quote:

Originally posted by mildotfever:
WRF/ol'blue, your offer appears to be sort of like trying to buy a friend, good luck!!!!!!!
Hell, if ya don't get any offers, send it to me, I'll be your friend till it gets here....

Ol'Jimmy

Gee, I forgot that you can't read. I said I would loan it to someone who had one on order. Didn't say anything about buying anything.
Mabye you should go outside and play for awhile.

What is the deal with those safeties there Ol'Blue? I thought Satterlees safety's had the lever on the other side of the shroud. Are those yours or did you just steal someone else's pictures?

Ol'Howard

Those are my safeties and my photograh. As I said in my post Stuart supplies them with the lever on either side.

I need two. Both with the lever on the opposite side as is typical. One in left hand and one in left hand. do you have a couple I can borrow?

If it sounds too good to be true.....
Magnum action

Jason

Pete Noreen made an average m70type action, WFHein took over his operation(IIRC), and from what I could tell its also an average action....,from what I inspected from WFHein, it was evident that my smith would have to resurface the action and recut the barrel tenion thread....bear in mind, hes the kind of smith that will spend several hours rebuilding typical premium bottom metal and talley rings to more ideal spec.

>> My idea of a custom action is one that dont need any further work done to it....,If I have to look at a so called custom action and ask,... how much more will it cost to have it properly finished?,..then its not the action for me at the quoted price.,...,Why buy a $2k+ receiver and have to spend $1k getting it corrected?... I got a better idea, buy a simple $500-600 m70classic action and spend $1k gettin it right (and put the difference toward a super bit of walnut)
....in conversation with Ted Blackburn about receivers, he rated the Noreen about 4/10, a HartmannWeiss about 10/10.

There were some investment cast Sth African magnum mauser actions going for about $2k some yrs ago, by the time you squared and trued the whole thing up,and built a custom mandrel for the 30-40thou tapered bolt hole , it became a $4.5k receiver. ..and not one that I would like to own.

Maybe what some ARfolk are saying is correct, actions are being priced into the market so they can sell, may be the case, but quality can suffer, or if the maker will not compromise on quality, it simply takes much much longer and truelly cannot be done at the timeframe or price quoted,... unless maybe, you really got yer shit together.

When I was an apprentice I was taught how to hand file a 3/4" square bar, to round(the makings of a tap wrench handle),...with only the aid of a micrometer and flat rule, within a tolerance of 2 thou.,... you basically created multiple parralel opposed sides,2 to 4 ,4 to 8,to 16,to 32,to 64, to 128 parallel opposed sides,,then carefully draw file all the small ridge lines to form a round bar,to a specified finish dia., then final finish with fine emery...it took us well over a week to do(some could not manage the 128 sides), as first year apprentices, it was great learned diciplined fitting skill.I dont believe it, or any of the other complex hand fitting projects,were a waste of time.
however a lathe makes more sense in most real world situations

That post from 2000 is halarious. ESPECIALLY THIS PART:

*******************
Prices????

Not finalised yet..but I see no reason why they should not be held to a
seasonable level. The custom action makers have been gouging us
too long!!!

Robert Bastow
Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:52:23 GMT
*******************

That is a sure sign that someone has zero business sense and experience in the gun indsutry. It is so rediculous I am at a loss for what to say. What became of this guy and his actions? He said he "plunked down several hundred thousand dollars" on a machine shop-did anything get built at all?

A funny thing happened this morning while emailing with a custom gunmaker who shall remain anonymous. The topic of the scheduling article I wrote in the last issue of the Gunmaker came up and I said there was a big brew-ha-ha about a custom maker's schedule woes raging on the net even as we typed. The unnamed gunmaker emailed back and said, "let me guess, it is about Hein, Dakota, Blackburn, or Satterlee..." Funny how when there is a problem people who are at the core of the business can hear about a problem and automatically know where to place his bet on who it is. They have definitely seen a pattern there.

Steve Hughes has given the best advice. He has been in the heart of the industry for about three decades and has seen a lot of people lose money (makers and clients), blood pressure spikes, broken promises, outright lies, etc., etc. His policy of not plunking down any money unless there is proff that the product actually exists is the most sound route to follow. I screwed up last year in trusting two makers who said the prodcut was made and just needed a little finishing work.

Well all I can say is that I am still hopeful that Greg will deliver my rifle in June, albeit four months late. Regardless of how good the rifle will turn out in the end, like my friend Forrest said, I've been soured by the whole process.

This was supposed to be a "fun" project for me. I sold rifles that I really liked to pay for the Hein Dakota 450, I saw both Greg and Karl (no longer with the company) at the Dallas Safari Convention in 06, and LOVED the finished 404 they had on display.

I managed to hoard a big supply of 450 brass because I was worried that Dakota would go "tits up" and stop making brass. I even bought dies from Redding and had a crimping die custom made by Lee. Fellow AR member Andy supplied me with great load data and my good friend JohnS helped me pick out the caliber. Hell I even changed my safari plans to another buffalo hunt in order to use the rifle.

This has now turned into a goat-rope for a lot of us and I won't make this mistake again. I should have stuck to what I know. I have six grand invested in this. jorge

I believe custom actions should only be made by eccentric millionares with a personal passion,that work at 2am in the morning on a full moon, when the mundane mass average world is asleep, and not for finacial profit, but just for simple self satisfaction,.... and not out of expectation & if your lucky, he may gift you with one, as you have done with other things toward him in the past, out of friendship.
...outside of that I mostly see people that have their abilities and ambitions all mixed up,and or people that are just plain selfish greedy and dishonest.

quote:

Robert Bastow

Isn't that teenut? I thought he passed away.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
What became of this guy and his actions? He said he "plunked down several hundred thousand dollars" on a machine shop-did anything get built at all?

I believe he died of cancer before his plans were realised.

quote:

Originally posted by TMG:

I believe he died of cancer before his plans were realised.

However, I think the action went down the same road as the Satterlee before he died.

It would seem to me that the ideal setup would be if the action had investors that were not the shooters buying the action. That way they could actions in stock ready to sell as the action was announced.

I care to make one last post to this thread and then no more. I've been watching it (and replying to it) since it came out a week ago. Since then, the sheer power of the Internet has demonstrated itself via the member's postings. I believe we have also witnesseed the end of a business before our very eyes.

Clearly, I am a neophyte regarding rifles as compared to many of our forum's members, but I think I appreciate fine firearms as much as anyone else. It certainly appears Mr. Satterlee has the ability to overcome the creative hurdle necessary to turn out a fine rifle action usable by anyone. However, his undoing and ultimate downfall appears to be largely the work of his own hand. This is truly a pity. It has been said by others and I'll say it now, I have no direct stake in this matter so my comments are tempered by the fact that no funds of mine have been lost to this gunmaker.

Nevertheless, this unfortunate series of events, which have culminated in the likely end of Mr. Satterlee's career as an indie gunmaker, leaves the hunting fraternity better off and worse off all at once; better for the likely removal of a less-than-honest businessman from the marketplace and worse off for the loss of a seemingly quality piece of machinery. It is a draw in my book.

I hope the aggrieved parties are able to get their skin back out of the game. It has certainly been a learning experience on my part to learn about things to look for in a gunmaker as I endeavor to begin my own projects. AR is a fine community of which I am happy to be a member.

Lately this thread is reading like a Mel Gibson movie.

Stuart's demise is being overally exaggerated.

For those customers who have been wronged here you have chosen this forum and thread as a way to seek a remedy for your situation. Others I guess feel a need to pile on. So continue to pontificate as you please,but you make asses of yourself in doing so.

Roger D.

CZ550s are looking better and better.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
I care to make one last post to this thread and then no more. I've been watching it (and replying to it) since it came out a week ago. Since then, the sheer power of the Internet has demonstrated itself via the member's postings. I believe we have also witnesseed the end of a business before our very eyes.

Clearly, I am a neophyte regarding rifles as compared to many of our forum's members, but I think I appreciate fine firearms as much as anyone else. It certainly appears Mr. Satterlee has the ability to overcome the creative hurdle necessary to turn out a fine rifle action usable by anyone. However, his undoing and ultimate downfall appears to be largely the work of his own hand. This is truly a pity. It has been said by others and I'll say it now, I have no direct stake in this matter so my comments are tempered by the fact that no funds of mine have been lost to this gunmaker.

Nevertheless, this unfortunate series of events, which have culminated in the likely end of Mr. Satterlee's career as an indie gunmaker, leaves the hunting fraternity better off and worse off all at once; better for the likely removal of a less-than-honest businessman from the marketplace and worse off for the loss of a seemingly quality piece of machinery. It is a draw in my book.

I hope the aggrieved parties are able to get their skin back out of the game. It has certainly been a learning experience on my part to learn about things to look for in a gunmaker as I endeavor to begin my own projects. AR is a fine community of which I am happy to be a member.

Very well said, jsl3170.
Sometimes the truth does hurt, but the truth is ... well, it is the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by FAST996:
Lately this thread is reading like a Mel Gibson movie.

Stuart's demise is being overally exaggerated.

For those customers who have been wronged here you have chosen this forum and thread as a way to seek a remedy for your situation. Others I guess feel a need to pile on. So continue to pontificate as you please,but you make asses of yourself in doing so.

Roger D.

If the only people on this thread were those affected by the Satterlee fuckup, then it would be a small thread that would now be on page 10. Perhaps the pressure of the big thread sitting at the top might be enought to get Saterlee of his arse.

An interetsing perspective on the situation.

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:

quote:

Originally posted by FAST996:
Lately this thread is reading like a Mel Gibson movie.

Stuart's demise is being overally exaggerated.

For those customers who have been wronged here you have chosen this forum and thread as a way to seek a remedy for your situation. Others I guess feel a need to pile on. So continue to pontificate as you please,but you make asses of yourself in doing so.

Roger D.

If the only people on this thread were those affected by the Satterlee fuckup, then it would be a small thread that would now be on page 10. Perhaps the pressure of the big thread sitting at the top might be enought to get Saterlee of his arse.

+1 for the asses and counting!

Does he deserve to loose his livelyhood???????? I remember a carpenter dressed in the plain clothes of his day came to show all of us the way, saying go and sin no more!

quote:

Does he deserve to loose his livelyhood???????? I remember a carpenter dressed in the plain clothes of his day came to show all of us the way, saying go and sin no more!

I guess that is up to him.

Add my name to the list of those that wish Stuart the best.

He has an extravagant talent.

He may not be a businessman--as is so clearly illustrated by the posts in this thread--but he has what a businessman will never have.

He can build actions.

This is a gift.

And, no doubt, the result of his commitment to his discipline.

I'm hoping he can whip that CNC machine into shape, train it to do his bidding, and turn out actions at a pace that will make them economically viable.

flaco

Fast996: I'm a fulltime working gunmaker...have been for about 40 years. It took at least half of that time to devlop the reputation that INCLUDES timely delivery. I get pretty pissed when I get caught in the middle of an action maker who promises delivery by a certain date...then I make sure a block of time is there to build the rifle to meet a realisic delivery date. I have all other components ready to go....then....I sit on my ass for over a year waiting for the action...still trying to keep that block of time JUST IN CASE the action might show up..Hunts have been booked, the rifle must go to customs...we're suddenly running out of time....and I still don't have the action...now it's too late to order another action...Now the cusomer is REALLY turned off on the custom angle...why put up with all this bullshit? I can't really blame him...BUT it impacts my business and the income...that's business to you, 996...I hope I'm not going too fast!.....You see, the non delivery does a number to the entire custom field...each level is impacted negatively, from wood supplier to barrel maker and a potential repeat client may be lost forever...as for your carpenter friend..well you would be well advised to have him explain economics 101

Perhaps a bit off topic but along the lines of one late order delaying others......... I see lots of Blackburn products on custom rifles yet nobody seems to be able to get anything from them, or so it seems reading posts here. Do you guys buy in bulk when it is available?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Fast996: I'm a fulltime working gunmaker...have been for about 40 years. It took at least half of that time to devlop the reputation that INCLUDES timely delivery. I get pretty pissed when I get caught in the middle of an action maker who promises delivery by a certain date...then I make sure a block of time is there to build the rifle to meet a realisic delivery date. I have all other components ready to go....then....I sit on my ass for over a year waiting for the action...still trying to keep that block of time JUST IN CASE the action might show up..Hunts have been booked, the rifle must go to customs...we're suddenly running out of time....and I still don't have the action...now it's too late to order another action...Now the cusomer is REALLY turned off on the custom angle...why put up with all this bullshit? I can't really blame him...BUT it impacts my business and the income...that's business to you, 996...I hope I'm not going too fast!.....You see, the non delivery does a number to the entire custom field...each level is impacted negatively, from wood supplier to barrel maker and a potential repeat client may be lost forever...as for your carpenter friend..well you would be well advised to have him explain economics 101

Duane I would have never thought you were a condescending guy, but I can live with it.

DUANE
you are so right there, and it does not help the custom gun makers like you and many others , when a another "custom gun builder" like EMPIRE RIFLES owes SATTERLEE ARMS over $10,000 and refuses to pay up, and when they do it takes 6-8 mounths to pay and then its only a part payment
at present as im led to belive empire ownes another 3 companies substancial amount of $$$ and are not paying up!
put your self in stuarts situation you do the work , expect to get paid and then your not paid....how much stress would this put on your business???

again ,if only stuart had communicated with his customers ...again ,i say it ,i hope he learns
Daniel

Mr. Wiebe is a pillar of the high end custom gun arena. I am very, very sorry to hear about the situation that you, your client, and the other compnenet suppliers are in right now. Luckily, this whole Satterlee thing does not have me over a barrel like that, but I have been there before and can sure relate. I understand where you, and all the others are coming from, and understand that it is not piling on


BTW- "that carpenter" said a lot of things, and pulling one thing out of context does not have any bearing on this thread. Throwing that out there is grasping for straws. I have read every recorded word that man said, multiple times. He said a lot about persoanl responsability, integrity, honesty, and a host of other things that are clearly missing from soem people's busienss strategy. You don't want to start oreaching to me.

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
DUANE
you are so right there, and it does not help the custom gun makers like you and many others , when a another "custom gun builder" like EMPIRE RIFLES owes SATTERLEE ARMS over $10,000 and refuses to pay up, and when they do it takes 6-8 mounths to pay and then its only a part payment
at present as im led to belive empire ownes another 3 companies substancial amount of $$$ and are not paying up!
put your self in stuarts situation you do the work , expect to get paid and then your not paid....how much stress would this put on your business???

again ,if only stuart had communicated with his customers ...again ,i say it ,i hope he learns
Daniel

And now some of the true facts start to come out.

Saterlee did a bunch of work for Empire Rifles. Saterlee relies on that money coming in to support his family and his business. The money doesn't come in. Saterlee then needs to take more deposits than he should have taken in order to make up for lost revenue. And Saterlee gets terribly behind on his work.
Poor business decisions for sure, mostly because Stuart is probably undercapitalized and undermanned in his business. But surely not the crook that many here have painted him out to be.

Yea, I would be pissed too if I was a guy like Wiebe or any other maker who was relying on parts in order to keep his schedule going as promised, or a hunter who wanted one of these actions for a special hunt.

But, as M 98, who owns a few of these actions, has said, they are absolutely superb actions, and well worth the wait.

I wonder what any other maker would do if they did a bunch of work and didn't get paid.

Maybe its time to talk a little bit about Mr. George Sandman from Empire Rifles. He seems to be the one that is the crook here.


Edited: I had a very nice talk with Mr. Sandmann this morning, in which I apologised to him for the language I used in this post. He accepted my apology. We talked for awhile about the Custom Rifle Business, and Business in general, and then parted with him hoping that someday I would try one of Empire's Products. (Feb 15, 2008)

quote:

Saterlee then needs to take more deposits than he should have taken in order to make up for lost revenue.

quote:

Maybe its time to talk a little bit about Mr. George Sandman from Empire Rifles. He seems to be the one that is the crook here.

Even for a disinterested observer such as myself, that is one load of doubletalk.

[/QUOTE]



I wonder what any other maker would do if they did a bunch of work and didn't get paid.



[/QUOTE]



I hope they would be honest and forth-right with their customers and not string them along.

I was one of those guy's the Duane Wiebe described. I had the barrel, wood and even a hunt booked for the rifle that was to be built on this Satterlee action. Satterlee new this when I placed my order with him...... I told him the timing was very crucial to me!!!! There were other actions that I could have gone with. What really pisses me off is Satterlee continued to string me along.....his "new" delivery time was just shorter than what I could have a Granite Mtn Arms action built in.

In addition, Satterlee continued to take additional orders/deposits with unrealistic promised delivery times. The bullshit had to stop!

Personally, I hope Satterlee makes it - I really do! I hope he comes through all of this with a new outlook....just be honest with your customer, stand behind your word and continue to build trust by doing what you say you will.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
And now some of the true facts start to come out.

There is a world full of facts that could be discussed here. However all of them just like the ones you mention have no bearing on what this thread is about. This thread is not about the quality of Satterlees work nor about his finances or who owes him money. Its about his honestly and lack of it with respect to his communications with his customers who have entrusted him with their hard earned money.

PS I have been stiffed for tens of thousands of dollars. I know what its like and I know what you must do to to overcome. When that happens you work doubly hard for the customers you do have who pay. People who have paid upfront via deposits have proven they will pay. Not that you don't treat all customer well but those who have proven they will pay you treat like the gold they are.

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
DUANE
you are so right there, and it does not help the custom gun makers like you and many others , when a another "custom gun builder" like EMPIRE RIFLES owes SATTERLEE ARMS over $10,000 and refuses to pay up, and when they do it takes 6-8 mounths to pay and then its only a part payment
at present as im led to belive empire ownes another 3 companies substancial amount of $$$ and are not paying up!
put your self in stuarts situation you do the work , expect to get paid and then your not paid....how much stress would this put on your business???

That really sucks. A small business simply cannot afford to do work for free.

MHC-TX

I agree with you 100%. I would be pissed too. But what I was getting at was this. What was your alternative? If you wanted the best, and Satterlee was the best, what could you have gotten as an alternative? Empire???? From what M 98 says, probably not! Yea, Stu should have told you he couldn't produce on time. That he should have done. But that is a far cry from stealing people's money on purpose, for which many have accused him.

Howard

I agree with you. I got stiffed for over $11,000 last year. Thats three Saterlee actions!

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Maybe its time to talk a little bit about Mr. George Sandman from Empire Rifles. He seems to be the one that is the crook here.

Stop muddying the waters. That is a separate dispute between those two parties, and does not pertain to this discussion.

George

quote:

Saterlee did a bunch of work for Empire Rifles. Saterlee relies on that money coming in to support his family and his business.

So, we are told that instead of making action for customers that made down payments, Stuart made actions for Empire?

It certainly does pertain. It differentiates between accusing Mr. Satterlee of doing all of these things he is accused of on purpose rather than doing many of them based upon circumstances that went beyond his control.

"Relevant evidence - evidence having any tendency to make the existence of any fact that is of consequence to the determination of the action more probale or less probably that it would be without the evidence."

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
But that is a far cry from stealing people's money on purpose, for which many have accused him.

He has the money and has not produced what it is he took the money for. Intentional or otherwise people are still out their money. What is it called?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
It certainly does pertain. It differentiates between accusing Mr. Satterlee of doing all of these things he is accused of on purpose rather than doing many of them based upon circumstances that went beyond his control.

The dispute has to do with deposits paid, promises made and not kept, delays, prevarications, obfuscations, and products paid for but not delivered.

If Mr. Satterlee has problems with other (bigger) customers, suppliers, software, and/or equipment, then informing his customers via e-mail, newsletter, or telephone to advise them of the reasons for the delays would have been the correct thing to do. He could have offered them a refund at any time.

Try as you might (and you have), you cannot steer the discussion away from these central issues.

George

Howard

People are still out their money for now. But the difference is that Stuart has not said that he is going to walk away from these orders. That is the big difference.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:

quote:

Saterlee then needs to take more deposits than he should have taken in order to make up for lost revenue.

quote:

Maybe its time to talk a little bit about Mr. George Sandman from Empire Rifles. He seems to be the one that is the crook here.

Even for a disinterested observer such as myself, that is one load of doubletalk.

Consider the source.

George

If you would read what I had to say, I have repeatedly stated over and over again that I agreed that this is certainly all about bad business decisions, products paid for and not delivered, etc. I have stated that I would be pissed too if I was in the same position as some of these guys are in, including both makers who schedule time, and those who wanted to use a Satterlee action for their next big game hunt. Stuart has made some bad business decisions, one of which was to be undercapitalized. I recall a long time ago on this forum suggesting that he incorporate and build up some capital.

Nevertheless, if you would READ what I have said, I am just stating that many on here have taken this farther that it really is becasue the plain and simple fact of the matter is that Stuart has repeatedly stated that eventually he intends to make these orders good and pay back those who don't want their action anymore.

All I am saying, as a guy who has actually talked with Stuart, and emails with Stuart, along with a few others, is that I believe him.