Yeah shooting that much was getting to me. I flinched one time when trying to shoot a good group with my 577 and Michael got a good laugh but was mad that I messed up the group. I just had been battered so much that I could not get it together after that. I'm glad I'll be done with this shooting for a while. Billy the B in B&M came by while we were shooting and said the walls of the shooting range were bowing out as we fired. I guess the range got a beating also. We called it a day. These tests have really been very interesting and we see more that needs to be explored.

Sam

I had my boy Sam at 50 yds with the 577 yesterday! Boys, it was an exhausting day to say the least, tremendous amounts of data to be handled, shooting, all sorts of work involved, and at the end of the pressure traces we decided to shoot 577 Nitro. Well, we actually should have done that first thing instead of last, both of us wiped out at that point. But my boy did great regardless, I took some photos, I am going to post. Will explain them when I get them up, but I can tell you this right now--Sam can shoot the shit out of a double, and with iron sights his eyes are true, far better than I, second, there are zero issues with accuracy of the CEB BBW #13 at 50 yds even with 2 bands, which I think we are going to change to 4 bands anyway. A double rifle accuracy at 50 yds does not impress me much normally, I was very very impressed with Sams 577 Nitro, whatever the hell it is. But, I would have to have a scope on it to see proper! SORRY, I know that's is obscene, and I probably agree with you about a scope on a double, but regardless that's the only way I would have confidence in what I was doing, or seeing!

Coming soon, getting closer!

Oh I may be delayed a FEW HOURS getting this up as I have to go and have major cleanup on the range--lot's of dacron, foam, wads, cardboard all up and down the entire range, another ugly thing about doubles they are very nasty, filthy things they are blowing crap out everywhere! I never seen such a mess in all my life, and you know I have some "Obsessive Compulsive" behavior about some things!

I think that in between Sam can tell you about how good a machinist/mechanic I am too! I have little patience with things that don't work when I want them to work, and few skills on how to get them to work without a big hammer, chainsaw and maybe some vise grips! HEH HEH!

M

Now Michael, I offered to help and clean up the range! I'm sorry all that wadding made such a mess. I will say I did leave the range the dirtiest I've ever seen it. I'll bet Michael called in a crew off the job to help in the clean up.
If my eyes get worse I'll just flip up the night sight and get closer than ever put a scope on a double. BURN HIM for thinking of it!!! I'm just glad we didn't have problems with any of my doubles. Michael takes big hammers to stuff that won't fit or work. There is a brand new RCBS press in his lab that is beat to #$%^& because the shell holder wouldn't fit. Needed just a little bastard file work but now needs a new ram. Michael and tools don't mix.

Sam

I am by no means finished with this report.

However I do have this for you, later this morning I can get back to it and get more info to you, I have lot's of it as we move forward during the day.

For now, this is the jest of the entire "barrel strain" work done thus far..

I am going to be out of the office for a couple of hours. You guys can look at, discuss this, and when I return I will get back to it.

I have "domestic" chores this morning!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I am by no means finished with this report.

However I do have this for you, later this morning I can get back to it and get more info to you, I have lot's of it as we move forward during the day.

For now, this is the jest of the entire "barrel strain" work done thus far..

Michael or Sam,

Could you verify whether the 500gr Kynoch factory base load was a solid or round nose soft? Thanks.

This is the combined from last test and yesterdays, so it's the same old Kynoch FMJ.

Jim,

The original Kynoch loads were both solids.

Sam

Please note a new Data Sheet that has velocity included. I was in a big rush this morning, so omitted the velocity.

There are a couple of important things I want to point out about the data sheet we have come up with. First, this is but a small sample, and to come to "Absolute" conclusions would require much more test work than what we have done. We scratched the surface, but we gave it a good scrape in the process. Honestly it sure looks like to me, even though not extensive, there are trends in place, you decide for yourselves, you have more at stake than I do.

I don't have the double rifle experience to tell you where you should start looking, and I won't. I will tell you where I would start looking if it were me, but you must decide for yourselves.

This is all about "Safe" or presumed to be safe bullets for double rifles. I am extremely pleased with how the strain gauge 5 inches from the muzzle performed, and believe that it most certainly shed some light on a very dark and always assumed subject, without backing.

I had always heard some of you guys talk about how bad the old barnes, and other older solid monos without the bands are on barrels of doubles. Well, guess what, according to the data we have now, you were right all along! Giving the highest recorded barrel strain of any of the bullets we tested.

I like North Fork Bullets, I like the North Fork people. I am not going to lie to you, I had some concerns, I would hate like hell for North Fork to make a poor showing here. I had commented earlier that I felt like the North Fork FPS would be close to the Woodleigh SP. I think everyone considers the Woodleigh Soft a safe bullet for doubles???? If you do, then so is the North Fork FPS. It's right there with the Woodleigh Soft, both under 22000.

Another note is the Woodleigh Hydro, which I thought was proclaimed to be double safe? Maybe Not? I am not sure. But the numbers were pretty high on it too.

I am way behind guys, I have more to get posted for you, but have run out of time. I promise to get more on tomorrow morning for you. We have raised some other unexpected questions that we can consider too.

Thanks

Michael

quote:

This is the combined from last test and yesterdays, so it's the same old Kynoch FMJ.

quote:

The original Kynoch loads were both solids.

Thanks guys…brain hiccup I guess…should have remembered!

Now I don't load for a double so this is out of my area, but as I understand it's always been a standard to use Dacron in some loads to hold the powder down in place for better ignition. Of course I understand this part, and have loaded nearly all my life, I just have never bothered with the cartridges I load or have loaded.

A very interesting subject came up the other day when Sam and I were testing, he had a load with 87/RL 15, one Dacron, one Foam filler. There was a huge difference in pressures, with the same load, also in velocity. I will let you guys take it from here. I think it's something Sam and I might investigate a little further this winter or after he returns from putting a 750 gr CEB BBW #13 thru an elephant, coming up in just a couple of weeks.

You will note too that there is only one trace reading on the Dacron. During the day recoil unhooked our connection a few times, this was one of those, and we did not have another round to make up for it on this.







Boys, I tell you now, the little things one finds out when doing test work is amazing. Of course, this needs validation as the samples are too low, but it sure is an indicator that something might be going on here. Something that could raise pressures far above where you would like for them to be too! You know that there are people out there that have told me that test work of any kind is a waste of time, that you could learn nothing except by doing it in the field, nothing else was, "relevant".
I say that is a fools folly!

Michael

This one has little relevance to anything, however I wanted to show it to you for giggles. Remember just above I told you a few times during the day recoil would cause us to have a connection issue from time to time, no matter what we did, once and awhile recoil would do us in, disconnect our wire from the gauge, even taped down carefully. If you look at trace #2 you can see the exact millisecond that we lost the connection, about .7 to .8 milliseconds into the trace. Just interesting is all.

These next couple are some that I think Sam loaded for some of you guys? Not sure, so I will post the traces FYI







Michael

Well after a long day of this work, Sam decided to start busting off 577 Nitros and the new 750 gr CEB BBW #13s. I forget now exactly what we did first, whether we went to 50 yds and tested the sights that he had moved, or if we did a couple of terminals first? Either way, we probably should have done this first before all the pressure traces.

My boy Sam had a good run going on those first three rounds you see in the middle! Then I had to say something, and damn if something didn't happen to that one on the right! I did so want that #4 right dead in with those others, this is 50 yds, irons. But let me tell you, that still looks damn good to me, that's right/left X2 times! I promise now I can't do that well, I can't even see the front sight! With glasses, yep, but then I can't see the target! So I am screwed on irons these days! Sam can shoot the crap out of these guns!




Well, then I moved him to the top target, and he shot two more times, I kept my mouth shut, never said a word until after the left barrel, and then SCREAMED at him not to reload the rifle, that he was finished, do not shoot again!



Gentlemen, I present you with Sam and his 577 Nitro shooting the 750 CEB BBW #13s at 50 yds.


I am pretty sure I taught him everything "He Knows", but not quite everything "I Know"

Terminals on the bullet!

Gents, I think that is about all I have for you at this time. Soon I am going to try and get this information on the B&M website, probably under terminals, which I have a page there. I will have the trace reports loaded so that you can download them to your computer, pdf files. Also, I will break them up so that they are not too large of a download at once, part 1 part 2 something like that. Will also have the entire strain report, only one page for you there too. But give me a few days, will try and have a page done this week if I can get the time. JHC, we have a lot going on here, my wife is working on a B&M DVD for me, and I am busy giving her all sorts of info too.

Thanks, I hope this helps you guys, hope that you get something out of it.

Michael

Michael and Sam,

Thanks for all of your time, effort, and money to conduct these tests.

Excellent Info.

Mike,

Thank you for donating the NF,TB and Hydro bullets.

Sam

You guys are VERY quite down here? What's with that? Weekend? Don't care? In 24 hrs ONE double rifle guy has replied, other than Sam of course?????

I know what it is, it's because I don't have a double rifle isn't it??? You guys think I don't fit in with you proper! OK, well I have been thinking about that the last day or two, and I think I might have a solution for that, so that I might fit in a little better, and maybe I can be excepted into the Double Club?

How does this work for you?





They are .500 caliber! Now this is just a prototype, I am not finished yet. I need some more duct tape, which don't worry, I have TWO CASES, or 48 big black rolls of duct tape I can tap into to finish my double rifle project! This seems to have worked out the best so far. I trying the bolt guns, but could not figure out how to work the left side, with the bolt jammed up against the right side? I thought I could get a left hand bolt gun to replace it, but did not have one on hand. But then I am not sure I could operate it proper?

Now with this version, with 4 rds in each side, that's 8 rds total in my double rifle!!! The weight is not bad, equal to Sam's 577 Nitro!

I don't have it quite figured out just yet, and when shooting they are kinda "unstable", but I am working on it day and night!

HEH HEH

OK, just funning with you guys!

LOL

Michael

Great stuff guys. Yes and Sam sure can shoot those doubles of his!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now I don't load for a double so this is out of my area, but as I understand it's always been a standard to use Dacron in some loads to hold the powder down in place for better ignition. Of course I understand this part, and have loaded nearly all my life, I just have never bothered with the cartridges I load or have loaded.

A very interesting subject came up the other day when Sam and I were testing, he had a load with 87/RL 15, one Dacron, one Foam filler. There was a huge difference in pressures, with the same load, also in velocity. I will let you guys take it from here. I think it's something Sam and I might investigate a little further this winter or after he returns from putting a 750 gr CEB BBW #13 thru an elephant, coming up in just a couple of weeks.

You will note too that there is only one trace reading on the Dacron. During the day recoil unhooked our connection a few times, this was one of those, and we did not have another round to make up for it on this.







Boys, I tell you now, the little things one finds out when doing test work is amazing. Of course, this needs validation as the samples are too low, but it sure is an indicator that something might be going on here. Something that could raise pressures far above where you would like for them to be too! You know that there are people out there that have told me that test work of any kind is a waste of time, that you could learn nothing except by doing it in the field, nothing else was, "relevant".
I say that is a fools folly!

Michael

Michael

Your graph is saying the dacorn stuffing is a at a t1 pressure of 49000 psi and the foam at 39000 psi, I think else where you stated that the foam gave higher pressure ,I may be wrong though, please clear this up for me..

The best foam I found is the kmart floaties, the long foam rods that you give kids in the swimming pool.

I liked the graph of the imr 4895, please test some h 4895 with both foam and dacron and repeat with rl 15. I shot 20 rounds of 80 grs of h4895 this weekend with no problems. it produced very good groups to the same point of aim as rl15 useing woodlieghs sp. Useing 2 powders and both foam and dacron we will be better able to see if there is a differance between foam and dacron.

There is a white elephant in the room that no one is talking about. The barnes banded have test well, closer to woodleigh softs than the hornady's dgx. Most likey they are safe to shoot in modern guns just as barnes as stated.

I know you don't own a double , please consider your self a member of the DRSS with all benifits include. ( That means if you have 75 cents you can by a cup of coffee)

Thanks for all the testing and hard work.

JD

JD,

I'm sorry I didn't get you an 80 grain load of IMR4895. I didn't have time to work up a load and Michael had my 470 so I stuck with a load I'd knew would be OK. As for foam if you go to Lowes or Home Depot and pick up some 1/2 inch foam backer rod you will find this very easy to work with. It is used for sealing gaps in windows and concrete floors. I have used it for years in many calibers and has worked well. It was not the foam used in our tests however. A foam similar to Kynoch's was used. I plan on doing more tests and if anyone has a load they want tested I will be glad to load it up and try it if I feel it is a safe load. Any powder, any bullet, any type wad. While we have the gages hooked to the gun we might as well find out.
Safe! Remember neither I nor Michael is saying that any of the bullets or loads are safe and only giving the data we find for comparison and we are not claiming that the pressures are exact just a means to compare each different bullet. It is up to each individual to decide if a bullet or load is suited for their gun. Barnes Banded? Chamber pressures were high but barrel strain low so its your call. I wish Barnes would narrow that bottom band on all their banded bullets. I think we have proved that 2 bands is enough.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:




They are .500 caliber! Now this is just a prototype, I am not finished yet. I need some more duct tape, which don't worry, I have TWO CASES, or 48 big black rolls of duct tape I can tap into to finish my double rifle project! This seems to have worked out the best so far. I trying the bolt guns, but could not figure out how to work the left side, with the bolt jammed up against the right side? I thought I could get a left hand bolt gun to replace it, but did not have one on hand. But then I am not sure I could operate it proper?

Now with this version, with 4 rds in each side, that's 8 rds total in my double rifle!!! The weight is not bad, equal to Sam's 577 Nitro!

I don't have it quite figured out just yet, and when shooting they are kinda "unstable", but I am working on it day and night!

HEH HEH

OK, just funning with you guys!

LOL

Michael

Well Michael,

Part of the problem for me is that the "System" here wont allow photos to be posted so I have no idea what things look like. I have to go to my phone and look at the tiny screen to see photos posted on the web.

Having just done that, I have to tell you that I think you're going to run into a problem. How will you regulate the barrels if using duct tape? Besides, you're using black duct tape? EVERYONE knows the green stuff is far superior.

A far better solution is to use Elastoplast. Strong yet has enough "give" to allow insertion of a wedge between the barrels. I'd use a firewood maul. Regulation will be a piece of cake. Once you get her shootin where you want, then you can wrap the whole shebang up with 3M aluminum foil tape - strong AND will keep the evil mind-control folk from messing with your pressure tracings or bullet flight path.

just a thought ...

quote:

There is a white elephant in the room that no one is talking about. The barnes banded have test well, closer to woodleigh softs than the hornady's dgx. Most likey they are safe to shoot in modern guns just as barnes as stated.

I know you don't own a double , please consider your self a member of the DRSS with all benifits include. ( That means if you have 75 cents you can by a cup of coffee)

Thanks for all the testing and hard work.

JD

JD

And all out there reading, I am not qualified to say "what is safe-What is not Safe". My opinion is that there are so many different kinds, models, types, makes, designs of double rifles out there that there is no way to make any sort of "Blanket Statement" that would cover all the bases. What might be perfectly safe in one rifle, might blow the next one into pieces?

What I can tell you is this, the data looks viable to me. While a proper test would be a lot more volume, a lot more rounds fired, I think that what we have shows a true and clear trend. Since time, effort, volume is just not possible in this case, we will build on the data as time allows, and is required to do so. In trying to analyze what we have, it was mentioned to me, I think by Mike70560, about the pressure on the front end affecting the pressure reading on the barrel end. A valid statement. In looking hard at this I thought maybe the same thing, but if we look at the 500 Barnes RN Mono, 2177 fps, 48811 PSI Chamber and 25494 Barrel strain as compared to the North Fork at 2177 fps, 48086 PSI Chamber, and 2177 Barrel Strain, then I think what we have on barrel strain is just that, the bullet passing that point on the strain gauge. It would seem pressure on the chamber end was of little effect. I think the barrel strain is a good number to look at.

Chamber Pressures? Well, that's always a question to me, I try and compare a lot of different measurements to see if that is close. Whether that is the exact or actual pressure or not, I don't know, but velocity and case measurements, and other things seem to validate it's credibility with almost everything I have done with other cartridges and rifles. I think it's a damn good tool, exact or not, it's something that really assists me on telling what is going on during those few milliseconds. I am working right now with my own 500 MDM, 458 Super Short, and 50 B&M, and the numbers are very close to what I am measuring by other methods. It's a great tool to have in your tool pouch, and especially working with a lot of unknowns like I do. It sheds a lot of light on many areas of darkness!

JD, man thanks for inducting me into the DRSS--I feel proud to be a honorary member, benefits be damned! I promise to keep digging for answers at every opportunity and to assist my fellow shooters anyway that I might be able to! HEH



OK Paul, I think I have some answers for you on my new double rifle system. You have concerns about regulating the barrels using duct tape. No problems there, each rifle has it's own set of sights, so I just switch from one system of sights to the other is all! Don't have to be concerned about regulation at all! And I got a really good deal on the black duct tape, so now I am stuck with it for a few years! 48 Rolls! Big rolls too, not those half ass rolls!

Now I like fancy things too, so I am liking your idea about the shiny aluminum foil tape, maybe I will put that over the black duct tape? Maybe I leave a space in between, Black then Aluminum, sort of a "two tone" effect, that would be cool! And maybe keep the mind control people from messing with me at the same time? Confuse dangerous game animals too--like a zebra's stripes maybe? We might be on to something here? I must get back to the lab and investigate this further;

Michael,

Please check for differences in pressure, depth of penetration and bullet stability between all bullets and all powder types and charge weights between using black electician tape and silver duck tape.

465H&H

doc M

that is a very classy piece of kit you got going there, can i apprentice with you for a decade or so to be sure to get this right

dont worry about regulation of the barrels it is highly overrated anyways, i only do it because of the traditions involved

i know i am a bit slow and have been for the last few days as work is really getting the best of me atm. but what were the pressure of the rl-15 loads in the barrels, i just sem to stare at the pages and the answer dont jump up at me.

doc M and sam
thank you for the very nice work, it seems that the two band is all, that we really need in this game, well at least it can take us quite a bit of the way to the endzone.


best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Please check for differences in pressure, depth of penetration and bullet stability between all bullets and all powder types and charge weights between using black electician tape and silver duck tape.

465H&H

quote:

posted by peterdk
doc M

that is a very classy piece of kit you got going there, can i apprentice with you for a decade or so to be sure to get this right Smiler

dont worry about regulation of the barrels it is highly overrated anyways, i only do it because of the traditions involved Big Grin

Well boys, I am about to give up my DR project. The two together weigh 14 lbs, add 5 lbs of black duct tape, and 2 lbs of aluminum duct tape, now we are at a full 21 lbs! That's just more than I can "bear" so to speak! It was shaping up well, I have to say, but I think I just got out of control with the black duct tape maybe, I went astray I think. And Peter I had that regulation thing screwed buddy, sights on each barrel, separate! Just I was having some issues switching eyes from one to the other, could not line up the front sights, then the duct tape came loose on the right rifle, barrel swung up and hit me in the head, that sourdough front sight left a big gash in my forehead above my right eye, blood and all, could not see out of that, made me drop the left rifle on my left foot, broke my little toe, bad thing was I had a round jacked in on one side or the other, after the barrel hit me in the head I don't remember which one, it fired off in the ceiling, big gaping hole, dropping that fiberglass insulation down into my left eye and so I could not see out of that one either, now I am covered in blood and insulation, broke toe, can't see. This double rifle business is pretty tough, I am just not sure I am cut out for it?

HEH HEH!

Peter
If you are asking about "barrel Strains" with RL 15, we did not do that, all we did was chamber pressures with RL 15. Those loads were all 500 Woodleigh Softs, we already had the barrel strain, as I call it anyway.

You are welcome Peter, I am pretty proud of the work that we did. Light from darkness! We are getting there slowly but surely!

FYI and all--I intend to put this on my website for all to share too. Not there yet, but I think I have it figured out. Will let you know when I get it up, next day or so.

Probably going to make a new page to the left-- Other Test Work--or something like that, and put this in that section. Was thinking of terminals, but it might get lost in there. So a new page with other tests I think is needed.

Michael

So tell me how many milliseconds it takes the bullet to exit the barrel.

For the loads/bullets that gave the low pressures, do the higher peak pressure loads not have that great an effect upon the work (i.e., pressure times volume)? In other words, lower pressures, less work (less bullet energy).

I'm just trying to reconcile the lower pressures but having similar velocities.

Will,

I think the reason we got as high a velocity with lower pressures is because of the small amount of bearing surface. Bullet was able to engrave and build pressures to get good ignition then was able to get to full velocity without using as much energy. Energy was used to build velocity instead of being used to force bullet down barrel. Who knows but it worked out that way.

Sam

Will

For the 470 Nitro the bullet exits right around 1.5 milliseconds.

sam is correct, bearing surface giving lower pressures, and maintaining velocity.

M

I agree that part of the energy is "wasted" by engraving the bullet. I am curious why there doesn't seem to be any slippage on the front band as I see typically on North Fork bullets. Maybe it is there but I can't see it.

If there is no (or, probably little) slippage I do not see any reason to have more than the two bands, especially since the bullets appear to be stable in flight and have high penetration.

I can't explain why the 2 band bullets don't show much slippage or stripping as they enter the rifling. I guess I just got really lucky in the design. 2 bands are working really good but neck tension is a problem and the bullet require a heavy crimp to keep the bullet in the left barrel of my 577 from jumping forward during recoil. Because of this we are planning on going to 4 bands. I don't think this will hurt the performance of the bullet and will make it easier to load.

It's going to increase the resistance, for sure. Maybe make a crimping groove instead of adding full blown bands?

Good luck in any case.

quote:

You guys are VERY quite down here? What's with that? Weekend? Don't care? In 24 hrs ONE double rifle guy has replied, other than Sam of course?????

Because we are waiting for the damn bullets! Enough of this FOREPLAY! lets get down to the real thing!
Oh! And don't bother with the pipsqueak 470 bullets. Make some 510 diameter 570 grainers.
Peter.

Guys

The slippage is material related and to some degree band width related. You can (and by my tests, have to) work with less surface area when using a harder material (brass). A few may recall my first ones that only had two bands that formed a crimp groove, a base band, and one in between (for support in the case neck). That was insufficient surface area for hard copper.

Will,

I have thought of changing the crimp groove a little and I do want a straight undercut like my prototypes to give the metal a place to go to relieve pressure better. The current bullet from CEB is made the way it is to make machining easier. Still have a way to go but we are getting closer to a final design.

Sam

Hey Guys

I have the entire test loaded on a page on my B&M website, complete with pdf documents you can download.

Direct link below.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Double-Rifles.html


Just FYI

Michael

Hi Michael,
You have done some absolutely amazing work for the best of reasons - knowledge and understanding.

BTW - there is something wrong with the page you have linked to that last post - there seems to be a picture of some sort of wart or growth - looks almost lik a gun but Isee only one barrel and something sticking off to the side. Acid can take that right off ... or electrocautery ... or electroconvulsive therapy

Thanks again,