McKay,

There really isn't a lot of difference in length of the two. I think it was around .075 or so.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
What is the density difference between copper and brass? Say on a 577 750 grain BBW #13 bullet how long are each of the bullets?

McKay

Sam gave you a length measurement, and also account for copper being about 4-5% heavier than the brass. Which makes no difference these days about a little bit of weight

Michael

I noticed that Michael had forgotten to update this thread with the latest bullet arrivals so I’ve extracted the pertinent information from the BB – Terminal Bullet Performance thread:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well, got the first delivery today of the new Nitro Bands! Look great. .474 caliber, brass, slightly wider space between the bands and a little crimp groove above top band, exactly as Sam directed!





Not a lot of difference in reality, just a little more space between bands is all. I checked this against some of my short neck cartridges and the top 3 bands are still in the neck of those for tension, so they are good to go with most any cartridge. While they say "Nitro", these can be used in bolt guns of course.

In the B&M cartridge bullets I am going to keep the bands tight up top as I have them now, and probably some of the other bullets I am going to do mostly for bolt guns. Many of the rest, such as .510 caliber will do for both bolt and doubles.

Let's see, I still have on the way and ordered, .474 470 Brass NonCon, .457 #13 480/440 Solid/NonCon, .510 caliber 570 Brass Solid/NonCon, and somewhere I think someone was wanting something in .620 Let's see, not sure I can remember who that was, well anyway I have 10 boxes of .620 900 gr #13 Solids ordered and I went ahead and had 10 boxes of NonCons run as well!

Michael

Is there a price list anywhere on these yet?

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
Is there a price list anywhere on these yet?

Hey McKay

Yes, I am listing prices on the B&M website. These are retail. Larger orders we can talk about.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...llets-Available.html

I am busy putting in some of these prices now.

Michael

As I wrote in the Big Bore forum, for those with 600NE doubles see below:

quote:

CCMDoc:
Hey Michael!

I resemble that "Test Dummy" remark!

The question now is:

What kind of velocity do you and others want me to drive them at for the test (assuming ~ 825grains for the Non-Cons)?

In the 600 OK, I think it would be pretty easy to hit 2,350 - 2,400fps with them out of a 23" barrel and keep pressures under 55k psi.

For the 600NE (which I do not have as of yet), probably 2,100fps keeping pressures under 32k psi.

Who knows where and how these would regulate in the double but since this is a test of the bullet rather than finding the right hunting load, I am open to suggestions as far as velocities for those of you who might use them in your 600NE doubles.

I know you and Sam have doen great work with the .585 in his 577NE double but if you are interested in seeing results of that projectile at higher velocities as well, my dad has an AHR-built (my present to him for his 70th birthday) 585AHR and we can drive those babies mighty fast in that.

My biggest problem is free time so I won't have results for the masses as quickly as you have been able to produce, but I'll get there, no doubt.

While you're at developing and manufacturing nice bullets for the big bore rifles, would you please work on a high-BC .458 bullet at about 350 grains for high velocity and extended range with the .458win magazine rifles?



Thanks!



Cheers
Tinker

The .474 NonCons came in yesterday, so I have the HPs and the solids available for anyone that would like to give them a go.



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
While you're at developing and manufacturing nice bullets for the big bore rifles, would you please work on a high-BC .458 bullet at about 350 grains for high velocity and extended range with the .458win magazine rifles?



Thanks!



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker

Have not been ignoring you, but really just pondering what you are asking. It is expensive to make one of these with a high BC, especially a lighter one like a 350 in .458. Honestly not sure it is worth the effort, and there is a perfectly good 350 gr Barnes TSX available CHEAP??? So it is hard to justify.

Michael

High BC, 458 caliber, 350 grains, in a copper or solid brass bullet does not go well together.

I will have by next week .510 caliber #13 Solids/NonCons---.457 caliber #13 Solids/NonCons on hand as well.

Michael

Double guys, while I was at DSC, these were waiting when I returned. I will start some terminals on these this week hopefully, especially the NonCons. These are available to you if you want any. Email me or PM if you want to give some of these a try.












Prices for these can be found here--this is retail, this is a 1 box at a time price. Get a few boxes and the price starts to drop, probably 10% to 15% depending.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...llets-Available.html

Michael

In addition to the CEBs, I am getting ready to place a large order from North Fork Tech, so if there is anything that you want from North Fork let me know, the larger the order I can make, the better the price is!

Michael

Michael, I'll take a few. PM sent!

Don

Got PM and replied back.

Michael

Hmmmm,
Those small bore non-con bullets woudl be just the ticket for one of these:





Pop's nd my trophies finally trickling in. Probably get the last of them just in time to leave for our Namibian Elephant Safari.

I just hope I get to see those .620s before I get on the plane...

I don't know Doc--this animal looks fairly mean, might want to have a "Big Bore" for it? Take no prisoners, and take no chances, sort of thing you know!

I just sent Dan an Email asking--They should have been here this week actually! You don't leave for a bit do you?

Michael

Oh, and I forgot in addition to the .620s, there are orders in for .585s in both brass and copper versions, all 3+1 NE Bands. I will have left overs after the main parties get their share of bullets, so they will be available. These for sure will not be run until Dan gets back from Shot. I requested they not be run until he is supervising these, since these have not been made other than prototypes. I want the Man on the job, not the boys!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I don't know Doc--this animal looks fairly mean, might want to have a "Big Bore" for it? Take no prisoners, and take no chances, sort of thing you know!

I just sent Dan an Email asking--They should have been here this week actually! You don't leave for a bit do you?

Michael

Hey Michael,

You may be right - I almost succumbed to the "small-bore" ideology but you pulled me back into the fold

Yeah - we dont go until November but I gotta do a load of practicing. True I need the double but my 600OK will give those .620 babies a good workout in the meantime!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Oh, and I forgot in addition to the .620s, there are orders in for .585s in both brass and copper versions, all 3+1 NE Bands. I will have left overs after the main parties get their share of bullets, so they will be available. These for sure will not be run until Dan gets back from Shot. I requested they not be run until he is supervising these, since these have not been made other than prototypes. I want the Man on the job, not the boys!

Michael

I have just the ticked for those - 585AHR!

CCMDoc

Got word back from Dan just a bit ago. Deal is, he decided we needed a bigger broach for the 585s and 620s. I concur. It's on the way. Have plenty of material and some more coming in on Tuesday. Bullet is designed. While they could be run next week, Dan is not there next week and is at either Shot or SCI, I think Shot. Like I said, I want Dan there on the first runs of the .620s and .585s to make sure all is good to go. So soon as he returns from the shows then all of the .585s and .620s will be run and I will get my hands on them! So not next week, but the following they will be done.

Oh man, don't ever go backwards once you been to big bore--you can never go back! I am getting so bad I don't even care much for my very own 9.3 and 416 B&M--I start to get interested at 458! But, since .500 is as big as we can EASY go in a Win M70, mine stops at .500 until Sam comes with the 577! HEH

Michael

Once again Michael and I will be doing some 470 strain gage testing this week. Mainly the new NE 4 band CEB solids. If any of you have a favorite load you wish to have tested or something else in the 470 nitro let me know before Thursday. I will try to make some loads to test.

Sam

[QUOTE]Originally posted by srose:
"Once again Michael and I will be doing some 470 strain gage testing this week. Mainly the new NE 4 band CEB solids. If any of you have a favorite load you wish to have tested or something else in the 470 nitro let me know before Thursday. I will try to make some loads to test."

sam

Please run a few through a sizer and lube them if possible. If not the 4 bands maybe some tsx.

All three of my doubles copper foul, When I added pufflon it help accuarcy and cleaning, but was a mess to use. It would be so easy to lube them if it would help.


I noticed on the foam pillow stuffing test foam was lower pressure for same load but fps was down also. Added a grain or two of powder to the foam load and get the same fps
, it will be interesting to compare if pressure is the same at same fps.

Thanks for the fine work.

I hope to shoot some of the 474's y'all sent me this weekend or next.

JD

JD,

Will do. I think the lubed bullet we tested before but I will lube a couple of the NE 4 band just for comparison. Good idea to up powder charge a grain or two with the foam also.

Sam

Thanks Sam
You shot two lubed bullets and pressure was down quite a bit but fps was the same. Lubeing something like a tsx or the 4 bands may make a
bigger differance than foam or stuffing.
Run the 4895 foam loads up to the same fps as the pillow stuffing loads and compare pressure , then lube to see if pressure comes back down with out effecting fps.


I like the h4895 because it is the powder hodgen recommends for reduced loads. It just seens to shoot well fron the low end to the high end. Varget or rl15 seems to like narrow pressure bands to work well. ( Your experience may be different). You guys are doing a great job,

You are compiling enough material , there should be a book or a paper in the works.


JD

JD,

You're welcome. I am just about out of new brass from the lot we have been using so may not get everything done. I did lube a few CEB's to compare. Yes we found that sometimes pressures and velocity were lower with lube but not very consistant. More testing may be needed. I did find fouling was less with lubed TSX and other copper bullets.
I also loaded up some RL-15 loads with 1 grain steps and foam to see how those compare. I have quite a few different fillers with RL-15 to test. Maybe this will tell us a little more about what and what not to use as a filler. If my shoulder will hold up tomorrow should be interesting.

Sam

Good morning Double guys! Sam and I pretty much concluded our "Barrel Strain" test work with the 470 Nitro yesterday. Starting right off we had a broken wire on the strain gage, almost shut us down completely. Sam managed to sort it out and we did get some additional readings on the 500 CEB BBW #13 Solids, copper and brass. While yesterdays readings were a tad higher than some previous readings, they were still equal to the 500 Woodleigh Soft Point--the benchmark bullet. Average of the BBW #13s both brass and copper still below that Benchmark, as are the North Fork Solids as well. In the end we lost the strain gage on the 470 Nitro and Sam will be removing it.

Here are the final results from everything, and later I will post this on the B&M website to replace the existing pdf document with this updated one.

Just FYI and make of it what you will!







Michael

Sam and I had our work cut out for us yesterday, we spent from around 8 am to around 5:30 pm or 6 on the range. It was a long day to say the least.

When we first started the pressures and barrel strain work we had a short test of fillers, dacron and foam backer rod. Of which there were some major differences in pressures and velocities of those, much to our surprise. Yesterday we investigated this with some different fillers with the same load.

Here are the results of that;




As you can see there are some EXTREME differences with some of these fillers that could drive pressures beyond safe limits and cause lot's of issues for you!

Michael

What were the weights on your various filler materials? Dacron and foam backer rods in particular.

Thanks

Emory

Good question, I did not load, but when Sam comes online I am sure he can answer you on that. The one I do remember was the Quaker Grits and it was 19 grs.

Michael

Not sure of the weights of the foam and Dacron fillers off the top of my head. I think the foam was only 2 grains maybe and Dacron 4-5. I will check that out tonight and get back with the exact weights.

I want to say that I never thought the fillers would be so different in pressure. I have used lots of fillers and thought they all worked good. I have never liked dacron but used it quite a bit. The cereal fillers I aways thought worked pretty good but were a mess to work with. I really think now after seeing how much difference there is in pressure from some of these fillers that I would not recomend any filler other than the foam type. Dacron and cereal are out for me. I think now that the pressure spike issues we have all read about over the years has been caused by the fillers not the powders. Also I am liking the slow powder idea with no filler better. I don't think there are any problems using these slower powders. This is my opinon anyway.

Sam

Michael and Sam,

Your great work continues and I want to thank you for addressing so many issues that play around in my mind.

Sam,

I am sure you said it somewhere or it is in Michaels site or in a photo but the "System" blocks any photos that are linked and any sites they consider non-PC so i can't find the answer so ...
What foam (brand or place of purchase)are you using and what thickness or height are you using for the tests?

Many thanks to both of you,

Paul

CCMDOC,

I have been using foam backer rod that I buy at Lowes. It comes in 20 foot lengths and is very cheap. You can get this is most sizes from 1/4 to 1 inch in 1/8 inch steps. Very easy to cut to length with a razor blade. I use a wood dowel to measure how deep powder is in case and then mark the dowel for the length of the bullet base to crimp groove. This will give me the length of the air space between the base of bullet and powder. I then just cut the foam rod 1/8 inch longer than this to be sure and hold powder tight against primer.

Thanks Sam - that's exactly what I will do.

I simply must tell this story of woe and despair, of trial and tribulations my boy Sam went through yesterday!

As you know we had a rather long day. And nearly every time we have a test day, we always wait to the last of the test work to do our 50 yd POI and accuracy work, which is not a real good idea! Both of us a bit weary near the end! But somehow it just ends up that way regardless!

Sam had brought down my most favorite of Doubles, the 500 Nitro. Absolutely a gorgeous piece of work, with nice petite little 24 inch barrels, man is it great. It's the "Cats Ass" no doubt! So Sam has us these new shiny spiffy 570 gr CEB BBW #13s along with the 535 NonCons loaded up ready to shoot. He gets locked into the 50 yd bench and goes to work! We are expecting great things with this--But it is not to be? Shots from the right barrel left, shots from the left right, High, low, scattered to hell and back??? What? How can this be? These bullets have shot great in everything we have put them in, what is the issue? We know the gun shoots the 2 band in a wad at 50 yds as well?

Take a walk, clear and replace the targets---They get trashed of course! Nothing there to keep! Try it again--Same story, no better! OK, I sit down with it, give it my best shot, and things do not improve, not that I expected them to with me shooting anyway! Not with irons for sure!

Oh man, talk about despair and heartache, poor Sam was almost distraught at this point! Damned 4 band bullets ain't worth a damn! I am going back to the 2 band, he says! The 2 bands did great, now these just won't shoot! Oh it was getting very depressing at this point!

I said ok, I know the bullets are good, they have to shoot. Let me go get the 510 Wells, I have these loaded up with a mild 96/RL 15 and we will try them, I have a forward scout scope on for test work in this thing, lets see what happens!

We did, and after 3 of the 570 CEB BBW#13 Solids I quit, then 3 of the 535 CEB BBW#13 NonCons, I quit.




This really did not help Sam's spirit at all--In fact I could see more despair on his face now! So we had a little Pow Wow and started talking about seating depths! I don't know which of us, both of us or who decided that we had to run and load some quickly to try. He had brought dies, but I run Dillons and don't have a 500 Nitro shell plate--I won't go into details, but we managed to size and literally hammer out primers, and beat new ones in, and somehow we managed to hobble up some loads with the bullets seated OUT further, and some seated IN deeper. In Sam's memory he remembered the 2 bands being seated deeper. Well in my feeble mind I figured seating them out further would surely tighten this up, not deeper!!!!! No way, so we had some banter back and fro, and started shooting these "Hobbled" up loads, some deeper than others and so forth, they really didn't look so great, but they did go in the rifle!

OK, seated out first! Bad, no luck at all, scattered everywhere! OK, Michael was wrong, won't be the first time, Next!

Seated deep! Shot #1 right barrel, shot #2 left barrel, MUCH CLOSER TOGETHER, Shot #2 Right Barrel--dead next to Shot #1, Shot #2 Left Barrel--dead next to shot #1!!! All 4 shots within 2 inches, right together, left together in nearly the same hole! Big Smile, happy Sam and all is much better, just some tweaking to do is all!

Well the moral of this story is not for you guys, but for me! Sam, and most all of you guys here on doubles know all about this sorta thing! Me? Man I have a hard enough time shooting 1 rifle with 1 barrel, now you want to throw in 1 rifle with two barrels? Might be more than I can bear? Might have to "Double" my dose of medication to get through these sort of affairs! Pun intended! HEH HEH!

Michael

Michael,

I knew you couldn't keep your mouth shut!!!!

OK yes I was not on my game yesterday I thought and really got down about those #$%% 4 band bullets. I thought of It being my fault that Dan changed the band style and Michael in his impulse buying ordered 5000 in solids and non cons for the .510s and now both of these guys are going to want me to pay for them.

After going though all this shooting yesterday and cobbling up a bunch of ammo I realized that the 4 band surely has its place in allowing a double shooter to vary his seating depth to find the sweet spot. My 500 likes this bullet seated deep and some others may like it out alittle or alot. We all know how picky some doubles can be. My 470 likes all the CEBs regardless of how they are seated or how many bands they have. I will also say that both of my 500s have been picky, more so that any other doubles I have worked with. Everyone that I have talked with that has used the CEB 2 or 4 bands bullets has had great luck and guns seem to shoot these better than any other bullet tried. This includes me except my 500.

Sam

quote:

Michael,

I knew you couldn't keep your mouth shut!!!!

ME?



No Way!

As both of you are handloaders, I bet when you consider your life experiences with reloading you will find there have been other guns with other loads that were particular about seating depths.

I would have been saying the same thing Sam was - changed the obvious variable and it all went to sh-t - except you and he realized that it wasnt the only variable that had changed. I dont know that I would have figured it out and would probably still be beating my head

Sam

Who is the maker of your .500 used in the test? Once dialed in, what was the OAL? What powder and charge? I just got the .510 bullets from Michael and you may be able to prevent some frustration.

Don,

My 500 used in tests was a Verney Carron but not as pretty as yours I think. The load used was 105 grains of IMR4350 and the bullet was seated where I crimped into the top groove above the top band. Be careful when seating and crimping, my dies have a taper crimp and were trying to crimp before bullet was seated deep enough. I seat first and crimp later.

I have also used 110 grains of IMR4831 with Woodleigh softs that regulates good in my gun. This load with the CEB bullet is pretty compressed and this is why I started seating the new bullets further out. Thats where the problems started. I have not tried RL-15 yet with these bullets.

Let me know how your gun does.

Sam