I deleted many of my posts because of what Saeed said. No need to clog up his hard drive memory system with posts that are just argument and name calling. They don't add anything to the hisotrical value of AR. This whole damn thread should be deleted.


Blasphemy - Profane or mocking abuse of God or anything regarded as sacred. Contempt for God.
(Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language)

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I deleted many of my posts because of what Saeed said. No need to clog up his hard drive memory system with posts that are just argument and name calling. They don't add anything to the hisotrical value of AR. This whole damn thread should be deleted.

Why don't you lead by shutting the fuck up. Shouldn't you be out chasing an ambulance or something?

Malm

I was too cold to chase ambulences here this morning (20 below zero). Why don't you follow your own advice and shut up?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I deleted many of my posts because of what Saeed said. No need to clog up his hard drive memory system with posts that are just argument and name calling. They don't add anything to the hisotrical value of AR. This whole damn thread should be deleted.

Saeed said, " I wonder who made that classic statement 'It is better to remain quiet and be thought of as an idiot, rather than open your mouth and remove any doubt.' "

Craigster

And you make the statement, 'nothing is worse than ignorance in action". Why don't you follow your own advice?

Damn, I wish I had gotten in earlier. And to think, all of this without me. Until now.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
....Seems Satterlee did finish an action for one of the members here, about 3 years ago, after 5 years of twaddle....

As a matter of interest RIP, were you and the other AR guys privi to that fact before ordering an SatterleeM98 for yourselves?

I suppose for the guy who is financial, he can order an Hartmann&Weiss magnum mauser action at near $6k and have it delivered on time .....eventually you do realize that time is more precious than money.

now would someone learned please educate me, did Leonardo Davinci take deposits????

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
....Seems Satterlee did finish an action for one of the members here, about 3 years ago, after 5 years of twaddle....

As a matter of interest RIP, were you and the other AR guys privi to that fact before ordering an SatterleeM98 for yourselves?

I can't speak for RIP, but I didn't know about M 98's problems with Satterlee (and his rationale for staying low key about them) until after this thread started. As a matter of fact, there's a lot I didn't know about Satterlee until the last week. I think one reason that Satterlee is so snide towards his customers here is that we may be the least of his problems.

Woodjack,
You have uncovered some more information: It seems I knew of Stuart's stringing M98 along before Forrest did. I knew about M98's (Daniel's) problems with Stuart soon after, but not before, I had announced here that I had made a deposit on a Satterlee action, back in mid-December 2006. I guess my check was a stocking stuffer for little Stuart. Daniel PM'ed me soon after and informed me of the way Stuart was ignoring his attempts at communication.

I was more than happy to make up five .375 Ruger dummies and mail them to Stuart as assistance for feed work on the supposed .375 Ruger that was being done on one of the actions Daniel has on order, gratis. Made sense to me: Help Daniel by assisting Stuart, so he could clear up his backlog and maybe get on to others down the list from Daniel (first on the list), and eventually he would start on my action. Stuart acknowledged receiving the dummies, but has not done one damn thing with them that I can tell.

Anytime I have gotten any response from Stuart, it was after 3 or 4 messages left on the phone or that many emails, or I got nothing at all, and would just wait two months and start over again with the next idea to try to nudge him into responsiveness. His responses were invariably lies, now I know.

I think Daniel has paid in full, upfront, for at least two actions that he has sent Stuart money for, as well as other work, i.e., paid for barrels and stocks, and some dealings on the third action that are too complicated to go into here. Daniel has been waiting a full two years as of this month, and has seen not a lick of work out of Stuart. Just lies, I guess.

I also guess that since Daniel lives in Australia, Stuart feels safe about not getting an attitude adjustment on Daniel's account. He might get it done in five years again, just like that first action he built for Daniel. Who knows?

I hope this thread results in something more than a new phrase of the English language.
"Stupid Tax" may soon be replaced by "Stuart Tax," at least here at ar.com.

Here is one of Da Vinci's unfinished works:



There were others that he agreed to do but never started. However, I have no information concerning his track record of refunding deposits.

woodjack
if you order a action from H&W your wait is 3-5 years with no gaurantee of delivery date, just a rough approximation...i know as i just got back from europe and dropped in on a few of the european gun makers

As far as stuart goes im more than confident that i will receive my actions made to the same high standard that my first one was, and i will put it up against any M 98 made in the past or that will be made in the future
Why i havent aired this on AR....a number of reasons...i dont think it will/would achieve much, it would have become a feeding frenzey for those that dont have a bone in this....and this thread is a prime example of it, its bitter ,ugly and vindictive and uncalled for. I guess im in the same boat as Forrest wiebe etc etc full of failed expectations, ...who is to blame ...STUART pure and simple , he admits it him self .
Stuart had some pretty major changes in 07 , not of his own doing which put him back weeks.....if he only got on the phone and spoke to forrest weibe RIP , i think they would have given him more slack than he needed i have spoken to forrest RIP ETC ETC and they are pretty down to earth people
i communicated with stuart on a pretty regular bases of my own accord so knew what was going on in his shop , he invested in a CNC so production could be speeded up, took a few weeks to set the cnc up and get it going, once he got it going the hard drive went to hell lost another few weeks ...i guess a lot of his customers did not know this , as he did not commuicate this to them , and thus he paid the ultimate price!
there were a number of AR people who communicated with me in relation to the satterlee action , and i did make a mention to them of the long and frustrating delays....some orderd and some didnt
As to my first action , it was a heck of a dragged out affair , no doubt about it, on the flip side stuart tried to make this right with me.....he half offered me a free satterlee M98 as compensation, i declined the offer, i must say it was hard real hard to decline, he also offered to chamber and fit my barrel and sights for free, so i guess one needs to give credit where its due, he made an effort to make things right

Im not sticking up for stuart/or making excuses for him , heck i sent him some pretty blistering e mails my self , but not on a public forum, and that was my choice , im sure stuart can take care of him self, however sometimes there is more to things than meets the eye .
STUART FAILED HIS CUSTOMERS NO DOUBT, i hope he can come back from this


Daniel

SDH
speculative deposits?????

you have to be joking, what is so speculative about putting a deposit on an action
Daniel

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
SDH
speculative deposits?????

you have to be joking, what is so speculative about putting a deposit on an action
Daniel

I think what SHD is referring to is the same thing I meant when I likened putting down a deposit on an action that has yet to come to market. I suppose what I might have said was it is akin to an IPO?

If a maker doesn't have an action already produced and selling on the market then what else but speculation can it be?

I'm not that fond of Matt Williams but to his credit, to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't taken deposits on his vaporware actions. And I hope that at some point they do become a reality, as they will serve a need.

Please excuse me, but I must be a little slow. I wasn't buying a piece of art or a share of some speculative stock.

What I was buying (or at least was led along to think that I was buying) was a action that was one of four others that was being made and these actions were near 80% completed when I placed my order and deposit.

The timing of delivery was also discussed in detail and agreed upon by both parties.

The problems for me started when the deadline continued to slip. The first deadline came and I contacted Satterlee, second deadline came and I contacted Satterlee, third deadline came and I contacted Satterlee and so. The whole time I was being told that the action was being worked on and would soon be completed.......which wasn't the case.

In my case, I have agreed to one last "final delivery date" of 4-07-08 for my action or Stuart has agreed to return my $1500 deposit.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
...How about buying one when there is actually an action for sale!

...and whats wrong with being promised gold taps and ivory door handles before you even see a basic roof and walls?.......why just yesterday I swapped my last prized possession cow for three magic beans!

Theres a smiley AR needs for custom rifle action makers.....

M98/Daniel,

Im interested who you spoke with when you got that time frame.


Was it Otto Weiss or Gerhard Hartmann?.
If you spoke with a sales rep, they know next to f*ck all about the H&W product or whats going on in the actual workshop, to really know anything about real delivery dates you need to speak with the gentlemen above, well that was my experience anyway...Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
How many times did I get skewered when I was sceptical about the latest wonder mauser/m-70 action?
It's much friendlier to support the dreamers.

I saw Pete Noreen at the Livingston Gunshow yesterday. He's making single shot 50 cal actions now. I like Pete, I didn't ask about delivery.

I wonder how the Heim G33's are coming along?

Anyone seen the latest Montana PH action?

The Williams wonder was introduced at the Shot Show last year, didn't you see it?

I'd like a Perigrine single shot, how about an Oregon Hagn clone or a Falling Block Works?

In my experience, all custom action makers are fraught with delays and problems, some of them do come through, eventually, many don't. I've seen many, many come and go, yawn, over the years.

This isn't an isolated incident. IMHO, feeding the fires with speculative deposits is simply asking/inviting to get screwed.
How about buying one when there is actually an action for sale!

Unlike some, I declined to take any money for the actions that we are going to produce.....I made that painfully clear from the start, though I had many that were ready and willing to sign their Visa's over to me to do just that.

I also declined to mention anymore about them, due to setbacks that we've encountered that are way too long to get into. The only one that might ring a bell here would be the demise of our longest and largest customer, USRAC.

I frankly could care less how some would yawn......those that do the most, haven't the ability to do it themselves, or if they did, they haven't.

At the time that I announced a long time ago about bringing out an action, I had a steady workforce and steady work from my primary customer that I didn't have to babysit on the floor. This allowed me time to build about 90% of the receiver and components. I also used this forum and others to find out what the customers who would be my bread and butter would want.

I've had plenty of folks who have asked, "what's taking so long?" Most are just eager to see what we're going to build and then there are others that are actually upset we haven't done it yet..........Sometimes you just have to walk a day in my shoes to know what happens between point a and point b.

I can sympathize with Stuart to some degree on the stuff that can go wrong, but I've yet to take money for something I didn't have.......ever. When customers order my parts, they get charged when it leaves the door, not before.....They pay the shipping on the first part of the order, and if I don't have the rest of their parts ready, they ship later on my dime. It's the only way I've ever done it and will continue to do so.

I don't believe the customer service I've been known for had any business being lumped into this thread in regards to actions or anything else. Then again, I'm just a "vaporware" manufacturer of the "Williams Wonder".....

I think the big negative outcome of this thread is that if there is another action maker who comes along and he has what it takes, it will be hard for him to get going.

In my opinion SDH's summary is correct.

And it does not involve just actions. As RIP knows I had my fingers burnt with an AR project gun/calibre.

A mate of mine in Australia almost got caught with the crowd that have the German sounding name....they took over the Noreen action....Wabenfriek of some similar name.

I suspect that part of the problem is the market for custom M70/M98 actions is very limited and also very demanding and the whole thing is a much bigger deal than the action maker imagined. On the other hand the custom copy of Rem 700 is a different situation, although there have still been problems in that area.

A problem is the custom area is based on people paying it all off. I don't know about the US of A but in Australia one reason the M98 is favoured over Pre64 is because the M98 allows the project to start for a small outlay.

The reality is the custom actions probably need to cost a lot more but the action maker is scared to charge a big price.

$3000US is very cheap for the action. I can tell you that if you get Weatherby to do the Kreiger cut rifle barrel and action work, the rifle as an Accumark gun will end up costing a lot more than a $3000 Satterlee action plus barrel and plastic stock.

Some years ago on AR ForrestB organised a raffle for a take down 500 Jeffery made by one of the posters on this thread. It went ahead smoothly, we sent money from Australia and that was well organised from his end, all worked. RIP has his funny wildcat stuff....but it goes ahead to compeltion. In my opinion, the custom action maker like Satterlee is not geared up for this market. He is geared to a market where things don't go through to a satisfactory conclusion asnd bullshit will carry the day.

Mike

Matt, you are worlds apart from what started this thread. Anybody with any common sense knows that. Those without it aren't worth the effort.........

OK guys, it looks like we are going to have to be satisfied with Weatherby Mark V's and Savage 110's.

It really is too bad that nobody can make a nice custom magnum action for $3,000 and deliver on time.

If you sort through all the BS you come up with the following.

1) Satterlee can't make the actions to the level of quality he wants in a reasonable period of time.

2) The costs of making these actions is much higher and the work much harder then anticipated and he is not making the money he dreamed/hoped he would and is probably losing money.

3) Stuart has no money to send refunds.

4) The business has turned into a pyramid scheme where the newest deposits fund the earliest projects. Without new deposits there is no money to finish the old jobs whose deposits are long since spent.

5) Satterlees bankruptcy is a question of when not if.

It all reminds me of a story my accounting prof told me in college. His cousin was very artistic and opened a printing business. His prices were low and the quality was great. He couldn't figure out what he has doing wrong so my professor went over his books. Naturally he was losing money on every job because he could not accurately price them. He went bankrupt.

quote:

Matt, you are worlds apart from what started this thread. Anybody with any common sense knows that. Those without it aren't worth the effort.........

+1

Wby Power: Thanks for remembering...that was my 500 Jeff and was won by D. Phillips. My knees were toast and the money raised was a god-send. I have two new "hinges" and can walk as long and as far as I want....thanks guys! The generosity promped me to volunteer for the Silver Lining Rifle as a sort of "pay back"...it always comes full circle!

After following this thread since the beginning I have one thing to say. Stuart don't despair! Everbody has learned some serious lessons here. I hope the promises made are kept.

Stuart posted these pictures last month (I hope you don't mind if I re-post them again) and I was very encouraged by them.

As I am only talented as far as mechanics, as being able to perform things in rudimentry detail. I marveled at Stu's accomplishment here.

Mistakes have been made, but to create a small and large ring M98 action. All the things that need to be done to bring it into production. The knowledge just to know what steps have to be made. Stuart do not despair, I as a customer support you.

Roger D.

I would like to know if the Satterlee safetys are available for purchase and immediate delivery.

Mike,
I feel your pain. Australian and American alike are getting screwed on this one.

500 grains,
You have had honesty issues yourself in the past, so you better make yourself scarce on a thread about honesty. You may be forgiven but never forgotten. That is my honest opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Wby Power: Thanks for remembering...that was my 500 Jeff and was won by D. Phillips. My knees were toast and the money raised was a god-send. I have two new "hinges" and can walk as long and as far as I want....thanks guys! The Tenerosity promped me to volunteer for the Silver Lining Rifle as a sort of "pay back"...it always comes full circle!

Duane,

The reason I mentioned the rifle you made was because it tells anyone that ForrestB can organise things. In fact he even baited us in Australia ..and we did top Saeed . So I know that RIP and ForrestB are not in the wrong on this deal. I also know that you are not in the wrong with action/customer because ForrestB (and of course Saaed) would not have supported the raffle.

It must be extremely painful for you with this fuckup.

Mike McGuire

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
OK guys, it looks like we are going to have to be satisfied with Weatherby Mark V's and Savage 110's.

Yep

quote:

500 grains,
You have had honesty issues yourself in the past, so you better make yourself scarce on a thread about honesty. You may be forgiven but never forgotten. That is my honest opinion.

Ron,

Where Dan got burnt was with the "teenut-Bastow" action.....he was all over the gun forums in complaint mode.....HuntAmerica being the first port of call.....I think he even took to 24HourCampFire. Bastow's action first appeared on the very early days of AR....single thread page....As a side note, they were the days when Ray Atkinson and others were sniping at AR from HuntAmerica ....and when HA folded (with some help from yours truly ) they rushed over to AR.

The fact that Dan took it to 24HourCampfire tells you it was a long story

But....Dan's postings on his loss of money on the Bastow action are......

the complete fucking opposite of his posts on this thread

quote:

I would like to know if the Satterlee safetys are available for purchase and immediate delivery.

Howard
Moses Lake WA
hunter7057@gmail.com

I paid in full for a safety 11 months ago and still don't have it. Demanded a refund last week and was told it was going out in the mail. Of course, I was told several times over the past year that the safeties were almost ready. We'll see if the money shows up

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:

quote:

500 grains,
You have had honesty issues yourself in the past, so you better make yourself scarce on a thread about honesty. You may be forgiven but never forgotten. That is my honest opinion.

Ron,

Where Dan got burnt was with the "teenut-Bastow" action.....he was all over the gun forums in complaint mode.....HuntAmerica being the first port of call.....I think he even took to 24HourCampFire. Bastow's action first appeared on the very early days of AR....single thread page....As a side note, they were the days when Ray Atkinson and others were sniping at AR from HuntAmerica ....and when HA folded (with some help from yours truly ) they rushed over to AR.

The fact that Dan took it to 24HourCampfire tells you it was a long story

But....Dan's postings on his loss of money on the Bastow action are......

the complete fucking opposite of his posts on this thread

Teenut?
Golfer, not action builder, may he RIP.

Marc,
Stuart cannot even deliver a safety?
I thought he had practiced up building a bunch of those to learn how to use his CNC.
Next step is to learn to make a receiver on the CNC instead of using his daddy's mill and the hand files like he did on the two or three other actions he has built from scratch in the last 10 years.

Someone correct me if I am wrong on this. It is the only thing that makes sense considering his production speed. Has Stuart ever made the first action using his CNC-CAD-CAM-Wunder-Machinus-Ex-Diablo?

quote:

A mate of mine in Australia almost got caught with the crowd that have the German sounding name....they took over the Noreen action....Wabenfriek of some similar name.

Mike can you elaborate on this? jorge

I believe he is referring to Waffenfabrik Hein located in Washington state.

quote:

Marc,
Stuart cannot even deliver a safety?
I thought he had practiced up building a bunch of those to learn how to use his CNC.
Next step is to learn to make a receiver on the CNC instead of using his daddy's mill and the hand files like he did on the two or three other actions he has built from scratch in the last 10 years.

THey were supposed to be ready when I sent the money last March. Then every time I PM'd him it was "just two more weeks and I will ship it to you." Well, those were the times he responded.

I have posted this before-one time I screwed a guy on schedule. I mean really screwed him. He loves the rifle and even contacted me last year to see if I would do another project for him. But that is beside the point-regardless of how happy he is now, I was totally in the wrong. I learned a lot from that experience and vowed to never let anything like that happen again.

Since that time have I hit every schedule on the nose? Hell no! BUT...I am proactive with communication and let folks know what is going on and give them a new ETA. And if they should email or call me first, I respond as soon as is possible for me.

Any good project manager will tell you that a project is a project. There are some idisyncracies with the gunamking industry that throw a curve or two out there, but soemthing like scheduling and budgets make up 90% of what a project is to the manager. The other 10% is being a referee.

There is no excuse for missing scheduels and then going MIA. Schedules are missed every day, but good project managers proactively handle it. It begins with communication with the client and then turns to figuring out what can be done to expedite the deliverables so as to minimize the bleeding. Hiding from a client is the second worst thing that a project manager can do.

The worst thing that a project manager can do is to talk to his clients like Stuart did in this thread. Inexcusable and long term consequences should be paid.

Don't even get me started on Hein. I have real money tied up there and am expecting to be left in the cold holding my little you know what in my hand. At least Stuart only has me on the hook for a safety.

Jorge,

He was about ready to go ahead and send the deposit for two complete rifles with the glass stocks. However, he smelled a rat. See the last bit of Marc's post above.

I know you have one coming in 450 Dakota and I hope it all works out OK. At least with a calibre like that it is not as if you are waiting for what might classed as the main rifle in collection.

Unfortunately the history of this sort of stuff is not good and the story seems to unfold the same way each time. I remain convinced that these blokes have good intentions but the root of the problem is the actions are too cheap.

Mike

I put down money on two Heins bout a year and a half ago. At the time I was promised delivery in Jan of this year.

That deadline has been missed but Greg has always replied to my emails in a reasonably prompt time.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:

quote:

I would like to know if the Satterlee safetys are available for purchase and immediate delivery.

Howard
Moses Lake WA
hunter7057@gmail.com

I paid in full for a safety 11 months ago and still don't have it. Demanded a refund last week and was told it was going out in the mail. Of course, I was told several times over the past year that the safeties were almost ready. We'll see if the money shows up

I ordered two safeties from Stuart. Originally I ordered the left hand safeties. Then, a few months later Stuart let everyone know that he had changed the style of the right hand safeties to look more like an original mauser safety. So I emailed a note to Stuart that I wanted to change my order. I received an email back from him within a couple of days stating that my order had been changed.

A few months later I emailed and inquired if the safeties were finished, and advised Stuart that I wanted to finish a project, and that if the safeties weren't ready that was fine but I would have to use Dakota safeties instead. I provided him with a copy of our contract and within a week I had my safeties.

I am attaching a photo of them. I have loaned one to TC1 so that he can get a project done right away. I have the other one left as I have not gotten my project off the ground. So, If someone has one on order from STuart and needs one immediately I would be happy to loan this last one out until you get yours from Stuart. I am looking forward to visiting with Stuart later this spring and placing an order for one of his actions.

I have 2 rifles that have been with one gunsmith for 6 years, and another 2 rifles that have been with another gunsmith for 2 years. If any of those projects come back completed, I am certain the quality will be good. However, I face the situation with equanimity, because to do otherwise would lead to high blood pressure, heart disease and early death.

WRF/ol'blue, your offer appears to be sort of like trying to buy a friend, good luck!!!!!!!
Hell, if ya don't get any offers, send it to me, I'll be your friend till it gets here....

quote:

Don't even get me started on Hein. I have real money tied up there and am expecting to be left in the cold holding my little you know what in my hand.

Marc, can you elaborate on this please. I have rifle on order with Hein and your post does give one reason to ponder! jorge