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No, you glib ignorant son of a bitch! I've been along for the ride for the past 22 months and it's not been fun at all. I want my deposit back plus 8% interest. That's a whole lot cheaper than you could ever borrow from the bank. You owe me $1,548 and I expect to see it by February 14th. Happy Valentine's Day! ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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I'm not gonna make any friends here but what the hey. This reminds me of the stock market. Everyone hears about a new offering and wants in. They snatch up some shares in HOPES that they make a big return. Same here to some extent. My take it that it would be wise not to put down money up front and instead wait until the maker actually brings a pruduct to market. We've seen this over and over. Not that long ago it was MRC using your deposits as start up money. But if you do "invest" then realize that as in investing, there are risks. When I got into gunmaking years ago an old timer told me never take more than a third as a deposit. He said otherwise you have no motivation to ever complete the project. Well, that was good advice both for me and my clients. He and I eventually went to 50% but that still left a nice carrot dangling out there. I'm appalled at those that want all the money up front or those that keep asking for more before the project is done. That should never happen unless the work that was initially requested is substantially altered. Just my 2 pennies. | |||
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http://www.judgejudy.com/# _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Gladfully I have no dog in this either but I've been in several similar situations with other talented gunsmiths. Unfortunately this seems to be common when it comes to getting top quality work. I hope like most of these instances it is mainly a matter of time and things work out favorably for those involved. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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Rem 721, I have to disagree. This is not like investing at all. There are many many things out of the control of a company in which you buy stock. There are very few things that are out of the gunmakers control. Plus people buy stock in order to make a profit. These folks are paying for a product. I undertsand that Stuart had some equipment failures...but how long did that set him back? a month? two months? three months? Quite frankly, if any gunmaker cannot predict when he can deliver plus or minus some reasonable margin, then he simply should tell his clients... "Send me a deposit and I have no clue as to when I will actaully produce your work." In effect that is what appears to have occured here. I wonder how much business any gunmaker would get if they were honest about delivery. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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what a snide comment for a man that has taken peoples money and not produced a solid time frame for deliverly. If'n it was my money and you posted that reply, ya I would come along and stuff that bolt up your lieing ass. | |||
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Gentlemen: It seems at this point the aggrieved parties themselves should take it outside with Mr. Satterlee and come to terms with him on a case by case basis. I venture that Stuart has bitten off more burger than he can chew right now. He ought to devote an entire day to customer service and then promptly get to work. I think I'll be waiting for CZ to finally produce their LH 550 or keep my eye out for an apropriate Winchester. | |||
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Notwithstanding.that.I.paid.in.advance.with. six.weeks.delivery.promised,it.took.five(5). YEARS.to.get.two.Krag.triggers.from.Canjar. | |||
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jsl3170, While I certeinly understand your point, Mr. Satterlle apparently has not seem fit to reolve these matters in private for some time. Mr. Satterlee chosen to respond in a public forum. The astute thinmg for Mr. Satterlee to do is to look at his workload, make out a rodcution schedule, communicate with his customers, and then stick to it. Probably take him a shopping 3 hours pull that together. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I also thought of MRC but they were upfront in saying the deposits were going towards product development with the return being a better price. That's a big difference compared to taking a "deposit" on a product who's development was appearently still in it's infancy. Even today Mr. Satterlees web site has these actions as available and in stock, a blatant mis-representation of the truth or better known as a lie. I think it's better to raise capitol through investors to develop the product and then sell it. If you can't raise these funds don't do it at all. This venture has failure written all over it with people getting burnt and a talented gunmaker probably doomed to working in a machine shop turning brake drums. I hope not. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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I can believe that, even though my transactions were LITTLE SHORTER. | |||
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I wanted one of the actions, but I've been in too many of these custom deals that didn't work out to cause me at my age to part with adown payment to him. | |||
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No dog in the fight, nor do I known the man. But after reading this,
I thought to myself, what an arrogant prick. | |||
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Appropriate or not, I think I've earned a spot in this discussion. I too, sent Satterlee a deposit with the promise of a timely delivery...about 14 mos. ago. In my case I made a BIG mistake, the customer had me act as his agent and it was the customer's money I forwarded to Stuart. Honorably, I will make sure the customer is not out funds...but, of course, I am. So Stuart, I too demand a refund!!! For the most part, I take "in progress" photos...with the internet, and a digital camera, it's no trouble to keep customers appraised of exactly what's been done...and the customer really likes, in some cases, to keep a "history" of the project. Then too, if I become careless in the crosswalks, litigation would be kept to a minmum. | |||
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This all reminds me of the Jack Belk thing. ......civilize 'em with a Krag | |||
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and other similar situations on this and different boards. as per my comment above, how many of these things have to go this way before people won't get involved in them. | |||
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Let's hope not, ikesdad. Nobody really benefits if Stuart's driven out of business. And with this kind of uproar, that seems a possibility. I won't come near arguing that some of our most respected contributors don't have valid complaints. And I know nothing of Stuart's situation. But what it reminds me of--at this point--is a run on a bank. Which can precipitate the kind of disaster calmer minds might wish to avoid. For some of Stuart's clients, the kind of money involved in a deposit on one of his actions is no doubt significant. For others--a majority, I would expect--the monetary loss is pretty much chump change. Anyone investing in the stock market had best be prepared to shrug off such a loss. On any given day. For instance. Oh, I expect Stuart could have handled this better. Perhaps his talents, though, range more to mastering a lathe and milling machine than placating clients? I doubt Stuart's living it up. Had he, for instance, just purchased a new Mercedes, I'd be offended. I expect he lives modestly. As do most gunsmiths. Anyway, I'm thinking of that cheesey old Jimmy Stewart movie they always show at Christmas? The one where he prevents the run on the bank? I don't know that there's an easy solution here--certainly there's gonna be some pain--but I will comment that I have less than contempt for the uninvolved poster who suggested violence. [If'n given the chance, maybe Stuart woulda shoved that bolt up your ass.] Overall, I'm less than happy to say that this has been the most painful thread it's been my pleasure to view on AR. And that's saying something. I feel sympathy to both sides. Finally... [and aren't we all glad I'm almost through?] I'm wondering how many of these contributors are Christians? And how many times they've recited... "Forgive me my trespasses, as I forgive those that trespass against me"? flaco N.B. Edited to add: I am not Jimmy Stewart. If you guys insist on your pound of flesh, go for it. | |||
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I agree, it's a pretty tough thread. ......civilize 'em with a Krag | |||
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Ok, with all that said, I can be an arrogant prick. I sould be quicker to listen slower to speak. I do opperate at a fairly intense level. I'm in with the daily update. Bolt production for these Rigby magnums this moring, Just going to do seven for the six actions. So lets see, got them cut up in the saw faced one end on each and with a series of drills as you can see laying on the table there drilled the hole progressively larger in diameter and deeper, it's a progressive stepping up of the hole. Makes a real good hole, good and straight, thats what you want in a bolt. Tomorrow I'll be turning the O.D. Thursday I'll be going to another local shop with my bottom metal prints and get them going on bottom metal. They'll also be looking at bottom metal for standard Milsurp actions at the same time, all one piece. Lets see, other updates my dad who is also a machinist with his own shop is going to make my bolt stops and bolt stop pivot screws and firing pins and guard screws, he also makes Joes peep sights that go on the GMA actions. In the mean time I'll be working on these bolts and safety levers for all those RH safetys there on the table, A good couple handfulls of those are going out to A/R guys. After that I'll be into the M-70 sears and triggers modified somewhat from the grisel design. I try to be back here tomorrow, SAME BAT TIME, SAME BAT CHANNEL. have good one. Stuart  | |||
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Bummers, I was hoping to see a picture of my project. ould have been nice to drool over while I'm back in Egypt, don't worry I'm not mad at you, LOL | |||
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Stuart, I applaud you for communicating more details. But I suspect your clients are interested in delivery dates not what you are doing tomorrow or the next day. As someone who negotiates disputes for a living, I have pretty could insight as to what eases customer's concerns. These folks are most likely interested in their deilivery dates. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Well, Forrest, that pretty well shucks it right on down to the cob as we say up here in NE Texas. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Hard to get your money back from someone who doesn't have it. Someone doesn't need to publically state that they don't intend a refund to not give one. And, like Mike Dettorre pointed out, all you see here is pictures no dates. I suspect a delivery date is what his customers want not pcitures. I'll amend that, what they want is their actions, they've heard multiple delivery dates already. | |||
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The promise-by date on my action was September 2006. In November 2006, Satterlee sent me an email saying he had "20 actions 80% complete". Some months later I was told that my action was finished except for the bottom metal. Those are just two examples of the many bald-faced lies I've heard from Satterlee over the last 18 months. Pictures say quite alot. Where is the finished action less the bottom metal? I can't see it in the picture. | |||
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4-07-08 is the date. Bruch Weibe Berry All will get a refund those will go out 2-8-08. MHC, 4-07-08 works for me if it works for you. Mildot, which action did you order. call me, I don't know who you are. Stuart | |||
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Hope not to get flamed for this, but here goes. We, "us shooters" are partially responsible for this type of problem. Many of us don't seem to mind if a gunsmith takes an extra month, months, or even years past the promise date to deliver a product. For some reason, there seems to be a perception that if a gunsmith delivers on time, there is something wrong, he is not a true "artist" at his trade. FORTUNATELY, I have found a few gunsmiths that are not only "artists" but actually deliver in a timely manner. That being said, let us put the shoe on the other foot so to speak. What do you think would happen if you told a gunsmith to build you a rifle, and send it to you. Then you tell him that you will send payment on a promised date, only to extend that date months or years? Just a hunch, but I bet he would be on the phone every day asking for his money. I tried using one of the "named" smiths for a project. I will not mention the name, suffice it to say that the 6-8 week delivery time stretched to over 2 years. What makes me angry is that I believe that jobs should be completed on a first come, first served basis. Barring parts delay, or anything like that, if a gunsmith has everything needed to complete a project, how come many of us run into the situation where we take our gun in and someone else takes their's in three months later, gets their's back sooner? I am a very patient person, believe it or not. If I take a gun in to be worked on and the smith tells me it will be ready in 8 weeks, I will not have any contact with him unless he initiates it. But, at the due date I expect to walk into the shop and pick up my gun. After all, HE SET THE RULES, HE SET THE TIME FRAME, why is it that HE DOESN'T HAVE TO FOLLOW HIS OWN RULES? No matter how talented you are at what you do, if you can only show things you have done in the past, and not be able to produce anything in the present you pretty much are at a dead end and might consider a new direction, Thus endeth my rant for the day, I did not mean to insult anyone, but if I did, I apologize now. | |||
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As we discussed on the phone, that date works for me. I expect the ordered action delivered by 4-07-08 or my $1500 deposit to be returned. Mike | |||
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I've had this happen several times. Talking to one smith about it while he did come right out and say it I think it was a money timeline. My project was going to take a while. He would not get paid for the work for 6-8 months. The other jobs came in and could be turned quickly with a payment within a week or two versus months. Hey I knwo people need to eat but once you start down that slope it is hard to get off of it. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Guys, I have had rifles built and or worked on by 7 different nationally prominent 'smiths, including Stuart. Without naming names, I'll just say that Stuart is about in the middle of the pack in terms of delivery times. He is way better than 4 of those guys and below 2 of them in terms of delivering when he says he will. It's a frustrating truth that it takes longer than you think it will. | |||
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Is that you Blue? _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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This is personal opinion only, but I feel fortunate when a skilled gunsmith puts his time, attention and skill into my project, regardless of turnaround time. That is not to say that a customer is unreasonable in expecting delivery by a certain date, but I would prefer to wait longer and get the good stuff.  | |||
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I have had a 358 Norma at my gunsmith for about 18 months. If it's built sometime this year I will be happy. If not, that's life. I agree with Dan (500GRAINS). | |||
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I couldn't agree more; but this dispute isn't about time, it's about honesty. I've invested seven years in my attempt to build the ultimate 416; another year or two wouldn't bother me. Needless lying drains the fun out of my hobby and I'd rather work with honest skilled craftsmen - there are plenty around. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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That was the problem I had with my projects! Honesty! A lack of honesty! After being told my projects were in various states of completion, when I got all the parts back they were in their original boxes without a tool mark one. My project took a 2 1/2 nap at a gunsmith who wouldn't answer the phone. It took a Sheriff's Deputy standing in his front yard to get him to answer the phone. Business is about producing a product for a client, on time. Business is about communicating with your clients! Anyting else isn't business. It's giving you clients the business. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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 Timan | |||
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Well in the begining I had the enlarged smallring action going 1.330 reciever diameter simple to make. Forest you wanted to go to 1.400 I agreed when I shouldn't have. The large ring took a lot of time, time I never should have given delivery dates for on this new development, just figured it would be easier than it was. I've got a way better idea of the time involved on the large ring. Sorry for making your hobby not not a fun one each and everyone of you. Stuart | |||
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stuarts custmers which have asked for a refund have the right to do so, however i feel you are doing your self a real disservive as those actions are second to none and i think they are going to be finished in the not to distant future im holding in there and i have got one heck of a lot more tied up than most guys Daniel | |||
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FORREST i agree with you that there are many fine and skilled tradesmen, but show me one who will make a action like stuarts, as i said in one of my posts , i got back from europe went to H&M PRECTAL etc etc but stuarts actions are level above those , hang in there, you will enjoy the action /rifle once you get it... Daniel | |||
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No, I wouldn't. I've been down this road before with an otherwise talented gunmaker and I ended up with a rifle I never fired or even handled once I got it. Eventually, I sold the rifle because everytime I saw it in my safe it disgusted me. M 98, your tolerance for dishonesty is much higher than mine. No one has been abused by Satterlee more than you have, but you just keep coming back for more. Good luck to you. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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FORREST i guess im a sucker for quality actions Daniel | |||
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