Thanks Michael, but a lot of the credit does go to you to.

Thanks Max for the information, very interesting. What I have learned so far is the only a very minor change in nose shape can have a major effect in how a bullet performs. Should be testing the Woodleigh Hyros next week in the 470 along with others. Hopefully in a few weeks I will be able to share information on how the BBW#13 performs on elephant.

Sam

Sam

I know exactly what that BBW #13 is going to do on elephant! It will be the single most effective 577 Nitro load that has ever existed to this date, period!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I have been on the range a good portion of the morning, seeing what I could break today!

Mac

I wish I could take some credit, but most all the credit must go to Sam for this one! I was just a monkey playing with the computer, and doing a few penetration tests is all!

In time we will be checking lot's of things, like Sam said, before the tests the other day we were going with the 4 bands, but the test work was so incredible, we really didn't want to change anything at that point.


Paul, we thinking about you! As you see!

Michael

"You like me! You really, really like me!" Said in my best Sally Field at the Oscars voice

Thanks a lot guy's what a great body of work.

As a reloader your test have proven what I would have suspected from the diffrent bullets.


Please use your set up to run pressure test with a 86 gr load of rl15 and a similar load of h4895.with both foam and pillow stuffing. H4895 is recommened by Hodgen for reduced loads,where the case is not filled completly. Being able to use h4895 would solve the problem of lot to lot changes that rl 15 is famous for. In this month "Rifle Magazine" a article on the 470 had Elmer Kieth recommending 80 grs of IMR 4895 or IMR 3031 with a 500 gr bullet as a load for the 470.

I have shoot up to 55 grs of A5744 with a 500 gr bullet in a 470, it would be intresting to see if we could get 2150 fps with a 500 gr bullet, with out excessive pressure that would end the need for fillers.


You work is much need by the reloading commuity, it should put a end to much of the debate on what bullets and powders or safe in modern doubles. It will help make reloading safer and help protect our doubles from damage.

Your work on penetration may some day make the differance between walking a way or getting stomped for any number of guys who visit here, who like to step in harms way.


Thank you both very much!

JD

Jd,

You're welcome and I will be glad to load up some different powders to see how they compare. The main object of these tests is to find out which bullets cause the least stress on the barrels. As long as the gages are hooked up to my 470 we might as well find out all we can.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Jd,

You're welcome and I will be glad to load up some different powders to see how they compare. The main object of these tests is to find out which bullets cause the least stress on the barrels. As long as the gages are hooked up to my 470 we might as well find out all we can.

Sam

Thanks Sam , there has been so much debate here on filler verse no fillers , foam vs pillow stuffing , rl15 vs 4831, I think h4895 may be
a better option than rl15.

If you don't use foam I can send you some plugs that will be cut for 86 grs of rl15/ h4895. If you don't have any H 4895 I buy it,in support for the expermint.

PM me you address if you need the plugs.

JD

JD,

Not a problem, I have foam and dacron plus card wads. Plan on testing lots of things while we are at it as long as I can keep Michael interested in learning more about doubles.

Sam

This has been an absolutely fascinating thread! Thanks for sharing the results of your considerable research.

I think I may have found a new bullet for my .416 hoffman when you guys get around to making them in that size.

Received some more bullets to run through the 470 tests today. For next week we will have the following to test. Barnes mono solids from the old days, Swift A Frame SP, Woodleigh Hydro solid, North Fork solid, and Trophy Bonded solid. I also hope to have more Kynoch cordite that is dated.

Sam

Just as Importantly, it LOOKS like a Killer, too. FINE-looking projectile! I GOTTA get something to SHOOT them with!

Guys, just to let you know, I really appreciate the overwhelming positive response to this work.



KYJim

It's an excellent bullet, just go up to Terminals on Big Bore and there are many examples, several calibers, and they all are doing a great job.

Currently I have on order for myself two versions in .500 caliber for my rifles, a 500 gr Brass BBW #13 for my bolt guns, and a 425 gr Copper Version for my .500s in the lever guns. These are not the two band versions, but 7 small bands for those guns. I do have on order 250 500 gr BBW#13s in copper, 2 band to test in my .500 bolt guns.

I will be using two solids in the future for everything I do, yes, the BBW #13 in all calibers I shoot, and the North Fork FPS. One has little need for more than those two.

Thanks again guys, both Sam and I appreciate the support.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
This has been an absolutely fascinating thread! Thanks for sharing the results of your considerable research.

I think I may have found a new bullet for my .416 hoffman when you guys get around to making them in that size.

DLS

Don't worry, there will be a 416 version. Probably first up a 350 gr version.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Plan on testing lots of things while we are at it as long as I can keep Michael interested in learning more about doubles.
Sam

I received a special delivery yesterday, I knew I had not ordered a book and could not figure out what it was until I opened it and discovered this beautiful book! I looked at it, had never seen it before, and had only heard Sam mention this fellow Graeme Wright, but knew nothing of him myself.

Now I am quite sure this is old hat to all of you guys down here, but I just have never had any personal interest in double rifles, so be that as it may I am rather ignorant of such matters. But always looking to learn if I can keep my interest up before moving to the next project.

I think Sam is worried about me loosing interest so he had this wonderfully beautiful book sent to me! While I have not started it yet I have just thumbed through it and looks like there is a great deal of interesting things inside the cover! I will soon learn of these things!

Thank You Sam! A very nice surprise!

quote:

7. 466 Brass BBW #13 #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 39172 PSI--Velocity 2141 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--20013


8. 500 Copper BBW #13 CEB #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 30029 PSI--Velocity 2142 FPS

#2 Barrel Strain--20265

Is this the difference between brass and soft copper?

The downstream pressure on the barrels really isn't much different for any of the tests. The pressure must be maintained in the barrels in order to achieve the desired velocity.

The significantly lower peak pressure for the copper bullet is somewhat surprising in that if the velocity is a function of the p-v area, then the velocity should be lower. Presumably the higher peak pressures of the other bullets are a result of overcoming the initial static resistance.

The most interesting result will be the eventual comparison to North Fork solids. They apparently do not show this relatively small peak pressure, but are essentially the same design, just more but thinner bands.

Will

Yes, we think so at this point. We think getting started the brass bullet is a little harder and requires a little more push, but once it gets going down the bore brass is more self lubricating than the copper, therefore excellent numbers on barrel strain.

That's the theory right now.

There is still much work to be done, but it's looking very good right now.

When Sam returns we will continue this test with some other bullets next week.

Michael

Will

While there seems to not be a lot of difference downstream as you say, there is more than enough difference to show what is easier on the barrels, in my opinion. You would not see as much difference downstream, as you do upstream in peak pressures, and what I think you do see downstream in indicative of the pressures the individual bullets are putting on the bore themselves, which would be closer numbers of course, but still substantial enough to see a difference in hardness, bands, band width, number of bands, and no bands, and so forth.

Yes, I agree, there are interesting result to come next week. North Fork is part of the tests next week also. Along with some other bullets. If I had to take a guess right now, and that's all it is a guess. I would say the North Forks will enter with lower peak pressures, somewhere between the BBW Copper and the BBW Brass, and that the barrel strain will be just very slightly more than the BBW Copper, maybe close to the 500 Woodleigh Soft Point, but not more than. Now that would be my pure wild ass guess right now, so don't hold me to that. I would love to see them come in less than! I am a big North Fork fan, and a big fan of the BBW #13s, which in the future I will use both of these depending on the mission at hand.

Michael

quote:

I just have never had any personal interest in double rifles, so be that as it may I am rather ignorant of such matters.

BURN HIM (but only after he delivers the bullets)!

Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

I just have never had any personal interest in double rifles, so be that as it may I am rather ignorant of such matters.

BURN HIM (but only after he delivers the bullets)!

Peter.

Yes, this is my ticket, don't burn until bullets in hand! HEH HEH

This in mind, I might only have one bullet in stock at a time, drag this thing out a bit!

Michael

OK enough of this Internet BS! Get OFF the web, ON the lathe, and start churning out some bullets. I am hot to trot. I am not an expert, but a small hint: Think concentric! All this pressure stuff is fine but I would like the things to go in a straight line rather than a spiral!
Can't wait to try these (which does NOT mean you can jack up the price!!!!). This is exciting!
BTW, what about a solid in 9.3? Any plans?
Peter.

Peter

Hey now, I don't run those CNC machines, and you better be happy I don't, you talk about a mess we would have! I am just the "Lab Guy"!

Straight? You betcha, I am all about them going straight during terminals! In fact I have been fighting the "Straight" battle a long time now, and have battled with it hard and fast! We got the straight part figured out pretty good! Just go up to terminals on big bore, can't miss it, they tell me it's the biggest thread in AR History. But you know how "they" are? Been doing straight up there a good bit!

I see you are coming up short on 9.3 in the straight department? I was too! The only two bullets I found worth a damn in 9.3 is the 286 North Fork and the 286 Woodleigh Hydro. Both dead straight! The North Fork edging the Hydro by a long margin on depth of penetration.

Still there are no decent 250 gr bullets. So I recently had CEB do a run of these and opted for 260 gr and 68% meplat.



Not the 2 band version, but what CEB calls the seal tight bands. Very very accurate in my 9.3 B&Ms, or at least good enough for me at 50 yds.



Penetration is very good, on occasion at the very last part of penetration, 2-3 inches they loose stability and may be an inch or so off course that last couple of inches. However, most all of them can do that once and awhile in this test medium, so that's not a huge concern at that point.



All in all, it's the best lighter weight 9.3 we have at all right now.

Yes, I do have a plan of taking the BBW #13 to 9.3 in the future however.

Guys, there are a LOT of bullets on the drawing board going in faster than CEB can keep up with us! There is still another nose profile we are going to do, but I placed some priorities on some things to get them moving, and the double rifle bullets is at the top of the list right now, in several different calibers.

Today CEB sent Sam out a run of 577 750 gr BBW #13s for his hunt coming up in a couple of weeks! Yippie!

Today I received the prototype run of the 500 gr .500 caliber Brass BBW #13s and 425 gr Copper BBW #13 in .500. Will be testing them this weekend and expect to approve the production run on Monday, if not before. They look incredible!

Michael

Damn, 57inches for a 9.3 is pretty darn good. Please keep me in mind when you get some of these 9.3 260's in, as well, of course, as the 510 BBW #13 copper in 570 grain.
Peter.

Peter

HEH HEH

I have 1000 of the 9.3s on my shelf right now!

Michael

Hi from Florida......where the 9.3 is the Big Game boolit of choice for does what noes.
I would love to access 50 or so of the copper bullets when they come available.
Alex

Sigh! Playing hard to get are we?!!!!
Price (for a nice guy)?
Peter.

Peter

PM sent.

Conifer

The 9.3s posted above? I have those on the shelf now.

Michael

I don't mean to take us off course, but since we are talking a bit about 9.3s here were the tests of the North Fork and the WOodleigh Hydro recently.






Pretty much in the future I will be throwing my support to 3 basic profiles right now, of course the BBW #13, the North Fork, and another nose profile Sam came up with, right now just a BBW. I work with and will use other profiles too, such as the 9.3 260 above, and it's a good profile, but the BBW#13 is the one to beat for depth of penetration and almost always near 100% dead straight line penetration. Honestly guys, start going over 50 inches in this test medium it really does not make a lot of difference from that point, and like I said, it's not a depth of penetration contest anyway, but I won't except anything going under 98% dead straight line penetration all the way. If a bullet looses stability the last 2-3 inches that's a moot point and of little consequence. If it looses it's stability at anything under 40 inches of penetration I would have very serious concerns about that bullet in the field! I personally would not have it in my rifle!

Michael

And where can we find prices for these beauties now that we are becoming addicted to the future.
Frank

Frank

You can contact me by PM for right now, but we are still sorting things out, and I don't have prices yet. Dan at CEB is out in the field and won't be back in for another week, so another week or two hopefully will have some prices, I think they will be in line and reasonable with some of the super premiums, like North Fork. Speaking of which I did some pressure tests with my 50 B&M and the new .500 caliber North Fork CPS 450 gr. Boys, bands make a difference. Big difference. I was able to get this 450 gr bullet to 2365 fps, I had stopped at 2225 fps in the past. Was able to take it way up, because of the bands. A similar 426 gr bullet I can't run but to 2250 fps at the same pressure levels! The bands. I think the North Fork is going to test well in this coming weeks tests wit the 470 Nitro.

Michael

Hey when you guys are ready for some field trials you should use an independent unbiased tester. I will let you send me to africa to shoot 10-15 elephants to get some good test info.

quote:

Originally posted by Max Trauma:
Hey when you guys are ready for some field trials you should use an independent unbiased tester. I will let you send me to africa to shoot 10-15 elephants to get some good test info.

Wow Max, what a sacrifice! You only meet the best folks here, always willing to help out!

Thanks, I will take all this under advisement!

HEH

Good Show

Michael

Hello Double guys, I have not forgot about you! We are working on bullets and other issues I assure you. FYI, Sam sent this down today;

750 gr CEB BBW #13 577 Nitro







Michael

Wooow! Sam sure can shoot! He is not built like Mike Tyson but he sure handles those big doubles like Sugar Ray - very fast and accurate!!

Good luck on your trip Sam. I can't wait to see the recovered bullets (if any) from the elephant!

Nakihunter,

Thanks but I'm afraid with my eyes going bad I can't shoot as well as I used to. I know the gun will do better. New bullets are easy to get to regulate and now that I have enough to adjust I will move the sights to center the group. Only about 2 weeks away from elephant hunt so I'm getting excited.
More tests with 470 tomorrow.

Sam

That pic of the 577's is making me salivate

Close to 90 rds of 470 and 577 shot today on Michael's range. Lots of interesting data!!! Some things fell right in place as we thought they would and some others were eye opening. I'm beat up and tired but glad I went through it all.

OK one little tid bit. Which is better foam or dacron filler? I'll let Michael post all the data and I know with as much as we did today it will take him a while to get it all down.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Close to 90 rds of 470 and 577 shot today on Michael's range. Lots of interesting data!!! Some things fell right in place as we thought they would and some others were eye opening. I'm beat up and tired but glad I went through it all.

OK one little tid bit. Which is better foam or dacron filler? I'll let Michael post all the data and I know with as much as we did today it will take him a while to get it all down.

Sam

What a tease, I shot the h4895 loads today 82 grs with the hornady and woodleigh softs. also shot 86 of rl 15 same bullets Chrony would not work but both loads shot to same point of aim at 25 yards
.
With the hornady softs the h4895 was crossing just a little. My guess is the pressure is about the same. The hornadys were harder and make just a little more pressure.


JD

JD,

We did shoot a IMR4895 load of 75 grains in our test. Having never used this powder in my 470 I just started at that. It had OK pressure and velocity was a little low. One very interesting thing we found that needs further testing is the foam or dacron filler. I know I'm going to make some people upset but the dacron gave much higher pressures with the same powder charges than the foam did. I have always liked foam and this just made my mind up. When Michael gets time to post you will see the difference. Now we have something else to test oh boy!

Sam

I am working on the reports now and trying to put them together in a simple manner in which every one can get see. First I am doing a very simple spreadsheet on the numbers. Then we can discuss a few things that cropped up yesterday like the dacron issue, and of course some over very valid points.

Coming soon

Michael

90 rounds of 470 and 577, you are tougher than me.

I am anxiously awaiting the latest info.


In case anybody wants some cheap practice bullets, MidSouth shooter has "blemished" .474 500 grain bullets for sale. I received 200 yesterday and they look good. Hornady DGX I believe.