quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
I believe that the Browning B-SS SxS were made in Japan in the 80's. I have a 20 gauge made in Japan in a sidelock. They made both sidelock and boxlock. Browning did advertise a sidelock SxS in the last 10 years, it was made by LeBaux. I don't think it made it into production though.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
500N

Thanks, good to know. Now I have to look for one of the Belgian ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Butch Searcy:
txlonghorn,
You better look for the Jap action. The steel in them was far better. Had a chromoly content superior to the Belgium.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Frank,

yes, but...

He made quite a few, on the Browning Belgian Made B-SS SxS 20 and 12 gauge shotguns. He went to Browning and asked for assistance. They were pleased to share heat treating and proofing information with him, IIRC. He told the world what and how he was doing it.
Kalifornia Rigby has been very secretive about buying used, in many cases German shotguns, grinding off some of the ID marks, etc; and trying to pass them off as bespoke DR actions. They, imho, disingenuous at best. They also are trying to get real Rigby prices for them. It is difficult to understand how Geoff Miller stays in business. Then, there is the Navy SEAL, Navy Cross issue. My personal opinion is that he is a Charlatan, not even up to the level of David Kokesh during his tenure at Dakota Arms.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:
I would like to offer an update and opinion on the Rigby squabble.

As I understand the situation, you can now buy a Rigby rifle from one of three sources: -

1. California. Geoff Miller's firm, John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers) inc., the business that bought the Rigby name and trademark from Paul Roberts and which now manufactures Rigby rifles in Paso Robles. A Miller gun is sometimes cruelly called a 'Mexican Rigby.' Miller has taken a bashing over the years, being accused of producing inferior guns that are not worthy of the Rigby name.

2. London. The new company founded by Mark Neal, selling guns under the name John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers) Limited. These are claimed as guns that revert to the true Rigby quality and tradition although have yet to gain a reputation in the field.

3. London. Paul Roberts is apparently now building a limited number of Rigby guns in London using traditional London gunmaking methods, under license from Geoff Miller.

This is all a bit like trying to identify the world heavyweight boxing champion, when the title is being simultaneously claimed by the WBO, the WBC and the other one. Everyone wants a unification bout, so that we can get a proper champ.

In the meantime however, which is the best Rigby to buy? (for someone who can afford one).

My sympathies lie with Geoff Miller, even though he clearly did a poor deal by leaving such a gaping hole in his flank (I wonder what action he is taking against his lawyer, who agreed the contract and let him get into this mess). However, while sympathetic, it makes me uncomfortable that too many people are saying he has been downgrading the product and living off the Rigby marque.

Mark Neal's new London company makes some strong points and it is a good thing, in a way, to see someone trying to re-establish what was without doubt one of the very best traditional gunmakers. But I can't get over the fact that they seem to have acted...badly, slyly, and I would be wary of doing business with them.

And then Paul Roberts, who sold the Rigby business to Miller in the first place and who has the reputation of being one of the best gunmakers in the world. He now owns the W Jeffery marque and builds most of his guns under that name. I assume that Roberts is helping Miller out by offering a London built rival that Mark Neal's company would find it hard to compete with in terms of pedigree and ability.

Of the three, if I were having a Rigby rifle built, I would use Paul Roberts. He has the knowledge, the skill, the reputation and an un-tainted name. However, I doubt if many people people will splash out and order a new Rigby until the dust settles and until the 'real' Rigby emerges.

I like Rigby rifles. I have an old Rigby 275 which I use as my primary deer gun. I used to have a second Rigby, which I sold a couple of years ago (and still regret selling).

I think that Geoff Miller could surprise people and pull off a coup. I hope he does, because I believe he has the moral right on his side. My two cents as to what will happen, for what it's worth, (and this is pure guesswork) is that: -

a) Geoff Miller will migrate the manufacture of most of his gunmaking back to London, where they will be built by Paul Roberts, under license. Miller will own and control the London company with Roberts having a minority stake to ensure that he stays on board.

b) Paul Roberts will sub-contract the real cream of the work to the new Rigby company, who have set themselves up to make the top-of-the-range 'Rising Bite' guns. Roberts will then directly build the more 'ordinary' (if I can use that name with a Rigby rifle) working guns.

c) Geoff Miller will make highly accurate top-end bolt action rifles in California. He will change the name but keep some sort of linkage, perhaps calling it something like the Miller-Rigby .

d) They will all hate each other for evermore.

Time will tell.

quote:

I think that Geoff Miller could surprise people and pull off a coup.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
Two important facts. Geoff Miller does NOT own Rigby's in Cal. and Paul Roberts does not own Jeffery's in London.
My thoughts... Neither one of these men can personally build a first class rifle. They are managers. Paul Roberts being head and shoulders above Miller.
The reason Miller has asked Roberts to build some guns under the Rigby name in London is so when he goes to court against M. Neal he can claim that even though the name had officially lapsed in England, they still had business dealings there.

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:
I think that Geoff Miller could surprise people and pull off a coup. I hope he does, because I believe he has the moral right on his side.

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:

However this is completely separate from the second point, which is whether or not what has happened is morally right. Miller bought the rights to build guns using the Rigby name, including the right to use the distinctive Rigby trademark. That is the situation as I understand it. What has happened now is that another firm has set up another company, using the name Rigby and started building guns that lay claim to being 'Rigbys.' That just does not seem right to me, irrespective of whether the guns that have been built by Miller are judged to be fantastic or crappy.

quote:

Originally posted by john rigby:
I'd like to inform all interested parties that our bankruptcy proceedings was a chapter 11 and everyone listed as a creditor was paid in full and we were then discharged by the court...further, we never hid the fact that we were useing Merkel action bodies (greener crossbolt) and that was made public years ago in an article by Silvio Calabi in SHOOTING SPORTSMAN in the january issue of 2001. He also explained why under a "Question of strength"

If I was being investigated by the FBI how would anyone know unless they were with the FBI...I wouldn't think they would let anyone know that there was an on going investigation.

I would also like to say that Butch Searcy is a fine and decent an American as can be found. I have known him for years, consider him a friend
and a fine craftsman...I believe there may be someone out there that has offered to help the new British Company destroy the American Double gun business in return for free guns and hunts.

If anyone wishes to talk to me about anything I can be reached at Rigby's 5 days a week...

I may be loud, fat and obnoxious but I have about 300 folks who like our products and there must be some reason for that............

Oh ! By the way Steve Helsley does not have one of our guns...has never been beholden to us for any reason and was one of the founders of "The concours of excellence of fine guns " after a long and distinguished career in Law Enforcement......Both his reputation and character are impeccable

Someone had commented about the 30 year old in our Booth who said he could do everything to build a double gun...His Name is Brandon Holquin and he can... with the exception of checkering and engraving..

All my boys were trained by Jerry Swanson who spent his entire career at Purdey's and then worked on Peter Nelsons guns (which were cconsidered the best there was)

Any and everyone is welcome to come see the facility and how we do things..We have absolutely nothing to hide and would appreciate the opportunity to do so...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I had a good friend die in Vietnam saving the lives of two wounded members of his Ranger team.
He went back, under heavy fire and dragged one wounded man back. He was wounded then. He went back to get his RTO and sustained a second wound to the chest which proved fatal that night. Those two team members both lived to carry his casket at his funeral. He was posthumously awarded the Army Silver Star, which is the Navy equivalent. The next step up is the Congressional Medal of Honor. A tremendous percentage of those medals are awarded for heroism that results in the death on the man who was awarded it. My friend sacrificed his life to save two wounded American soldiers in a firefight.

That's the issue. There is only right or wrong here.

Only Butch Searcy builds quantity DR's in America. Everybody else assembles parts, some domestic, some imported.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:

quote:

Originally posted by john rigby:
I'd like to inform all interested parties that our bankruptcy proceedings was a chapter 11 and everyone listed as a creditor was paid in full and we were then discharged by the court...further, we never hid the fact that we were useing Merkel action bodies (greener crossbolt) and that was made public years ago in an article by Silvio Calabi in SHOOTING SPORTSMAN in the january issue of 2001. He also explained why under a "Question of strength"

If I was being investigated by the FBI how would anyone know unless they were with the FBI...I wouldn't think they would let anyone know that there was an on going investigation.

I would also like to say that Butch Searcy is a fine and decent an American as can be found. I have known him for years, consider him a friend
and a fine craftsman...I believe there may be someone out there that has offered to help the new British Company destroy the American Double gun business in return for free guns and hunts.

If anyone wishes to talk to me about anything I can be reached at Rigby's 5 days a week...

I may be loud, fat and obnoxious but I have about 300 folks who like our products and there must be some reason for that............

Oh ! By the way Steve Helsley does not have one of our guns...has never been beholden to us for any reason and was one of the founders of "The concours of excellence of fine guns " after a long and distinguished career in Law Enforcement......Both his reputation and character are impeccable

Someone had commented about the 30 year old in our Booth who said he could do everything to build a double gun...His Name is Brandon Holquin and he can... with the exception of checkering and engraving..

All my boys were trained by Jerry Swanson who spent his entire career at Purdey's and then worked on Peter Nelsons guns (which were cconsidered the best there was)

Any and everyone is welcome to come see the facility and how we do things..We have absolutely nothing to hide and would appreciate the opportunity to do so...

I find the above comments every bit as deceptive as the article in SCI mag.
In the 1st paragraph you say that you use "Merkle action bodies". What about the top lever, triggers, forend iron, barrels, trigger guard, etc...? Is it not a fact that you start with Merkel shotguns?
2nd paragraph. FBI investigation? You dodged the central question? Did you not tell many many people that you served in the Marines? Are the court transcripts real. The ones that you testify that you were never in the military?
3rd paragraph. I don't see where the London Rigby co. is trying to destroy the American Double gun business. I can see where they might be having an effect on your business.
Mr. Helsley. I know nothing about this guy but, it is honorable for you to stick up for him. After all didn't you supply him with the info. that he needed to write that article in Safari Mag.?
Next paragraph, Do you really mean to tell us that B. Holquin has learned to mill, broach, chisel. and file up action bodies...make and join barrel sets and fit them into the afore mentioned action. Make and fit hammers, sears,triggers, locking bolts, extractors, ejectors, springs, forend irons and latches, etc... or do you mean that he has learned how to sleeve rifle barrels into a shotgun and re-stock it?
Next. "...We have absolutely nothing to hide and would appreciate the opportunity to do so..." I don't think this came out the way you meant it or did it?

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:

quote:

Originally posted by john rigby:
I'd like to inform all interested parties that our bankruptcy proceedings was a chapter 11 and everyone listed as a creditor was paid in full and we were then discharged by the court...further, we never hid the fact that we were useing Merkel action bodies (greener crossbolt) and that was made public years ago in an article by Silvio Calabi in SHOOTING SPORTSMAN in the january issue of 2001. He also explained why under a "Question of strength"

If I was being investigated by the FBI how would anyone know unless they were with the FBI...I wouldn't think they would let anyone know that there was an on going investigation.

I would also like to say that Butch Searcy is a fine and decent an American as can be found. I have known him for years, consider him a friend
and a fine craftsman...I believe there may be someone out there that has offered to help the new British Company destroy the American Double gun business in return for free guns and hunts.

If anyone wishes to talk to me about anything I can be reached at Rigby's 5 days a week...

I may be loud, fat and obnoxious but I have about 300 folks who like our products and there must be some reason for that............

Oh ! By the way Steve Helsley does not have one of our guns...has never been beholden to us for any reason and was one of the founders of "The concours of excellence of fine guns " after a long and distinguished career in Law Enforcement......Both his reputation and character are impeccable

Someone had commented about the 30 year old in our Booth who said he could do everything to build a double gun...His Name is Brandon Holquin and he can... with the exception of checkering and engraving..

All my boys were trained by Jerry Swanson who spent his entire career at Purdey's and then worked on Peter Nelsons guns (which were cconsidered the best there was)

Any and everyone is welcome to come see the facility and how we do things..We have absolutely nothing to hide and would appreciate the opportunity to do so...

I find the above comments every bit as deceptive as the article in SCI mag.
In the 1st paragraph you say that you use "Merkle action bodies". What about the top lever, triggers, forend iron, barrels, trigger guard, etc...? Is it not a fact that you start with Merkel shotguns?
2nd paragraph. FBI investigation? You dodged the central question? Did you not tell many many people that you served in the Marines? Are the court transcripts real. The ones that you testify that you were never in the military?
3rd paragraph. I don't see where the London Rigby co. is trying to destroy the American Double gun business. I can see where they might be having an effect on your business.
Mr. Helsley. I know nothing about this guy but, it is honorable for you to stick up for him. After all didn't you supply him with the info. that he needed to write that article in Safari Mag.?
Next paragraph, Do you really mean to tell us that B. Holquin has learned to mill, broach, chisel. and file up action bodies...make and join barrel sets and fit them into the afore mentioned action. Make and fit hammers, sears,triggers, locking bolts, extractors, ejectors, springs, forend irons and latches, etc... or do you mean that he has learned how to sleeve rifle barrels into a shotgun and re-stock it?
Next. "...We have absolutely nothing to hide and would appreciate the opportunity to do so..." I don't think this came out the way you meant it or did it?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

Tommyhawk:

You have a lot of criticism here. Could you please fill us in on all your experience with handling and shooting the California Rigby? I am not defending California Rigby but it seems to me that before you go running your mouth off you ought to at least fill us all in on your own PERSONAL EXPERIENCE wit the gun.