quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
....and I repeat:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
When are they expecting said rifles to hit the market? January in time for the shows?

Brett

Brett

they will be out before christmas, regarding the shows we are not sure yet, we talk with our agents about this at the moment.

Best regards

Peter

The first of the 12 bore “B” grade guns has just been finished today. The professional photographer will not be able to take the official photographs until Monday.
The Directors took the decision in grateful acknowledgement of the support shown to John Rigby & Co. Ltd. London, by so many of you here, that we should like to share a sneak preview with you. These are very amateur photographs taken outside our workshops but we hope they reveal to you the essence of what you are all to come to expect from us.
Without all of you, there would be, and will be no best gun market left.

We thank you all.

The Board of Directors

John Rigby & Co, Ltd. and Jno.Rigby & Co.

this is the same action, that we use for our double rifles.

best regards

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
this is the same action, that we use for our double rifles.

best regards

peter

Peter, does the rifle have a third fastener? There doesnt seem to be one on the shotgun, though it isn't needed for that!

Sinner,

No doubt this is a "retro" treatment. I too like the concept, but was holding my breath with the hopes that somebody out there was going to make the real Mckoy...

...A true Bissel action, Chilton locks and all.

Taking a classic and constantly reproducing it is how H&H & Purdey's have managed to make it through the years...

Peter; Take heed my brother!

JW

(Good lookig piece BTW....Needs some Case colors though)

Gentlemen

Sorry for the misunderstanding, it is my fault for not being clear enough.

The R3B is our A-class and Best gun, we cannot build a rising bite for the prices that we ask for our B and C-class.
The B and C-class are traditional sidelocks designs that we found strong enough for the job at hand, they are designed to give us an opportunity to offer a sidelock ejector rifle or shotgun at a good price.
We considered making the rifle with a dolls head extension, but with the new steels that are available to us it was deemed unnecessary.
The carved leaf fences etc. are saved for the A-class and our best guns.

The guns can be supplied with the case hardening colours intact. We elected to brush this demonstration gun for photographic purposes as it would enable everybody to see the engraving better in the photographs.

Thank you for the interest

Best Regards

Peter

Guys:

According to the web site, the "B" Class is the rounded action gun so, yes, it will look different from a rising bite gun.
--------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Scott
The working mechanism, fit, finish, style, size etc will be exactly the same as the vintage Rigby Rising Bite. The only difference will be in the metalergy. More modern steels will be used for strength.

best regards

Peter

I don't have a dog in this fight. No one seems to have seen current Rigby production. Here are photos of two .470s that were recently completed.

Hey guys-

Why fight?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve from California:
I don't have a dog in this fight....

Please, RECANT THIS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT (piece of rhetorical crap) QUESTION

quote:

Originally by Rodney King:

...People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? ...

Consider that this possibly a 'boost' to the California effort!


Cheers
Tinker

That California Rigby appears to be a 12 gauge size action for the .470. Either that or a very narrow action. The engraving looks fine but the action and barrel width seems awkward. Lots of sharp angles and no flow.

I would be interested in seeing a picture from the muzzle end.

That rifle looks nice, and I'm sure that it shoots well and is built out of quality parts.

But the fact that it has "John Rigby" engraved on it does not make it a Rigby, the same as you can't take an Audi and write "Aston Martin" on it.

Craftsmanship depends on so many factors rooted into history and upbringing of people that it is not exportable. A Best English Gun can only be built by Brits, schooled in the trade in England, thinking like Englishmen, and working like Englishmen.

A gun made in Ferlach reflects centuries of knowledge and tradition in so many details that it screams "Ferlach" to anyone who understands craftsmanship. It could not be built by English craftsmen, there would always be a wrong feel about it.

Like on that double in the picture above, without entering into details... Just look at the safety. I screams so loud of CNC machining and soulless finishing that poor ol' John Rigby must be having nightmares in his grave!

Japanese can't make Swiss watches, no matter how hard they try, Germans can't build Italian sports car, and a gun assembled and finished in America from miscellaneous European parts can't ever be an English Best.

That the "New London Rigby" will use outsourced parts does not detract from the fact that it will be designed and finished by people who know what an English Rifle is, because it's part of their culture and traditions.

So, I'm waiting for them to be fully back in business, and will pay them a visit. The last time I went to Rigby was in the early 80's, and I certainly did not look like someone who could afford one of their rifles, but they treated me like a gentleman who loved things of quality.

I still am.

Thanks to Peter and Steve for posting pics. Note on the CA Rigby the blocky safety and the 'smashed
flat' shape of the trigger guard. Also, what is that extra bump of wood sticking down where the trigger guard goes into the stock? Check out the same features on the London gun.
The London guys seem to understand that a double is suppose to be sleek and fast handling.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
Thanks to Peter and Steve for posting pics. Note on the CA Rigby the blocky safety and the 'smashed flat' shape of the trigger guard. Also, what is that extra bump of wood sticking down where the trigger guard goes into the stock? Check out the same features on the London gun.
The London guys seem to understand that a double is suppose to be sleek and fast handling.

THe Above and the post above that are exactly why IMHO
a CA Rigby will never be a John Rigby & Co.

Sorry, but that "CNC" safety and the "smashed flat" shape of the trigger guard"
are just 2 very good examples.

I think Phillip A has made the point absolutely perfectly.

It's not that the US Rigby is a bad gun and I think it's wrong for anyone to suggest that, it's more that an American made double isn't, and never will be an English or Scottish made double.

Every country has its own style and one simply can't get away from that.

As he points out, you can't take an Audi, write Aston Martin on it and make it an Aston....... no matter what's written on the outside, it's still an Audi.

Just curious, has anyone on AR purchased a new English double in the past.

The California Rigby looks pretty nice to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
That rifle looks nice, and I'm sure that it shoots well and is built out of quality parts.

But the fact that it has "John Rigby" engraved on it does not make it a Rigby, the same as you can't take an Audi and write "Aston Martin" on it.

Craftsmanship depends on so many factors rooted into history and upbringing of people that it is not exportable. A Best English Gun can only be built by Brits, schooled in the trade in England, thinking like Englishmen, and working like Englishmen.

A gun made in Ferlach reflects centuries of knowledge and tradition in so many details that it screams "Ferlach" to anyone who understands craftsmanship. It could not be built by English craftsmen, there would always be a wrong feel about it.

Like on that double in the picture above, without entering into details... Just look at the safety. I screams so loud of CNC machining and soulless finishing that poor ol' John Rigby must be having nightmares in his grave!

Japanese can't make Swiss watches, no matter how hard they try, Germans can't build Italian sports car, and a gun assembled and finished in America from miscellaneous European parts can't ever be an English Best.

That the "New London Rigby" will use outsourced parts does not detract from the fact that it will be designed and finished by people who know what an English Rifle is, because it's part of their culture and traditions.

So, I'm waiting for them to be fully back in business , and will pay them a visit. The last time I went to Rigby was in the early 80's, and I certainly did not look like someone who could afford one of their rifles, but they treated me like a gentleman who loved things of quality.

I still am.

I read the above with interest. While the fellows who are going to make the English based "Rigby" are obviously English and most probably have all the experience in the world, I ask these questions:

1. Is the name "Rigby" just being appropriated by them or does the "new" company have any purchased rights to the name, the records, etc. In other words, how does the name "Rigby" relate to anyone or anything involved with the new company or was it just assumed to "adopt" the reputation of the company past?

2. To my understanding, certain principals with large capital had been negotiating with California Rigby to buy the English rights, believing that buying those would be necessary before a start up in London. Are the folks who are going to start English Rigby the same folks or, perhaps, the same craftsmen who were contemplated in the "buy out" and, if so, was "buying" deemed not necessary?

3. I think the very worst thing that could happen to a potential buyer (me ) or the wonderful opportunity for some real experts to make great rifles and the whole of shooting sports... is a fuss about names that ends up in litigation, restraining orders, deposits locked up legal fights, etc. so... How can one be assured that English Rigby isn't going to be sued by California Rigby for some type of infringement of contractual/trade name rights? Do we know for sure that California Rigby has no English rights?

Not trying to make a fuss, but I'm very interested in the guns and expecially the pricing. Ease my fears!

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:

A Best English Gun can only be built by Brits, schooled in the trade in England, thinking like Englishmen, and working like Englishmen.

This is just so much

Dave, you certainly won't be required to buy one to retain your AR membership! If others chose to, for whatever reason, more power to them.

If you really do like the CA Rigbys that much you're in luck. If this pans out as planned you should be able to get a second hand one at a fire sale price shortly.

Bob

Dear Sirs.

Questions have been raised regarding the legal position of our company.
Again because of the support you have shown to us here, we should like to answer your questions.

John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd. is a correctly constituted and legally registered UK company. It has no connection what so ever to any company bearing the same or similar name that may be registered in the US. We do not have the rights to nor have we used any trademarks that may be registered to any US company. You will note that the guns are engraved Jno.Rigby & Co. as they were in the past. This company, is also owned by this board of directors.
John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd’s board of directors has no connection with any persons who may have made a previous attempt to “buy out” the US company of similar name.
The board of Directors is, for the matter of public interest, comprised of gunmakers, gun collectors, professional hunters, engineers, estate managers and others.
The financial structure of the escrow account system ensures that no customer’s monies are ever placed at risk. The escrow accounts are under the control of an escrow management company. They are not monies to which the board of John Rigby and Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd. have access. They are not the property of John Rigby and Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd. and are immune from any legal action.
Escrow gives complete and absolute protection to clients monies, they can only be released upon completion of a contract i.e. delivery of a clients gun. Or failure of one party to complete. That is if the Gunmaker fails to deliver the gun the money will be released to the client. If the client fails to make the final payment the money will be released to the Gunmaker.

We hope that this assuages your concerns.

The Board of Directors.

A prompt reply to my questions and I certainly appreciate it.

Why were my posts removed? Weird.

i thought you did it, yes very weird indeed.

peter

See Guys -- There's no need to fight of fuss about this



Dave Bush can go get that Paso Robles Rigby, and anyone else who wants to go shopping in London for a Rigby can have their wish too!

There's room for all of us, one big happy family





Cheers
Tinker

I just went to have a look at this all on "companies House" web site in the UK.

As far as I can see nobody in the US has ever owned "John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd.

Then I went to the Intellectual property office website. (trade marks)

The only registered trade marks for Mexi'Rigby are the reversed R's and the word "Rigby's"

Interestingly they made an application in June of THIS year to register "John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers)" as a trade mark.
It says on the site that you cannot register proper names i.e. John, or Rigby and also that you cannot register the description of a trade i.e. Gunmaker, potter, weaver etc. So I think it is just some sort of spoiling action. In any event it was after the London Rigby was registered and you cannot register the name of somebody elses company as a trade mark.

If as the English company says it has not used the trademarks, then there is nothing that Mexi'Rigby can do. And as they pointed out have not put "John Rigby & Co." on the guns but DO OWN without contest the name "Jno.Rigby&Co." ( I looked that up as well)

If Inc. had ever made a decent gun then this could not happen. Nobody could do this to Purdey or H+H. The fact that they seem to have the overwhelming support of the shooting community is going to make any action taken by Rigby Inc. look farcicle. If they put a tarted up german gun on the table in court next to one of these new guns they will be laughed out of court. They cannot even realisticaly call theselves Gunmakers, they are only parts assemblers, they dont "Make" anything in the accepted meaning of the word.

As I see it they are simply victims of their own failure and deserve everything that they get. The only way under UK law that they could take action was if somebody had traded on the good name of Rigby Inc. As it does not have a good name, then that cannot be demonstrated. As to damages etc, you cannot damage a company that does not make a profit and continues to go bankrupt. The money behind Inc. would be better to put their investment into London Rigby.

Further to this, I understand that Mexi'Rigby has been bankrupt twice. That alone would have got the directors of that company banned from owning or operating a company for 5 years were it under UK jurisdiction.

I have got the asking price of a C class shotgun and I am going to drop them an e-mail now. These first guns are going to be a piece of history I feel.

I'm no fundi on international law but do know a thing or two about UK company registrations etc and as I understand it, if someone chooses to register a company name that was available then they're perfectly free to do so. They're also perfectly free to produce any item that isn't patented etc.

Whilst I can understand that the US version might be annoyed at the prospect of a new UK based company of similar name but different product, as I see it, they must have chosen to let the registered name in the UK (and possibly esewhere) lapse. In which case, the name then becomes available to anyone that cares to register it. Obviously all this needs to be within the rules of the UK Companies House but if it were not, then the company couldn't have been registered.

Regarding Paul Roberts, whilst he's a nice guy, he sold out to the US company and assuming he's no longer a shareholder, I wouldn't have thought he'd have any rights either way. So I fail to understand quite where he comes into it?

As for the assets, as far as I'm aware, Paul carried on making double rifles under a different name and I'd have thought he must have retained most of those himself....... that's only a guess though.

Anyway, I'm only expressing an opinion. So far, Peter and his colleagues seem to have all their ducks in a row and I'm sure he'll not only be able to address the issue when he feels the time is right, I'm also sure his answers will be equally correct as his previous ones have been.

I agree, and as I said before, if Cal Rigby didn't keep names etc registered,
then it's their own fault. Same with trademarks, even if it's registered in the US, that doesn't apply anywhere else unless registered in the other country.

quote:

I would love to have a brand new collection of properly made rising bites, but will be patiently waiting to watch and see how this all plays out. I do hope your successful.

"That's my stand....Are you in good hands?"

JW

Agree with the above, though am taking a more cautious view due to a lack of understanding of how all of this plays out under UK and US law.

Again, I for one would like to see [1] Rigby and that's in London. Agree totally that Cal Rigby has not done the name any justice, and the pictures above contribute to that fact.

I just would hate to have guns I ordered and paid for tied up in some sort of pissing match between companies is all. Are there really any guarantees that could never happen? I don't think anyone has that answer yet.

quote:

Originally posted by SINNER:
Peter:
A fellow I know that owns an expensive just purchased Cal Rigby gun spoke to Geoff about this recently, he was told they are seeking all legal remedies with this issue and are really fired up about this. He said that Paul Roberts will be standing behind them in court. I think it would be smart that you tidy up whatever issues there are with Cal Rigby prior to selling any guns to the public especially any US clients. Using escrow is a good idea, but it doesn't help with the legal end of things should a court find for Cal Rigby in the end, I would think. As a buyer of fine guns, I would want some more assurances than my money is in escrow.

Will you be attending SCI and the other top international gun shows even though another Rigby exists and will be there? I hope so

Being that you didn't buy the original company's assets as Cal Rigby did, I think they do have a very relevant case to pursue. I know a hefty price was paid for the firms assets and they will certainly want to protect those assets, trademarks, ledgers etc etc..

I would love to have a brand new collection of properly made rising bites, but will be patiently waiting to watch and see how this all plays out. I do hope your successful.

Very wise said..very good advise here

quote:

Originally posted by SINNER:
I just would hate to have guns I ordered and paid for tied up in some sort of pissing match between companies is all. Are there really any guarantees that could never happen? I don't think anyone has that answer yet.

I'd have thought that's been answered by the escrow account answer......

Thank goodness for the 24 hour internet and Skype.

The Directors of John Rigby & Co. ( Gunmakers) Ltd. Have just finished an impromptu virtual board meeting.

We are cognisant of the fact that the few of you who have over the past years purchased a “Rigby” double rifle, made in California, may now feel that your investment has been devalued.

We here, are not desirous of a situation where the shooting and collecting public are harmed by our insistence on a quality hand built product. Quite the opposite.

We would like to extend the following offer to the few owners of these guns.

We will by private treaty, on an individual basis, supply you with a replacement equivalent John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd., gun for a sum representing the net cost of production of the replacement gun.
If you have had bespoke engraving, we will arrange for the duplication of that engraving, again at net cost.

You may retain your John Rigby&Co. Inc. gun and dispose of it in any manner you feel appropriate.

All such transactions will be strictly confidential agreements between such parties and ourselves.

The Board of Directors,
John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd., Jno.Rigby & Co.

I am somewhat surprised that is necessary to register your trade name in each individual country to garner any trademark infringment protection. Will we see a Turkish or Chinese or an honest to goodness Mexican Rigby in the future? Can the California Rigby Company prevent you from importing your guns into the US if they in fact have registered the tradename Rigby under US law?

Gatsby

There are countless thousands of company names that are identical in the US to those in other countries of the world.

You cannot duplicate names within a jurisdiction ie no two names the same in the US or UK or wherever, but outside of the jurisdiction it has no authority.

Just do a search for the name of your local suppliers of goods at UK companies house and I bet you will find a UK name the same.

Trade marks are also only good within a jurisdiction which is why MacDonalds for example has the M marked as TM in a circle in the US and R in a circle in the UK. TM is the trade mark sign US R is the trade mark sign UK.

As you can see from this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon

It happens all the time. The name ESSO could be used outside the US but not inside.
But even then only in certain states.

There is nothing that could be done to prevent a US individual from purchasing anything from another country. You are not slaves and you have the absolute right to trade with whom you please.

quote:

Originally posted by Mintyman:
Gatsby

There are countless thousands of company names that are identical in the US to those in other countries of the world.

You cannot duplicate names within a jurisdiction ie no two names the same in the US or UK or wherever, but outside of the jurisdiction it has no authority.

Just do a search for the name of your local suppliers of goods at UK companies house and I bet you will find a UK name the same.

Trade marks are also only good within a jurisdiction which is why MacDonalds for example has the M marked as TM in a circle in the US and R in a circle in the UK. TM is the trade mark sign US R is the trade mark sign UK.

As you can see from this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon

It happens all the time. The name ESSO could be used outside the US but not inside.
But even then only in certain states.

There is nothing that could be done to prevent a US individual from purchasing anything from another country. You are not slaves and you have the absolute right to trade with whom you please.

From a legal standpoint looking at the timeline, listed company history and Royal warrants on Rigby California website, it does appear they do have rights based in the UK. Wether those rights hold up I have no idea but they are there none the less. This is where I get confused on whom owns what..

Here are the links to them:

http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/...orical_timeline.html

http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/html/history.html

http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/.../royal_warrants.html

I'm rather suprised that Rigby California have the right to display the Royal Warrant.

As one who was born British by birth and English by the grace of God, I'd have thought the Palace might have something to say about that situation.

Not quite cricket don'tchaknow!

Although I suppose they could always say that Rigby Rifles in the UK were awarded the Royal warrants!

Holy Shit!

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
Thank goodness for the 24 hour internet and Skype.

The Directors of John Rigby & Co. ( Gunmakers) Ltd. Have just finished an impromptu virtual board meeting.

We are cognisant of the fact that the few of you who have over the past years purchased a “Rigby” double rifle, made in California, may now feel that your investment has been devalued.

We here, are not desirous of a situation where the shooting and collecting public are harmed by our insistence on a quality hand built product. Quite the opposite.

We would like to extend the following offer to the few owners of these guns.

We will by private treaty, on an individual basis, supply you with a replacement equivalent John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd., gun for a sum representing the net cost of production of the replacement gun.
If you have had bespoke engraving, we will arrange for the duplication of that engraving, again at net cost.

You may retain your John Rigby&Co. Inc. gun and dispose of it in any manner you feel appropriate.

All such transactions will be strictly confidential agreements between such parties and ourselves.

The Board of Directors,
John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd., Jno.Rigby & Co.

Cheers
Tinker

Sinner.

Please refer to my earlier post and do a search at companies house in the UK.

No company by the name John Rigby and Co.(Gunmakers)Ltd. has ever been owned by persons registered outside of the UK.

What I posted about that and the trade marks is fact, whether Mexi'Rigby like them or not.

For Mexi'Rigby to feature those warrents is just a fiction. The moment the company ceased to trade under Mr Roberts in the UK then those warrents ended.

To post the labels as historical artifacts is one thing. To claim that they are in any way attributible to the Royal Family's use of tarted up Merkals is a lie and if they were in the UK, then they would be in court post haste.

This is just another example of the stupendious arrogence that has been displayed over the last decade by Mexi'Rigby. They have treated the shooting public like fools and cannot expect any sympathy from anybody who loves fine firearms.

You will note that the London company makes no such claims for itself.

In the end I think that this will not be settled by courts. It will be settled by all of us. If we buy the new products and support the London company then the past decade will be nothing other than a footnote in history. With their unprecendented offer to replace these travisties of the double rifle trade, with proper guns the few that Mexi'Rigby actually sold will end up in a river somewhere.

There's certainly no mention of them at all on the Royal Warrant Holders Association website.

I deliberately haven't criticised the Rigby Calif company and although I'm no great Royalist, I find it inexcusable for them to appear to claim someone else's Royal Warrants.

Damn Johnny Foreigners!