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Attached are some images of the Rigby operation in California:  Goeff Miller with a Hoenig pantograph  A stock being finished  Three double rifles at Rigby's range for regulation.  An action ready to have it's stock fitted. Perhaps Mr. Nerving would share some images of the interior of his factory. | |||
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JPK- Look at the barrel profile and the detail where the 'quarter rib' meets the rib extension (angle-grinder blend of weld).
Actually, I can see the seam at the forward edge of the barrel flats. Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Forced proof in Suhl, October, 1999. Just looking at the lines you can tell that the weight distribution would be bad at a normal weight of 10.5. At 13 lbs, this is gym equipment rather than a hunting rifle. --------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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400NE- Thanks for the edit. I wonder if those proof marks are/were for shotgun tubes that got cut off in the US.
I'm guessing that the spotfaced and hand-stamped marks are from the PasoRobles workshop. Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Why does Mr. Miller feel the need for a pantograph? Doesn't CalRigby have anyone capable of making and fitting a proper stock? How can you get proper cast off and drop for a proper fit from a pantograph? You might as well just make them out of fiberglass. Is this attempt at baiting London Rigby easier than just making a good product? Gator A Proud Member of the Obamanation "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 "There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them." George Orwell | |||
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Could be. German proof requires stamping of caliber, which is absent. One of the milled spots is where Suhl usually stamps the caliber. Impossible to say what was there. Look at how close to the shooter's face the rear sight is.  -------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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400NE- As I'm a stock crawler that rear sight wouldn't work out for me at all.
Any way it goes, in the here/now - as our friend Steve (from California) notes,  Hi Steve! ...the general level of quality out of the Central California shop has come a long way from the kind of thing seen in the photos you and I were just discussing. I really do think that there's a special and loyal market just for Mr Miller here in the US I don't think he has a thing to worry about, and I seriously doubt that anyone who had resisted buying a modern Rigby based on the style/quality/price of product coming out of his shop would likely have magically come around to the order desk this year -- whether the Ltd. had come around or not Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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I'm thinking all this speculation, controversy, and attention is doing amazing things for enquiries and even the order book.  If the product displayed is desirable, the orders will come from the attention. If not, something else needs fixing ...  | |||
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Triple post. | |||
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Triple post. I hate it when the screen freezes! | |||
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I would not totally agree but certainly it is easy to tell a bench made British gun from a bench made Beretta or, less so, Browing. More so different, a lot so, on a gun engraved in Spain. Why? Well, for one the engraving style will be different. Not better, or worse, but just different. Something to do with the way it is done. Indeed I'd say that engraving done on "custom" Smith & Wesson revolvers was nearer the "English" style than that done by Beretta or in Spain. AS to two names I'm old enough to remember there being two "Zeiss" rifle 'scope makers. That in West Germany and then "Carl Zeiss" in Jena. I had a Carl Zeiss on my BRNO ZKK 600...later ones omitted the Carl Zeiss and just had "Aus Jena" on them. I think this is really a whole can of worms and ultimately I'd have no interest in buying from either of these Rigby concerns. And why in any case a bolt rifle? Don't you have enough good, nay superb, "wizards" with bench made bolt action rifles in the USA to resort to this "name" nonsense? After all you pretty much in USA "wrote the book" on making fine sporting rifles out of surplus Mauser actions... | |||
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Every time I see one of these rifles I want to scream, "Go to the chalk board and write 1000 times, I will not put a beavertail (or semi) foerend on a double rifle!" To each his own, but again, that says to me that they just don't get it. The new Rigby probably won't affect their market share one bit though, as there will always be people bedazzled by fancy wood and 'swirly' engraving and who won't look past that. Sort of the old A2 argument that "if an expensive rifle is ugly, that means the builder spent the money on the INSIDE." Sure Art, that or it is just overpriced. Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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Does the US made Rigby have stamped "made in USA" or similar? I know Brit guns have at least England in the makers lettering and London or Birmingham proofs , A double rifle with german proofs stamped on it BEFORE the rifle is finished means it is not proofed at all!! Rigby USA may make nice custom doubles but they are not true Rigby's , Why not trade under the Miller name and be like Searcy? 12x12/9.3x74R | |||
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I agree. They're probably decent rifles, apart from the occasional 13lb 470. It is trying to be something that it clearly isn't that is distasteful. As many others have stated, for the same price I'd rather have a Merkel or Chapuis. They are what they are and make no bones about it. Regarding the 'proofs', that was my first thought also. As soon as they alter or obilterate the marks the gun is out of proof. Could this explain their low to non-existant sales outside of the US? DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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I am a little confused. The thread is titled "John Rigby re-opening for business". It seems to have turned in to lets crucify Rigby of California, even though he bought the right to the Rigby name. Now we have another group building a rifles using the Rigby name. Their quality may or may not be good. Miller paid a specified amount for the right, the new guys did not. Must be nice to keep your start-up cost low. Whether or not Miller builds a good rifle does not give anybody the right to use the Rigby name. It may be legal in England but it sure as hell is not ethical in my eyes. Keep bashing Miller, at least he paid for the right to be ridiculed. This should be an exciting time with a new English double and Luxus bringing out their new double. I would love to fly to England and have an English double built for my 6-3 left hand frame at the prices quoted in this thread. At this point it just will not have the Rigby name on it. | |||
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He bought the right to use the name he uses in the US, not the UK. if he wanted to use the name in the UK, then all he had to do was register it and pay the registration fee. | |||
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By the way, Who owns the name 'Woodward' today? Woodward was one of the topmakers of 'Best' guns and rifles. I would love to see new English made Woodwards on the market again! (But i would probably not be able to buy one..) | |||
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The Woodward name is owned by Purdey (bought as far back as 1947) and yes, you can actually order a new Woodward-branded gun from them today. | |||
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Mike- I do not believe that you are confused. I'd believe you if you just said you think it's not fair (or something to that effect) Although it seems (I haven't seen any of the contracts) that the Paso Robles shop paid for the claim to the Rigby name (and that he's likely protected that right, for use here in the US) -- that isn't what earned him the lashings that some of these guys are giving him. The ridicule is all merit-based. The ridicule is *the* component that he has *earned* by way of his actions. Money bought the name, actions earned the ridicule. The ridicule appears to have all to do with perceived quality/finish/value of the product he's offered under the Rigby name.
Here's the good news for anyone who wants to lend him continued support. There's nothing stopping anyone from cutting him a check and having him build them a rifle. Miller paid for the Rigby name because he wanted it and for it he had to pay. It's Perfectly OK to help him pay for it by way of a commission. Why can't this be a Win-Win for all!!? Buy the Paso Robles Rigby and be proud of it! Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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The real brisket-twisting question then...
...is "Who Owns Purdey?" !! Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Purdey are owned by Richemont, who also own a large number of prestige brands in different sectors like Montblanc, IWC, etc. A very interesting bet on a business model and yet to prove itself, especially in the current market. | |||
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That would be Richemont, listed on the Swiss stock exchange - stu | |||
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I am not taking up for Miller's quality. I do not know enough about his firearms. If it is as bad as it seems he will go away eventually. The typical Double Rifle purchaser seems to be sophisticated. I feel the London Rigby company did a disservice to themselves by starting the company with the Rigby name. Instead of running down Miller, I would rather see a lengthy thread extolling the virtues of the new gun, which is what would make me want to purchase one. However, that certainly would not be fun. | |||
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Mike- I'm sure that there will somehow be controversy and tit-for-tatty banter around this new turn of events. I'm also sure that there will be some very nice equipment coming out of London from the Ltd. effort, and there will be conversations here and elsewhere on the neat new guns and rifles. You can bet that there will be snit and bicker coming from those who are loyal to the CA effort saying this London business isn't fair, and snit and bicker from those who feel that the (expensive, 'premium')CA effort has essentially been a campaign of 'Taxation without Representation' (MexiMerkel does not equal Rigby etc...) It looks to me that the London effort will be offering some low-low prices on (from what I can tell) nice looking equipment. Of all the possible choices in the price range, I'd sit back and see what comes out of the London Rigby effort. For a 'cheap rifle' I'd bet that there will be very very good enduring value in the money spent - both in the 'nuts and bolts' durable goods kind of respect, and also in collector value.
I'm looking forward to it, and frankly I think it's going to be a big hoot for all! Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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I see. So, what if an American bought Rolls Royce and moved the company to the US, and started badging aftermarket Chevys with "RR" and the Spirit of Ecstacy hood ornament? Would that be legal? Probably. Would that be "ethical" though? It would be in your book, even though plainly fraudulent and disgraceful as hell. That's exactly what Miller did with Rigby. There was never any attempt to market the real thing. Personally, I don't think there was ever any intent to do so either. When a patent, trademark, registered business name, etc., that's registered around the world is purchased, and the purchaser elects to let the foreign registrations lapse to save a little money, that's a business decision with a precisely defined risk. The owner knows full well that a foreign entity can pick it up and use it. It happens all the time. Is it unethical for them to do so? No, there's no patent, trademark, registered name, etc. CA Rigby didn't think that the name had enough value to even bother protecting it in it's COUNTRY OF ORIGIN. The products they've badged with the name of the US company have eliminated any goodwill associated with the it. Why would anyone with any knowledge of the trade want to buy it? CA Rigby bought the UK name and discarded it, so there was no need to buy it. Registering it was all that was required. As for the guns themselves, US Rigby's have failed to rise to the level of "knock offs". UK Rigby's stated interest is to build the real thing, and their first gun looks good. As for unethical conduct, that charge sticks like glue to US Rigby in my view. They've done nothing but prostitute the name. UK Rigby's challenge is to build the value of the name again. If they can, more power to 'em. ---------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Try again here with a tech question for the Rigby spokesman  DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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A few thoughts: A lot of people don't like the California Rigby's, is it because they are badged "Rigby", or because they are poor Rifles.- a retorical question you need not reply, we all know where everyone stands at this point. A lot of lawyers/wanna be lawyers opining over issues that they are not qualified to comment upon. If there are real legal issues, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are, let those who deal with them everyday comment, or just let it play out in court. If it does go to court, I'd hold on to my money until everything is resolved. A lot of effusive praise for what, so far, is smoke and mirrors. Some photos of one shotgun, a price list for guns yet to be produced, a generous, but financially questionable, offer for owners of a competitor's product, and a name steeped in history and tradition but referring to a business and individuals who have nothing whatsoever to do with this venture. If this enterprise were named "Acme Double Rifles" everyone would be suggesting that we wait and see some actual products rather that getting seduced by a slick marketing campaign. This may indeed be the best thing that has happened to the double rifle market in the last 100 years. It could also be a disaster. All we know is that they are making big promises but, to date, have delivered nothing. In addition, the only one connected with the company that has clearly identified gun making expertise is the engraver. I suggest that you curb your enthusiasm until this new company proves that they can walk the walk. Pictures of one shotgun isn't enough for me. I hope that they are successful. Hell I hope that California Rigby is successful. But I ain't buyin until I hold one in my hot little hands. | |||
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400 NE I do not disagree with most of what you wrote. Rigby of California damn sure should have protected the Rigby name in the UK and Europe for that matter. But if they want to build BB guns with the Rigby name, it may be stupid, but they paid for the right to be stupid. Still I would have preferred the anouncement to be "(insert name other than Rigby) is now offering high quality Double rifles built in the finest traditions of the best British gunmakers" or something like that. You know as much (or more) about double rifles as anybody on this forum. As I wrote above I would rather the conversation be about how good or bad the new rifle is or will be. Please tell me why the rising third bite action is so desirable and why chopper lump barrels are better. (These questions are sincere, not trying to be a smartass) | |||
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Terry- Something for you to consider is that there are very likely quite a few men in this conversation who know quite a bit more than they'd say in this kind of forum. I can see that there is a fair bit of foundation to the enthusiasm behind the London effort. Also, of the 'support staff' noted on the Ltd. website, *both* of the men noted there have ages of top-shelf London Guntrade experience in their resumes. The one you missed very likely has more 'gunbuilding' experience than the (fabulous) Mr Hunt (who is at the very top of his end of the trade) Mike- Do note and keep in mind this - that it was not the gunbuilder who started this thread. Someone who'd been digging for information found the new (not yet fully developed) website and 'outed' it to this group as a spirited 'FYI' I wish great success to all. Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Thats exactly what a number of us have said here.
There's nothing stopping them, nor is there any reason for them to pay any attention to events in Britain. All they have to do is build some real Rigby's, and the guys in the UK won't have a prayer. They've had 12 years now and haven't done it yet. Either have some decent rifles built in London by Roberts, or figure out how to do it right themselves. Mono-bloc barrels, 13 lb .470s, tarted up Merkels, etc., don't even get you in the same ZIP code with the big name league. US Rigby has been trying to put themselves out of business the entire time, and they've just about succeeded. Their survival depends on their ability to correct the problems with their guns, not on what happens in some court. Unfortunately, their window of opportunity isn't finite. ------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Phew! I started to read this thread from start to finish and gave up! We have SEVEN PAGES of comments and haven't seen a gun yet. There are certainly some experts on this forum who don't like the weight, fit and finish of the Ca. Rigby doubles. These same folks do not like the balance or handling of the newer doubles made by Krieghoff etc. So, it seems to me the only way the London Rigby folks will succeed is if they can make a new double that handles like the "traditional British doubles". If they do, at the price point of the Class B doubles, they will undoubtably succeed, and I will probably buy one! I am not sure that the name really matters. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I believe there are pictures of a 12-bore shotgun posted here. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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+1 I found at www.192.com that there are 26 persons with the name 'John Rigby' living in London right now. So, we might confuses our selves with the Mr John Rigby that moved to California some years ago, with one of the 26 Mr John Rigby living in London today. Onestly there must be more than just one John Rigby (who obviously emigrated to USA) that can make a decent double rifle -isn't it? 'William Evans from Purdey's' -does Purdey like that??? | |||
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Hell, Mike, I personally don't think that it is! The Rigby-Bissell rising bite top fastener was complex and expensive to make. Because it was so unusual, it really set Rigby apart at a time when competition in the trade was fierce, and it became indelibly identified with the name for the ages. The old rising bite guns bring amazing prices today. They're chic, and everybody wants one. Rigby supplanted the rising bite in the teens with the Webley & Brain Patent top fastener, a better, more positive lock that was cheaper to make. I much prefer the later Webley type, but I'm in the minority. A friend just bought a pair of Rigby rising bites that needed work, and dropped them off with his long time London actioner (ex-Purdey). Man said "Sure, I can do it, but it's gonna cost you".
The bottom line is that when buying a high end double gun at the kind of prices that US Rigby lists, there are certain badges of quality that are expected in today's world, or the price can't be justified. Chopper lump barrels are one of them (lumps are integral to the barrels). Mono-block barrels work and are a LOT cheaper, but have no place on double rifles starting at $33,000. It's a cut corner, and that's not what you pay for when you pay quality price. ------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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If you want to see another California Rigby, Frank Martinez has posted of picture for Biebs of his .500 NE. Maybe I don't have the expertise to evaluate these pictures but it sure looks like a nice rifle to me. See it here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/2001036411/p/1 Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave- Here's a Merkel, and it actually has animals engraved on the metal...   It's got cocking indicators too! New, out the door, it costs a fraction of what the Rigby you show above. another...   Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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For those readers of this exchange who are interested in the quality of Rigby rifles and shotguns, a visit to the 2010 Safari Club International (SCI) Exhibition in Reno, Nevada would be quite helpful. As one of the leading contributors to SCI, Rigby has a very large and centrally placed booth where the full range of their products are displayed. Geoff Miller has built bespoke firearms for President G.H.W. Bush (41), General Norman Schwarzkopf (Ret.), General Chuck Yeager (Ret.) and the late Robert Petersen – the publisher of Guns & Ammo magazine (and countless others) whose collection of fine firearms was one of the world’s largest.  A the 2009 SCI Exhibition, Miller had the honor of a visit and some ‘gun-talk’ with United States Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. American readers will understand the significance of Justice Scalia in the fight to protect our Second Amendment rights.  Below are two pages from a 2008 feature article about Rigby in the Russian magazine Hunting & Fishing. The images are intended to focus on the engraving and gold-inlay that are frequently requested by Miller’s clients. (These files are in .pdf form, and I am not sure how to post the images on them, but here are links to them) http://img18.imageshack.us/i/oir0807023.pdf/ http://img19.imageshack.us/i/elephant.pdf/ | |||
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Steve, what is your connection with Rigby? You register here after the thread starts and you post PR copy from CalRigby like an employee or hired consultant might. FYI, both Bush, Schwarzkopf and most other Saturday Night Speakers are given free guns for appearing at SCI. They typically ask for something they don't have and makers are happy to knock off a freebie for them for the advertising. Gator A Proud Member of the Obamanation "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 "There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them." George Orwell | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JPK: We have since continued to make J. Rigby & Co. rifles and shotguns in England using craftsmen long associated with the Rigby name. PAUL ROBERTS [QUOTE] Is there any way to verify this statement thru the London Proof House? Are the records of these "London Rigbys" available? NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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The point of contention is not the quality or lack thereof of the El Rigbero rifles. The story goes like this: There used to be a British firm dedicated to build things like these:   An American bought the NAME of the company, did not think it necessary to retain the tools, didn't bother to consider that maybe the employees' and subcontractors expertise had some sort of importance, thought that clients and aficionados didn't know their left from their right, moved the operation in a different country with different traditions, different tastes, different ideas, bought German bases that he embellished according to the tastes of his village, multiplied the price a few times to make it look luxurious, and tried to sell this:  Now, anyone who needs more explanations can go and buy himself whatever he wants, he probably deserves it. Philip | |||
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