The point of contention is not the quality or lack thereof of the El Rigbero rifles.

The story goes like this:

There used to be a British firm dedicated to building things like these:




An American bought the NAME of the company, did not think it necessary to retain the tools, didn't bother to consider that maybe the employees' and subcontractors' expertise had some sort of importance, thought that clients and aficionados didn't know their left from their right, moved the operation to a different country with different traditions, different tastes, different ideas; he then bought (East) German bases that he embellished according to the tastes of his place, multiplied the price a few times to make it look luxurious, and tried to sell this:







Now, whoever needs more explanations can go and buy himself whatever he wants, he probably deserves it.

quote:

El Rigbero rifles

Philip that IS a funny post! Where did you get the second picture?
Peter.

I held a Cal Rigby yesterday, wood was nice and had nice case colors, but handled like a tire iron, Phillip A's pic's truly tell the story.

Ed

Perfect analogy Philip, and funny as hell.
----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
I held a Cal Rigby yesterday, wood was nice and had nice case colors, but handled like a tire iron, Phillip A's pic's truly tell the story.

Ed

Ed:

I actually shot a California Rigby but it was a long time ago and I can't really remember much about it. I have been looking at the photographs of the California gun and physically, it looks like a fairly large gun, similar in some ways to my S2 but perhaps the full beavertail forearm simply makes it look larger. Take a look at the photo of the gun on the table at the SCI convention. I thought most of the Merkels I've handled were "slimmer". What was your take on the size of the gun?

P.S. How's our pal Ron doing?

The rise and fall of either of these companies will almost solely depend on the quality of the product they produce.

465H&H

Quite a few on this page have been making a lot of the cultural differences between a CA gun maker and a London gun maker. Here is one to help us explain all these differences.

What is the difference between Heaven and Hell?
In Heaven the French are the cooks, the Italians are the lovers, the English are the policeman and the Germans organize it all.

And in Hell?
Well, in Hell the French are the policeman, the Germans are the lovers, the English are the cooks and the Italians organize it all.

So, you see, moving things around a little can sometimes make a big difference.

Ludo and Phillip,

GREAT POSTS!!

I make no judgment about CA Rigby nor about the London Rigby entity. Heck, I do not know enough about guns! I found this thread after getting the CA Rigby press release. I thought the conversation was rather “heavy” at times and it made me think of a joke I used to hear when I was at Brighton Tech in the late 1970s. This conversation could use a dose of good humor.

quote:

Originally posted by Ludo Wurfbain:
I found this thread after getting the CA Rigby press release.

CA Press release ???

Can someone post it up ?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
I held a Cal Rigby yesterday, wood was nice and had nice case colors, but handled like a tire iron, Phillip A's pic's truly tell the story.

Ed

Ed:

I actually shot a California Rigby but it was a long time ago and I can't really remember much about it. I have been looking at the photographs of the California gun and physically, it looks like a fairly large gun, similar in some ways to my S2 but perhaps the full beavertail forearm simply makes it look larger. Take a look at the photo of the gun on the table at the SCI convention. I thought most of the Merkels I've handled were "slimmer". What was your take on the size of the gun?

P.S. How's our pal Ron doing?

Dave first off Ron is doing good! He got a new truck last I heard and is out running to road trying to make ends meet ,or enough to buy another firearm of some type (if I know him it will be a Blaser or Sauer)

Yes the Rigby I held was at the Cabelas in Buda,

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...categoryId=SEARCH_gl

Had to Spend my 1,000 to get my $250 dollars in "free" stuff-- how does that work . Anyway the issue with the Cal rigby is balance and weight.first off the gun weight is in excess of 13lbs-- hell my 577 was 13lbs 6oz this is just 4oz off that! The biggest issue is balance, the merkels are trim guns with trim actions-- since Cal Rigby uses Merkel actions there is not much weight "between the hands". The barrels were very heavy and it felt like it had 2 recoil reducers in the butt. It balances at the hinge pin but no weight in the middle.

On a truly nice balance gun the weight must taper to the middle. I here people all the time poo-poo that balance is not that important and the 12lbs is 12lbs, but I have in fact held a 11 1/2 lb 450/400 boswell that felt great. The action was larger than it needed to be( I sure a 450/470 class trade action they had) it was heavy and dense, and the barrels had a nice heavy start to them and tapered into 2 nice tubes 26 inch up. The stock had a nice heavy dense pice of wood, the weight was truly all between the hands.

Just some thoughts.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:


CA Press release ???

Can someone post it up ?

I believe Saeed may have posted it here.

Thanks Ed.

If you talk to Ron, tell him I said "hello"

He is having a gathering down at his place this fall. I think there may be some elk shooting. Are you going?

Hey guys,this is Biebs...I have a Rigby 500 NE from Paso Robles. I have it in my lap right now. It weighs 12.2 lbs in 500 NE. That is including 2 recoil reducers in the buttstock, which I would probably remove, as I'm pretty used to very large calibers (460 Wby, 500 A-Square, 458 Lott, etc). The wood, fit, and finish on this rifle are quite exquisite. I bought it with 20-30 shots through it at the range, never hunted, for $19,500...exactly what I posted it for on the AR classifieds. I know some of you are quite knowledgeable about double rifles, and have owned some of the finest. I respect your opinions. Many others on these threads, however, have absolutely no idea about double rifles other than what they read, and then persist in regurgitating back on whatever AR forum they can find that seems to remotely fit. That's fine..I think the differences in contributors make themselves quite apparent after a few entries. Do I think the California Rigby is the equivalent of the original Rigby?...absolutely not. The fact that the action is not manufactured by the company is not an issue for me....even the knowledgeable may be very surprised to find how many Italian components are supplied these days to even the world's finest gunhouses. The manufacturing world has gone global. Hell, If it weren't for Mauser, the great British brands may not have ever offered a bolt magazine rifle.

Anyway, I am moving the Rigby simply because I want a 577, always have, and I guess I'm going to finally take the leap and have one made to order for me...a "Bespoke" double 577. It will have 26" barrels cuz I want them, and will have some screaming wood. If I wasn't going that way, I'd be perfectly happy toting my 12.2 (or 11 lbs by the time I take out the recoil reducers) 500 NE, and delight in it's sub 2" group at 50 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Hey guys,this is Biebs...I have a Rigby 500 NE from Paso Robles. I have it in my lap right now. ....

Anyway, I am moving the Rigby ....

Photos please! Might also help you sell it.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The rise and fall of either of these companies will almost solely depend on the quality of the product they produce.

465H&H

Absolutely. I've got not problem with two "Rigby's" being in the business and if they are both satisfying their customers surely a good thing.

We are all waiting for the product release from "Rigby - London".

Probably more attention to Rigby named products in the last 12 days than the last 12 years. Which should have as earlier mentioned by me be resulting in order book activity, or soon will be.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Hey guys,this is Biebs...I have a Rigby 500 NE from Paso Robles. I have it in my lap right now. ....

Anyway, I am moving the Rigby ....

Photos please! Might also help you sell it.

NitroX:

Biebs has pictures of his .500 in the classifieds. It's a beauty.

Couple of months back..

Rigby in Cali quoted me $79,000 for .577 SLE
$37,900 for .416 bolt action Rifle

Westley Richards quoted $98,000 for .577 SLE

Same rifle at WR would have cost me around $24,000

Cali Rigby Quoted $2900 for 1 Standing 3 folding 50,100,150,200 yards

Westley Richards would do 1 Standing 2 folding for $470

Extra $2500 for one folding leaf!

I am Happy new Rigby is around.

Absolutely. I've got not problem with two "Rigby's" being in the business and if they are both satisfying their customers surely a good thing.

So long as the buying public are made aware that they are not the original company and have only acquired a 'name'

Wharton

Most unfortunately we are having some problems with our web server and are unable to update our web site as quickly as we would like.
To showcase the talents of our gunmakers. These are the work of David Eden. Over 140 years separates some of the guns, sights and accessories in these pictures from the others. .451 Rigby Match rifles and Field models will be available again from us on a very limited basis. POA.

WOW! I've been on the road for a week.....this one just heated right up, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by wharton:
Absolutely. I've got not problem with two "Rigby's" being in the business and if they are both satisfying their customers surely a good thing.

So long as the buying public are made aware that they are not the original company and have only acquired a 'name'

Wharton

Which Company are you referring to that only acquired a name?

It would appear that both companies only acquired the name and nothing more.

Ok I'll bite. What makes the English doubles so good? What is wrong with the Kreighoffs[spelling?] They look good to me and i don't see any gun on earth being worth more than a $100,000. Dan

Dan-

This has been in a couple of other conversations here lately -- the distinction of the "pre-war" brit double rifles.

What we're discussing here is a style of build.
The guys who have had the opportunity to handle and hunt with these nice old rifles will tell you that they have a very special and distinctive handling quality.
What it really comes down to is balance and weight distribution.
The style of build puts about half the mass of the rifle in the third of the rifle that ends up 'between the hands'

Besides that, there's the generations of gunbuilding that tend to 'print' in the work of even the current community of craftsmen.

The handling can to a great extent be accomplished via modern production and even mass-production resulting in rifles that cost a fraction of that hundred grand number.
Good for you!
As it appears, this new London Rigby effort can provide that kind of design/build/style for 10k Pounds Sterling...

quote:

Originally posted by gunbug:
What makes the English doubles so good?
...I don't see any gun on earth being worth more than a $100,000. Dan

Cheers
Tinker

To further justify the question on value in a British best....., in the current issue of Double Gun Journal, the article on Purdey indicates one of their rifles takes approx 90 hrs for the finisher to finish the gun. When the finisher recieves the rifle, his job is to make all the parts work in unison, polish the internals, blue/case color and finish the stock. The internal components are polished to 2000 grit, which takes serious skill.
Considering the cost of shop time at $70 an hr, you are at $6300 just for finishing. A $100k gun will probably have at least 500 hrs of engraving ($35k at shop rate), so we are at over $40k just to finish it once it has been built. When you break down the $100,000 price just into the time involved in making a Best quality it starts to make more sense. It's a ton of money, but considering you have something that is made as well as is humanly possible, that transends just compensating for shop time. Thats my opinion anyway....

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
To further justify the question on value in a British best....., in the current issue of Double Gun Journal, the article on Purdey indicates one of their rifles takes approx 90 hrs for the finisher to finish the gun. When the finisher recieves the rifle, his job is to make all the parts work in unison, polish the internals, blue/case color and finish the stock. The internal components are polished to 2000 grit, which takes serious skill.
Considering the cost of shop time at $70 an hr, you are at $6300 just for finishing. A $100k gun will probably have at least 500 hrs of engraving ($35k at shop rate), so we are at over $40k just to finish it once it has been built. When you break down the $100,000 price just into the time involved in making a Best quality it starts to make more sense. It's a ton of money, but considering you have something that is made as well as is humanly possible, that transends just compensating for shop time. Thats my opinion anyway....

Bailey is right, and the best machinist in the world is not necessarily skilled enough to build even a working double rifle, much less a "BEST" double rifle. Even very well known custom gun builders who draw top dollar for their work, are not necessarily capable of building a double rifle that shoots properly.
It surprises me that considering the cost of skilled labor that even off the shelf double rifles are as cheap as they are.

NOW! Having said that, I do think a large amount of the price on a Purdey, or H&H best grade double rifle is for the name engraved on the finished product. The Purdeys that sells for $200K could still be sold for $50K and make a good profit. Let's be real, as one poster above said, no firearm on Earth is actually worth $200K, even with the time and skill involved. The pride that is involved in owning the $200K double is a "LOOK AT ME" factor, that says, "See what I can afford!"

However the double rifles that sell for $20K-$40K are more justified because of that labor cost, and profit margin. Hell anyone knows that a pick-up truck that sell for $55K is not worth that price when you consider it will be in the shop half the time you own it, and in the wrecking yard in ten or twelve yrs. The $20K double rifle will still be shooting dangerous game 100 yrs down the road! Prorated over that lifespan, that is $200.oo pr year to own it, while the Pick-up is $4583.oo per yr of it's life span of 12 yrs. However nobody bats an eye at spending $20K-to $55K for a top of the line Pick-up or car, when it doesn't take much skill to stand on an assembly line and put the same screw in the same hole, day in and day out.

.....................

Diggory Hadoke has a great book out called Vintage Guns which is mainly about double shotguns. In it he writes about how you can get new barrels made by Bill Blacker who was trained at Holland and Holland and now does contract work for them. If you contract directly with Bill you will pay about half what you would if you took the gun to H& H and they subcontracted to him. However, he will only put the H&H name on the barrels if you contract through H&H. In other words same barrels but you pay double for the H&H name.

Not everyone gets to have a "NAME" like Purdey or H&H. There is a value there when it is time to move that piece to another owner who want's to say he owns a H&H.

We run into this with custom knives as well. Look up a Loveless or Moran.....look at the price....sometimes $15-20k, and they move with regularity. They both started a trend and became iconic with the style they created. Wish I could be so lucky......In the end, the real argument is "is it WORTH that much" ....the answer...if someone pays it, it IS. Otherwise they wouldn't be priced accordingly, and this discussion would never take place.

There is definitely a value in owning a name brand, most especially when reselling. Its just important to know what you are really getting if money is a factor. If you are Bill Gates then who cares about cost. Many of the old "better" London guns were actually made in Birmingham and proofed in London. Same guns you just pay more for the sellers (not the makers location.) All things being equal I would rather have a Purdy or H&H in fact I would even pay extra just for the name. However, I am not Bill Gates so money is a factor and and I can't justify their prices for me.

I know what you mean. I long for a Fabbri to shoot dove with....but when I do actually get one, I would probably drive to the dove fields in my Lamborgini.

That would be one hell of a trip though wouldn't it!!

Better off with a Piotti Monaco....Equally the gun, lower price and made entirely at the Piotti family factory (with the exception of the engraving).

Their Hammerguns are simply the best made today!

And then drive to the dove fields in a MB S-65 AMG!

Now you have a real winning combo! (Though your Fabbri Lambo combo does sound sexier)

Great thread BTW!

Interesting article with some of the history on Miller & Co from the Vintage Guns site:

"Will The Real John Rigby Please Stand Up?

A Historic British gunmaker gets batted back and forth across
the Atlantic.

By Cameron Hopkins - (this was sent to me by a respected US based journalist).

Will The Real John Rigby Ple…
Weatherby Nation Hits Milest…The storied English gunmaker
John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers) Ltd. has been operating out of
Paso Robles, Calif. for 12 years, however, a new John Rigby
& Co (Gunmakers) Ltd. has surfaced in London after the
original corporate entity was abandoned in Great Britain.

We'll refer to the pair as "California Rigby" and "London
Rigby" for the sake of clarity. Only "California Rigby"
claims to be the legitimate John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers) Ltd.
dating to Ireland in 1735. "London Rigby" merely claims to
have filed a corporation under the name John Rigby & Co
(Gunmakers) Ltd. after "California Rigby" neglected to file
a trademark or incorporate the company in England.

This whole affair dates back to 1997 when Neil Gibson of
Texas bought the historic record books, intellectual
property and other rights to the John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers)
Ltd. marque from Paul Roberts of J. Roberts & Sons of
London .

J. Roberts & Sons bought the rights in Rigby in 1984 and
changed its name to John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers) Ltd.
However, in 1997 when Roberts sold the Rigby rights to
Gibson, Roberts abandoned the company name of Rigby and
refilled under its original name of J. Roberts & Sons,
thereby allowing the company name of John Rigby & Co
(Gunmakers) Ltd. to lapse. It ceased to be a corporate
entity in 2002.

"California Rigby" came into being when gunsmith Geoff
Miller of Rogue River Rifleworks in California signed a note
to purchase the Rigby intellectual property assets from
Gibson, however, Miller never paid Gibson.

Gibson subsequently sold the note to Marc Halcon, a longtime
firearms industry figure, who foreclosed on Miller. Rather
than face foreclosure, Miller filed bankruptcy. As a result
of the bankruptcy, a new investor paid off Halcon's note.
Miller continues to make guns under the John Rigby name in
an arrangement with the current note owner.

Meanwhile, up steps Mark Neal of London, an engineer by
profession and an avid shooter by avocation.

Neal launched a project to build a modern version of what is
widely regarded as the finest double rifle action ever made,
the Rigby "rising bite" or Bisel action. Working with
gunsmiths in the trade as well as other professional
engineers, Neal dissected the rising bite action and
rend ered it into a CNC program. His intention is to offer
rising bite rifles and shotguns under the corporate name of
John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers) Ltd., which he has registered as
a company in England.

I checked the British Trademark Registry and indeed no
marque for John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers) Ltd. existed before
June 11, 2009 when Miller belatedly filed an application,
subsequent to Neal's launching of "London Rigby."

Neal explained his position on "London Rigby" in an e-mail
to me, "I should briefly explain who we are as people. We
are a collection of fairly ordinary people, engineers,
gun-makers, shooters and hunters, gamekeepers and others. We
are devoted to the Company that we have formed and it is our
greatest wish that it succeed in bringing Rigby back to
England and placing it again with the greatest names in
gun-making. To this end we have worked tirelessly for more
than a year.

"From the way that the knowledgeable shooting public have
received us, overwhelmingly in the main, we feel that we
have every chance in doing so."

Meanwhile, "California Rigby" issued this press release on
Aug. 7, 2009:
"John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Inc. is the only company that
has the legal right to use the John Rigby trademarks and
logo worldwide. We are advised by our legal counsel in both
the U.K. and in the U.S. that the London-based company's
unauthorized use of our John Rigby name is a clear
infringement of our registered trademark rights and is clear
grounds for a passing-off claim as well. We intend to
initiate legal action forthwith seeking an injunction,
damages and attorney's fees for this willful and egregious
violation of our intellectual property rights."

On the same date (Aug. 7, 2009), Roberts issued the
following statement:
"It has come to my attention that a new entity has formed
under the John Rigby & Co. name and are now attempting to
offer John Rigby guns and rifles under the trade name John
Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Ltd.

"Under the circumstances, I wish it to be known that the new
entity John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Ltd. is in no way
associated with the old firm, its staff or its products.
Equally they have no connection with any guns and rifles
manufactured and sold by J. Rigby & Co in the USA."

This prompted Neal (of "London Rigby") to offer the
following:
"We state for the record, as we have done many times over
the past few days, John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd. has no
connection with a company of a similar name registered in
the United States nor, heaven help us, would we wish to
claim any.

"John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd. has no connection with
any former company bearing that name. Again, we have stated
this categori cally before."

I can see this will be entertaining to some, frustrating to others, and fulfilling to a great many more.

I will definitely be staying tuned!



Cheers
Tinker

Quite frankly the company (Rigby) in its original state is long dead regardless of who calls themselves what. What does matter is what the new companies produce. All the titles, records, names, ect in the world won't make up for a product that is lacking. Time will tell for the London firm regardless of what they are called.......and California maybe this will be a wakeup to what is desired from a working double???

Brett

Hey guys, check out the article in the Nov/Dec issue of Safari Magazine about Rigby. The author states that California Rigby has initiated litigation against the new English Rigby company. He also goes into great detail about many of the issues debated here about the styling, action used, weight, beavertail forend, etc. used by California Rigby. For instance he says that they purchased 23 actions from different makers (including from Holland&Holland and Purdy) and spent $150,000 having them tested to failure at an aerospace lab. They found the Merkle was the strongest so that is the one they chose to use. They also use a special high graphite self lubricating O6 tool steel for internal parts and aircraft grade chrome silicon for springs. Unless the author is completely dishonest it seems that California Rigby makes a quite fine rifle.

goshoot,

"dishonest" is such a harsh evaluation. Sometimes a writer will get carried away re-writing a press release, and the possibility of getting a freebie...
NOT saying that the California Rigby is quality or not, but their track record is a bit spotty; both as regards to the financial shenanigans of the various corporate entities using the name and the quality of the rifles. If you see the link as "Larry, Moe, and Curly get into the DR business" it makes it easier to assess. Add to that the fact that they are actually not making double rifles themselves, just assembling on a purchased action. For what they said they spent figuring out which action to "outsource" they could just have designed their own or gone back to the original Rigby. Most industry people feel the only connection they have to the famous name is that they have spelled "Rigby" properly. If I were putting money down, it WOULD NOT be to Kalifornia, but London. They are as close as Eleanor Rigby to the old company.

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
goshoot,

"dishonest" is such a harsh evaluation. Sometimes a writer will get carried away re-writing a press release, and the possibility of getting a freebie...
NOT saying that the California Rigby is quality or not, but their track record is a bit spotty; both as regards to the financial shenanigans of the various corporate entities using the name and the quality of the rifles. If you see the link as "Larry, Moe, and Curly get into the DR business" it makes it easier to assess. Add to that the fact that they are actually not making double rifles themselves, just assembling on a purchased action. For what they said they spent figuring out which action to "outsource" they could just have designed their own or gone back to the original Rigby. Most industry people feel the only connection they have to the famous name is that they have spelled "Rigby" properly. If I were putting money down, it WOULD NOT be to Kalifornia, but London. They are as close as Eleanor Rigby to the old company.

regards,

Rich

Rich, Did you read the article? If so I wold like to hear your opinion of it. If not your just repeating some of the same stuff I have read on several of the previous eight pages. Some of which seems to be wrong per this author. If don't chose to read it before you comment and your mind is closed so be it.

See, I'd castrate the lot of them in Kalifornia for having destroyed all of those fine actions just to find out that DR's are not designed for high pressure. Friggin' morons with money. Yes, I read the article. It's not quite word for word out of the company promo brochure, but let's just say he didn't have to leave their parking lot to do his research.
They have been a mess and and an insult to the double rifle industry since Day One!


Rich

In my humble opinion, they're the kind of people who stick out their index finger and say "pull my finger" so they can fart at you...

quote:

Originally posted by goshoot:
Hey guys, check out the article in the Nov/Dec issue of Safari Magazine about Rigby. The author states that California Rigby has initiated litigation against the new English Rigby company. He also goes into great detail about many of the issues debated here about the styling, action used, weight, beavertail forend, etc. used by California Rigby. For instance he says that they purchased 23 actions from different makers (including from Holland&Holland and Purdy) and spent $150,000 having them tested to failure at an aerospace lab. They found the Merkle was the strongest so that is the one they chose to use. They also use a special high graphite self lubricating O6 tool steel for internal parts and aircraft grade chrome silicon for springs. Unless the author is completely dishonest it seems that California Rigby makes a quite fine rifle.

Well couldn't they just have asked Holland's and Purdey ?

ie prior to a Certain date, the Double rifle's made by H&H and Purdey were just sidelocks.

Then both of them came out with reinforced or bolstered actions and
they used these for the higher intensity cartridges.

Doesn't that say something ?

Also, look at which DR's come loose or seem to be looser compared to others
- now that comment isn't scientific.

So I agree, no need to blow up a heap of guns to find out which is good.

And no, I haven't read the article.