CCMDoc

Thanks, but I had a lot of help along the way too.

No man, that's called a bolt action rifle. It's not a wart on the side, that's the bolt handle! They only have 1 barrel attached. Much lighter than two rifles duct taped together too. Safe to shoot nearly any kind of bullet down the bore, don't have to worry about regulation of two guns at once, and marvelously versatile. Shoot light bullets, heavy bullets, medium bullets, aluminum bullets, brass, copper, bronze, lead, probably even chunk some rocks down the bore and be good to go. LOT"S CHEAPER too! Man can buy anywhere from 4-25 of these for the price of 1 double duct taped two barreled shooter.

HEH

I can't change the header from page to page, the header stays on every page or I would put a double rifle up there for you guys, one of Sam's.

I will be adding some other stuff on that page in the future, been wanting to do some talking about scopes and some other things too. I have to think back of all the crazy things I have done over the years that would fit that page! There is plenty I am sure.

Michael

On the subject of 600 Nitro Express, what weight do you guys anticipate for the .620 bullet?

Which will be available - copper, brass or both?

Any idea on bullet length?

Thanks,
Paul

Paul,

900 grain would be the proper weight for a 600NE. CEB can make any weight you want and in any material. I would suggest that you contact Dan at CEB and tell what you want. You can get your bullets direct from CEB as soon as they go into production. We are still making a few minor changes to bullets. We want to make sure you get the best bullet possible.

Sam

Thanks Sam, will do.

Paul

CEB must have become VERY popular - can't log on to their website as they have exceeded their bandwidth!

Will try again later.

Paul

Sam and I talked about a week ago, and trying to come up with a plan to get things moving. I am trying to formulate a plan so everyone can get a chance to get the bullets. But first we have to get everything in order before production runs.

#1--Get the 4 band prototype done in copper, for sure a 470 version so we can test barrel strain. Once confirmed that we can keep barrel strain levels low, then we can proceed to the next step.

#2--I am taking the BBW #13s that I had done in .500 caliber to 4 bands also. They had 8 originally for the bolt guns. But I could use a pressure reduction plan also, so dropping to 4 bands.

#3--Now we have decided 4 bands, both for bolt and doubles. For bolt guns I need 67%--68% meplat to make sure of feeding from the magazines. We decided to take the double bullets down to 67%--68% meplat too, keep things consistent, and easy across the board on the design from one caliber to the next, will work both in doubles and bolts. This morning I concerned myself a bit about the poor twist rates normally in the doubles--poor as far as terminal penetration being very slow. But I have seen 65% meplats stabilize themselves in slow twist rates, and in worst case scenarios 65% will stabilize to at least 90% of total penetration, which is more than enough. So I think at 67%-68% meplat there won't be any issues with 1:18 to 1:20 twists. 67-68% Will give deeper penetration on average than 70%.

#4--I say we go copper, and will make initial production runs in all the most popular double rifle calibers, which Sam will decide, and in all common weights for solids. 500 gr .474, 570 .510, 750 .585, and 900 .620. and so forth.

I am going to have the first production run done for you guys, assuming we can get all the bugs worked out. I know there are a lot of you with concerns about regulation and so forth. I am thinking that I can get say 20-25 bullets out to you to try first, if they work in your rifle then you can get more either from me until the initial production runs out, or straight from CEB from then on. So if I get this run done for you, don't leave me hanging with them either! HEH HEH.......But we got to get them going somehow for you!

Now for us bolt trash guys, I am having a 1000 500 gr .500 caliber brass BBW #13s done in 4 bands, and another 1000 425 gr copper BBW #13s in .500 for the 50 B&M AK. When those come in I will be looking at a 500 gr and 450 gr brass 458, and a 350 gr brass 416. I think I am going to do a 9.3 also, probably 260 gr brass. All these the same, 67%-68% meplat and 4 bands to keep pressures down and performance high.

Now comes the cool part!!!! We ain't finished yet! You boys gotta have some "Buffalo Smashers", eh? I already talked to CEB about taking the same BBW #13 and putting a hollow point in it. Some of you know from the terminal thread upstairs I am hot on the brass and copper Non Conventional bullets. I am thinking of the design, Sam is helping out by sending some samples that I will test this week. Right now I have a couple of things in mind, I think a more shallow HP with 6 blades that will open up and shear during penetration. This might be a little foreign to some of you unless you have followed the Terminal Thread. Remember, Non Conventional. When this shearing occurs penetration increases dramatically, and in a straight line. This shearing causes "extreme" trauma to target, more so than conventional expanding bullets. In copper a shallow HP will put more mass behind the blades ensuring the shearing effect at normal velocities of 2150 fps or so. Even if they do not shear and manage to hold on, being shallow frontal area is less, penetration is still deeper than normal, and there really is not a down side either way. Lot's of trauma, lot's of damage. Then of course follow up with your BBW #13 Solid!

Oh, how about POI? Point of Impact? Well, in all cases I have worked with these sort of bullets, a lighter HP will have the exact same POI 90% of the time in my rifles here. The other 10% of the time I was introducing a different bullet design. But still more than close enough even then at DG ranges, 50 yds. What I am saying is that I don't believe POI is going to be an issue with MOST rifles. If we have a .510 caliber 570 gr BBW #13, the HP should come in at probably 540 grs. Same bearing surface, and I see very little issue getting same POI at 50 yds with the combo.

Sam sent these to start testing this week!





I have them loaded now in a 510 Wells to do the terminals. Maybe tomorrow, Tuesday at the latest.

That's the plan right now. I doubt we will be able to get the new 4 band prototypes tested until Sam returns from his elephant hunt with the 577 Nitro and BBW #13.

Michael

Michael and Sam

Count me in for solids for my Verney-Carron .500 and .577.

I will rely upon Sam's opinion of which bullet is best as he is familiar with the V-C guns.

Thanks for all the hard work guys!!

Don

It's just a matter of getting everything lined up and done exactly the way we want it. Takes a bit of time when getting things tweaked.

As we progress we will keep you posted.

Michael

Thanks again!!

Don't forget the 505!!!!

I want some solids and hp for the 470. Let me know when they are avaible.

I like the idea of running the banded bullets through a luber/sizer. Will ya'll do some more testing.


JD

Michael,

I like having a plan and it sounds like you have a solid one . Very exciting stuff, very exciting!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Michael,

I like having a plan and it sounds like you have a solid one . Very exciting stuff, very exciting!

Paul

A "Solid" plan? HEH HEH--I reckon so!

I know that Don and Paul follow along and have on the terminal thread upstairs. This weekend I was doing something with the photos, and ran across the T'Rex test of the recent CEB BBW #13s coppers. I thought I had forgot to post it on Terminals, back to page 100 I did not see it, so I posted it again. Capoward, keeps up to date, and has a great memory, I had posted it on page 97. I forgot. But he did point out I did not post it here, and that some from here on doubles might not have seen or keep up with the terminal thread upstairs. So I looked at all pages here and sure enough did not post it......Here is the same post from upstairs.

I think this test has become an important part of the test routine for me. If a bullet can pass this, then it's well on it's way to doing most anything one would encounter in the field, about as good as we can do and plan for anyway. The field always offers up unknowns, but we must do our best before getting to that point.


The Post From Terminals


In looking through some photos of bullets this morning for a post down on the lever guns I found something I don't remember posting here. The T'Rex test on the 570 CEB BBW #13 Copper Two band bullet? I went back to page 100 and did not see it anywhere. If I have posted this prior, I apologize for doing it twice. What I see in the T'Rex test of this bullet is that the nose profile is very good, it can take a beating and still maintain integrity of the nose and remain straight. Does not bend or veer at all.

When I first started doing the T'Rex test with the fiberboards, I only thought they were tough. Problem was they were not tough enough. I could not get any deformation of the bullets done in those tests. Moving to the concrete blocks business picked up. At first it was just a fun little test to do, but the further I go with it the more important I think it is to test construction of a bullet under some very hard conditions. I ask the bullet to get through two of these blocks straight, what it does after that is of little concern really. But if a solid can get through block 1 and continue straight to block #2 and pass through it straight, then by gosh that's pretty tough to do. All our good nose profile bullets we like will do this, North Fork, Barnes Banded, the CEBs and BBW#13s, the SSK Copper Solids I have used and so forth. In fact, I would not even approve that last run of CEBs before doing this to test the copper they were using. If it had been too soft, it might not have done well under extreme circumstances that one MIGHT run into in the field. Of course we know that sometimes the field can be much harder on bullets than any reasonable test we might can concoct. But we must continue to "endeavor to persevere".

I like the CEB BBW #13, the profile seems to hammer hard and maintain!








Just part of the "plan"

HEH

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
Don't forget the 505!!!!

I want some solids and hp for the 470. Let me know when they are avaible.

I like the idea of running the banded bullets through a luber/sizer. Will ya'll do some more testing.


JD

JD

Once we get things up and moving and past the test/prototype stage, then yes I think we can do some 505s without issue. I think Sam has some other calibers below 458 in mind for the double runs. While I want a 450 gr BBW #13 for my 458 B&Ms I think Sam wants a 480 for some of the doubles, and then even a 500 gr for cartridges like the Lott. So there will be other calibers than what I mentioned above.

And yes, the HPs---gotta have some of those!!!!!! Buffalo Hammers!!!!!!

Michael

20-25 sounds good to me. Now, did I understand that you are switching from 2 bands to 4? Remember make the 510 diameter first!
Peter.

Peter

Yes, we are going to try some 4 bands in the doubles. Problem has nothing to do with accuracy, or anything else besides getting a grip inside the case. After a few firings the 2 bands are slipping inside the case, regardless of how heavy the crimp is. Sam thinks the 4 bands will have more grip while the bullet is in the case, I agree. Yes, this might raise barrel strain, but to what point we don't know YET. We will test them, another step in development. The bullets I had for the bolt guns had 8 bands--dropping those to 4 bands to relieve pressures. So now, it looks like Sam and I are meeting dead in the middle at 4 bands for all. Still test work to do before the end product. But getting closer every day!

.510 570 is on top of the list when getting a run done.

Michael

Hey Josie Wales (sp?),
I have the same issue with neck tension on GSC bullets. About the only way I have successfully used them (and they are incredibly accurate) is to resize the case and forego neck expander.

Of course I don't know how this would work on the smallbores like 458 through 500.

Hey Double Guys! Got some results for you concerning the Hollow point versions of the BBW #13s. I figure you guys have to have a expanding non conventional to match up with the solid. So test work has started and looks extremely good thus far. I am assuming most of you are familiar with what we call Non Cons--Non Conventional. If not, ask me, or go weed through 103 pages upstairs on the Terminal Thread if you want, lots of talk up there about Non Cons--Once again, the bullet of the future as far as I am concerned!

Paul, I am going to make sure that in the near future you get one of these 6 bladed evil bullets in .620 caliber! RIP and I have been quoting Jose for awhile now--HEH. Some great lines in that old movie!

After I get these posts up, then I will tell you what the plan is--We have a set in Stone Plan now.

This is a repeat of the posts upstairs;

OK now, next--Sam took a few of our CEB BBW #13s-two bands, in copper and poked some holes in the end of them. Once again, we need a #13 Hollow Point to match up proper with the solids. So I think early on we have that sorted out easy!

Sam made 3 different designs, a Shallow hollow point, 6 blades, with the HP .350 or so deep. A deeper HP at about .5 inches deep, 6 blades, and a cup point. These are .510 caliber BBW #13s.

I don't have 500 Nitro, but I have 510 Wells. Loaded up 105/RL 15. I thought it should be around 2200 fps, but got some surprises, I forgot that these are the 2 band bullets and got a little more velocity than I expected. The deep HP ran 510 grs, and I think maybe a little light to match same POI with the 570 at 50 yds. The .350 HP weighed 530 grs, and I think it will match POI of the #13 Solid at 50 yds, and the cup point at 550 grs.

Here is the 510 gr HP BBW #13



The blades are longer on this bullet, hollow point deeper. The blade shear, but they continue to shear along the same wound cavity as the main slug. Typical copper Non Con. Lot's of trauma, lot's of damage. Most of the trauma inflicted has passed by the time the bullet passed the 10 inch witness cards. Good trauma at 4 inches.



I have used this sort of HP in the field a lot, excellent results, dead buffalo where they stand. Incredible penetration as you can see--32 inches for any expanding or non con bullet is amazing. The North Fork Cup Points I had done for the 50 B&M will get this far, but rarely anything else. Straight line penetration also. Keep in mind, the finest biggest fasted Swift A Frame from any 458 or 470 or anything else will go to 24-26 inches MAX, Woodleighs to 20-22 inches! This did 32 inches!

Michael

Now let's move to the Cup Point bullet. It weighed 550 grs, no blades or petals. I was a little surprised, it did not expand at all, but completely sheared off the nose where the HP was.



This shear was not a nice even shear across the top, but tapered to the rear leaving a pointy type center on the bullet. This caused it to loose stability at 18 inches veering off course to 26 inches.



It produced MASSIVE TRAUMA up front at the 4 inch witness card, about as much as I have seen. But it tapered off and was drilling a hole at 10 inches, so trauma did not last long. I think it exploded just before or right at the 4 inch card.



Sam and I think one might could take this design, undercut at the base of the HP on a 13 degree angle, when the top exploded and shears causing extreme trauma, then what comes out is a BBW #13 Solid! WOW--That would be incredible eh?

Michael

I saved what I think is best for last! The more shallow HP. This one had a .350 depth, or close. I got a big surprise, never had a copper HP do this. But this one with it's .350 hollow point sheared exactly like a brass HP would do, star pattern, 6 blades shearing off at 2-3 inches, then penetrating away from center. My theory is this, the shorter blades exploding off the main part of the bullet because of more mass behind pushing them. They are shorter, so less peeling effect, copper is more malleable than brass, so if those blades get a chance to peel, then they tend to "hang" longer instead of shearing off in a consistent manner. Now, with short blades, they do not peel, but get back to a point of breaking off quicker and moving away from center-- I think Sam found the solution! Now I get some credit, as I mentioned the shallow HP to Sam a week ago or more, but I do have to admit that my reason was to keep weight closer to the solid! HEH HEH!

I also run out of witness cards, so I had to use a laminated target I had on the range. I have to get busy and make a new bunch of witness cards. I have plenty of material, just have not had time to do so.





Trauma carried on further than the other two bullets, showing good trauma at 10 inches.

Also, notice the INCREDIBLE penetration, and it was 100% dead straight line, and nose forward in the test medium! Because the blades sheared even across, left a nice big flat surface for penetration!

These are the most incredible bullets I have ever been involved with--The Non Cons!!!!!

I see the time coming quickly, I will have no need or use of many of our wonderful conventional bullets we have worked so hard for in the past 20 years, Swift, Woodleigh, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, and even Barnes--They don't shear anymore, so they are not non cons in my opinion! The Non Cons are more effective, deeper penetration, more trauma inflicted, there just seems to be no downside to the copper and brass non cons. Yep, it's settled, anyone want some Swifts, Woodleighs, Hornady, Speer, Nosler or Barnes conventional bullets? I think I am going to have a "Bargain Basement Sale" before too long and replace everything with "Non Cons".

Michael

There is not yet a buffalo made on this planet that will carry one of these very far! Like a star burst into the organs inside, while a massive ragged nose remaining slug continues to penetrate, massive shock, awe, and trauma! Might be the best buffalo bullet ever devised by man!

Michael

This thread gets better and more interesting every day . The "big guys" in the bullet world should read this and the other bullet thread.
What could I say other than again, GREAT JOB and THANK YOU!

Paul

You are welcome, but no thanks needed. My pleasure, and I am learning too right along with everyone else. Got a call from one of our own today, and he has put everything on hold waiting for these bullets! He is so excited about them, he says why waste time with anything else! I have to agree, I am excited too.

Plan in motion. I have test prototypes arriving tomorrow in .500 caliber for my 50s. 4 band versions of #13s. I had 8 bands on the last run, I am going to see if pressure comes down. I was running this 500 gr brass #13 with 8 bands at 2180 fps in an 18 inch 50 B&M. Pressures running 67000 PSI--a touch over, but not bad. I think the 4 bands will take the pressures down below 65000 PSI and in addition maintain performance. I will be testing the 67-68% meplat and then make it final production on a couple of different .500s.

In the meantime while Sam is in the field with the 577, I have ordered a run of prototypes 4 band, .474 500 gr #13s copper--exactly like the 2 band, except 4 bands, with two bands being a little different design so as to keep pressures low, and barrel strain low. I am 99.9% sure this is going to be good and barrel strain will only increase ever so slightly, but not much. Problem is this--I have to prove it to myself before I can prove it to you! Until I am satisfied it don't go. Sam and I both are very sure we are good to go, but we want to show you a comparison, then you make your mind up! So as soon as Sam hit's the dirt back here, we will have bullets he must load and we start testing.

Now got a little surprise going on too. Taking the same BBW #13 and putting the .350 hollow point in the end! This will also be waiting for Sam when he gets back. I am hoping for a 460-470 HP and a 500 gr BBW #13 Solid to match up. We will do terminals, and shoot for POI at 50 yds with the combo, and see what happens. This puts us a long step ahead and moving forward with the HP and Solid combo.

All goes well with both of these tests, then we go into a production run and have bullets on hand for you! Several different calibers, HP and Solids.

So moving ahead!

JHC--Imagine a 850 gr or 825 gr .620 caliber HP and what that will do??

It's not a good time to be a buffalo or elephant these days! They have seen better days! HEH HEH

Michael

Hey Double Guys! Look, just posted a big post, page 103 terminals upstairs in Big Bore this morning.

Pertaining to my .500 caliber CEB BBW #13s in a 4 band version, which is what the double rifle bullets will be also only in copper. I have one bullet in brass with 4 bands that reduced pressures from the 8 band version 7000 PSI. Which is more than I expected and great. It also leads me to believe that barrel strain on the doubles will remain good with the 4 band version.

Take a peek, while all the double bullets will be copper, this will give you an idea of things to come soon.

Michael

Back from my elephant hunt in Zim. Shot a nice elephant with my 577 Verney Carron double and used a CEB BBW#13 copper solid. Took a frontal brain shot at 15 yards and bullet ended up 3 feet behind head in the skin at the top of back. Dead straight penetration and lots of tramua. Bullet had slight dent in nose.

Sam

CEB BBW#13 from frontal brain shot.

OUTSTANDING, SAM!

Big hammer on a big elephant with big results. NICE!

Could you ask any more of a bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
CEB BBW#13 from frontal brain shot.

Four full pages and here in this above post is all that counts! The proof is in the field!

Sam

Congratulations and welcome back!

Many thanks from all of us for your hard work and research!

Don,

Thanks and I was glad to be a part of all the testing. Even happier to be able to test on an elephant.

Have you gotten your 577 VC yet? I think you will love it. I sure have new respect for mine and look forward to using it a lot more in the future I hope.

Sam

I didn't read all these posts but I have a question.

The operating principle of this bullet seems identical to G.S. or North Fork solids. Perhaps you should test these against the new bullet if you have not done so. 100 year old Woodleigh/Kynoch designs prove little since it is known that North Forks beat these.

Indy

Yes, you need to go back in time and read the posts not only on this thread, but upstairs in Big Bores on the Terminal thread. There are no stones left unturned, every imaginable solid has been tested, documented, and every configuration of nose profile, meplat, radius, the works has been tested and worked with extensively.

North Fork rates at the top of the list in proper nose profiles, meplats, and radius. I am working close with North Fork on bullets in .500 caliber and .474 caliber for my B&M series cartridges in addition to the new CEB BBW #13s along with their HP companions! The North Forks also rate very well in the barrel strain tests.

Michael

Hey Mr. Michael!

Just read most of the particulars concering your bullets, great stuff!

Enjoyed meeting you at Accurate Innovations on Tuesday, and thanks for taking the time to explain what you're doing.

Hey Nemo

Good to have you! Welcome. For more good bullet stuff go upstairs to the Big Bores, go to terminal bullet performance there.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...881039441#9881039441

Michael

Great Job !!! these are the post that keep me catched on ARF. Many Thanks. G1

OK you double guys, Michael and I are going to do our maybe final tests with my 470 starting tomorrow. I have loaded lots of ammo with the new CEB BBW#13s in both solid and non con. I have loaded the following also for our tests. Control is 106 grains of IMR 4831 with a Woodleigh soft. Loaded 109 grains H4831,80 grains IMR 4895,87 grains RL-15 all with Woodleigh softs,91 grains IMR 7383 with cast bullet, also have Barnes Banded, Woodleigh Hydro and NF for T-Rex tests. If any of you have a favorite 470 load you wish to have tested I will be glad to load it and if we have time test it for you. That is if I feel your load is safe. Let me know ASAP as I will finish all my loading today.

Thanks, Sam

Looking forward to the results, Sam.

These tests will be the pressure tracings as well as penetration tests, correct?

Based on your pressure results I will try to extrapolate data from the 470 with CEB #13 vs. Woodleigh softs and BBS to the 600NE for the V-C double I will receive in the next couple of months.

Thanks Sam and Michael

CCMDoc,

Yes we will be doing all of that.

Sam

We only need to do terminals on the HPs we already have done the terminals on the solids. What we would like to look at along with the copper HPs is the T'Rex with a few different solids, and maybe a HP too! Busting blocks is pretty tough on all of them! If they bust and continue straight to accomplish the mission--that's very good, very good indeed! We will see?

However, the main point of this mission is the barrel strain so we can proceed with production to other calibers from that point. I hope to god that strain gage is still good to go?????

Michael

Good Afternoon Double Guys!

Lot's to report, and I yet do not have it all put together, especially the T'Rex terminals that Sam and I did yesterday. But I do have the barrel strain reports ready--I think!

If you have been following this thread at all, you know Sam and myself were busy yesterday doing the "barrel Strains" on the new copper 4 band .474s caliber bullets.



As suspected the barrel strains on the new 4 band bullet were well within reason, and lower than most everything on the market. We ran several tests with the 500 CEB BBW #13 and the 470 NonCon. The 500 gr CEB BBW #13 Copper came in on average 21430. With the Woodleigh SP on average of 22895. I think all of you consider that a proper bullet for doubles, so I consider that as a benchmark so to speak, and Sam agrees.

The barrel strain data sheet has grown to 2 pages now, and I apologize for that. This will be available to you via the B&M site, under Additional Research in down loadable pdf format, as soon as I can get time to add the report, hopefully this week.






I think now is the time to tell you that Sam and I have made a decision concerning the materials the bullets are made of. If you take a look at the barrel strain sheet, you will see we tested a few of these bullets made in "brass". From the first set of these tests we had a brass BBW #13 that gave even less barrel strain than the 2 band original copper #13. But was still very close. Now once again we tested a brass version, and it came in equal to, or slightly better than the copper bullet! In addition, the NonCons work much better in brass, than in copper as well. In all T'Rex tests conducted since I started doing T'Rex tests a year ago, brass solids always come out on top in that arena as well. If barrel strain remains low with these new bands, Sam and I both think that the production runs should be done in brass. Another great attribute to the brass bullet is also one that everyone can understand, it comes at a much reduced price when compared to copper!

Right now--Today--brass has EVERYTHING going for it, barrel strain, NonCon performance, tougher construction, and price to boot! There is no downside as long as barrel strain remains equal in the very near future test work, which we will be doing again within the next week or so to CONFIRM this beyond doubt.

In addition to that Sam named the new line of bullets for you guys too, along with a minor band change, a bit more spacing between the top 3 bands so you guys can crimp, and choose where you want to seat the bullet, some added versatility. The new bullets will be designated "Nitro Express" Bullets!

Sam and I have much more for you, I just have not had time to get it all put together today. We have more on the Dacron vs Foam for you, we have T'Rex terminals to post, we have the 470 NonCon we tested in copper, along with several other things that can be discussed as well. I will work on this tomorrow again for you and get it up as I can.

Posted here as well as terminals upstairs.

Michael

Michael and Sam

You guys never cease to amaze! Great work!

Daniel from Cutting Edge Bullets called me today. Great guy! Briefed me on some of your findings. I'm ready to buy and try. Throw me in!!

Hats off to y'all!!