Let me echo every word DoubleDon wrote - you guys are doing a hell of a great job.

Count me in on the "Buy and Try" if the opportunity presents itself in the next few months.

Don & Paul

Thanks! Listen up, do you two shoot any common caliber, 458 or .474?

Paul, I see 450 NE on the Signature.

What I am after is have a small run done in common caliber to get to you guys, that we already have 100% good to go. .585 and .620 requires a bit of work yet.

Michael

I shoot a .450NE.

at least for now...

One thing I neglected to mention is the extremely high readings on the cast bullets we tested! This some of you might want to look at carefully! Both Sam and I was astounded at this. Something neither of us would have ever thought, and both expected it to be very low, 12000-15000, now the cast is the highest barrel strain we have tested. At first we considered it was possible the gas check had done this. We loaded some cast without a gas check and they proved to be just as high. Quite a surprise, and personally I would have never thought we would get those results.

Michael

Hey Nemo

I suppose you do! Good, It would not be an issue to run some new bullets in .458 as this is pretty well set for NonCon and Solids. The new Nitro Bullet will have slightly wider spacing between bands. My current 450 gr and 420 gr would work fine actually as well. But I think you guys want a 480 gr for that--in the solid anyway, NonCon would be around 440 or so.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Don & Paul

Thanks! Listen up, do you two shoot any common caliber, 458 or .474?

Paul, I see 450 NE on the Signature.

What I am after is have a small run done in common caliber to get to you guys, that we already have 100% good to go. .585 and .620 requires a bit of work yet.

Michael

Unfortunately for the test but fortunately for my "Elephant hunt coffers" that particular double appears to be beholden to another per an agreement earlier this evening.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
One thing I neglected to mention is the extremely high readings on the cast bullets we tested! This some of you might want to look at carefully! Both Sam and I was astounded at this. Something neither of us would have ever thought, and both expected it to be very low, 12000-15000, now the cast is the highest barrel strain we have tested. At first we considered it was possible the gas check had done this. We loaded some cast without a gas check and they proved to be just as high. Quite a surprise, and personally I would have never thought we would get those results.

Michael

I'll put my 2 cents in on this and let anyone jump in and correct me.
I think that the reason barrel strain was higher with cast bullets is do to orbutration of the bullet. I never thought it would make this kind of difference but it sure seems that way. The gas check bullets we fired first were hard cast heat treated wheel weight metal. The non checked bullet was some pure lead bullets I had given Michael to slug his 470 Crapsticks with. You can see how the pure lead slug gave the highest pressures. We all know that a lot of old black powder guns used undersized bullets of pure lead that bump up to size on firing. This bumping up is building more pressure in the barrel it seems. I know when a drove those pure lead bullets into Michael's Crapsticks that they got harder and harder to drive out because they were getting tighter in the bore. All of this testing has really made me think differently about a lot of things that I thought I knew. Learn something new everytime.

Thanks to everyone for their support and thanks for what Michael and I are doing.

Sam

As per 465HH request a little test with the load he uses 110/H-4831 SC. My take on this is that it appears to be a very consistent load. I love those smooth curves, and when the numbers are this close on the PT that is an excellent indicator.



465HH, will be happy to send you a pdf of this for your files, just email me.


Michael

DACRON VS FOAM


The more I work with the PT the more I learn, and the better I like this tool. It shows us things that no case study can come close too, although I like and have developed entire cartridges doing nothing but case study and measurements, the PT just either confirms or allows one to go that much deeper into the study. While a chronograph or several are essential tools, still that does not tell the entire story either, it helps confirm other data of course, but it can't tell you a lot about what is going on inside the load and inside the barrel! No tool is perfect, but by combining assets you can draw some damn good conclusions.

If someone had told me that there could be major differences between using different fillers, I would have told you that was crap, make so little difference as to not matter! Opppps! Wrong! Fortunately for me personally I don't mess with fillers in my cartridges, they are already filled to the top with powder--HEH HEH! But if I did or if I ever do use a filler--it will be foam! Here is why






Now this is the second test with Dacron vs Foam. The other was with RL 15 and it showed the exact same results as this test. Higher pressures and inconsistency with Dacron---excellent consistency and lower pressures with foam! Go figure!

The wonderful things we can learn if we only "Endeavor to Persevere"

Michael

Great news.

Makes the "Backer rod" I purchase at Lowe's (and then cut to length) even more attractive.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Let me echo every word DoubleDon wrote - you guys are doing a hell of a great job.

Count me in on the "Buy and Try" if the opportunity presents itself in the next few months.

+1

I am amazed at your diligence and passion. I thank you for the work.

Please put me down for a few of the .470 bullets on the buy and try.

Thanks again mike,

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Great news.

Makes the "Backer rod" I purchase at Lowe's (and then cut to length) even more attractive.

Don,

Thats right. In this test I used backer rod and in the earlier test used the Kynoch foam so both types work great. I'm starting to wonder if the problems caused in doubles from pressure spikes and hard bullets is not caused by DACRON type fillers. From what we have found it causes crazy pressure differences. I don't think I will use it again except to test.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Great news.

Makes the "Backer rod" I purchase at Lowe's (and then cut to length) even more attractive.

Don,

I'm starting to wonder if the problems caused in doubles from pressure spikes and hard bullets is not caused by DACRON type fillers. From what we have found it causes crazy pressure differences. I don't think I will use it again except to test.

Sam

Sam and Don

450NE and I were talking about just that very thing this morning! If some of the methods like Dacron might have caused a lot of issues in the past, and something else being blamed for it?

M

Sam

Couple of things--You Know me, I am always ready to make some damned bullets! What do you think about getting Dan to make a run of the New "Nitro Express" bullets, with your bands, in .474 and .458, #13 solids and NonCons in brass????

Do you feel comfortable enough with barrel strains to make the move on that? Personally I would like to test barrel strains just one more time to triple confirm I guess, but honestly I feel comfortable enough to start a small production run on these two calibers. I am ready to go, if you have the bands where you want and I will put an order in TODAY!!!!!!!

M

I guess our next test will have to be different types of fillers. Including some of the old corn meal,cream of wheat,toilet paper and so on. Crap I thought I was done shooting that 470 for a while. My shoulder is starting to show the effects of 60 to 80 rounds a day of shooting. Going to have to build a machine rest it we continue to test.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I guess our next test will have to be different types of fillers. Including some of the old corn meal,cream of wheat,toilet paper and so on. Crap I thought I was done shooting that 470 for a while. My shoulder is starting to show the effects of 60 to 80 rounds a day of shooting. Going to have to build a machine rest it we continue to test.

Sam

I got plenty of Corn Meal--bought up 10 lbs the other day to form cases with. It makes a damned mess on the range however!

M

Michael,

Go ahead and make the order on the new band style. I am very sure Dan will make them right.

Sam

Sam

Yes, I think we are good to go. Of course on the .474s start the #13 solid out at 500 grs--NonCon will fall in about 460 or so.

What about the 458s----480 gr #13 solid followed by NonCon at 440 or so????? Should we go to 480 for the Nitro bullet?

M

I just posted the terminals of the various T'Rex tests that Sam and I conducted on the terminal thread upstairs. However, I am going to post it here as well.

As some of you may not have crossed over from one forum to the next, as I see happens, let me explain just a bit about this so called T'Rex test I started doing several months ago.

I use two concrete, or cinder blocks if you are familiar with those. I place the first block at 5 inches inside the wet print test medium. Between the #1 Block and the #2 block is 15 inches of wet print test medium. The blocks are 1.25 inches wide.

Now I am not trying to simulate anything, I started doing this as a way to test construction of the bullets, the wet print test medium I use is excellent for testing straight line penetration of solids, excellent for testing expanding bullets or NonCon bullets, but really is not as hard on bullet construction as I would like for it to be. So I come up with the "T'Rex" test to give the bullet one more hard test to pass before taking it to the field. Of course there have been many bullets in the past I have gone to the field without the "T"REx" test, but not these days.

I figure if a solid can hit block #1 and continue to hit and penetrate block #2 dead straight, then it passes the test with flying colors. If not, if a solid cannot get to the second block, then I am not so trusting of that bullet, but that is just me! I want to hit that second block dead straight and penetrate it--do that, it's got to be pretty good!

Here is a sample of the blocks and a T'Rex test.






And now the terminals on the ones we tested this week.









MY FAVORITE--HEH HEH




Normally I reserve the T'Rex for solids, but we put a Woodleigh Soft and the CEB BBW #13 NonCon through it the other day.






And last but not least the normal test with the 470 Nitro, 470 gr CEB BBW #13 Hollow Point.




Michael and Sam!

I placed an order yesterday for a new run of the first "Nitro Express" designated bullets.

For 450 NE I ordered a 480 gr CEB BBW #13 Solid and NonCon HP in .457 caliber

For 470 NE I ordered 500 gr CEB BBW #13 Solid and NonCon HP in .474 caliber

These will have the very slightly wider spaces between the top three bands, and they will be brass.

Not sure on delivery, especially right now this close to Christmas?

FYI

Michael

I did get some of the information that we discuss here on my website, along with some new downloadable pdf documents if you are interested in those.

I added our new information to the Additional Research page, Barrel Strain and Double rifles

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Double-Rifles.html


Also added the Dacron vs Foam, although it is less than a complete study, it's there as well, and will be added to as we work with this.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...0-Nitro-Fillers.html


Just FYI

Michael

doc M

i forgot to ask you and sam, are you looking into a .410" either a 350 grains or a 400 grains no. 13

i think my 450/400's would love a good bullet for this, it can do no worse than a woody and they are bloddy good in this caliber.

best

peter

Peter, Glad to see you back! Yes .410 400 grain are being made soon. Both solid and non con. Got to test in my 450-400. We are trying not to forget anyone.

Sam

hi sam

yes work is getting the better of me, michael just told me that the 12 bores are heading for danish shores, and i have a t-rex test thought out for it, now we will see if there wil be a new ele toy in town for us all to play with

the test will be like the t-rex test but with wet hay bales instead of paper if it still breaks the second brick wall, it will be good to go.

now i only need an ele to shoot as well, but that is something i have to work on as well.

merry christmas to you all

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
doc M

i forgot to ask you and sam, are you looking into a .410" either a 350 grains or a 400 grains no. 13

i think my 450/400's would love a good bullet for this, it can do no worse than a woody and they are bloddy good in this caliber.

best

peter

Peter, and ALL Concerned

Once I get this first run of .457s for the 450 NE and the .474s for the 470 NE completed and on hand, then tested for barrel strains and other things, the line up for NE listed below;

Nitro Express Bullets:
.410 400gr
.410 370gr NonCon
.457 480gr On order for Michael now along with 450gr NonCon’s.
.474 500gr On order for Michael now along with 460gr NonCon’s.
.510 570gr
.510 530gr NonCon
.584 750gr
.584 700gr NonCon
.620 900gr
.620 850gr NonCon


Up to .510 caliber everything is 100% good to go. Solids in both .584 and .620 are 100%, no concerns with me at all. What I am not 100% sure of is the NonCons in .584 and .620--That will be one really big HP in diameter!

Now all of the Nitro Express bullets can be shot in the bolt guns just as well, and not much difference between the two at all except for a tiny bit of band spacing at top.


Standard Big Bore Bullets:
.416 350gr Solid
.416 325gr NonCon
.416 400gr Solid
.416 370gr NonCon
.423 400gr
.423 370gr NonCon
.423 300gr solid but no NonCon. The NonCon ????
.458 450gr Solid
.458 425gr NonCon
.458 500gr Solid
.458 460gr NonCon
.505 600gr
.505 560gr NonCon
.510 535gr (we have this bullet in this weight in a NonCon)
.510 495gr NonCon


Added to the above list of course are my .500 caliber bullets. Once this gets finalized and bullets up and running, then Sam and I are working on a "Lion" bullet! Which of course is good for lot's of other critters as well! And some other "specialty" bullets in the back of our minds as well.

And of course everything is susceptible to change depending on further test evaluations as we move forward! Two weeks ago we were copper, now we are brass unless we learn something with new barrel strain or pressure tests? So this is tentative right now.

Michael

One other thing to mention too, if you guys don't like what Sam and I consider standard, well you can contact Dan direct and get a special run done in anything you want--there are no limitations here. If you prefer copper as opposed to brass, then get a copper run done for yourself, that is not an issue at all and Dan will be happy to work with you.

You Can Have It YOUR WAY!

But, I won't let you change the nose profile or the size of the meplat for the solids! That's my way or the highway. Do that and one might compromise performance! End of Story!




Michael

HEY

where is the 560 grains and the 650 grains .584"

remember the HB bullets, still a lot of fun waiting with those.

peter

Peter

Yep, not forgot, I have a fellow that wants a special run of .584s with 650 #13 solid and following NonCon.

Hollow Bases are still running around--however will get standards sorted out first, hollow base being a specialty bullet, and I will go to work on that as well when other things are standardized.

Right now I have a run of 460 HBs that Capoward and I did for the .500 caliber to begin with, we will test, retest, Sam will probably take some and do some work with them as well.

I also have a big run of .500s I did with wide spaced bands to experiment with hollow bases. We think we can make some good work of these, depending on the shape of the hollow base and depth.

Still miles to go before we sleep on many things.

But getting there a step at a time.

Michael

Michael & Sam,

This is definitely a winning combination for the 470 NE…plus any other .474/.475 caliber rifle. The 470gr CEB BBW #13 HP Copper Solid did very well in the T-Rex test! Congratulations!! I wonder if brass would drive even deeper in the T-Rex Test?

It will be interesting to see the new results for the 460gr .500 CEB BBW #13 HB Brass Solids. I do believe that once the HB dimensions to bullet caliber are settled upon that it’ll make the perfect companion solid for the NonCon Brass HP.

Jim

The brass one did better than the copper, but that is common across the board in the T'Rex test.

I did some PTs today with the 460 HP/HB in the 50 B&M.

M

I think I missed it somewhere but what is the noncon? I would assume non-conventional but which design is it? Hollow point with petals? Also when do you expect to have pricing together on the Nitro Express Bullets?
Thanks,
Mac

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I think I missed it somewhere but what is the noncon? I would assume non-conventional but which design is it? Hollow point with petals? ….
Thanks,
Mac

Mac,

The NonCon bullets are pictured on the left:

The petals shear off after impact causing additional damage during penetration as shown by this test:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

The brass one did better than the copper, but that is common across the board in the T'Rex test.

I did some PTs today with the 460 HP/HB in the 50 B&M.

M

I can hardly wait for the written report.

I am working on the report, and it's not much, but powder does make a difference.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
.584 750gr
.584 700gr NonCon
.620 900gr
.620 850gr NonCon


Solids in both .584 and .620 are 100%, no concerns with me at all. What I am not 100% sure of is the NonCons in .584 and .620--That will be one really big HP in diameter!

Michael

As far as the HPs, the darn cavity will be so big that passing birds might get sucked in

Might be able to stick a rolled-up note in there that says "Bang! You're dead!"

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I think I missed it somewhere but what is the noncon? I would assume non-conventional but which design is it? Hollow point with petals? Also when do you expect to have pricing together on the Nitro Express Bullets?
Thanks,
Mac

Mac

I did a little write up on "NonCons" on the B&M site, this is the direct link to that, I think it will help you understand more about it and how they work, and some of the different NonCons, or bullets that I consider Non-Conventional.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

I have prices for the copper versions, but not the brass yet. I will do a page on the B&M site with those soon. I don't want to get them up before Dan puts them on his website and sorts them out--would be bad taste I think. However I can get you specifics if you PM me, and that goes for all of you as well.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
.584 750gr
.584 700gr NonCon
.620 900gr
.620 850gr NonCon


Solids in both .584 and .620 are 100%, no concerns with me at all. What I am not 100% sure of is the NonCons in .584 and .620--That will be one really big HP in diameter!

Michael

As far as the HPs, the darn cavity will be so big that passing birds might get sucked in

Might be able to stick a rolled-up note in there that says "Bang! You're dead!"

CCMDoc








HE HEH HEHH

M

Can't wait to see what those HPs launched from my 600 OverKill do to a watermellon or one of those 5 gallon water jugs!

BIG hollow points make BIG holes!

What is the density difference between copper and brass? Say on a 577 750 grain BBW #13 bullet how long are each of the bullets?