Very Entertaining!!!

Michael,

Don't blame that on me. You are the one that came up with the name and it stuck!

Sam

Michael,

Thanks for posting the data I asked for.

465H&H

I came up with BBW? I thought you did? I don't remember? It don't matter, you, me, whatever, all the same in the end! HEH HEH........

H--
I think Sam dug that up for you.
M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Due to the lack of any sort of response it would seem that there is no interest in this subject, other than you and I and maybe a small handful of others. With this in mind I am going to discontinue any further test work on this, other than of course what you and I do. Since it is not pertinent to me personally, I have much other work that has come up short because of this, so I will get on with my other work and discontinue barrel strains and pressure work on this. Without any interest in the subject there is no need in wasting my time on it.


Michael

Michael,

I am too ignorant to add much input to what you guys do...but I must say that I read and learn from all that you do. Infact...I have probably learned more from you and Sam than just about any other sorce in terminal ballistics, bullet design, and barrel/bullet mechanics.

Sometimes I get behind in my reading as you are a prolific writer...but I usually catch up.

Please keep up the good work.

I too believe the CEB Bastard #13 is going to shoot in my .500 NE as well.

I took it (my rifle) to Baily Bradshaw to put on an aperature sight, make the folding rear-blade a shallow-V with gold line for back-up, and replace the front course post with a small fiber-optic. I had decided some of my poor groups were due to my failing eyes and those factory Merkel sights.

When Bailey gets it back to me...am going to first try Sam's reccomendation load of IMR-4350 and some more R-15 too. I think it was regulating pretty close with your bullets and R-15 before I gave up on the sights.

Definitely will share my results with you guys when I am done.

Please keep up the good work!!! I appreciate all your help and work GREATLY!!!!!!!!!!

to Michael & Sam

WOW, thanks Lane! Your words carry a long way with me. Like a good puppy, pat on the head, I am your man! LOL.......... A loyal servant!

Sometimes if someone don't have something to say, yes, no, agree, don't agree, something, I have no way to gauge if anyone cares or even paying any attention. I will continue to do the work as always regardless, because of my curious nature, and I like things to be as good as they can be. But, it's also a lot of work to photograph, document, and post the data as well. I figure if no one cares, I will still do it, but no need to post it. That was all, and seemed at one point I was getting little or zero response down here on the doubles.

But it seems there is much more interest in these projects than I thought at one point. I know some of the work excited both Sam and Myself to great degrees, especially some of the strain gage work, and the POIs involved with the doubles. Very exciting to us. Especially with the terminals to back the bullet also.

quote:

Sometimes I get behind in my reading as you are a prolific writer...but I usually catch up.

What a nice way to put it--better than full of Hot Air! LOL

Yep, little long winded sometimes, but fortunately I took typing when I was a kid. I figured at the time it was just a goof off class, but damned if I didn't learn how to type and I am pretty fast with it, and compose at the same time. HEH. Never figured I would use that talent ever, but I find I use it nearly every day of my life now! I push my kids, learn to type!

A "Ghost Ring" type setup??? If so, or similar, that's the only iron sights I can even consider these days. My eyes are not so good either!

Do keep us posted as both Sam and I are very interested in the Bottom Line!

Thanks again too!

Now, back to the range!
Michael

quote:

A "Ghost Ring" type setup??? If so, or similar, that's the only iron sights I can even consider these days. My eyes are not so good either!

Yessir.

A custom folding Ghost-ring per Bradshaw design. And a modified folding rear shallow-V blade back-up with a small red fiber-optic front bead.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sometimes if someone don't have something to say, yes, no, agree, don't agree, something, I have no way to gauge if anyone cares or even paying any attention. I will continue to do the work as always regardless, because of my curious nature, and I like things to be as good as they can be. But, it's also a lot of work to photograph, document, and post the data as well. I figure if no one cares, I will still do it, but no need to post it. That was all, and seemed at one point I was getting little or zero response down here on the doubles.

Well a few of us really do appreciate all the work you and Sam (and Dan at CEB) have done. I usually read and respond in the TBP thread and whenever it may be applicable (9.3, .409. .458, .585 and .620 stuff) I post the links to that thread here for others to read.

And y'all (can I say that even though I am from Brooklyn, NY?) can take credit for a bullet manufacturer giving us another choice and one that workes better than others out there.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
What a nice way to put it--better than full of Hot Air! LOL

But we love ya anyway ...

I read this stuff like crazy! But maybe you could save yourself
from the tedious typing by videoing yourself "showing and telling";
then post it here with Saeed's vid's and just type in the links
on this thread! Once you did it and had the hang of it, it would
save you mountains of time in the long run; I am certain!

BigFiveJack,

Michael took up typing, cake decorating and advanced decoupage in school so he can tickle those typewriters with the best of the steno pool girls.

Besides, do we really want to see and hear him on "live" video? Who knows what he does or doesn't wear under those black lab coats and frankly, I don't want to find out.

Let's leave it as photos of bullets, targets and component shelves - much safer that way!

Are you sure you want to download 10 hrs of video every day.

First up, Lane, the Ghost ring sounds great, post some photos if you can of that when you get it. Would like to see the setup. For me, if I had to use irons only, it would be the Ghost ring setup of some sort, or would be near useless for me past 25 yds. Even 25 yds I don't trust normal iron sights that much anymore. And, I have not yet learned to shoot with the glasses on? Working on that.

Doc, thanks buddy!

Now Jack, you don't have any idea of all the problems that could be associated with video and me. First of all, Doc is right, sometimes I just get really wild, wear nothing but that Black Lab coats that RIP got for me, run around like a mad man when new bullets arrive. All that rolling around on the new bullets, and my lab coat slips up a little high......... Well, I think you get the picture!

Now another big issue, if you think I am long winded, and "prolific" writer, you should see the video, boring, drag on forever, blah blah blah...even bore myself to sleep.

The biggest issue I can see with all my "Yankee" buddies out there, and some from out west, "ya'll would not understand most of what I say, because I have this lonnnnnnng drawn out deep Southern Drawl--you would be looking at each other funny and asking "What did he Say?" "Is that the same as Yous Guys?" So there would be some communication issues, and probably even some misunderstandings, so I think it best if I just type away and leave it at that.

LOL

Michael

Though raised since 3 months of age in New York City, I was born
in Virginia and have many relatives to this day in the south. So,
I think I could get by without a translator! I shall continue reading
your posts my friend. Too much good stuff to ignore!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
The biggest issue I can see with all my "Yankee" buddies out there, and some from out west, "ya'll would not understand most of what I say, because I have this lonnnnnnng drawn out deep Southern Drawl--you would be looking at each other funny and asking "What did he Say?" "Is that the same as Yous Guys?" So there would be some communication issues, and probably even some misunderstandings, so I think it best if I just type away and leave it at that.

LOL

Michael

Crack my ass up!!

Proud member "Sons of Confederate Veterans".

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Though raised since 3 months of age in New York City, I was born
in Virginia and have many relatives to this day in the south. So,
I think I could get by without a translator! I shall continue reading
your posts my friend. Too much good stuff to ignore!

Well Jack, being born in VA gives you good genetics, but only 3 months on the right side of the line may not be enough to understand the language? I don't know? I still think you might have to have a translator at least close by just in case.

Good news is, we will just continue to type for now, so we are a ways out yet before going strictly to video down loads. So long as you can read, decipher my poor grammar, then I think we are good to go!

LOL

Don

I knew I Liked you!

M

One of my Great Grandfathers,whom I knew well as a kid, was H.L. Davis of Rotan, TX. He was born in Georgia in late 1800's. He was the second cousin of Jefferson Davis the president of the Confederate States.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
One of my Great Grandfathers,whom I knew well as a kid, was H.L. Davis of Rotan, TX. He was born in Georgia in late 1800's. He was the second cousin of Jefferson Davis the president of the Confederate States.

That is some neat history Lane. Some of my family did a lot of work some years ago on the family tree. I really did not pay much attention to that period of time, but the one thing that stuck in my mind over the years was that one of my great grandfathers was with Washington at Valley Forge. I thought that was pretty neat. Of course, I did not know him! LOL......

Michael

Michael and Sam

I just pulled the "steel jacket solid bullets" in a 10 pack of BELL (Brass Extrusion Laboratories, Ltd.) factory loaded ammo in .500/.465. Ammo probably loaded in the late 70's or early 80's?? To my surprise, they were not the traditional Woodleighs but some make of banded bullet. Pix have been emailed to Michael as I am not smart enough to post. BTW, the bullets are 480 gr. measuring .467 dia.. The charge was 98.8 gr. IMR 4350.

Is this diameter bullet available in the CEB's? Do you feel with certainty it is safe in a 1936 H&H? You may have performed barrel stress tests that I may have missed.

Again, thanks for all your great work!!

Don

Yep, got the photos of the bullets! And will be posted below. I was amazed to see these, I can't imagine who might have made such a thing? Steel Jackets with bands? Hmmm? Looks like that might be a very thick jacket to be able to put the bands in?

quote:

Is this diameter bullet available in the CEB's? Do you feel with certainty it is safe in a 1936 H&H? You may have performed barrel stress tests that I may have missed.

Since I have had no requests for this diameter .465--.467 or whatever, then I have not had a run made, nor has Sam. Now that is not an issue, it's a phone call or an email to put in an order is all and they get on the schedule, so getting them is not an issue. Whatever you can dream of can pretty much be done, and just a caliber change is easy to do, at least for me since I am not having to actually do it! HEH HEH HEH--Very easy for me!

Safe in your gun? Well, I am no expert on safety in doubles! But, in many different barrel strain tests in two different calibers and rifles, the CEB and North Forks came out on the "Bottom" every single time, regardless of velocity or pressures involved. And being on the Bottom is good! So if anything is safe, the CEBs would have to be. I would say much safer than what we see above. But, also don't take my advice, Sam has much more experience in this area. I am pretty sure he would say good to go, but will leave that for him to actually say! LOL......

Michael

Michael, If you would like 1 bullet to examine/keep or up to 10 to shoot. I will post it/them to you with my compliments!

Don

Ain't nothing to me to rattle one down the barrel--.467 down .474 barrel not too good for stability, and being a round nose that is going to be unstable anyway, would not be much of a test I think. Since I don't have a .465 barrel? Maybe I need a 465 B&M to work with eh? HEH.

Back doing the barrel strains on 458s I just had to see what would happen with a .416 caliber solid going down a 458 barrel? Barrel strain you know, I was hoping to get to zero maybe? Well I suppose pressures and gases are going to do something with those very sensitive strain gages and still got a reading of 10000 PSI. I suppose that makes the CEB and North Forks look really good with the barrel strains at 11000--12000 PSI?? And, I reckon no such thing as ZERO BARREL STRAIN either!

Hold on to them for now, leaving out on Friday and won't be back until mid July! Thanks however.

Michael

Very interesting design, is that a solid steel shank with copper bands affixed to the shank?

This thread is so interesting!

I'm glad y'all are so committed to the work.
Keep it up!



Cheers
Tinker

Jim and Don

Interesting to say the least. I have never run across anything like it. I am sure a little research would turn up something on what the deal was on that. Loaded in the US of A. Late 70s, early 80s, long before bands were heard of. Bands to reduce pressures and barrel strain you reckon? Reduced bearing surface for sure. Hmmmmmm?

Thanks Tinker, committed for sure to the advancement of knowledge!

Michael

What year did T/C come out with their Maxi-ball? I know it seems OT, but I think that might have been the first time I saw "bands". I got a 50 cal T/C flintlock the first year they were out whenever that was. Took a coupl of does with it too.

Artillery shells have had bands for ages. That where I got the idea for the 2 band bullet.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Artillery shells have had bands for ages. That where I got the idea for the 2 band bullet.

Sam

And an excellent idea it is!

What no 465 B&M! OK I just saw where you said you might need one. Since you hate those 470 Crapsticks you can build a 465.

Lets bump this back up for Zephyr.

Was just looking at my loaded 450/400s.
Damn sexy round with those CEBs

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
What no 465 B&M! OK I just saw where you said you might need one. Since you hate those 470 Crapsticks you can build a 465.

I would vote for that!

465H&H

Just in from Botswana. My PH buddy that used some 577 ammo loaded with BBW#13 solids sent me and email that he had shot several elephants backing up clients. He shot elephants through the shoulders and said all bullets passed through and were very effective. He wants more ammo. This is another good field report on the #13s.

Sam

Darn sure it IS!

I. Fired from a Ruger #1, which weight .458
caliber CEB BBW #13 with the D/R sized tip
will penetrate deeper on elephant:
1- 450 grn at 2400 fps
2- 500 grn at 2150 fps

II. If both rifles weigh 10 pounds even, and
fit the shooter correctly, which one will cause
the shooter to have the more unpleasant re-
coil experience?

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
I. Fired from a Ruger #1, which weight .458
caliber CEB BBW #13 with the D/R sized tip
will penetrate deeper on elephant:
1- 450 grn at 2400 fps
2- 500 grn at 2150 fps

II. If both rifles weigh 10 pounds even, and
fit the shooter correctly, which one will cause
the shooter to have the more unpleasant re-
coil experience?

Jack

That's a good question actually. The BBW#13 nose profile likes velocity better than any solid I have ever tested. As does the BBW#13 NonCon. More velocity, deeper penetration in every case so far, every caliber so far. While I have not done the Specific test that you speak of above, I do have some very close examples that might give you an answer, or us for that matter.
Example;
480 gr CEB BBW#13 Solid----22 yd Impact Velocity 2176 fps 63 inches dead straight total penetration.

450 gr CEB BBW#13 Solid----22 yd Impact Velocity 2212 fps 62 inches dead straight total penetration.

Very near equal for practical purposes. Impact Velocity not that much different, slight edge to the 450 BBW#13.

I have good confidence that if one increases the velocity of the 450 BBW#13 to 2400 fps then the 450 would go deeper than the 480 BBW#13 at 2150 fps or so. I am pretty sure the same would occur with the 500 BBW#13 as well. But only to a point, and only with ALL other factors being equal, and good to go. I also feel that if velocity of the 450 BBW#13 was dropped to say 2250 fps or so, that results would equal out, or that the 500 gr BBW#13 would exceed the 450 BBW#13. While SD is a minor factor in the overall process of properly tuned Solids today, it does still have it's place! I also have great confidence that there is a serious breaking point, where SD trumps velocity by a good margin, for example a lighter 400 gr BBW#13 Solid at velocity won't be able to penetrate as deep as the heavier bullet, where a 450 gr or heavier can compete with the added velocity.

As for the recoil? I don't think there would be a lot of difference.

One other added advantage that velocity does give you with these sort of bullets--Flat Nose Solids--is that they hit harder up front with velocity, inflict more trauma, and do more damage than one with less velocity.

Michael

I really appreciate your answer! I've PMed further. Thank you again.

Michael and 465H&H

PM sent regarding .468 bullets.

Michael, I'll commit to 4 boxes each of BBW#13 solids and non cons if we can get them made up.

Anyone else out there interested in some .468's?

Come now .468 folks, let's get some of these done. I need to get at least a run of 250 or so each of solids and noncons for it to be worthwhile running through the machines, so go ahead help Don out and commit to some of these and I will get them done for you! Since I don't have anything in .468 I really don't need to have $$ tied up in 400 or so .468 bullets! Don't mind having some left over, but come now, get with the program!

Michael

Michael and Sam,
I have learned a tremendous amount from reading your post! Thanks for the hard work and time to do and post your observations!!!!