Hi
My brother and I want one gun for North America. Texas to Alaska. Including Brown Bears. We have narrowed it down to 7mm RUM vs 7mm STW. What are your thoughts, ofcourse they will be built on a ss rem 700 action (w/ Sako extractor) with a Rimrock syn stock.
Dr B

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Hi
My brother and I want one gun for North America. Texas to Alaska. Including Brown Bears. We have narrowed it down to 7mm RUM vs 7mm STW. What are your thoughts, ofcourse they will be built on a ss rem 700 action (w/ Sako extractor) with a Rimrock syn stock.
Dr B

The minimum for bear, at least as told by many Alaskans, is the .338WM. However, most bears killed by Alaska hunters drop to the .30-06, .300WM, and the .338WM. The .338WM, because of the heavier bullets, which also benefit from an excellent SD, is a great Alaska cartridge.

I wouldnt pick either. If you must pick a long magnum I would suggest a 30 caliber because you can then go up to a heavier bullet.

375 H&H

Dr B nothing wrong with a 7mm in any cal. for North Am. ibut not including our coastal brownbears----nawww! Up close and personal with them chances are against you,you'd end up as bear poop. As they say their is no such caliber that truly exist that can do it all - all the time. I would say the .338 could do it all if you cornered me and too, make sure you're components are sound and can endure all conditions without exception.

45-70...because you would be HUNTING

Buddy .. your 7mm isn't going to cut it ..
Not a 7MM weatherby Nor a 7MM Super Van hoffman
or a 7MMx378 .. its a matter of size and bullet construction.. .. If you dont live in Alaska
you will need a guild .. and pardon me but no guilds going to take you out to Brown bear with a 7MM theres just not enough weight behind the bullet nor is there mass even the best built bullet fired from any 7mm would be limited in its effect it would cause on a brown bear .
A head shot using soilds fired by an expert
might work .. but ..

This is just my two cents worth take it or leave it but you might want to rethink your picks to include somthing in the .308 Or larger
diameter .. check out the prices on a new 30x378
or a 338x378 .. Or a BLR in 300 Winchester mag
its quick and light weight..
You could even get into a vangaurd 300 weatherby for around 500.00 and any good 200 grain or 220 grain will work on bear ..
Or if your brush hunting all the time you might...think about a GS 45/70 good for close range .

But for someone that new to bear hunting ..and BROWN bear to boot to think about using a 7mm RUM Or a 7mm STW .. All you will do is wind up in the head lines ...

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Hi
My brother and I want one gun for North America. Texas to Alaska. Including Brown Bears. We have narrowed it down to 7mm RUM vs 7mm STW. What are your thoughts, ofcourse they will be built on a ss rem 700 action (w/ Sako extractor) with a Rimrock syn stock.
Dr B

Not a good choice at all.

7MM is not an acceptable brown bear round.

If you want a do everything in NA round get a .338win, or a .330 Dakota or a .340 wetherby or a .338RUM.

The last two being pretty far down the list due to the huge honking long barrel you need to truely use them.

prefrence the win.

A .375H&H is also a fair choice if you get it in a reasonably light compact rifle.

I know this isn't what you want to hear but you asked for opinons not a validation of your choice.

Based on the 2 choices, I'd pick the one which could be down-loaded, the most.

Too much speed, not enough umph...

I would recommend the .300 Winchester magnum. There are great factory loadings for anything from proghorn to big bears, and if you handload you could even cook up some varmint rounds or maybe some even heavy dangerous game rounds. Its a great do everything cartridge.

My vote goes to the 338 Lapua Mag. A large selection of bullets from 160 gr to 300 gr provides bullet selection for long range sheep or goats and the heavier bullets for the large bears and heavy antlered animals. The 200 gr bullet can be loaded up to 3300 FPS for long range. The 300 gr can be loaded up to 2900 FPS and deliver 5600 lbs of energy. Additionally, the non-belted case is another plus.

30-06. All day, every day. Light, capable, incredible selection of ammo worldwide off the shelf.

I'd also prefer the 30-06 over the 7mm choices you listed for one reason, bullet weight. I'll take bullet weight over velocity every time...

However, the 30-06 wouldn't be my first choice for your criteria you listed. Either the 338 Win Mag, or the 300 Winchester would be a much better selection in my opinion. Both will handle large bears better than your 7mm's. If you took the bears off the list, then I'd be content with a 7 mag.

There's my 2 cents...

Forget the 7MM's. As stated just not enough bullet. I think you'd be much better served with something between and including the 300WM-338 Ultra.

Mark

Agreed the 7mmm's are not enough gun for the grizzes and brownies. For long shots and stopping power I would look at the 338 Lapua or 340 Wea.

Dak

I think 338 win mag is the smallest gun for all North American Big Game.I like the 338-378 Weatherby even better if you can shoot long range well.The 338 win mag is fine for Deer out to 500 yards,elk 400 yards,moose about 300 yards,and big bears as long as they are at leasy 25 yards away.You get in a tent with bears three feet away and no gun evewn a 50bmg is too big,Been there done that.I hunt mostly with 416 Rem mag in thicket and for tent and 338 win mag and 338-378 weatherby for the rest.

Thanks for all the good advice. I know that if you try for one all purpose rifle you will have to make sacrifices on one or both ends of the spectrum. I don't shoot varmits except the occasional chance encounter. I probly will only hunt alaska several times in the future and that will be with a guide. Most of my hunting will be whitetail, mule deer, and elk.
When the chance does arise that I can make a bear hunt I want to shoot the gun I'm most familiarr with. Picking up a gun that you don't know like the back of your hand, for a DG hunt, is a recipe for disaster. I would rather put a 7mm 160gr TSX in the right place than make a poor shoot with a 200gr .308cal or a 225gr .338cal. I have no doubt that the 7mm will penatrate to the vitals from any angle including a Alaskan Heart Shot.

I would like to hear from some bear guides as to what their minimum is for clients rifles.

If 458win is out there I would be intrested in your opinion.

Dr B

Based on your first post, it looks like your primary criteria is to build a long range deer rifle, and there is nothing wrong with that. It would not be the best NA gun, but I can understand building a gun based more towards what you'll use most.

That said, if you can shoot a hot 7mm, you can certainly handly a 300 win mag, and IMHO, that is a much more capable all around NA round. I'd also guess your 7 STW or 7 rum is going to be a long barreled gun with a big scope on it, something that isn't that adept to being toted all day in thick cover, or being used for up close shots.

It's only ancedotal evidence, but it seems that I've heard more stories about poor performance on the big bears based on the 7mm rem mag than any other chambering, but that could more based on poor bullet choice than anything else.

Just remember with the big bears there is a big difference between something that will cause the bear to die eventually, and something that is capable of taking out the running the gear. With small bores, you can get either a large dia shallow wound, or a small dia deep wound, but not both.

375 H&H in stainless with synthetic stock. A very versitale round. You can turn down the round and get a great deer hunting cartridge or turn it up and use on anything including African game. Plus the weight of the rifle won't kill you if you are out spot and stalking.

Go stainless if you plan on going to AK for bears or anything else up there.

You won't go wrong.

.376 Steyr or .375 H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Hi
My brother and I want one gun for North America. Texas to Alaska. Including Brown Bears. We have narrowed it down to 7mm RUM vs 7mm STW. What are your thoughts, ofcourse they will be built on a ss rem 700 action (w/ Sako extractor) with a Rimrock syn stock.
Dr B

My question would be what exactly are you going to hunt...and how often...and how experienced are you with a rifle. Worst thing in the world you can do to yourself is develop a nice big flinch with those nice overbore calibers.

And if you want one rifle that will "do it all", why not look at a SIG Blaser with interchangable barrels. .375 barrel for bear, moose and all the heavies. A nice light kicking, flat shooting .257 Weatherby Magnum for those long shots in south Texas.

I have one rifle that will do it all from mice to bears...a Remington M600 in .350 Remington Magnum...just vary the load.

Bob

The big 7mm are fine for the lower 48 but are a tad light for big bears, I personally like the 375 H&H for an all around rifle. Loaded fast with light 250-260gr bullets for smaller game and long range and heavy with 300gr partitions for anything else.

Dr B,

I agree with the '7mm in any flavor isn't enough for BIG BEARS' statements. If you look at that as an opportunity to 'step up' and enjoy studying other cartridges, it'll be fun.

For what you'll be building as a platform and the expected performance of the cartridge, a .300 RUM or .338 RUM would be excellent choices, with the .338 RUM getting the nod for extra oomph on a bear.
I say this with keeping the Remington 700 rifle in mind as it will be a proprietary cartridge, too.
Ross Seyfried was quoted as saying the .340 Wby. shot as flat as a 7mm and hit as hard as a .375 H&H. True that.
The .338 RUM would be in that catagory...

The Remington 700 gets a lot of downplay on this forum sometimes, so be prepared to hear negative comments about it. I am a Remington collector and shooter and would go with the .338 RUM in your case, based on my preference for the rifle.

The comment about the length of the bbl. makes me think of a response I read in a gun magazine some years back ---
"SO?! TAKE A STEP BACK!"
If you think about it, it makes sense. 2" more bbl. is too much...? C'mon.
The suggestion has been made to use a MAGNUM rifle cartridge. It almost goes without saying that 24" or 26" just won't make that much difference in how 'unwieldy' the rifle is going to be. Almost.
If you go to 22" or 20", you're using a "KAR-BYNE" and that doesn't fit the parameter of an 'all-around' North American Rifle, especially in a magnum cartridge.

Up the caliber in you're Remington 700 to .300 or .338 RUM and you're covered!
Good Luck. I hope you enjoy your new rifle!

( ...boy, I hope I didn't tick anybody off this time... )

Sounds to me like you're more interested in having someone validate your choices. They might be perfectly good for most things but bear rifles they are not. If you can afford to hunt in Alaska you can afford a properly chambered rifle to do it with.

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
Sounds to me like you're more interested in having someone validate your choices. They might be perfectly good for most things but bear rifles they are not. If you can afford to hunt in Alaska you can afford a properly chambered rifle to do it with.

The Good Doctor is searching for answers and sounds as if he's thinking correctly in wanting to be able to make a shot with a rifle he can shoot instead of make a miss with one he can't.
Correct me if I'm wrong in presuming that.
I believe I understand what he's getting at.

What I found out with my two rifles in 7mm Rem.Mag. and .338 Win.Mag. was that the 'subjective recoil' wasn't that much different.
Shooting my .338 didn't bother me AT ALL.
I shot it as well as my 7mm, so I sold the .338 and moved up to the .375 RUM, which I have NOT shot yet. I'm SURE that will be a substantial 'step up' in subjective recoil! But, I don't really know yet --- I'm merely guessing.
What I'm trying to convey to Dr B is that between a hyperactive 7mm and its .338 brother, there may exist a similar difference in recoil, or lack thereof, as there was between my lesser magnums of the same bullet diameters.
In that case then, moving UP to .338 RUM from the 7mm RUM would be a good choice based on the opinions given here and still 'validate' his choice of an All-Around North American Rifle.
The difference being that he listened to and investigated the advice and opinions of the Forum Members.
Did I get that right?

I liken it to my looking hard at getting a CZ 550 American Safari in an over .40 caliber, but still having the 'safety motion' I'm used to in the Remington 700.
It makes sense to me to get the features of CRF in that caliber, in a rifle that operates like my Remington 700's.
I have a small hurdle to clear, and then I can accept making the jump.
Same here for Dr B ... move UP, and get DOWN!

.338 Win. Mag no doubt about. 160-185 "X" for small stuff, 225 "X" for big....

338 win mag if you need out to 300 yards and do damage on the big stuff....also see my tagline unless you didnt read my first post. we have too many animal killers and not enough hunters if you get my drift. i think a lot of people can learn alot from bow hunters...sorry i am grumpy today went to the range yesterday and was banging the pig gong at 200 yards with my 45-70 but i dont think that 200 yards is hunting for most game...yes i could run errands and come back for the "gong" after i pulled the trigger but i think 100 yards and under for most game is good.

My taste in rifles is along these lines.
When I saw this particular 700, I decided to model my .375 ULTRA after it. The end result isn't quite the same, but the profile is similar.

http://www.frontlinearmory.com/gunsmithing/rem700/rem700gk.htm



I went with a bit less scope...in a 'tactical' base.
The sights were removed to give a clean bbl. appearance.
Three stocks can be used, including the original, a Hogue pillar-bedded, and a factory 1989 Aralon Synthetic.
Four scopes can be used, including a new NIKON 3.3-10x44 AO and three Leupold 4.5-14x40's, one 'Tactical'.
That's just my preference and the pix show a 'simile' of the one I put together.

busMaster007...
great rifle...i like the 375 ultra

I'm not looking for anyone to validate my choice of rifle and cailber. I already have opinions on this subject and I'm not afraid of anyone dissagreing with them. When some one does dissagre with me I will not turn to personal atttacks out of insecurity if fact I want people to dissagree with me, I want to here their opinions and expericencies. After all disspassionate debate is a excelent way to learn what is happening outside our own little worlds. "Iron sharpens Iron"

Dr B

1) I would not recommend either cartridge as the "best". I doubt any animal would die better or faster with either of these. In the field, these two perform about as close as any 2 cartridges can.

2) With quality bullets, good loads, an accurate rifle and someone that knows how to use it, either will kill all NA game. However, I don't consider either the "best" choice available.

3) With big bears part of the plan, I consider the .338 Win Mag the best choice. The .338 is to Alaska what the .30-06 is to the lower 48.

Hey, Doc!
I offered up the .340 Wby/.338 RUM so you could look at the ballistics compared to the 7mm ULTRA.
I think you want flat shooting power, and the .338 is about the best in that catagory.
You might end up with the best of both worlds.

I know it's difficult to give up on what you like best, but I've been trying to 'wrap my mind' around the .40+cal./CRF and get it in a package I can live with...

It's one of my sayings:
"If you don't like what you're looking at, change the way you're looking at it..."
I guess that's just a different way of saying 'change your perspective'.
It doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means you need to find a Man's way to justify what you're doing!
Once we can justify it, it means THAT'S the way we wanted it in the first place. Yeah! That's the ticket!

If you see it in a different light, you may just end up with TWO Remington RUM's instead of one!
Or you may go 'heavier' and like that just as well.
Only trying to help you out with a different 'perspective'.
Cheers~~~!

quote:

"Iron sharpens Iron"

Pro 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

The problem with your 7mm isn't a question of penetration, it will penetrate. The question is whether or not it will pulverize the shoulder of a mature, male grizzly bear or coastal brown bear. Pulverize the shoulder and then continue on through the vitals, and hopefully wreck everything in between is what you want. The 7mm's don't meet that criteria.

Hunting dangerous game is a different task than hunting a game animal such as deer or elk. In dangerous game, the point is to break the animal down as quickly as possible. Shoulder shots are preferred, if the lungs are hit too, all the better. But the first priority is to take away their wheels. Then you kill them. That's why those with experience in hunting them are recommending 338's as the baseline for hunting bears. You would do well to consider their advice.

458Win will tell you that he has killed Brown Bear with a 30-06, he is also a pro-
fessional guide that is around them all the time. I would say once again that I would choose a 30-06 over a 7mm STW every time because of the better choices in bullet weight.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
I'm not looking for anyone to validate my choice of rifle and cailber. I already have opinions on this subject and I'm not afraid of anyone dissagreing with them. When some one does dissagre with me I will not turn to personal atttacks out of insecurity if fact I want people to dissagree with me, I want to here their opinions and expericencies. After all disspassionate debate is a excelent way to learn what is happening outside our own little worlds. "Iron sharpens Iron"

Dr B

Okay, then I will just say that I do not feel a 7mm anything is an ideal or adequate rifle to use on everything in NA., especially a brown bear. The last 35yrs have seen me trekking over much of our great country and western Canada has shown me that a 30cal rifle is really the best overall for this. BUT, when hunting large brown bears it is not ideal, not even close to ideal IMO. The 338 bore or larger is a far better thing because it has more frontal area and more bullet weight. Brown bears are our most dangerous and are considered by many to be our most prized trophy. They deserve the utmost respect from us as hunters, and that means being adequately armed to handle any encounter. Carrying a 7mm doesn't really fit that scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Hi
My brother and I want one gun for North America. Texas to Alaska. Including Brown Bears. We have narrowed it down to 7mm RUM vs 7mm STW. What are your thoughts, ofcourse they will be built on a ss rem 700 action (w/ Sako extractor) with a Rimrock syn stock.
Dr B

Since you included Alaska, here is something for you (take a look at the most popular cartridges up here):
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=pubs.hntbul8#cartridges

Well I don't know how anyone can say a 30/06 can kill any better then a 7mm STW or RUM? The STW and RUM have just as much Energy or more then a 300win with a 180gr and A higher SD to boot. I have some custom 200gr bullets for my STW and I am shooting them at 2894fps and they have an SD of .354 tell me that won't make it into a bears boiler room from any angle. That has a higher sd then any 375 or 40cal bullet I have seen. I say if you are going with a guide the 7mm is fine. A guide wants you to be able to shoot the animal in the right spot the first time. If everyone needed to carry a 458win with a guide what exactly do you need the guide for? I have talked to some guides who have even let there clients use a 270 with 150 Partitions on the big bears and a bullet through the lungs killed the bear just fine. Take what you can shoot and if the guide says you need a great big cannon that you can't shoot find another guide. If I ever needed a guide I would be going with Phil Shoemaker as I feel he is one of the best.

It would depend on what NA game I would be hunting the most.
If I had to leave today on the Ultimate NA Safari, and I was going to shoot ONE of each NA game animal I would take a 300 Mag.
Howefer If I shot mostly elk moose and bear I would rather have a 338, 340 WBY or a 375 H&H.
I still believe if you can afford to hunt all NA game you can afford more than one rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
Well I don't know how anyone can say a 30/06 can kill any better then a 7mm STW or RUM? The STW and RUM have just as much Energy or more then a 300win with a 180gr and A higher SD to boot. I have some custom 200gr bullets for my STW and I am shooting them at 2894fps and they have an SD of .354 tell me that won't make it into a bears boiler room from any angle. That has a higher sd then any 375 or 40cal bullet I have seen. I say if you are going with a guide the 7mm is fine. A guide wants you to be able to shoot the animal in the right spot the first time. If everyone needed to carry a 458win with a guide what exactly do you need the guide for? I have talked to some guides who have even let there clients use a 270 with 150 Partitions on the big bears and a bullet through the lungs killed the bear just fine. Take what you can shoot and if the guide says you need a great big cannon that you can't shoot find another guide. If I ever needed a guide I would be going with Phil Shoemaker as I feel he is one of the best.

At close range that fast bullet at 2894fps is going to expand real fast. But launch the same bullet much slower, and it will help with penetration. In fact a 400-grain (or so) bullet out of the .458 at maybe 2300 fps, will go through the bear, and put a bigger hole through it than your 7mm.

Sectional density of an unexpanded bullet is not very indicative of penetration unless you are shooting solids. Smaller calibers tend to expand more relative to their starting point than larger calibers. The sectional density that matters is the sectional density of the EXPANDED bullet, which is a variable of impact velocity, bullet construction etc. In an STW or 7 RUM, that 200 grain bullet is going to expand quite a bit; probably to at least .600." In contrast, most 400 gr .416 bullets are lucky to expand to .800" (I have recovered some 400 gr TBBC shot out of a .416 Rigby into wood). That 400 gr .416 bullet expanded to .8 is going to penetrate MUCH further than a 200 gr 7mm bullet expanded to .6. In actual practice, I highly doubt that a 7mm 175 gr bullet (S.D. .310) will penetrate very differently than a .30 cal 180 gr (S.D. .271), or a .30 cal 220 gr (S.D. .331) will penetrate very differently than a .338 cal 225 gr (S.D. .281). That is the real problem with using 7's for everything. The absolute heaviest you can go is a 200 gr pill. While it probably is adequate, I would certainly like to have a much bigger entrance wound and heavier bullet. Then again, the lightest rifle I own is a .300 WSM; the lightest I actually use a .300 Wby.

I took my Brown Bear with a .300 Winny and a 200 grain Nosler Partition going 2900 fps, that experience taught me to use something larger the next trip to Alaska in big Bear country. I now pack a .358 STA loaded with a 270 grain North Fork bullet at 2900 fps, and it will do the job. The STA would be my choice as the ideal North American chambering. Yep, I have to make my own cartridges, but hell, I haven't shot a factory round in 30 years. Good shooting.