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Merry Christmas to our Accurate Reloading Members
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting A standardGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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One of Us |
I have No Dog in this fight, I am simply curious as to who sets the "Standards", who enforces them and where can a person pick up a written copy of said standards? Naïve I guess but I have always viewed it as anyone, anywhere spending $$$$$$ that goes into the hunting industry is a Good Thing. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Ones checkbook. No money no african hunting for anyone going to africa to hunt. Its a discretionary vacation - has all the high standards of a discretionary vacation. Access to money being the main one. Mike | |||
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A bunch of us have been trying to find out who makes the standards or what a proper hunt is. I have come to the understanding a proper hunt is one that takes place anywhere other then SA and must cost more to be a trophy hunt. Hell cant even get a true answer to what good the post has done putting down this hunt. The comments now of some making like there better then SA ph's because they can follow a ph from another country and do as there told equals there better hunters is very funny. I know I feel much better about hunting SA now because I am learning the lions,buff,ele and the rest of the big 5 cant kill you there. The fencing in SA has stopped all those animals from being able to hurt hunters and there just not the same in SA as in other countries. You hunt SA your not hunting your walking around because some say so. My bad you drive around because you cant walk in SA if you want everyone hunts the same way. All the tv shows were you see guys driving around in zim or moz that is all special effects added they only walk from camp and they cover all that land on foot. What some people will say to make themselves feel like they have better times or just better hunts is very funny anymore. | |||
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| Administrator |
If you are unable to see some of the points raised here, with all the explanations posted, then I don't think anyone can help you. | |||
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There was no help here for me from the ones your talking about. The shame is there is more then a few who could teach me something on this site but taking cheap shots at SA phs or hunt done in SA is a lesson I will pass on. | |||
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Saeed, with all due respect, that is exactly what we are saying to you. I can explain it TO you, but I can't understand it FOR you. The main complaints by YOU and others is that Adrian misrepresented the hunt and shot immature animals. Yet the truth is that YOU and the OP are dead wrong. There is nothing in Adrian's post that even came close to a hint that it was anything other than what it was. He posted some pics of some young guys that enjoyed a hunt. Maybe Adrian's biggest mistake was assuming the big macho professional hunters could tell the difference between a bull and a cow. Since you guys can't tell your heads from your butts, that must be Adrian's fault. The fact that you all can't tell an adult cow from a young bull is hilarious and you are all too prideful to admit you need a tracker to tell you all the difference between a bull and a cow so the PH can tell the client to shoot it. lol. Because of your pride, you will never admit you were/are wrong. Since, you are obviously never wrong, you must continue to sternly demand that Adrian is wrong. Pride is a sad thing to watch. Further, what Andrew did was a pretty lousy thing to do. I've never met him. Maybe he is a gentleman, but I seriously doubt it. If he was, he would already have admitted his foolish error and apologized. Adrian was minding his own business with a post on AH. He's never been to AR, never posted anything here but he was dragged onto this site so that Andrew could humiliate him. Maybe Andrew just needed to feel all superior that day, I don't know why. Some men feel inferior if they fail at something. Some men feel inferior if they have erectile dysfunction. Some men feel inferior if they have small willies. Some feel inferior if they look at their life and realize they haven't accomplished something in life. Many men feel inferior for various reasons. The thing is that too often when men feel small and insignificant about themselves, they think they can appear bigger to themselves and to others by tearing someone else down and humiliating them to make them look smaller. or they buy a red sports car. or they kill something, measure it and brag about it and claim no one else's hunting experience is real because it's not like theirs. Many men sport their wealth to make up for insecurities. The difference? I imagine I will never afford to have one of your "proper" hunts, but I'm not jealous of what you do. I don't make fun of you. I don't put you down. I have no envy. I fully realize that money can buy a person experiences and opportunities in life that a person of more meager finances can never afford. It does not make the wealthy man a better hunter or more of a man. Been to Africa twice, never on one of your "proper" hunts, though. Some people here at home are ecstatic to see our photos and ask a lot of questions because they are happy FOR us that we got to do something like this. For the ones that appear jealous to me, I play it down and make them comfortable. I show humility and joke about following a guy around thru the bush while HE is hunting and then lets me pull the trigger. The reason I do this is that I try to be a gentleman. I try to make other man feel better about themselves. Sometimes I do this by putting myself down and showing humility. Humility is an important part of being a gentleman. A gentleman treats others with dignity and respect. A gentleman doesn't tear people down to build himself up. A gentleman is not quick to shoot off his mouth. A gentleman doesn't bandy around the term "well I got the balls to........(fill in the blank)" but it's usually to shoot off one's mouth. A gentleman is cordial. And, when a gentleman shows his butt and acts ungentlemanly, he is quick to admit his error, apologize, and make things right. It may take a pair of balls to make a human being a male person, but it takes much more than that to be a man. And it takes even much more than "being a man" to be a gentleman. And, if you can't understand that, you either are unwilling to understand it or don't have the capacity to understand it. | |||
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After reading 5 pages of this, just getting back from Zambia... I have shot animals on a game farm, and in fact did that on this trip in Zambia in addition to wild hunting. So, what is real hunting? It is what the hunter thinks it is, but he should realize others may not agree with him, so it is best to state the facts of the situation clearly in an open setting, especially if one is inclined to being sensitive. If one is worried about one's professional reputation being sullied it is even more essential. Personally, a cow buffalo hunt can be a real hunt, as can a game farm hunt- but it seems somewhat disingenuous to claim a "buffalo hunt" when one was hunting cows knowing that most folks read buffalo hunt and think bull hunting. It is somewhat weird for a PH who presumptively works hunting buffalo to lump them together knowing that most, if not all, the audience thinks this way. As to the comments about what the pictures are and that someone should be able to tell the difference, yes, but... I may not be able to say bull, cow, steer with a glimpse- but I can say possible shooter/nonshooter at a relatively quick glance if I am hunting bull buffalo. I may well have fallen in to error in this case buy a quick "nonshooter" evaluation in reading it without the rest of the info. As to the personal attack aspect of this, on both sides, really, there are too many pissing contests in the world now. After more details came out, it rapidly became a dead issue to me except for the level of disingenuousness and the personal attacks. Yes, the South African hunting industry gets attacked wrongly a lot, but the level of bad behavior on the part of the SA hunting industry is also higher (IMO) than the rest of Africa, and probably on par with what we have here in the US. One of the reasons I like this site is the lack of commercialization of the site. No sponsored outfitters that are allowed special access or what not. And folks may not be the best about asking people to clarify their statements politely here, but it is an internet site... with all the anonymous names, you need to expect some retarded behavior. Of course, since I am one of the "thick walleted elite" (really more a matter of personal choices and priorities IMO) my opinion is probably worthless in modern america... | |||
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Nope! That is not what I have been saying all along. He could have shot any animals he wanted - cows, young or otherwise. But, he never mentioned anything like that in his original post. All he said was he had a great buffalo hunt. I tried to look at the photos, but was not able. But that is really beside the point. If had mentioned that all they were after was cows and young because the farmer who owns them said so, there would have been no argument from my side. The original post made it all sound as if they had a normal buffalo hunt. And talking about the South African hunting industry, it might be a good idea for you yourselves to sort it out. Because there are very bad apples amongst you - I know, there are bad apples among all nationalities represented b y PHs - but there seems there a lot more from South Africa. From all the shenanigans in Zimbabwe to those who specialize in capturing - or buying - so called "trophies" and transporting them as required for those who want their names in the SCI record book. You know, the ones transporting captured "trophies" by plane or converted oil tankers. | |||
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HUNT REPORTS "just don't do them". Not here, not there or anywhere unless you want to suffer the wrath of those who are "better than you, have more money than you, claim their ethics are better than yours, claim their style of hunting is the only way, etc. At the end of the day you will always come up the loser by doing so. This has been proven here on AR time after time, after time, after time. Poster beware would be a good thing to heed. Happy 4th of July everyone!! Larry Seller SCI(International)Life Member R8 Blaser Sabatti "trash" Double Shooter | |||
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I only have one golden rule of hunting..If its legal and you followed the laws and regulations.....Then I'm happy for you, whatever you shot. STICK TOGETHER  | |||
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There are enough experienced hunters who I know via AR and have met personally who have hunted with Andrew. I would hunt with Andrew and hopefully will in the very near future. I have much more faith in Andrew - just look at the AR hunt reports before I go hunt with some Adrian who specializes in shooting chattel in 12,000 high fenced acres. Why don't you post some of your hunt reports and african pictures ? Glad I visit AR with all its rudeness than AH with its ads for canned South African chattel shoots. You should also realize your brooks brother how to be a gentleman http://www.brooksbrothers.com/...956D,default,pd.html is a marketing book. You seem to quote from it like Mao's Little Red Book  Mike | |||
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Andrew may be all those things and more but he was off base in my view to start this ridiculous tempest in a tea pot. Hard to see how it does his reputation and standing any good. Mike | |||
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Just remember that hunt report was posted on ah not here. People over there are not so quick to judge others. For all those that think Andrew is great none of us are saying not to hunt with him. The point being missed is no good comes from other hunters bashing other hunters. That part has got lost in all the rest of the bs. No one was asking to be saved from a bad hunt or complaining about a hunt. They decide to share what was a great to hunt to them and the fact is the hunt matched the title of the thread. 3 buff hunted and 3 buff taken by happy hunters. Twist it any way you want but those are the facts. Is ah for everyone well no it not just like ar is not. You take the sites for what they are and the shame is they are both for us hunters but we all still act like kids. If some common sense was used we could talk and share hunts with each other not always worrying about who took a better trophy or if we liked ever hunt being done. For those that can afford to hunt stuff I cant god bless you enjoy it and share the info with us all. Just stop telling the rest of us our trips are not hunts because you say so. That is getting really old fast. | |||
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The only reason there are so many so called bad apples in RSA is because there are 10 times more guys over here running safaris or shoots as it is called on AR but on A % basis I think it will even out, the 2 times that me and my clients were screwed on a hunt was ironically out side of South Africa! Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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If you don't want to hunt in South Africa.... So be it. But to say our PHs are charlatans and not even PHs is just insulting and shows how immature and childish you are. If there is a bad PH in SA,we are also just as quick to distance ourselves from them. And please Saeed, don't force your style of hunting down everyone's throats. Larry Shores ( an experienced individual) hunted a buff in SA and found it sporting. By my definition a buff shot at two hundred yards is not a buff hunt... It's just shooting practice. You seem to have double standards Sir. We are all hunters at the end of the day enjoying a sport we love. If someone believes in something you don't, it's best to just walk away and let it go... I think your time will be better spent trying to lift the trophy ban on Emirates Airlines.... Just like how the so called 'PHs' are trying to do with SAA. | |||
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And Happy 4th of July to all you guys from the USA! God Bless! | |||
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I’m glad Andrew started this thread, because – as a client – it underscores some very important aspects of booking an African safari. 1. Do your homework before booking. Know what kind of hunt – game ranch vs “real deal” hunt, cull hunt vs trophy hunt, etc - and the trophy quality you’ll be getting for your money! 2. Get references on you prospective outfitter and PH. Do they deliver on what they promise? And, don't be taken in by misleading ads or reports. Find out what really is going on. 3. Shop around for pricing, but remember…you get what you pay for! Be willing to pay full price for SCI record book trophies. Remember top mature trophies are becoming rarer, yet demand remains, and supply-and-demand dictate price. 4. Know yourself, what you can afford, and decide what you want. Then communicate clearly to the outfitter/PH what your expectations are. Then the outfitter/PH can price the hunt for you, and then, you decide if you can afford it. 5. If during the safari, the quality is not what you expect…tell the outfitter/PH before it’s too late. 6. Finally, if the outfitter/PH deliver a fantastic hunt with all expectation met, then be willing the tip accordingly. Regards and happy 4th of July, AIU | |||
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Mike I agree with you on this thread and I have stated earlier it's the clients dollars on a very discretionary vacation - that sets any standard cause if one does not have the money the the fact is one is not hunting africa. That is reality. I also don't think starting this thread impacts Andrew professional reputation in anyway as implied by the person I responded too. I can just read Frostbit, Gibbs505 or Faisals hunt reports. To me they carry far more weight if I was to spend my money on a African hunting vacation. Happy 4th July to everyone and lets hope reality prevails in Greece or we may have a European version of Uncle Bob Zimbabwe soon. Mike | |||
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I have posted my hunt reports on AH and 24 hr campfire, but I don't think I have on here. at least not in detail I never had a reason not to do so, but never really felt like doing it either. I guess I really just hadn't developed relationships here as much as I have on the other 2 sites. I didn't figure anyone would be interested.
thanks for the laugh. pretty funny. I've never read the book. I am sure I didn't quote from it. I can't say I am cultured, so I doubt the kind of "gentleman behavior" I am speaking of is what that book is about. The bottom line is, If you feel more important by making someone else seem less important, then that is ungentlemanly of a person. | |||
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Let's end this rather irrelevant thread on a laugh. I have always found the books a chuckle when I am at the cash register. I will read your hunt report. I am a member of ah but not there often need to learn how to navigate the site. As a blanket rule I like more hunt reports even ones written by ph as native advertising. Mike | |||
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We all make mistakes. How we respond to those mistakes defines our character. Is it good character to take a post from one website to criticize it on another? Is it good character to start a post, be critical and walk away from the thread? Is it good character to have a superior attitude and criticize a competitor and then not apologize? At some level we all have finite funds to hunt with and have to make decisions on who we will spend our money with. Zambia is getting close to the top of my next hunt list. Even above great hunting reports, character defines who I hunt with. | |||
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If you like hunt reports you are in the wrong place The report sections are on life support and in critical condition Put a hunt report here....or there....be aware you'll piss someone off A lot has changed around here.....and not for the good . . . . Damn!!!! These days even the classified sectuon is only good for wallets, books and used cowboy boots ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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While I think this whole thread to much ado about nothing, all this noise about not doing hunt reports because someone might be offended about something in the report or critical of some aspect of the hunt is a bunch of crap. If your willingness to do a hunt report is based on no one having anything critical or offensive to say, you are either doing something you are ashamed of or not completely comfortable with or have way too thin skin. I do hunt reports to share information and share the experience with friends I have met on this forum. If someone wants to get their panties in a wad over something about my report, that is their problem not mine. Mike | |||
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I have seen some pretty good hunt reports - Subsailor74 Save for one. I was going to be on that hunt and missed it for work and personal reasons. I value that hunt report more than my non refunded South African plane ticket. I dont think the Admiral would give a rat ass if anyone nitpicked anything he or Mike Payne did. Also he has 5-6 hunt reports from hunting with Mike Payne - that to me is the best reference for Mike Payne. I would say the same about the hunt reports for Andrew or for CMS or Labat or Duckworths or Jason Bridger and the list goes on AR. Same guys hunting over and over with same PH - same high quality results. The Zim guys in the Save have been operating thru hell and have still managed to deliver great hunts for clients (but most likely not for their checkbooks). If one is that sensitive to other people opinions of their hunts - one is not very satisfied with their hunts or something else. No one who nitpicks wrote a check for your hunt. The hunter wrote the check - the check and the opportunity cost of getting to Africa is all on the hunter. The nitpicking is irrelevant to the hunter - might not be to the outfitter. Unless one was totally taken for a ride - shoot a cattle killing lion on a plains game hunt for a upgrade ect. I wish more hunters who had crappy hunts posted something. I have taken a outfitter to task for a crappy Alaskan hunt. Is this an easy forum - no. It is worth something - yup. Look at the $$$ spent by members on this forum. Tells you something - where to hunt, with whom to hunt and where not to hunt. To sell me a hunt outside of Save Safaris and Jason Bridge/Tholo/Kanana is a very high bar. If I hunt elsewhere it will be primarily driven of AR hunt reports and AR member experience. I wish there was something like AR for fishing. Mike | |||
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But can hunt reports survive if people are being constantly attacked? Why give a hunt report if someone or several someone's openly attack the reporter because the report did not meet THEIR Standards. Someone that is able to go on Safari every year or every other year is going to view things a lot differently than a first timer, especially if the hunt they are reporting on may be their ONLY hunt ever to Africa. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Who cares about someone else standard - they did not pay for your hunt. Its just their opinion. Now if the opinion has some truth that makes the hunter question the quality of the hunt - so be it. Your cattle raiding lion was a scam - okay you/the hunter was taken - he now feels bad for being taken. We cannot baby and keep reality away from thin skinned people. The world is a harsh place. The reason you want hunt reports - good and bad - is it informs other hunters. Especially new ones going out the first time. Also hunt reports are a fun way to share a experience as are hunt dvds. I enjoy someones hunt dvds more than any commercial program. My standard of hunting is irrelevant to most people - I like eland more than buffalo. I wont shoot a elephant or a giraffe. I support canned lion hunting - give the chinese their bones. I think hunting with camp rifles sucks and I think taxidermy is a joke and waste of money. Why should my opinion or standard matter to anyone. Its matters to me and probably the guy trying to sell me a hunt. Mike | |||
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Thanks for sending me your hunt report on AH. I really enjoyed reading it. Mike | |||
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AMEN!!!!!!    Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Mike nailed it.. | |||
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Next we are going to have to tell people we are not going hunting at all, just because we are scared! To hell to those who do not like it. It is the individual's money, and he can bloody well do with it as he pleases. Exactly like in this case. The three individuals who shot these three buffalo enjoyed themselves, and that is the whole point. Just tell it as it is! | |||
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Well, getting called an Ass Kisser, is not really as bad as what some have said about me, but, Saeed nailed it on the head. I really do not see how Hunters expect to see hunting for any species remain viable if all we can do is attack each other over how the individual paying for the hunt decides what they are wanting in terms of a hunt. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Maybe the 3 hunters didn't feel the need to further explain themselves, was it not suffice of them just to say... " we scored 3 buff on our 'Buffalo hunt'.....? But you are demanding they tell you and the world more?!!....  Why, bcause rash minded dummies can't resist jumping to false conclusions? (just ask Stu Taylor about rash dummies and their false accusations on AR) There is no misleading by them, since they never misdirected people by claiming it to be a 'trophy hunt', or 'meat hunt', 'canned hunt' etc it was simply described as a 'buffalo hunt' ....I don't see any lies or deception in that. SAEED - Please educate the forum, what about the following is not hunting?.... from the AH thread:
Q./ when I'm in the CapeYork Peninsular hunting wild boars, the property owner says I can shoot some his unwanted scrub cattle If I want to, no charge, Is that considered 'scrub cattle hunting'?...or is that term false,misleading or deceptive? | |||
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An old cowboy went to a bar and ordered a drink. As he sat sipping his whiskey, a young lady sat down next to him. She turned to the cowboy and asked, "Are you a real cowboy?" He replied, "Well, I've spent my whole life on the ranch, herding horses, breaking colts, working cows, fixing tractors, going to rodeos, cleaning my barn, mending fences, and branding cattle, so I guess I am a real cowboy" She said, "I'm a lesbian. I spend my whole day thinking about women. As soon as I get up in the morning, I think about women. When I shower, I think about women. As I watch TV, or even eat, I think about women. Everything seems to make me think about women." The two sat sipping in silence. A short time later, a man sat down on the other side of the old cowboy and asked, "Are you a real cowboy?" He replied, "I always thought I was, but I just found out that I'm a lesbian." Regards, Chris Troskie Tel. +27 82 859-0771 email. chris@ct-safaris.com Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA www.ct-safaris.com https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4 | |||
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Saeed thanks for your last report! I must agree with you on that one! maybe he did tell it they way it was and got a beating for it, but thanks for the last post!!! I think we can all move on from this, BUT there should be Apologies especially from the first responders on page!!.hell there was even A RSA PH jumping on the wagon claiming they might have been once " chuck out" NO breeding done behind the red line anymore buddy... Like clients should get to know everything about a hunt they go on, I would suggest we all get the facts in future before we criticize anyone. I love this side for what it is I am not on the " other side" I have never posted pictures, hunt reports, or offered hunts on AR nor have a ever tried and promote my business like Allot of the guys on here. All I am hoping for is that we will never have a 7 page discussion on something like this again!! Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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Thumbs up for Saeed's last post.I get the impression that with this post cheap shots are dealt to discredit " some" and in the process to credit "others". After all everybody are catering for the same client. | |||
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my favorite post in this thread.!!! I will share a line from my sermon this morning. I was preaching on revenge and quarreling within a marriage. I spoke for a minute about fighting over "who wears the pants in the family." My statement after that was "I have noticed that the more days a couple fights over who is wearing the pants, the fewer nights they will spend with neither of them 'wearing pants'." Probably not as funny as your joke, but was kind of funny, for some, to hear a preacher say it in the pulpit. lol | |||
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Sadly, not everyone is catering for the same clients. I have personally seen clients who have absolutely no business going on a hunt. They are nothing but a disgrace to our sport. And the same applies to some so called professional hunters too. | |||
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Personally, this refers to what I see as the crux of the issue and the source of a great deal of the more heated disagreement on AR and in the hunting community in general. We are all upset because we see a key element of our way of life threatened and, therefore, we tend to lash out. Where we often fall out between each other is in seeking to describe the true source of the threat. My feeling is that the real danger is from ourselves or, more accurately, the perception of our actions. This is why I despise the fact that Sullivan promotes videos of him and his clients behaving like total idiots. It is horribly selfish of him as it adds to the threat to a way of life that most of us wish to safeguard for future generations. I don't hate Sullivan, I don't know the man so how could I? But I do hate the wilful damage he does to our pursuits for the purposes of self-aggrandisement or money or whatever. We have to stop falling out with each other and start fixing the problem. Holding ourselves and each other accountable to the highest standards of sporting behaviour is job one because that is the area over which we have total control. Backing an organisation capable of effective political and public lobbying is job two because we need to inform marginal opinion of the enormous net benefits to wildlife and habitat inherent in our activities. Politicians make the laws and politicians are whores. If they felt that banning air would get them elected they would campaign for it so we need to be lobbying them very hard and constantly. | |||
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+++ | |||
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It sounds good, but there in lies the problem. Everyone that hunts has their own, individual set of beliefs/concepts/feelings as to what hunting means to themselves, Personally. Hunting is not a one size fits all activity. Concentrating on issues such as poaching is something all hunters should be working together on. But trying to regulate thru Group ethics, such things as shooting animals at a waterhole or over a bait, is not something hunters should attempt. Just my opinion, nothing more, but in this day and time, just getting everyone to stay within the realm of legal methods is a big enough job. If a hunter is operating within the legal parameters established for a specific area or species, the rest of us need to learn to live with that. It does not mean we have to like it, nor does it mean that we should not express our opposition, but expecting others to live by our own/individual set of standards simply is not going to happen. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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