quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Howard

People are still out their money for now. But the difference is that Stuart has not said that he is going to walk away from these orders. That is the big difference.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Howard

Yea, it seems like they just let anybody into law school these days doesn't it?

One thing that I did get out of it was that you aren't going to get anywhere without having one disinterested Judge to rule on the evidence. Here, we have 30 or 40 judges, many who are interested, ruling on the evidence.

Another thing I learned, that I tell clients everyday, is that no matter how much you want to, going to court isn't going to change what happened yesterday. All its going to do is maybe change what might happen tommorow.

No great success every came without a lot of bumps in the road.

quote:

22wrf, give it up. You're making a complete fool of yourself

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

Speaking of money refunds were promised to go out on the 8th. The should have been received by now.

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
Deposits have been returned, ceritified priority mail.
This business is far from over. Some here think this is my ruin. I see it as starting point for better customer service.
We are getting a full fourth axis for our machining center which will allow faster production of the bolt and receiver.
All that feel wronged here please accept my apologies.
I will be fucusing my attention to timely high quality deliveries.
from now on my goal is a Great gun on time.
Sincerly
Stuart Satterlee

quote:

Deposits have been returned, ceritified priority mail.
This business is far from over. Some here think this is my ruin. I see it as starting point for better customer service.
We are getting a full fourth axis for our machining center which will allow faster production of the bolt and receiver.
All that feel wronged here please accept my apologies.
I will be fucusing my attention to timely high quality deliveries.
from now on my goal is a Great gun on time.
Sincerly
Stuart Satterlee

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
Deposits have been returned, ceritified priority mail.
This business is far from over. Some here think this is my ruin. I see it as starting point for better customer service.
We are getting a full fourth axis for our machining center which will allow faster production of the bolt and receiver.
All that feel wronged here please accept my apologies.
I will be fucusing my attention to timely high quality deliveries.
from now on my goal is a Great gun on time.
Sincerly
Stuart Satterlee

Stuart,

This is the best answer I have seen from you so far, and I for one wish you the best of luck.

Regardless of how good your products are, only satisfied customers can make your business prosper.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
George

With all due respect, I don't see how you can be a moderator. You don't read posts carefully and clearly. You only see what you want to see.

If you would read what I had to say, I have repeatedly stated over and over again that I agreed that this is certainly all about bad business decisions, products paid for and not delivered, etc. I have stated that I would be pissed too if I was in the same position as some of these guys are in, including both makers who schedule time, and those who wanted to use a Satterlee action for their next big game hunt. Stuart has made some bad business decisions, one of which was to be undercapitalized. I recall a long time ago on this forum suggesting that he incorporate and build up some capital.

Nevertheless, if you would READ what I have said, I am just stating that many on here have taken this farther that it really is becasue the plain and simple fact of the matter is that Stuart has repeatedly stated that eventually he intends to make these orders good and pay back those who don't want their action anymore.

All I am saying, as a guy who has actually talked with Stuart, and emails with Stuart, along with a few others, is that I believe him.

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
Deposits have been returned, ceritified priority mail.
This business is far from over. Some here think this is my ruin. I see it as starting point for better customer service.
We are getting a full fourth axis for our machining center which will allow faster production of the bolt and receiver.
All that feel wronged here please accept my apologies.
I will be fucusing my attention to timely high quality deliveries.
from now on my goal is a Great gun on time.
Sincerly
Stuart Satterlee

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Jeez Blue how can someone smart enough to get through law school be so dense when it comes to real life issues?

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
DUANE
you are so right there, and it does not help the custom gun makers like you and many others , when a another "custom gun builder" like EMPIRE RIFLES owes SATTERLEE ARMS over $10,000 and refuses to pay up, and when they do it takes 6-8 mounths to pay and then its only a part payment
at present as im led to belive empire ownes another 3 companies substancial amount of $$$ and are not paying up!
put your self in stuarts situation you do the work , expect to get paid and then your not paid....how much stress would this put on your business???

again ,if only stuart had communicated with his customers ...again ,i say it ,i hope he learns
Daniel

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Maybe its time to talk a little bit about Mr. George Sandman from Empire Rifles. He seems to be the one that is the crook here.

quote:

from George Sandmann:

Would you be willing/able to add to the thread, right at the point where I am being called a crook,(George Sandmann) that you have checked in with me, that the allegation is unfounded, and that my direct line is 603.469.3152 if anyone has any questions?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Maybe its time to talk a little bit about Mr. George Sandman from Empire Rifles. He seems to be the one that is the crook here.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M 98:
And now some of the true facts start to come out.

Saterlee did a bunch of work for Empire Rifles. Saterlee relies on that money coming in to support his family and his business. The money doesn't come in. Saterlee then needs to take more deposits than he should have taken in order to make up for lost revenue. And Saterlee gets terribly behind on his work.
Poor business decisions for sure, mostly because Stuart is probably undercapitalized and undermanned in his business. But surely not the crook that many here have painted him out to be.

Maybe its time to talk a little bit about Mr. George Sandman from Empire Rifles. He seems to be the one that is the crook here.

quote:

He seems to be the one that is the crook here.

quote:

Are you not the one talking about "truth" here. How do you know any of what you just alleged is true?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Are you not the one talking about "truth" here. How do you know any of what you just alleged is true?

Ol'Howard

I don't know if its true. I did not state it as true. Nor did I allege it.

READ what I said. "MAYBE its time to talk about" is an inquiry asking for discussion of the allegation. He "SEEMS" means I am not sure from what I read and therefore I would like to hear more information about this allegation.

(Maybe - Perhaps, Possibly)
Websters New World Dictionary

(Seem - to appear to be, apparent, not actual)
Websters New world Dictionary

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Howard

I cannot disagree with that. I admit to a poor choice of words. I should have said, " And now some new evidence starts to come out."

My apologies.

Ms. Satterlee has asked that this be done.

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
In my previous post i did say stuart would return deposits, his show is far from going under, the most unfortunate result is that some customers have been so soured by this experience that they droped the whole actions, which is understandable .
On the other hand this is the best thing to have happened to SATTERLEE ARMS , Stuart is going /is restructring his time schedule, which is going to be customer focused , meaning a product delived more or less on schedule, meaning more happy customers, and a happier AR GANG

quote:

Dear Sir: Again with ad hominim attacks. There are three sides to every story, only one of which is the truth. Stu has been paid for everything he has delivered. Glad to discuss anytime, to refresh my direct line is 603.469.3152. --George Sandmann, President, Empire Rifles.

quote:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.

Other common subtypes of the ad hominem include the ad hominem circumstantial, or ad hominem circumstantiae, an attack which is directed at the circumstances or situation of the arguer; and the ad hominem tu quoque, which objects to an argument by characterizing the arguer as acting or arguing in accordance with the view that he is arguing against.

Ad hominem arguments are always invalid in syllogistic logic, since the truth value of premises is taken as given, and the validity of a logical inference is independent of the person making the inference. However, ad hominem arguments are rarely presented as formal syllogisms, and their assessment lies in the domain of informal logic and the theory of evidence.[1] The theory of evidence depends to a large degree on assessments of the credibility of witnesses, including eyewitness evidence and expert witness evidence. Evidence that a purported eyewitness is unreliable, or has a motive for lying, or that a purported expert witness lacks the claimed expertise can play a major role in making judgements from evidence.

Argumentum ad hominem is the inverse of argumentum ad verecundiam, in which the arguer bases the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it. Hence, while an ad hominem argument may make an assertion less compelling, by showing that the person making the assertion does not have the authority, knowledge or position they claim, or has made mistaken assertions on similar topics in the past, it cannot provide an infallible counterargument.

The argumentum ad hominem is a genetic fallacy and red herring, and is most often (but not always) an appeal to emotion.

It does not include arguments posed by a person which contradict the person's actions, for example:

If person X argues that touching water will cause death, and then person X touches water, then it is reasonable to assume that what person X said is incorrect and that they knew it to be incorrect at the time of making the statement.