quote:

Originally posted by goshoot:
Hey guys, check out the article in the Nov/Dec issue of Safari Magazine about Rigby. The author states that California Rigby has initiated litigation against the new English Rigby company. He also goes into great detail about many of the issues debated here about the styling, action used, weight, beavertail forend, etc. used by California Rigby. For instance he says that they purchased 23 actions from different makers (including from Holland&Holland and Purdy) and spent $150,000 having them tested to failure at an aerospace lab. They found the Merkle was the strongest so that is the one they chose to use. They also use a special high graphite self lubricating O6 tool steel for internal parts and aircraft grade chrome silicon for springs. Unless the author is completely dishonest it seems that California Rigby makes a quite fine rifle.

goshoot

maybe an oppinion from somebody that have been to both factorys would weigh a bit more than somebody who knows nothing about us

http://www.americanrifleman.or....aspx?id=1974&cid=25

Mr hopkins and Mr Wieland are both known in the industri as men of honor, i dont know steve other than he may very well be the steve that posted the pictures here on this very tread and then he seems to have a very strong connection to california, but please make up your own mind, we still will let the guns talk for themselfs.

best regards

peter

Well yes...I have always been convinced that a properly balanced rifle that handles like a dream is more important than the caliber...as and when I have had an oportunity to heft and shoot both on a moving target I'll feel qualified to comment...

In the meantime I am in the market for a nice caplock stalking rifle...and the london rigby boys look as though they are getting that right!

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

Originally posted by goshoot:
Hey guys, check out the article in the Nov/Dec issue of Safari Magazine about Rigby. The author states that California Rigby has initiated litigation against the new English Rigby company. He also goes into great detail about many of the issues debated here about the styling, action used, weight, beavertail forend, etc. used by California Rigby. For instance he says that they purchased 23 actions from different makers (including from Holland&Holland and Purdy) and spent $150,000 having them tested to failure at an aerospace lab. They found the Merkle was the strongest so that is the one they chose to use. They also use a special high graphite self lubricating O6 tool steel for internal parts and aircraft grade chrome silicon for springs. Unless the author is completely dishonest it seems that California Rigby makes a quite fine rifle.

goshoot

maybe an oppinion from somebody that have been to both factorys would weigh a bit more than somebody who knows nothing about us

http://www.americanrifleman.or....aspx?id=1974&cid=25

Mr hopkins and Mr Wieland are both known in the industri as men of honor, i dont know steve other than he may very well be the steve that posted the pictures here on this very tread and then he seems to have a very strong connection to california, but please make up your own mind, we still will let the guns talk for themselfs.

best regards

peter

I spoke to him when he returned from his visit with Mark. His words to me were of excitement for the new firm and what he saw there. He did voice his concern on the legality issues pending, but felt Miller had little footing in the end to stop it.

I'm looking forward to viewing the 450 rising bite when it is completed. Peter perhaps you will post some in progress pictures for us to drool over.

sinner
i will as soon as i get a few minutes to do a few outside the shop, it wont be to long now

best

peter

goshoot,

I wish I could take credit for this brilliant analogy, but I can't. I think this sums it up as well as anyone can.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
The point of contention is not the quality or lack thereof of the El Rigbero rifles.

The story goes like this:

There used to be a British firm dedicated to building things like these:




An American bought the NAME of the company, did not think it necessary to retain the tools, didn't bother to consider that maybe the employees' and subcontractors' expertise had some sort of importance, thought that clients and aficionados didn't know their left from their right, moved the operation to a different country with different traditions, different tastes, different ideas; he then bought (East) German bases that he embellished according to the tastes of his place, multiplied the price a few times to make it look luxurious, and tried to sell this:







Now, whoever needs more explanations can go and buy himself whatever he wants, he probably deserves it.

Rigby (the deceased Rigby of the past) stood for beautiful, functional rifles with classic English style. No one has claimed that Cal Rigby doesn't build functional rifles, but their rifles are a shame on the Rigby name in concern to style. As many others have stated Mr. Miller would have been much better served to have made rifles under his own name.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by goshoot:
Unless the author is completely dishonest it seems that California Rigby makes a quite fine rifle.

goshoot:

Did you notice this from earlier in this string? If so, did you grasp the significance?



For anyone conversant with German Proof, specifically Suhl, and reasonally well-up on double guns, this photo is self-explanatory. The proof marks that haven't been REMOVED show Suhl forced proof, October, 1999. See the milled spot on the right barrel now stamped GDM? That's where Suhl marks the bore size. The marks for 20 gauge originally stamped here have been milled off.

This wasn't a Merkel "action". It was a Merkel (a Suhl gunmaker) 20 gauge shotgun. The shotgun barrels have been cut off just in front of the flats there, and .500 rifle barrels sleeved into them. As is common knowledge, Merkel barrels in 1999 were shoe-lump, meaning that the lumps were braized onto the bottoms of the barrels. These are shoe-lump shotgun barrels that have been SLEEVED to convert this shotgun to a double rifle.

British Rigby's had chopper-lump barrels. This is the best, and by far the most expensive, method of making double gun barrels, and are a hallmark of quality. The lumps are integral to the blank and are braized together at the lumps, thus resulting in only 2 pieces. Last I looked, chopper-lumps BLANKS were about 5000 Euro, and then you have to make a pair of barrels from the blanks.

Shoe-lump and Dovetail-lump barrels are another manufacturing technique, both of which involve braizing the lumps to the barrels. Both are quite acceptable, and successful.

The cheapest manufacturing technique is mono-block. The two barrels are inserted into a "bloc" that's machined from one piece of steel.

Sleeving is a REPAIR method only that, I'm sure you're aware, reduces the value of an otherwise nice double by at least one-third. It's a cheap way to return a double with damaged barrels to shooting condition without having to make new barrels at considerable extra expense. Sleeving is ONLY for repair, never as a manufacturing technique...except as you see above.

I've never heard of anyone using sleeving as a MANUFACTURING method, and it's certainly below minimum standard. Can you say "CHEAP"? By definition, this is not "fine". This is a straight shotgun to DR conversion. You can look around the web to see what such conversions are worth. Tarted up and engraved "Rigby" doesn't make them worth a dime more.

The article you referred to is nothing more than advertisement poorly disguised as journalism. Hopkins and Wieland got it right.
--------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Peter,

Can you tell us what method of barrel construction you're using for the new London Rigby's?
-----------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

mark

chopper-lump barrels and dove-tail barrels, as it is hard on the lower grades to make a price break with both sidelock and ejectors and chopperlumps, allthough on the first few of each, we had to, as we were perfecting the dovetail method.

best

peter

400

That is very informative. Thanks. I couldn't find where it was originally posted though.

Is that how ALL current Californian Rigby's are made ?

Or only when they started ?

Peter,

I had assumed such as they were all sidelocks. It seemed natural to me that the only way to make the price fit the grades was as you say. Thanks.

Nigel,

I don't know. Haven't handled a recent example. I'll check the next time I see a more recent one.
---------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I'll stand pat on what I said earlier. London Rigby's are real DR's. The Kalifornia ones...

Cam Hopkins may be slightly crazy, but both he and Terry Wieland can tell a silk purse made of silk from one made from a sow's ear.

I chose the convertible (trying to relive my 22 year old days with an XKE coupe) in lieu of the four door shown, but in February the new 510 horse SSL XJ-R is going to be at the dealer in Boise!! A true Jaguar touring car.

Rich

quote:

I chose the convertible (trying to relive my 22 year old days with an XKE coupe) in lieu of the four door shown, but in February the new 510 horse SSL XJ-R is going to be at the dealer in Boise!! A true Jaguar touring car.

Rich, how are you going to keep your hat on in all that wind?
-------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I just peel the hat off and let the wind blow the half-dozen hairs I have left where it will. I had a very hot twenty-something girl tell me I looked pretty sweet setting behind the wheel one afternoon this summer. I was so busy imagining (not much imagination required in her case) what was under her tube top I... Never mind what I almost did. It would have been expensive in either case. Let's just say I did better with the ladies thirty-five years ago when I had the first one. Remember those days?

Rich

I'll kinda gradually I hope work this around to double gun related..

Regarding the Jag reference, the XJ6 pictured above was among those built after they required those large black rubber bumpers. They also put them on the E Type, like the V12 Model of the early 70s. IMO this ruined the otherwise unbelievable good looks so that for me personally, I lost all interest in them (and started working toward my first Benz). But there was a time when honestly I thought I couldn't go on living another day if I didn't own a Jag..

So, if you wanted to compare a classic double in looks to the Jag I'd go back farther and in looks only you'd probably have a really good analogy. However, if we make that comparison, there's a bit of a problem. Know what it is? Hint..remember the old Jags' mechanical reputation? They used to say it was a great car for someone who liked to walk a lot..in other words it was a bit of a contradiction.

At the same time the thing was so utterly gorgeous it was the only automobile ever selected for display in a museum of art.

So, as just an opinion I think you actually might want to go with a later model or even another car altogether for the analogy. Or maybe a fine Swiss watch perhaps?

Anyway, for the Jag lovers amongst us here're a couple fun links - first turn up your speakers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Mi4c&feature=related. That one has both the "look" and the "sound". And, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anq4wdZc2Ow - brings back some memories, no?

RE: CHOPPER LUMP BARREL PRICES

WE CAN SUPPLY FROM EUROPE CHOPPER LUMP BARREL SETS
FULLY ASSEMBLED....BRAZED TOGETHER,RIBS LAID, EJECTORS PLACED AND FOREARM HOOK INSTALLED FOR ABOUT $3,400. PLUS SHIPPING & DUTY

THEY WOULD REQUIRE FINAL FITTING TO YOUR ACTION

Shack,

point well taken. I have a late model XK-8 convertible.

Rich

Rich, there really is a firearm for which the older classic Jag is a very good analogy, on both knock-out good looks and problematic mechanical aspects...it just doesn't happen to be a double rifle however - http://www.automagpistol.com/images/photo6.jpg. They call it the "aristocrat of big bore handguns". Cheers.

I would like to preface my remarks by saying that I study firearms and read alot about them. I'm also a long time member of SCI.
I find that 'Deceptive' would be a good term to describe the Kalifonia Rigby operation.
Shooting Sportsman has also had articles on their operation. The newest being in the Nov./Dec. issue,Page 18, by John Gregson. Part of which is: The deal that Mr. Miller had to buy Rigbys fell through so now "...through a convoluted process he is now producing Rigby guns by arrangement with a third party investor." This confirms what Hopkins has written.(Previously posted) Mr. Miller does not and has never owned Rigbys. Quoting the SCI article,"In 1997 Roberts sold Rigby to American entrepreneur Geoff Miller." Do you think that the author just makes stuff up or do you think that he writes about what he was told by Mr. Miller? I read somewhere that Mr. Miller had a degree in microbiology or some such. Now, he is an aerospace engineer? I wonder what the criteria is for that? Sort of reminds me of what we now call "Sanitation Engineers". This article in Safari Mag. is full of deception. Let's take the SxS strength test. If you were going to build the Fabbri of rifles "...without regard to man hours or cost...", why would you spend $150,000 testing shotgun actions? Who on this planet has ever thought that a shotgun converted to a rifle was ever going to be the finest rifle produced? Answer, Geoff Miller. So much for those big college degrees. As to Merkles being the strongest? Maybe they are the strongest SHOTGUN. Does anyone really believe that the Merkle shotgun action is stronger than a H&H rifle action? The article states that Mr. Miller buys "actions" from Merkle. Yet, the previously posted pic of the doctored barrel flats proves that he uses shotgun barrels as well.
Things just don't add up when you apply a bit of common sense. As I said at the beginning. Deceptive. Chop up someone elses shotgun, put rifle barrels on it. Put some nice wood on it. Beautiful engraving and a famous name and PRESTO! You have the finest double rifle in all the world! For those of you out there that think that the Kalifornia Rigbys are "Best Quality" double rifles I suggest you check your lips for a big fish hook. Just one man's opinion.

This Rigby Kalifornia story really has me intrigued. If it wouldn’t be so sad it would be funny. Forgive me for putting my 2 cents to this story, but here is how this all appears to me. I have loved fine guns for many years, and it pains me to see how such a wonderful, old company is being butchered without regards for its history. From talking to people, looking first hand at a couple of Ca Rigby’s, and reading a bunch of articles, I have concluded the following:
It seems a sad reflection of the time we live in where writers and journalists, such as Mr. Helsley, don’t follow up with fact checking. It appears Mr. Miller never has had any of his own money invested in the Rigby Ca company. He manages it for a group of investors, and his company, Rouge River Rifles, builds the Rigby Ca. guns. (Is this the same Geoff Miller who used to drive years ago a hay truck in Los Angeles, and who claims to be a Vietnam War hero, but was enlisted under a different name then his own?)
The double rifles are being built on .12 Ga. Merkel shotguns. His guys chop the shotgun barrels off in front of the chamber and sleeve rifle barrels into the rear section and then re-stock it. The .12 ga. markings on the barrel flats are then removed. The bolt rifles appear to be made by Reimer Johannsen and the new and exciting Rigby shotgun looks to me sure like a Rottweil shotgun. The George Bush shotgun kind of looks like an Arrietta, doesn’t it?
Now we read in the SCI magazine that a Merkel shotgun action is stronger then a Purdey or Holland double rifle. Have you ever seen a Merkel next to a Purdey or Holland? Those English real rifle actions are much bigger, have longer flats and are re-enforced. Mr. Helsley writes about this blow up test of 23 guns. I would like to see the results of that. This is the biggest gun experiment conducted since the London gun trials. However, unless we see proof, I doubt it ever happened. Just the cost of a Purdey and a Holland would exceed the claimed $150’000 budget. How about the other 21 guns they supposedly blew up? Maybe Steve from California can grace us with some real info.
Another sad reflection of the times we live in is that politicians run car companies, lawyers are in charge of manufacturing companies, and here we have a guy supposedly from the air plane industry and who is building double rifles. Whatever happened in America to professionals in their field with practical experience who run companies? This is just me, but I believe the reason why the California guys never brought back a classic Rigby is simply because they can’t. Clearly it appears they don’t have the expertise and the knowledge. Otherwise, from a business stand point it makes no sense to me what they are doing. But then again, they seem not to be capable to see the difference between a Merkel and a Holland & Holland. For a good laugh I would love to see their business plan. I wonder if one of the investors ever made a dime from this one.
Good luck to the London guys. I’m glad somebody is paying this old name the respect it deserves.

Have been trying, without joy, to find updates on this situation online. Any news would be appreciated.

Milo.

Shack,

tried one back in 1972. Today I have a Wildey in 45 Win Mag.

Rich

Grenadier,

sort-of looks like that doesn't it...

Rich

quote:

...but I believe the reason why the California guys never brought back a classic Rigby is simply because they can’t. Clearly it appears they don’t have the expertise and the knowledge.

Doubtful. Much more likely that do to so would not be profit maximizing over the pre-determined life span of this company when it was formed. Just a guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I just peel the hat off and let the wind blow the half-dozen hairs I have left where it will. I had a very hot twenty-something girl tell me I looked pretty sweet setting behind the wheel one afternoon this summer. I was so busy imagining (not much imagination required in her case) what was under her tube top I... Never mind what I almost did. It would have been expensive in either case. Let's just say I did better with the ladies thirty-five years ago when I had the first one. Remember those days?

Rich

Rich is halucinating again. We commonly have to get him treatment here.

465H&H

Milo, look for posts by "peterdk".
Peter.

Thanks, Peter.

Jag convertables are for women! Bought my wife one for her 40th birthday

This is the DR forum, if you want a fine auto from across the pond, you need a bespoke auto, kinda like this one:

Jags are cheaper than Aston Martins!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Jags are cheaper than Aston Martins!
Peter.

Dose that make a Jag a cheep car like a cheep gun, AKA Searcy?

465H&H

FMC,

we had a saying, discussing closed cars VS convertibles: "Coupes are for Chickens...".

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
FMC,

we had a saying, discussing closed cars VS contertibles: "Coupes are for Chickens...".

Rich

ROFL!!!!

dunno the difference...did 175 in the AM, 165 in a 360 spider.........ass puckers the same...LOL

Cheap.......both at one time were just Fords...

Cheers, Frank

quote:

Dose that make a Jag a cheep car like a cheep gun, AKA Searcy?

No Sir! A Jag XK8 (or even an XF) is on my bucket list, but that Aston is a beautiful car!

Peter

A buck fifty with the top down is all the adrenaline rush I need. I sold my Muzzy prepped ZX-12R after getting a police radar clocking of 183 last year. If I had AM $$$ I'd just step up another $20K and get a new 450 Italia.

Rich

I.ve seen where threads were hyjacked, but this is the first time I've seen one 'car jacked'. I guess this means there is nothing new on 'Rigby vs. Rigby'.
Peterdk, Do you have any more pics on the progress of the new rising-bite? Will it have disk set strikers?

Car-jacking!

Back to business. I am looking forward to clearing this shotgun to $40,000+ Double Rifle mystery up.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Car-jacking!

Back to business. I am looking forward to clearing this shotgun to $40,000+ Double Rifle mystery up.

Rich

Me too. If I was a client of Miller I'd be asking him some simple questions right now.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I just peel the hat off and let the wind blow the half-dozen hairs I have left where it will. I had a very hot twenty-something girl tell me I looked pretty sweet setting behind the wheel one afternoon this summer. I was so busy imagining (not much imagination required in her case) what was under her tube top I... Never mind what I almost did. It would have been expensive in either case. Let's just say I did better with the ladies thirty-five years ago when I had the first one. Remember those days?

Rich

Rich is halucinating again. We commonly have to get him treatment here.

465H&H

i am curious if the girl's seeing eye dog tried to bite him.

Out of curiosity. IIRC didn't Searcy start by converting shotguns? Did he not advertised this and did not hide the fact. If indeed that is so, what did he do differently? Are all converted shotguns sleaved or are other methods of conversion used? Purely meant as a question and not in any way disparaging towards Searcy.

sorry iam new at this forum ,so i reply about rigby rifles made in california way to after this all started,its a shame that such a name like rigby rifles are made in USA
why?because rigby has tradition,love and reputation for making fine double rifles, i saw couple of photos of new rigby double rifles, they are good as VW JETTA MADE IN MEXICO,same with a guns,britsh produced double rifles well over 150 years and now some people want start what somebody did for generations,simply it wont work,i would like personaly own a rigby double rifle, but not the one from a burger king land

Frank,

yes, but...

He made quite a few, on the Browning Belgian Made B-SS SxS 20 and 12 gauge shotguns. He went to Browning and asked for assistance. They were pleased to share heat treating and proofing information with him, IIRC. He told the world what and how he was doing it.
Kalifornia Rigby has been very secretive about buying used, in many cases German shotguns, grinding off some of the ID marks, etc; and trying to pass them off as bespoke DR actions. They, imho, disingenuous at best. They also are trying to get real Rigby prices for them. It is difficult to understand how Geoff Miller stays in business. Then, there is the Navy SEAL, Navy Cross issue. My personal opinion is that he is a Charlatan, not even up to the level of David Kokesh during his tenure at Dakota Arms.

Rich