quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:


According to the records, foreign ownership of the name has never been registered in the UK. Looks like somebody in CA has really stomped on their johnson.
----------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

They stepped on their Johnson's when they bought Rigby and actually thought that they could re brand Rouge River Rifles into Rigby's by simply saying so.

They stomped on them when they built the first rifle for the 1998 SCI Saturday Night Auction. Complete with shotgun action (not Merkel), monblocked barrels (not even Chopper lumped)with a crack so large you could run your thumbnail around it, engraving that a first year student at Liege would have been flunked for and the Rigby name prominently attached.

Despite all the plaudits Boddington heaped on them for quality anyone, who actually knew what a nice rifle should look like, could see through the Charade.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
As far as vaporware, one shotgun does not make a double rifle and don't forget, they have now committed to making doubles at cost for anyone who might own a Rigby made in the USA. Just suppose they have to build 40 doubles at cost. That's quite a committment.

Dave

Are you suggested that Cal Rigby has only managed to make about 3 guns per year over its lifetime? If even that many?

Ta hell with all the Rigby labels.. English, Cali and otherwise... Get a Chapuis and go thump some big critters!





You guys have certainly been entertaining, to say the least..

Relax and enjoy the privlages of owning a DR.. REGARDLESS of who made the damned thing!

Just trying' to liven it up for you guys.. Seems to be getting a tad bit stale with the beating of the same dead horse.. Thump away, gents.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
Just trying' to liven it up for you guys.. Seems to be getting a tad bit stale with the beating of the same dead horse.. Thump away, gents.

I agree.

However this post and these shotguns are what the thread is about. I want one.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
JPK,

I agree a lot of rulings can be enforced overseas but from what I know of UK company registration law (and I have a fair bit of experience of it) I think you'll find that the new UK based company have the matter sewed up completely.

I appreciate they might not be able to have a US based agent but I see no reason why a US citizen can't buy and import them privately......Land of the Free and all that!

I'd also question that the US is a particularly significant market for bespoke English doubles. The Americans might have the money but many probably don't have the inclination.

goshoot

Only if Toyota had allowed their company registration to lapse.

Shakari,

"Doing business in the US" is a very broad term defined so broadly by the US Supreme Court. {If I recall my law school reading correctly, see Ashahi Heavy Metals or Ashahi Heavy Industry, or something close - A Korean company hailed into US court, subject to US jurisdiction for selling goods outside of the US which ended up in the US through no action of the company.}

I would venture that a significant majority of bespoke English rifles, probably shotguns as well, are ordered by US customers. While many US hunters and shooters don't even know what a bespoke gun or rifle is, a small fraction of a huge number = a significant market.

Just as an example, I have been told - how accurately I do not know - that G&H sells more Purdey shotguns from their two stores in Connecticutt and New Jersey than Purdey sells from London and Paris. The Connecticutt and New Jersey stores are less than an hour drive time apart, on opposite sides of New York City.

JPK

quote:

But my basic fairness make me feel that if Geoff Miller bought the name and is working to bring back the brand others should not be allowed to rip off his property.

Here is the gist of the problem Miller seems to have created for himself:

He never tried to bring back Rigby, he only sought to capitalize on the famous name and the good to great rifles they sold in their day. The rifles he sells do not in any way represent what Rigby was and do not in any way contribute to or revive the Rigby legacy.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
They stepped on their Johnson's when they bought Rigby and actually thought that they could re brand Rouge River Rifles into Rigby's by simply saying so.

They stomped on them when they built the first rifle for the 1998 SCI Saturday Night Auction. Complete with shotgun action (not Merkel), monblocked barrels (not even Chopper lumped)with a crack so large you could run your thumbnail around it, engraving that a first year student at Liege would have been flunked for and the Rigby name prominently attached.

Despite all the plaudits Boddington heaped on them for quality anyone, who actually knew what a nice rifle should look like, could see through the Charade.

Yep. I think that just about covers it. I didn't get to see that rifle, but I sure heard about it.
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Still -

In any case, the California effort isn't necessarily in any sort of 'hot water'

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Here is the gist of the problem Miller seems to have created for himself:

He never tried to bring back Rigby, he only sought to capitalize on the famous name and the good to great rifles they sold in their day. The rifles he sells do not in any way represent what Rigby was and do not in any way contribute to or revive the Rigby legacy.

JPK

After all, no-one seems to be pressing them to stop what they're doing!

What's stopping the Paso Robles company from keeping the 'old mill' running and continuing the production of guns and rifles just as they have been doing for all these years..?




Someone's bound to want their product at the listed price point, right..?



Cheers
Tinker

I've read on another forum that "El-Rigbero" sold the grand total of 3 guns outside the US.

If this information is correct, that's one gun every 4 years of operation...

Again if it's correct, it tells you what the rest of the world thinks of a company trying to use someone's good name to sell products that are NOT in any way those that made the reputation of the house.

If Miller had produced his guns the way he is, priced them realistically, and called them "Miller & Co." or whatever, by now he'd probably have a following as an American double gun producer. He may even be in the black and not in the red. And real gun aficionados wouldn't hold him a grudge, and with his money he may perhaps buy a London made Rigby and be happy about it...

The whole story is about doing the right thing.

Peter,

Pearls before swine!!! Very nice looking rifle. If you can pull off said quality at said price I will give your rifles a good look and comparison to Heym before pulling the trigger on my first double.

Brett

JPK,

I take your point but I wasn't referring to doing business in the US, I was referring to US court decisions on matters such as this being unenforceable elsewhere in the world.

Either way, I have no doubt at all that the new UK company have already taken appropriate advice on what they can and cannot do....... and also what effect that would have on sales etc and knowing who's involved, I have no doubt they'll have made the correct decisions and that they'll make a helluva good product.

My guess is they'll be able to ship to US buyers but not have a US agent and that there's enough space in the world market for their product........ but that's just idle speculation and it really doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong.

As has been repeatedly stated by many posters, time will tell on both legalities of the issue and quality of the product and in the meantime, I wish the new company every success and I wait with baited breath to see the first round action double in the flesh.

I should also say that I don't know enough about the Cal product, company or directors to bear any ill will against them but I do reckon it's their own fault that they allowed the situation to occur in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Peter,

Pearls before swine!!! Very nice looking rifle. If you can pull off said quality at said price I will give your rifles a good look and comparison to Heym before pulling the trigger on my first double.

Brett

That's a B class shotgun mate.


I think you'll agree that for just under ten thousand pounds it quite special.

I can't wait to get my hands on one.

And now I know when.

Expect a report on Friday chaps

quote:

Originally posted by Steve from California:
I don't have a dog in this fight. No one seems to have seen current Rigby production. Here are photos of two .470s that were recently completed.

Gator, you could indeed be right about the history of all this. Maybe Geoff did not produce a quality product at the outset but these pictures from Steve from California seem to suggest he has hit the mark now. I think these are really nice looking guns.

I think that you are correct in your assessment that Geoff didn't really have a clear understanding of the history and tradition of the double rifle market when he bought the company. I don't think the failing was in using Merkel actions. I think it was in moving the company to the USA and in not keeping true to the "look" of the Rigby rifle.

Steve "Shakari" Robinson, thank you for the lively debate. You are, as always, a gentlemen.

In this day and age I reckon it behooves everybody on this forum to get past these little nuances and support anybody with good intentions attempting to propegate the gun trade.

Remember: The "antis" are out there trying to destroy our way of life....Let's not help them by destroying ourselves from within our own circle.

Think about it!

JW

Dave,

Look at the wood to metal fit of that rifle.

Then go look at the wood to metal fit of the less expensive - as a rifle - product of the English company.

Different leagues.

JPK

Just for giggles I have put the two guns side by side. Remember the London Rigby is a shotgun and the California Rigby is a .470 Rifle.

Don't forget while looking at the photos that the Clifornia Rigby is their top of the line, while the London Rigby is their No3 grade product!

JPK

JPK-


That's a B-Grade of A-B-C isn't it?
I'm interested to see the bargain-basement C-Grade gun.
Very much looking forward to hunting with one of the slick little ejector rifles.

Still thinking a .303 set up for 215s would be sweet - or perhaps a 20/577!



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
JPK-


That's a B-Grade of A-B-C isn't it?
I'm interested to see the bargain-basement C-Grade gun.
Very much looking forward to hunting with one of the slick little ejector rifles.

Still thinking a .303 set up for 215s would be sweet - or perhaps a 20/577!



Cheers
Tinker

The "best" grade sits above the A,B,C Tinker.

I quite like the idea of .375 flanged for the boar.

Regards,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Don't forget while looking at the photos that the Clifornia Rigby is their top of the line, while the London Rigby is their No3 grade product!

JPK

Do you have to make it any worse that it already is

[/QUOTE]Do you have to make it any worse that it already is [/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
a few more pictures.





best regards

Peter A. Nerving
(gunmaker)
John Rigby & Co.
(gunmakers) Ltd.
London

Peter if I may ask, what gauge is it and what do they run as shown?

465h&H

That is a 12 gauge and the price is as shown £ 9999.00

best regards

peter

Peter,

Will you be making any small bore shotguns?

I know, this is the DR page, but what the heck!

JW

jeff

Yes, we deliver them in the following gauges 20, 28, 410 as well.

best regards

peter

See the following post by Saeed, from Paul Roberts on this topic. The original post is on the African Hunting board.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/6081088411

Interesting turn of events.

JPK

JPK,

I have edited your post to add the text here.

7 August 2009



Dear Sir



It has come to my attention that a new entity has formed under the John Rigby & Co. name and are now attempting to offer John Rigby guns and rifles under the trade name John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Ltd.



As the former chairman of J. Rigby and Co. and the former holder of the Rigby Royal Warrant, I wish to disassociate myself entirely from this new venture and make it clear that it has no connection with the old firm.



For the record, I was the majority shareholder of J. Rigby and Co. from 1984 until 1997, when the intellectual property rights, name and goodwill associated therewith were sold and assigned to John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Inc., a Californian corporation.



Having such a long standing interest in the firm, I was retained by the U.S. Company as both a UK agent and supplier. We have since continued to make J. Rigby & Co. rifles and shotguns in England using craftsmen long associated with the Rigby name.



Under the circumstances, I wish it to be known that the new entity John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Ltd. is in no way associated with the old firm, its staff or its products. Equally they have no connection with any guns and rifles manufactured and sold by J. Rigby & Co in the USA.



Sincerely

PAUL ROBERTS

J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd



J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd

22 Wyvil Road

LONDON SW8 2TG



PH: 0207 622 1131

FX: 0207 627 4442

www.accuratereloading.com

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
That is a 12 gauge and the price is as shown £ 9999.00

best regards

peter

Very good prize.

Will all actionparts be handfitted (mirror polished) as the last finish, as well as the barrels to breech by smoking with the traditional kerosine lamp, so the gunsmith can polish for perfect "on face"??

sincerely...J

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
See the following post by Saeed, from Paul Roberts on this topic. The original post is on the African Hunting board.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/6081088411

Interesting turn of events.

JPK

Interesting !

I like this quote "We have since continued to make J. Rigby & Co. rifles and
shotguns in England using craftsmen long associated with the Rigby name."

Has anyone seen one ?


That quote also goes against what someone else posted here.

quote:

Dear Sir



It has come to my attention that a new entity has formed under the John Rigby & Co. name and are now attempting to offer John Rigby guns and rifles under the trade name John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Ltd.



As the former chairman of J. Rigby and Co. and the former holder of the Rigby Royal Warrant, I wish to disassociate myself entirely from this new venture and make it clear that it has no connection with the old firm.



For the record, I was the majority shareholder of J. Rigby and Co. from 1984 until 1997, when the intellectual property rights, name and goodwill associated therewith were sold and assigned to John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Inc., a Californian corporation.



Having such a long standing interest in the firm, I was retained by the U.S. Company as both a UK agent and supplier. We have since continued to make J. Rigby & Co. rifles and shotguns in England using craftsmen long associated with the Rigby name.



Under the circumstances, I wish it to be known that the new entity John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Ltd. is in no way associated with the old firm, its staff or its products. Equally they have no connection with any guns and rifles manufactured and sold by J. Rigby & Co in the USA.



Sincerely

PAUL ROBERTS

J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd



J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd

22 Wyvil Road

LONDON SW8 2TG



PH: 0207 622 1131

FX: 0207 627 4442

The Board of Directors
John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd
Jno.Rigby& Co.

Dear Mr Roberts

Thank you for confirming what we have said all along.

We state for the record as we have done many times over the past few days, John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd, has no connection with a company of a similar name registered in the United States, nor heaven help us, would we wish to claim any.
John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd, has no connection with any former company bearing that name. That was operated by your good self. Again we have stated this categorically before.
Thank you also, for confirming by omission, that John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd has not traded on the intellectual property rights, name and goodwill of John Rigby & Co. Inc. Had we done so doubtless you would have taken this opportunity to say so. It is nice to have that question answered for the gun buying public.
If you wish to claim ownership of the standard of work featured on the recent John Rigby & Co. Inc./Merkel Guns, then frankly I must express my extreme surprise. However if you wish that, to be included as a footnote to your long and distinguished career in the English gun trade, so be it.

Yours Sincerly

John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd
Jno.Rigby& Co.

Clarity is good!


On Paso Robles Rigby rifles built in the UK -- my sense is that it would be perfectly clear.
Look at the proofs!
Last I heard, London proof marks were only available at the London Proof House!



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Clarity is good!

On Paso Robles Rigby rifles built in the UK -- my sense is that it would be perfectly clear.
Look at the proofs!
Last I heard, London proof marks were only available at the London Proof House!

Cheers
Tinker

Very good point.

Does anybody have one of the "USA" Rigbys?

If so does it have any proof marks.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Does anybody have one of the "USA" Rigbys?

If so does it have any proof marks.

Biebs,

has one in the for sale section, ask him.

Ed

A double rifle without proof marks...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Does anybody have one of the "USA" Rigbys?

If so does it have any proof marks.

It's like a peek up Barbie's skirt




What's the point!?






Cheers
Tinker

Here's a Cali Rigby courtesy of Cabelas,

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...sp?hierarchyId=10473

Don't see any London marks. I have a hard time seeing Paul Roberts doing anything on these double rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Just for giggles I have put the two guns side by side. Remember the London Rigby is a shotgun and the California Rigby is a .470 Rifle.

I know which one I would have a serious closer look at with interest, and which one would be left on the table.

That Iron Chicken proof is German, voluntary proof.
I'm guessing the 10KK to be October, year 2000
The fish and sickle within sheild is East German -- Suhl.






Cheers
Tinker

13lbs 2oz. OUCH, that rifle hurts just looking at it.

But it is better looking than the ornate side plated version, and better looking than a Merkel. Still, no getting over that weight!

JPK