gumboot458

quote:

So , by this logic you hunt Elk with a 460 Whby and would have to use at least a 600 OK as a min. for Brown bear .. And would need wheeled artillery for Elephant .

I think you’ll find a long list of calibers and cartridges between 22 and 460-600 that work just fine on deer. Don’t overstate my position on the subject, it undermines your argument.

“The 22 caliber boys have too much emotional capital wrapped up in their justifications and arguments for the use of 22s on deer sized animals.” When you overstate my position, you show your emotions. Myself, on the other hand? I don’t feel the need to defend my choice of calibers or cartridges.

I cannot agree with this. The emotional capital is invested on both sides about equally in this argument. Its silly really. What is probably the biggest mistake is for a so called expert/experienced hunter to blather on about how you need to have a 30-06 to kill a 150 pound animal.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy P Coaltrain:
I cannot agree with this. The emotional capital is invested on both sides about equally in this argument. Its silly really. What is probably the biggest mistake is for a so called expert/experienced hunter to blather on about how you need to have a 30-06 to kill a 150 pound animal.

Jimmy,

I’m to the point that I could care less. But they keep posting! I keep responding. What’s up with that?!

We don’t need to agree with each other. If we all agreed with each other, there wouldn’t be a need for this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
...What’s up with that?!

Seems like it is because "you"(and those that agree with your brilliant thinking) are right and have triggered some portion of Logical thinking that some people have turned OFF.

quote:

We don’t need to agree with each other. If we all agreed with each other, there wouldn’t be a need for this forum.

Maybe you and I should start arguing about something to give tham(or them) a break.

1. teanscum is my "hero" because of his infinite experience and knowledge!!!
2. I can't think of one good thing Bobby Tomek's "hero" - obummer - has done.
3. Give me a can of Blue Dot(for down-loads) and a 500Nitro Express any day in a (rag) M70.
4. Giving $$$HUGE$$$ as Bonuses to the people who Bankrupt America to keep them hired, at the same place, in the same job, is simply an excellent idea.
5. I can hunt game over 50# with a 22 because I'm the greatest shot that ever lived and you are not!!!

Take your pick - Mick

My 10 year old son killed two last year with a .223 Model 7, aimed for the off shoulder and one shot was all it took for each.

Where I live the minimum for ungulates is 6mm. That settles it. You can argue all you want about the mechanical differences between 5.56 and 6.00 mm, but its kinda like a kid saying to a cop on a drinking bust, "What difference to my morality does 6 months make?"

IMO shooting whitetail with a 5.56 is an undesirable practice. The cartridge was designed as a wounding weapon. Yes, you can kill with it. But all the shot-placement and other arguments, while technically fun, are just so much rhetoric. It is not good practice.

What would I do? I bought a .243 as a varmint-to-deer rifle because its legal. That doesn't mean I should hunt deer with my .243. If I am hunting deer I should carry my .270. If I was hunting coyotes and saw my deer, I'd try if the shot looked good.

Do I need to pick just one or is this multiple choice?

Yep, the .223 is legal in WV. And I sat in the Gen'l store and listened to a green toothed old fart brag about taking his grandson hunting with one. " heh heh heh, he musta shot at 15 of them before he got one down, heh heh heh..."

Hot Core wrote:

quote:

2. I can't think of one good thing Bobby Tomek's "hero" - obummer - has done

What in hell does this have to do with the current discussion? And for one, I am not and have never been an Obama supporter, and I'll never support anyone intent on taking away my Second Amendment rights.

As is on predictable cue, if you have nothing valid to add to a discussion, you fly off on some unintelligible tangent and resort to your mindless blather -- typical 4-year-old antics which you use so often.

due to an injury (non shooting related) , this season will be a 223 heavy barreled handirifle, and 53gr tsx at 3000 fps... the gun is plenty accurate, and i will let you guys know later in the year ... i'll be shooting lefty awhile, to boot... or my 45 lc pistol!

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Do I need to pick just one or is this multiple choice?

I can't make a rhyme with "multiple choice" - but - you could pick one - for fun! As Bobby so astutely aluded to, this makes more sense than Hunting with an Inadequate cartridge.
-----

Hey jeffe, Since you are injured, how are you going to get it drug out for processing?

I had a similar thing around `90, but I could still shoot off-hand and had plenty of help for the toting.

Jeff-

That load will do just fine for you because you know how to use it. Just be sure and have the skinning knife sharpened -- and don't foget to post pictures.

Meanwile, HC is so out of touch with the .22 centerfires that he must query the board for a common sense situation: what .22 caliber bullet is least likely to ricochet, an answer that even the most inexperienced .22 centerfire users could probably answer. But yet he remains such a staunch proponent of calibers he knows so little about.

Meanwhile, his good buddy tnekkcc is still looking for that elusive -- and might I add non-existant -- Hornady GMAX. Ever find any of those, by the way?

Bobby,
thanks.. i reckon any place a bow would take em a coredrill of a TSX would do the job

i have a 4 wheeler, a rope, a skinning knife, a cooler, and if that don't work, a 1/2 cajun wife!

the critter will find its way back to my freezer, for sure

of course, a 223 in the eye or ear finshes most things nicely ... i hunt for pork chops and hams, not horns!
jeffe

Damn, I want to see one of them Texican deer with pork chops on it. Them piney rooters you folks got down there must be some aggressive breeders.

the handy rifle is really not a bad idea! I have been toting an AR rifle which is really too much and holds too many rounds (although legal where I hunt). What is the barrel twisted?

Jimmy
who is john galt?
i bought this one my kids about 17 years ago .. its the hr bull barrel... that i've since put the 45/70.. then 45/120 on... and had them do a trigger job on.. www.hr1871.com , not my kids...

i have no clue what twist.. though it shoots these very well!

a smallish pig is 120 lbs.. which is larger than a big buck, around here .. but head shots will work on those!

Over a hundred years ago the 44WCF must of looked mighty small to the men used to using 45-70 rifles or even 58 cal muzzel loaders. Some no dought were appalled at the 25-20. I would hate to clean all the deer that little round has taken.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Jeff-

That load will do just fine for you because you know how to use it. Just be sure and have the skinning knife sharpened -- and don't foget to post pictures.

Meanwile, HC is so out of touch with the .22 centerfires that he must query the board for a common sense situation: what .22 caliber bullet is least likely to ricochet, an answer that even the most inexperienced .22 centerfire users could probably answer. But yet he remains such a staunch proponent of calibers he knows so little about.

Meanwhile, his good buddy tnekkcc is still looking for that elusive -- and might I add non-existant -- Hornady GMAX. Ever find any of those, by the way?

Looks like Hotsh#t has rose from the backwoods and dropped another gem of knowledge on us. Usually what he's dropping is what it smells like.

Ole Ricochet Hotsh#t sounds like he's getting close to the edge with his pathetic ranting and raving. It's just a cover up for his lack of knowledge and EXPERIENCE in a area that he criticizes. Perhaps we could again ask if anyone is interested in a contribution to get the old boy some help .......or at least a refill on his meds.

What is becoming apparent is that ole Ricochet Hot Sh#t is so concerned about ricochets with one of the more explosive varmint bullets that his lack of knowledge is exposed, yet a lack of EXPERIENCE does not stop him from dropping those little turds of knowledge for us. What is sounds like is that he know that he can't shoot for sh#t and relies on a larger caliber to compensate for his lack of marksmanship as well as his lack of............. What he is saying is that a miss with a larger caliber might enable him to get off his ass and try and follow a blood trail to find his gut shot whitetail.

You can tell from his questions about ricochets with a TNT that he doesn't do much varmint hunting and makes you wonder how many rounds he goes through in a year. I would guess that if we were to find out the rounds that he shoots it would be less than 50 a year from the questions that he asks.

What's pathetic is he thinks he's a suppository of all knowledge and truly he is a danger to lads starting out in the hunting and reloading sports. Simply Pathetic!!!!

quote:

. Give me a can of Blue Dot(for down-loads) and a 500Nitro Express any day in a (rag) M70.

Guess this is a slam on me, and I am not even part of this argument here...

Don't miss an opportunity to kick the cat anyway, do ya?

If you are buddies with Clark....he actually likes to shoot Blue Dot quite a bit..

Ironic world we live in, isn't it?

Hey Mick, It didn't take much to get the thread in a complete Revival. Even got "my hero" showing his extensive vocabulary.

From Hotsh#t's post in the varmint hunting thread

" 2. How many shots do you take on a "typical" Varmint Hunt and what are you Hunting?
I "might" get 0-3 attempts on Strays, maybe 0-6 on G-Hogs and occasionally 1-2 12ga boxes on Crows(during the Crow Season)."

*********************************************

Johnny, I think we have an answer!!!!!!!!!!

According to the Ricochet rifleman Hot Sh#t he normally gets around 0-9 shots on his varmint hunts. (see his above quote), Wow a whole 9 shots per trip on the average,my but I'm impressed with that high volume shooting.

Seems a little slim in the EXPERIENCE area for the 22 centerfires, so maybe my estimate of 50 rounds per year may be on the high side as that would involve 5 hunts!!!!!!

Out West we shoot 150-250 rounds per hunt and seem to find something to shoot all year round with average annual rounds from 1500-2000.

Makes you wonder about his EXPERIENCE with 22 centerfires in total let alone on deer. Just quoting the old boy from the horse's...........!

Oh, but you forgot to factor in the times he shot animals from the hood of a pickup...

Here's what Hot Core wrote: "The smallest things I've Hunted with a rifle were Chipmunk with a 22Rimfire from the hood of a Jeep while slowly easing down a creek."
-----

In many locales, firing a weapon from a motorized vehicle constitutes an illegal activity.

It sure is good to see Bobby and teanscum have all the answers. They are quite a matched pair.
-----

Hey jeffe, 1/2 cajun? Aahhhh-EEEEEEE. Lived within 12 miles of Louisiana at one time. Beautiful women and outstanding music.

Hunting w a .223 is alot like hunting w a bow. You just have to be patient, and wait for the right shot.

I think these two will get the job done.

Factory loaded .223 Remington ammo. Federal 62 grain Fusion and Federal Tactical (with 55 grain TBBC).



62 grain Fusion Left and 55 grain TBBC Right.

Both have similar weight retention, penetration, and expansion. 53 and 49 grains, 45 and 43 caliber. 16-17 inches penetration. (
Excellent for a .223 bullet).



Both fired from 16 inch barrel Colt AR-15 w 1-9 twist. The TBBC is going 2925 fps. I have never chronographed the Fusion.

PS Thank you everyone for advice and loading data you have given me on the last few threads.

Andy

Andy-

Thanks for sharing those expanded bullet photos. Were these from medium or taken from game -- and what were the approximate impact velocites?

Thanks in advance!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mick, It didn't take much to get the thread in a complete Revival. Even got "my hero" showing his extensive vocabulary.

I know a few guys with attitudes like that...

either comes from trying to give up smoking...

or the wife ain't putting out any more...

or they got their hours cut on their minimum wage job...

or they haven't been attending AA regularly as of late..

kinda like the 'accusational drydrunk' rant...

not that applies here...

Andy

Anxious to hear some more details about the bullets in the photos.

Caliber?

Critters taken?

Distance?

Velocity?

This doesn't answer the original question, but I use 55 gr Sierra cup and core varmint bullets on deer, out of a 22/250AI(3,998fps) and have never had a failure, out to 440yds. Most drop on the spot, and as we all know, they don't go far with no lungs. I choose my shots and most always take a broadside lung shot.
And about the ricochet thing, i've shot a lot of .22 centerfires from .221 Fireballs to 22/250AI and about everything in between and ricochets have never been a problem. .22 centerfire bullets blow up on contact or shortly there after.
TBBC's or similar bullets might be a different story, but if you hit what you're shooting at, where is the problem?

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Jeff-

That load will do just fine for you because you know how to use it. Just be sure and have the skinning knife sharpened -- and don't foget to post pictures.

Meanwile, HC is so out of touch with the .22 centerfires that he must query the board for a common sense situation: what .22 caliber bullet is least likely to ricochet, an answer that even the most inexperienced .22 centerfire users could probably answer. But yet he remains such a staunch proponent of calibers he knows so little about.

Meanwhile, his good buddy tnekkcc is still looking for that elusive -- and might I add non-existant -- Hornady GMAX. Ever find any of those, by the way?

Looks like Hotsh#t has rose from the backwoods and dropped another gem of knowledge on us. Usually what he's dropping is what it smells like.

Ole Ricochet Hotsh#t sounds like he's getting close to the edge with his pathetic ranting and raving. It's just a cover up for his lack of knowledge and EXPERIENCE in a area that he criticizes. Perhaps we could again ask if anyone is interested in a contribution to get the old boy some help .......or at least a refill on his meds.

What is becoming apparent is that ole Ricochet Hot Sh#t is so concerned about ricochets with one of the more explosive varmint bullets that his lack of knowledge is exposed, yet a lack of EXPERIENCE does not stop him from dropping those little turds of knowledge for us. What is sounds like is that he know that he can't shoot for sh#t and relies on a larger caliber to compensate for his lack of marksmanship as well as his lack of............. What he is saying is that a miss with a larger caliber might enable him to get off his ass and try and follow a blood trail to find his gut shot whitetail.

You can tell from his questions about ricochets with a TNT that he doesn't do much varmint hunting and makes you wonder how many rounds he goes through in a year. I would guess that if we were to find out the rounds that he shoots it would be less than 50 a year from the questions that he asks.

What's pathetic is he thinks he's a suppository of all knowledge and truly he is a danger to lads starting out in the hunting and reloading sports. Simply Pathetic!!!!

You Go Boy, TEE HEE.

Stepchild

Good luck to all who are giving up smoking! Despite the wear and tear on all that you encounter you are still making the right decision!

A poor hunter with a 30-06 is not any different than a poor hunter with a .223! With the .223 however it does give the man an option to blame the caliber and save his Davey Crockett shooting reputation!

Someone posts "I pick my shots" that someone will kill with bow, or any rifle he can shoot well enough to hit with.

I could fall into this trap regards the .223 because my third cousins wife's husbands uncle had a friend whose brother once shot at a deer at 500 yards with a 223 and they simply could not find the deer or even a single drop of blood! AND he was sure that he hit it! It was right in the crosshair!!! I do know that he got rid of that silly .223 and got him a 7mm Rem Mag!

I love all the stupid people that have never used something explaining how it ain't no good.

People are idiots.

Onside shoulder of 150pound whitetail, deer was quarter slightly on. Love the sound of smacking that knuckle. 62gr TSX, full penetration.





Smallish 200 pound blacktail, 75gr Swift in the shoulder, didn't find that bullet either.



Oops, another deer going away downhill, 70gr TSX went in behind should, full spine all the way forward and exited almost perfectly between the eyes.



Another with a 62gr TSX through the shoulders, didn't find that bullet either.




If I got it I will ALWAYS aim for bone. Sorry I can't show you any recovered bullets to see if they pass the 'test' of those that have never used a 223....

quote:

IMO shooting whitetail with a 5.56 is an undesirable practice. The cartridge was designed as a wounding weapon.

While we're all splitting hairs, so were the 30-06 and 303 Brit among others. That is a function of bullet design, and switching to a more lethal projectile changes the purpose of the cartrige from wounding to killing.

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
I love all the stupid people that have never used something explaining how it ain't no good.

People are idiots.

You may think me an idiot because I haven’t shot a deer with a 22 and voice my opinion about it. That’s OK, I don’t have to shot a deer to imagine that it’s not the best choice for an all around deer rifle nor do I need to hit my thumb with a hammer to imagine that it would hurt. I don’t worry about the sportsmen and marksmen here on Accurate Reloading. I’m sure you’ll recognize the limitations of the round and hunt/shoot accordingly. I’m concerned about the real idiots that will hang on every word of the 22 caliber advocates. A lot of these people are of the mindset that if it’s good for 100 yards it’s good for 400. And that rule applies to any 224-chambered rifle no matter how broken down it is. If you’ve shot for any length of time you know of or have ran into them many times.

Let’s take a 223 Remington, topped with a 53 grain Barnes TSX FB, shot out of a 24-inch barrel (sighted in at 200 yards), and pushed at a moderate speed of 2950 fps. Once it gets to 400 yards it has dropped almost 33 inches, and is speeding along at 1400 fps, and has a whooping 230 ft-lbs of energy left. Can it kill a deer? Hell yes but you better be on target.

Let’s compare the 223 Remington to a 243 Winchester (which I have used on deer and antelope). I think most people would agree the 243 has a fairly mild recoil. Because everyone is excited about the TSX I’ll use the 85-grain TSX BT pushed a moderate speed 3000 fps out of a 24 inch barrel. Seems like the 243 has dropped 21 inches, is speeding along at 1985 fps, and has a punch of 744 ft-lbs.

If we compare those 2 rounds with what some people consider a true “classic deer round”, the 257 Roberts, with a 24” barrel, using the 100-grain TSX BT pushed at the moderate speed of 2800 fps. We see a drop of 24 inches at 400 yards, it’s still speeding along at 1490 fps, and punching away with 793 ft-lbs of energy left.



What does all this mean? It means absolutely squat! It means that I have computer programs. And it has about as much credibility as some bragger claiming that he has shot 100s of deer with a 223.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
[QUOTE]

What does all this mean? It means absolutely squat! It means that I have computer programs. And it has about as much credibility as some bragger claiming that he has shot 100s of deer with a 223.

Are you comparing computer programs to real life or suggesting that some of us are not entirely truthful? "Bragger" suggests the latter and you have nothing but the vitrol between your ears to support it.

I don't care what you shoot deer with; why do rap us for our choice?

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
I love all the stupid people that have never used something explaining how it ain't no good.

People are idiots.

You would think that they would learn....

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
[QUOTE]

What does all this mean? It means absolutely squat! It means that I have computer programs. And it has about as much credibility as some bragger claiming that he has shot 100s of deer with a 223.

Are you comparing computer programs to real life or suggesting that some of us are not entirely truthful? "Bragger" suggests the latter and you have nothing but the vitrol between your ears to support it.

I don't care what you shoot deer with; why do rap us for our choice?

You miss the points.

“I don’t worry about the sportsmen and marksmen here on Accurate Reloading. I’m sure you’ll recognize the limitations of the round and hunt/shoot accordingly. I’m concerned about the real idiots that will hang on every word of the 22 caliber advocates. A lot of these people are of the mindset that if it’s good for 100 yards it’s good for 400. And that rule applies to any 224-chambered rifle no matter how broken down it is.”

And “And it has about as much credibility as some bragger claiming that he has shot 100s of deer with a 223.” Anyone can claim to be anything they want to be on the internet. I take every ones claims with a grain of salt.

Including the computers.

OK, but folks like that are unlikely to listen to either of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
Onside shoulder of 150pound whitetail, deer was quarter slightly on. Love the sound of smacking that knuckle. 62gr TSX, full penetration.





If I got it I will ALWAYS aim for bone. Sorry I can't show you any recovered bullets to see if they pass the 'test' of those that have never used a 223....

Kool pictures, which says a lot about the effectivness of those .223 TSX. While I'm not an advocate of the use of the 223 for deer hunting, it's obvious that in the right hands they can be very effective. IMO the TSX heavy bullets takes the little cartridge out of its normal league, parting company with the explosive varmit bullets for which this cartridge finds its best use on yotes and such.

I also think a guy who hunts with a yellow rifle, well - that's special.

Just kidding. I think it looks good. Certainly different. Is that a McMillan stock? I always thought a stock color that resembled the tiger would be neat - mostly orange, with black and beige stripes.

Just for the heck, I did some analysis, for whatever it's worth. It means something to me, so I suppose that counts.

.223 62 gr TSX, zeroed at 100 yds
SD = .177, BC = .287, muzzel vel 3000 fps
Energy at 100 yds = 985 fp
Energy at 200 yds = 774 fp
Drop at 200 yds = -3.4"

6.5 Grendel 120 gr TSX, zeroed at 100 yds
SD = .246, BC = .441, muzzel vel 2500 fps
Energy at 100 yds = 1419 fp
Energy at 200 yds = 1202 fp
Drop at 200 yds = -5.0"

So, I'm sure the recoil between the two cartridges is not enough to notice. Using the little Grendle as comparison, the fp energy is 428 greater although starting 500 fps slower at the muzzel, and the drop at 200 yds. is only 1.5" more with the 6.5mm. This a reflection of the significant difference in SD and BC comparing the two bullets.

Some of you obviously have no difficulty dismissing anything which is a function of physics, but I still think the actual facts are supported both by results and physics.

To me the physics clearly show that those using the 223 are pushing the edge of the results that you expect, and often the expected results don't mesh with what the cartridge is actually capable of doing. This fact can be disguised some by limiting the range, and by using fast twist and really premium bullets like the TSX which don't blow apart. This is something only diciplined and experienced hunter can or will consistantly do.

KB