of bargaining over a safari is not my style - maybe cause I suck at bargaining and doing deals. I don't like doing it when I buy a car - I use Costco service. I don't want to go to Dsc and hagle over a hunt deal.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
From the same outfitter:

In 2008, $600 for a kudu, $500 for Gemsbok, $250 for Springbok and $300 for a warthog.

This year, Kudu $1,500, Gemsbok $750, Springbok $500

Day rates went from $250/Day to $625/Day

Just bear in mind that most international outfitters have struggled with diminishing profits since 2008. 2008 prices seem cheap because it was set before the currency failed. Now that the US$ is coming back it would be nice to make a profit sometime soon.

I think the ideas on packages that you guys give is good advice and well received.

In saying that - producing set packages may be tricky in some areas where certain govt. fees may suddenly jump.

I have seen more set packages being advertised lately, including transfers, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Collector:
So...is it actually true that Europeans pay less than Americans for the same exact safari in relative terms in money notwithstanding currency differences?

Pretty sure in historically european dominated markets - west africa, namibia - there are 2 price structures. One for europeans and one for americans.

Europeans pay lower and most likely dont have a tipping culture. Americans - we are the slightly dimwitted rich cousins. The russians are the new rich money.

Mike

Interesting... First time I've ever heard this.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Collector:
So...is it actually true that Europeans pay less than Americans for the same exact safari in relative terms in money notwithstanding currency differences?

Pretty sure in historically european dominated markets - west africa, namibia - there are 2 price structures. One for europeans and one for americans.

Europeans pay lower and most likely dont have a tipping culture. Americans - we are the slightly dimwitted rich cousins. The russians are the new rich money.

Mike

Interesting... First time I've ever heard this.

My first hunt in Australia was in 2000 for buffalo (of course) with Barry Jones and Kim Walters. In camp I was reading an Australian hunting magazine and noticed their add for hunting. The price was about 50% of what I was paying and I asked about this. Back pedaling is fun to watch as Barry and Kim tried to explain the price structure but it came down to the fact that Aussie hunters pay less than the American pay scale. I accepted this as a legit business practice as it was their organization and they could do what they wanted. Interestingly, it was never brought up again AND the magazine disappeared from camp that day (I was unable to finish reading good articles!).

I would guess this is a common practice locals vs. outsiders. It is probably done in Alaska, too.
Cheers, men.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Collector:
So...is it actually true that Europeans pay less than Americans for the same exact safari in relative terms in money notwithstanding currency differences?

Pretty sure in historically european dominated markets - west africa, namibia - there are 2 price structures. One for europeans and one for americans.

Europeans pay lower and most likely dont have a tipping culture. Americans - we are the slightly dimwitted rich cousins. The russians are the new rich money.

Mike

Interesting... First time I've ever heard this.

My first hunt in Australia was in 2000 for buffalo (of course) with Barry Jones and Kim Walters. In camp I was reading an Australian hunting magazine and noticed their add for hunting. The price was about 50% of what I was paying and I asked about this. Back pedaling is fun to watch as Barry and Kim tried to explain the price structure but it came down to the fact that Aussie hunters pay less than the American pay scale. I accepted this as a legit business practice as it was their organization and they could do what they wanted. Interestingly, it was never brought up again AND the magazine disappeared from camp that day (I was unable to finish reading good articles!).

I would guess this is a common practice locals vs. outsiders. It is probably done in Alaska, too.
Cheers, men.
Cal

Cal,

No doubt residents may pay less to hunt in in their own State / Country than what foreigners do. South(ern) Africa is no exception...

But this is the first time I've heard that Outfitters have a different pricing structure for Americans to what they have for Europeans. I certainly don't and no-one I know in South Africa has either. Then again - I don't know "everyone" and maybe Namibia / West Africa operate differently. Can someone enlighten me?

I have heard of it in west Africa fairly often particularly with the French.

I heard of this years ago for west African countries and Namibia in particular. I know for a fact it occurs as I have had both European hunters and Namibian operators confirm it for me.

I always found it a bit amusing. The operators have said it is because of several things, including a difference in wants and expectations of the two client bases. Yet the same client base that is getting the cheaper rates are also the individuals who culturally do not believe in tipping to a great degree.......... while those paying the higher rates are expected to tip generously.

If one does a little digging around it is pretty easy to confirm this practice on your own. Also, I am in no way inferring that ALL operators in the respective areas do this, just that it occurs and is not uncommon.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
I heard of this years ago for west African countries and Namibia in particular. I know for a fact it occurs as I have had both European hunters and Namibian operators confirm it for me.

I always found it a bit amusing. The operators have said it is because of several things, including a difference in wants and expectations of the two client bases. Yet the same client base that is getting the cheaper rates are also the individuals who culturally do not believe in tipping to a great degree.......... while those paying the higher rates are expected to tip generously.

If one does a little digging around it is pretty easy to confirm this practice on your own. Also, I am in no way inferring that ALL operators in the respective areas do this, just that it occurs and is not uncommon.

Maybe time then for those who have first-hand experience to name the Outfitters who follow this practice so that North Americans will know who to avoid going forward...

Or so that those Outfitters who do follow this practise can come here and explain their reasons?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have heard of it in west Africa fairly often particularly with the French.

Ok Larry, I have to admit... The French is the exception - even in South Africa...

We charge more for the French over here... Especially those of us who have hunted with them before

Yes, I for another one would like someone to come on here and justify it. I would love to hear their justifications for fleecing American hunters. Hearing things like this leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me want to claim that I am European (I truly am by origin) when it comes to tipping.

Several outfitters I know have a daily rate for South African biltong hunters that is substantially lower than what they charge "foreign" hunters.

It is justified because the locals hunt without a PH (it is illegal for us to do this), use the farm's vehicles only to retrieve game, bring their own groceries, and do not shoot trophy-class animals.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have heard of it in west Africa fairly often particularly with the French.

Ok Larry, I have to admit... The French is the exception - even in South Africa...

We charge more for the French over here... Especially those of us who have hunted with them before

If you use a booking agent for European booking you should ask them - they would provide the best data on pricing. It's not transparent but no Frenchman hunting west africa pays the same rate as US hunters do. Similarly no Zim hunting or south africa Hunting locally pays the same rate as us hunters. French in former French africa have the local rate.


Don't expect anyone to come and say why Europeans have different pricing or tipping expectations ? Do Europeans tip you guys the same as Americans ? Australian same as Americans ?

Mike

This is getting off topic ... Euro vs US vs Local rates not really the question. The question is whether the "rack" rates are about to collapse due to a lack of bookings ...

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
This is getting off topic ... Euro vs US vs Local rates not really the question. The question is whether the "rack" rates are about to collapse due to a lack of bookings ...

Yes, and also, as part of the same question, what will a collapse like that mean for the Afican hunting industry?

I hope it will not become the latest victim of stupid governments, including not only African, but also American and European.

But governments hurt hard work and industry more often than they help.

And of course the indigenous people and wild game animals will be the ultimate victims.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
This is getting off topic ... Euro vs US vs Local rates not really the question. The question is whether the "rack" rates are about to collapse due to a lack of bookings ...

Check oil and natural gas prices and xop xle xme oih etfs - they will keep one updated of the carnage in the oil and gas industry and mining industry.

Oil prices and Texas matters to hunting.


Also euro/canadian/Aussie fx matters as most souh African and Zim and Tanzania hunts priced in U.S. dollar.

The rack rate might become like the list price on a car.

Just keep an eye on discounted hunt section.

Russ - you are in the hunting business - how has bookings been ? Outfitters callings you with worth unsold hunts ?

Mike

Interesting thread.

Where did it come from? Certainly not AR.

I've never seen a thread before on AR that is so thoughtful, with so many people saying something, and after reading a post by someone else, rethinking.

WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE?

Makes a wonderful change, and I'm sorry I have nothing on-topic to contribute.

Mike, there have been a few "late season" and "cancellation" offers but frankly the prices are not deeply discounted so I don't sense any panic. Remember, buff quotas in Zim are down pretty much across all of the concessions. I have never booked Tanzania so I have no insight there. Nor Zambia (although I see one buff hunt offered on AR as a cancellation at a whopping $50 discount .. and we all know that a substantial deposit would have been paid and forfeited if this were a real cancellation). And I don't bother much with plains game hunting, there is too much clutter.

If you really want a wake up call. Look what local South Africans pay to hunt the very same properties that you are hunting. The locals often are paying pennies on the dollar.

quote:

local South Africans often are paying pennies on the dollar.

Not so sure about that after having spoken to a bunch that have emigrated north and taken a liking to this neck of the woods.

Not many "ordinary" South Africans can afford to shoot buffalo.

Your statement would hold true if reference was made to Tanzanians and residents of Tanzania.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
If you really want a wake up call. Look what local South Africans pay to hunt the very same properties that you are hunting. The locals often are paying pennies on the dollar.

I will try to explain this for you in plain terms...

A South African hunter does not legally need to book his hunt through a registered Hunting Outfitter. He emails, faxes or calls the landowner (who may or may not be a registered Outfitter and who had placed a free advertisement in some local hunting magazine) and asks if he can come over for the weekend to hunt. All he needs to hunt legally is written permission from the landowner if the land he hunts on has exemption. If not; he needs to buy a license or permit for the animal (depending on the species he wants to hunt).

Conversely and according to our laws; a non-resident hunter has to book his hunt with a South African Hunting Outfitter who spent a significant amount of money to market himself abroad and sign a remuneration agreement with such Outfitter - detailing the hunt (i.e. what is expected from both parties). He cannot book direct with a landowner who is not an Outfitter although he too needs written permission from the landowner to hunt. There are many reasons for this - the primary one probably being to protect the interest of International clientele...

Many (if not most) South African hunters are not "trophy hunters". They are hunting for meat and are happy to shoot females or non-trophy males to keep their freezers full - not giving a damn about whether the animals they hunt make any record books. Many (if not most) foreign hunters are dedicated trophy hunters who wants to bag the biggest male they can find...

A South African hunter does not legally need to be guided by a PH during any South African hunt. It is expected from a South African hunter to know the game laws of our country and it is expected that he will adhere to it - therefore he does not need supervision. In most instances he will be accompanied by a local farmhand who earns $12-15p/d as a wage during his hunt. In some cases he will hunt completely on his own...

An International client on the other hand cannot be expected to know the game laws of our country. (How would a first-timer e.g. know whether he needs a TOPS permit (which has to be issued before the hunt) to hunt a Common Reedbuck? Or how would a first timer even know how to correctly identify a Common Reedbuck?) For this reason all non-resident hunters (by law) has to be accompanied by a registered Professional Hunter (who in addition to other things wrote and passed a legal exam on the topic and is also expected to know the difference between a Common Reedbuck and Mountain Reedbuck). A Professional Hunter in SA earns earns significantly more than the $12-$15p/d that a farmhand earns plus he usually has a tracker/skinner that typically earns more than farmhands.

A South African Hunter doesn't need to be picked up at the airport and transferred to the ranch. He gets into his own pick-up and drives there himself.

An international client usually needs to be met and picked up at the airport, transferred to the game ranch / hunting area and transported during the hunt in a vehicle that meets the "standards" set according to the laws of our country.

It is not a legal requirement for a South African to be hosted in accommodations that meet the "standards" set for hosting International hunters by our authorities. A South African can stay in a tent, trailer (or in a sleeping bag under the stars) with no running hot or cold water and use a shovel and the bush as a latrine. He can also feed himself... In terms of the "standards" set by our authorities, these conditions are not acceptable for hosting International clientele and certain "standards" have been set in this regard. These include the quality of accommodations, food and drinks that are offered.

A South African does not need to have his trophies dipped and packed nor does he need to have his trophies transported to a taxidermist. He loads them onto the back of the same pick-up he came in and takes them to the taxidermist himself directly after the hunt. Non-resident hunters get transported back to the airport and gets onto their flight back home. It is left up to the PH / Outfitter to get the trophies to a dip/pack agent or taxidermist. It is also left up to the PH/Outfitter to take care of the paperwork surrounding these processes...

Over and above all, we Outfitters and PH's are not in this business only to provide an African experience / holiday to International hunters... We are in this business because most if not all of us love it and because most if not all of us also need to earn a living from it. In order to earn a living from something one needs to return a profit and for this reason we charge for our services. In some cases this premium is higher than others - but it is up to the individual to decide what he/she thinks is reasonable or not.

Having said all of the above - I believe part the latter debate was not whether South Africans pay less to hunt South Africa than what International clientele is expected to pay... I thought the debate was whether some Outfitters charge less for Europeans than what they do for Americans? It is claimed that this is common practice and that might well be the case. I just thought it would be useful to have some of these Outfitters named and maybe for some of the Outfitters to state their case...

The outfitters who cater to European hunters would argue similar things the South Africa state for local hunters.

Europeans have different standards - a more relaxed hunting approach, less emphasis on trophies, less emphasis on facilities ect.

But to a large degree it is just Mutli-part pricing and price discrimination - charging american hunters more cause american hunters comping hunts to Southern Africa. American hunters used to tipping - European won't tip or tip as well as Americans cause it's not customary practice.

End of the day hunting is a business and decision to hunt is a choice amoung alternative discretionary activity and hunter/client household balance sheet.

Hunting prices have gone up more than other discretionary activity and hunters in oil and gas industry have suffered as have other hunters subject to fx moves.

Markets settle over time - it's never as smooth as textbook economics. But some on ar profess hunting is far more than a discretionary activity - hunting africa is central to their existance. They can give up over stuff to pay for higher price hunts and bear the 10-15 percent annual increase. The rest will seek alternative discretionary activity. I think in realty there are very few people who will pay any price to hunt africa - see discounted hunts in blue chip Tanzania hunting areas.

Mike

WOW!! This is a powerful and thoughtful thread...5 pages of comms in a little over 5 days!! Serious Topic....I agree.

I like the comments of Mike-Beretta but I also add to the brew the present Exchange rates quelling bookings from OTHER than US....look at Canada at now $0.76 to US$...and only last year it was above the US$...same for Aussi $ and now Eruo is sinking....
The issue that has my attention is clearly all of the HANGERS ONS that the Outfitters have let slip into the string between camp and trophies delivered to US Soil....and to be cleared before Taxidermy!! I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR 10 YEARS- THIS IS KILLING THE GOLDEN GOOSE....now it has, EH??
Dip and pack on one or two animals in Zambia $1500!! CRAZY!!
If you go to South Africa or Namibia, you have:
1. Transport to Dip, pack and Doc agent
2. Dip, pack and Doc Fees- $1-1500
A heavy box at $3-400 included!!
3. Transport to Forwrarding agent- $1-200
4. Forwarding Agents fees- Ridiculous Fees, and mostly duplicate of #2.
4. Airline Freight and Insurance, way up in price and now big embargos in place by many so concentrating service which will No Doubt INCREASE Rates due to lack of competition! More raises$$$
5. Forwarding agents put Docs in hands in International Clearance agents in US Ports of Entry....another $4-500 and NOT necessary, you can do it yourself...if you get the Docs
6.Transport to Taxidermist because most are too busy to go to airport themselves....another $1-200.
How much does this add up to....think about it..in some places MORE than DAILY FEES....and that's BEFORE TAXIDERMY....which has doubled last few years!!

The good old days are GONE....the Golden Geese aren't LAYING $$$ endlessly and frivolously like they used to....Outfitters need to be conscientious of their clients money....they have allowed all of these HANGERS ON slip into the chain of Trophies....IT HAS DOUBLED THE COST OF A HUNT!!

Now here is another factor....the Millennials, ie the NOW generation who WOULD BE the upcoming and those booking safaris....THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HUNTING OR GUNS... go to a gun show these days, all old guys, they don't travel and even in my business...they don't like big boats either....it is going to be a big challenge attracting this generation to Africa, or even out of US....they do their back pack and bike tours out of University then go to work....it is a totally different culture

My wife has been saying for years....the Sun Is Setting on African and for that matter, most hunting in general...it is out of Vogue now...and all business is having to change their products and culture to attract this new generation.....the old guys are getting older and yes, the Oil Patch is slowing many of those older spenders too....
I think we are a dieing breed...and we need to enjoy it before it disappears....what a boring existence!!
Will it change....Good QUESTION!!

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
WOW!! This is a powerful and thoughtful thread...5 pages of comms in a little over 5 days!! Serious Topic....I agree.

I like the comments of Mike-Beretta but I also add to the brew the present Exchange rates quelling bookings from OTHER than US....look at Canada at now $0.76 to US$...and only last year it was above the US$...same for Aussi $ and now Eruo is sinking....
The issue that has my attention is clearly all of the HANGERS ONS that the Outfitters have let slip into the string between camp and trophies delivered to US Soil....and to be cleared before Taxidermy!! I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR 10 YEARS- THIS IS KILLING THE GOLDEN GOOSE....now it has, EH??
Dip and pack on one or two animals in Zambia $1500!! CRAZY!!
If you go to South Africa or Namibia, you have:
1. Transport to Dip, pack and Doc agent
2. Dip, pack and Doc Fees- $1-1500
A heavy box at $3-400 included!!
3. Transport to Forwrarding agent- $1-200
4. Forwarding Agents fees- Ridiculous Fees, and mostly duplicate of #2.
4. Airline Freight and Insurance, way up in price and now big embargos in place by many so concentrating service which will No Doubt INCREASE Rates due to lack of competition! More raises$$$
5. Forwarding agents put Docs in hands in International Clearance agents in US Ports of Entry....another $4-500 and NOT necessary, you can do it yourself...if you get the Docs
6.Transport to Taxidermist because most are too busy to go to airport themselves....another $1-200.
How much does this add up to....think about it..in some places MORE than DAILY FEES....and that's BEFORE TAXIDERMY....which has doubled last few years!!

The good old days are GONE....the Golden Geese aren't LAYING $$$ endlessly and frivolously like they used to....Outfitters need to be conscientious of their clients money....they have allowed all of these HANGERS ON slip into the chain of Trophies....IT HAS DOUBLED THE COST OF A HUNT!!

Now here is another factor....the Millennials, ie the NOW generation who WOULD BE the upcoming and those booking safaris....THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HUNTING OR GUNS... go to a gun show these days, all old guys, they don't travel and even in my business...they don't like big boats either....it is going to be a big challenge attracting this generation to Africa, or even out of US....they do their back pack and bike tours out of University then go to work....it is a totally different culture

My wife has been saying for years....the Sun Is Setting on African and for that matter, most hunting in general...it is out of Vogue now...and all business is having to change their products and culture to attract this new generation.....the old guys are getting older and yes, the Oil Patch is slowing many of those older spenders too....
I think we are a dieing breed...and we need to enjoy it before it disappears....what a boring existence!!
Will it change....Good QUESTION!!

Cheers,

If the costs to get back trophies is more than the daily rate and it's not disclosed upfront there will be some seriously p@ssed of people.

I have gone to taking pictures only going forward. The only thing I like is Europeans. I have a kudu in Botswana but I am most likely going to buy a used taxidermy mount my taxidermist has (unpaid client) tear the horns outs and build a european/horn cape. All in cost for that is $500-$600. Or else I will go to restoration hardware and buy a artifical kudu skull mount for $200.

I know I am the exception but if others hunters start taking photos only. There goes the whole premium for trophies. Who cares if the kudu is 56 or 62 inches if you are only taking pictures.

The industry better clean up the opaque pricing for hunting services if it wants to retain it's client base and attract new clients.

Also this whole millennial adventures sports stuff sounds good - its just does not work when the person has discretionary income. How many of these great 20-30 year old spear fisherman are going to be going on their dream spear fishing trip at 50. They may have the money just the physical abilities are not there. That is reality. Add it to every extreme sport.

Trophy hunting bigger risk is its socially unacceptable - killing four of the big five is not polite social conversation.

I for one don't see this great risk to hunting rights in the us. To a large degree our hunting is tied to property rights. Elsewhere it is part of social fabric - alaska ect.

If the african hunting industry wants to sell expensive vacations they better follow business practices for other high end discretionary vacations. If they want to sell hunts based on the premise it is Africa and it might not be around - its sends a message that hunting does little for hunting as conservation.

Mike

I guess for some we have reached a point in life where if someone is not happy with the fact we hunt and kill animals it is their problem not ours. We can choose our friends. We are not ashamed of who we are.

People with disposable money pay these tack on fees and move on like it's no big deal

It is a big deal!!!



I looked at 3 bills of sale from a SA taxidermist that did D&P for some friends in late 2014

He charged these guys $500 US each for the wood crates !!!

$1500 for 3 wooden crates!!! Just nuts IMO

I have awakened fron the African hunting dream I once had so many years to the reality of what it really is

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
I guess for some we have reached a point in life where if someone is not happy with the fact we hunt and kill animals it is their problem not ours. We can choose our friends. We are not ashamed of who we are.

Tough to reach that point if you have to professionally answer to an alternative audience - the general public. If you are a ceo of a public company - even if you engage in hunting the big 5 you will have a low profile. Last thing you want is your hobby to impact your professional career.

How many politicians we see with dead elephants - the king of spain decided to retire early after pictures of him and a dead elephant showed up. How may hollywood movie stars you see with dead big five? Kirk Douglas safaris days are done - even he is out there saying he regretted killing animals in Africa.

We can live in our social space on AR saying congratulations on hunting reports with dead big five. That is a socially acceptable activity on AR but most likely not in everyday social and economic activity. A lot of people have to earn a living out in a world where they cannot openly disclose or display their hunting activity to customers, clients ect. They need to earn that living to hunt in Africa.

I have zero public profile - AR is as public as I get or will ever get in my life. I have my hunting pictures on AR and a few vendors display it on their website. But I don't have my picture with a lion anywhere. Simple reason last thing I want in my picture to be used by someone who is anti-hunting in their media stuff. Lions are different than buffalo or plains game in that context.

I think it is a lot easier for hunting opponents to target specific aspects of african hunting - airline shipping trophies, traveling with guns, banning trophies from entering the us than it is impacting US hunting - limiting ones ability to use ones property for hunting ect.

Same time if hunting is for meat consumption public and media is pretty receptive. You have Anthony Bourdain shooting an eland from a truck in South Africa for a TV food and travel show. On AR he would have been taken to the woodshed for shooting from a truck.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
I guess for some we have reached a point in life where if someone is not happy with the fact we hunt and kill animals it is their problem not ours. We can choose our friends. We are not ashamed of who we are.

Tough to reach that point if you have to professionally answer to an alternative audience - the general public. If you are a ceo of a public company - even if you engage in hunting the big 5 you will have a low profile. Last thing you want is your hobby to impact your professional career.

How many politicians we see with dead elephants - the king of spain decided to retire early after pictures of him and a dead elephant showed up. How may hollywood movie stars you see with dead big five? Kirk Douglas safaris days are done - even he is out there saying he regretted killing animals in Africa.

We can live in our social space on AR saying congratulations on hunting reports with dead big five. That is a socially acceptable activity on AR but most likely not in everyday social and economic activity. A lot of people have to earn a living out in a world where they cannot openly disclose or display their hunting activity to customers, clients ect. They need to earn that living to hunt in Africa.

I have zero public profile - AR is as public as I get or will ever get in my life. I have my hunting pictures on AR and a few vendors display it on their website. But I don't have my picture with a lion anywhere. Simple reason last thing I want in my picture to be used by someone who is anti-hunting in their media stuff. Lions are different than buffalo or plains game in that context.

I think it is a lot easier for hunting opponents to target specific aspects of african hunting - airline shipping trophies, traveling with guns, banning trophies from entering the us than it is impacting US hunting - limiting ones ability to use ones property for hunting ect.

Same time if hunting is for meat consumption public and media is pretty receptive. You have Anthony Bourdain shooting an eland from a truck in South Africa for a TV food and travel show. On AR he would have been taken to the woodshed for shooting from a truck.

Mike

I have my own CPA practice in Southern California and in my office I have Cape Buffalo shoulder mount, a Sable shoulder mount, Kudu and Croc skull mounts, a hippo tusk shield and an elephant ear painting. Most clients want to hear about my latest trip and look forward to seeing new stuff up on the wall. My prominently displayed trophies may have cost me a few clients, but I keep getting more and more each year. If you think about it...who do you want on your side when battling the IRS? Some sensitive new age PC type or someone who puts heads up on the wall?

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
People with disposable money pay these tack on fees and move on like it's no big deal

It is a big deal!!!



I looked at 3 bills of sale from a SA taxidermist that did D&P for some friends in late 2014

He charged these guys $500 US each for the wood crates !!!

$1500 for 3 wooden crates!!! Just nuts IMO

I have awakened fron the African hunting dream I once had so many years to the reality of what it really is

It's not just the antis and greenies that are killing the African hunting industry.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
People with disposable money pay these tack on fees and move on like it's no big deal

It is a big deal!!!



I looked at 3 bills of sale from a SA taxidermist that did D&P for some friends in late 2014

He charged these guys $500 US each for the wood crates !!!

$1500 for 3 wooden crates!!! Just nuts IMO

I have awakened fron the African hunting dream I once had so many years to the reality of what it really is

It's not just the antis and greenies that are killing the African hunting industry.
Cal

Curious Cal, do you think it is the vendors and outfitters or us as hunters? I lay the blame at our feet. If we are prepared to let the outfitters and vendors engage in some of these practices, shame on us not shame on them. Sort of like a sports fan complaining about the salaries of professional athletes and then dropping $200 for a ticket to a game. It starts with us. If we want this to stop, we have to stop facilitating it.

Mike: It is many faceted and blame lies with all involved:
Greedy PHs
Greedy booking agents
Greedy camp staff
Taxidermists in Africa who know they won't see the client again
Freight agents who charge what they can
Dip and pack personnel
Hunters who pay and complain
Hunters who pay and don't complain
Government official (here and there) who don't understand, are just plain stupid, or who take bribes to do what they are supposed to do anyway.
Greenies and antis who tell one side of the story
The African mentality both white and black, who live for today and take all they can today and screw tomorrows as future planning is unknown to that mentality.

In 20 years, when I'm 80, there will be no international hunting in Africa. It will come from many directions. Pressure from the antis to the African governments to stop hunting, anti firearms laws in the US, airlines who won't carry trophies or firearms. We have "drug free and gun free school zones--what will happen after the next shooting when a politician drafts a bill to make air ports "gun free zones?"
Cal