I wonder............. if we ask members that post on these boards what their PERSONAL EXPERIENCE was with.............. that we would move away from the opinions of those who consider their opinions superior to others experience and resort to name calling as in Goobers and Pitiful??????

My mistake...... I should have know that the restraint called for could not be made. I apologize.

quote:

Originally posted by bcp:
Legal in WA
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/hunter/huntregs2009.pdf

Modern Firearm Regulations

Rifles:

Big game, except cougar, must be hunted with a minimum of 24 caliber (6mm) centerfire rifle. Cougar may be hunted with 22 caliber centerfire rifle. Rimfire rifles are not legal for big game.

Handguns:

Big game, except cougar, may be hunted with handguns with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches per manufacturers specification, and fire a minimum 24 caliber centerfire cartridge. Cougar may be hunted with 22 caliber centerfire handgun. Rimfire handguns are not legal for big game.

Wow...

In past years they have always run a disclaimer that went beyond caliber and specified minimum energy requirements. (I went looking for it to refute you but couldn't find it...)

I specifically remember that I could not hunt deer with my .357 magnum, which was my excuse to buy a .44 mag. Does that mean I have to sell the 44?!

...or sell the 357 too and buy a 25ACP?!

Does Thompson offer a .25 ACP barrel for the Encore?

Make mine chrome please, with fake pearl inlaid stock.


Popping caps on da deer gangsta style!

The only problem with not using the .25ACP on larger game is the scarcity of good expanding bullets for reloading. It is difficult to determing the correct diameter to hollow point the FMJs currently available as the hole size seems to have different requirements with velocities over 3500 FPS.

My biggest problem is making a hollow point large enough for reliable expansion doesn't leave a whole lot of bullet, mostly just jacket. Of course this would tend to keep the bullet form over penetrating and going completely through a bologna sandwich. Might it still be adequate for roach control? Lousiana roaches tend to be aggressive.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Most of the time I can hit deer with my .25ACP if I can manage to stick the gun in their ear. As I get older, this becomes more difficult on running shots. So to take advantage of the long range potential of this fine round, I want to mount a scope. The scope being longer than the gun is a concern. So I have an idea floating around in my head that I want to run by you and get your thoughts. I am going to get a blank rifle stock (it is blank in that it contains no rifle---not one for shooting blank cartridges--this is the real deal). The scope will be mounted to the stock. The pistol mounted to the scope thus the pistol will be upside down with the handle pointed up. It would be difficult to impossible to operate the trigger in that configuration. So I will mount a trigger on the stock and have a rod that runs up and connects to the pistol trigger. This connection would not feel nor look right if it were a ridgid connection. So on the end of the rod I will mount this fake swollen thumb from a halloween costume. The thumb will be filled with gelatin to give it a fleshy feel. One very obvious advantage to this system will be that the magazine is pointed up and is out of the way, but could be harder to remove. I will get a spare magazine and epoxy the spare to the bottom of the magazine---bottoms to bottoms. That way in rapid fire situations I can reach up and grab ahold of the spare remove it and turn it over and keep firing. During slack period I can reload the spare while it is still in the gun. Here is where I need some technical help. Will my scope adjustments operate backwards? In other words will up be up or will it be down? If backwards where could I find backwards marked adjustments? I'd hate to shoot over the buck of a lifetime on a close 800 yard shot.

Check with Shootaway, I think he may already have one.

OK, here's this from personal experience on .25 acp with deer...enjoy...

For lack of a better available hunting partner, I once took this guy out to the farm. I didn't really know him that well, but we're about to correct that. When we get out of the truck to hunt, first thing that happens is we discover that he's forgot to bring his rifle..so we're already on a roll..

I feel sorry for him and offer him my .30-06 and the prime stand on the place. And I tell him I'll use the .357 Model 27 that I carried on hunts in those days. He says no thanks, he has another gun, and produces a pocket .25 acp. I think, oh no (well, that's not the exact word I used).

I try to talk him out of it, but he's adamant that he'll be fine and it'll take a deer..no problemo. And he insists on picking his own spot. All right, since you insist, after all, we're burnin' daylight here..

So I go way yonder and get in a stand. It's a long unproductive sit. Very windy day and they ain't moving. But, something funny. Every now and then I gradually become conscious of the fact there's this very faint noise. It sort of comes and goes from way far as the wind rises and falls.

After listening very hard for a long time I finally figure out what it is. It's a person talking.

Now here we are on a 1200 acre place with no others present. Therefore, there can only be one source. It's him. He's talking aloud and I can hear him clear across the farm.

Eventually after seeing nothing I get curious/angry and go to investigate. He's sitting out in the open on a tree stump engaged in a very loud animated political speech. And, no, there were no chairs arranged around him with an audience. No deer, coons and squirrels breathlessly listening, applauding or saluting.

Anyhow, I give it up and get myself and him back to the city...and care to guess if I ever made that mistake again??

Now, there's your .25 acp true hunting story. Feel free to connect the dots and draw the easy conclusion...

Teancum---Asking for personal experience only wouldnt help. The .223 thread did just that and lots of personal favorable experience was offered. There were lots of nay sayers and NOT ONE based it on experience.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeMichalski:
The only problem with not using the .25ACP on larger game is the scarcity of good expanding bullets for reloading. It is difficult to determing the correct diameter to hollow point the FMJs currently available as the hole size seems to have different requirements with velocities over 3500 FPS.

A bit of a warning here.....when making a hollow point for the .25 ACP one must be careful to not make it too big......as if it's too big the hole could actually be on the outside of the bullet creating a bullet of negative mass.

If this happens the recoil will force the gun foreward and pull it from your hands and might cause downrange problems.....I learned this from Hot Core!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeMichalski:
The only problem with not using the .25ACP on larger game is the scarcity of good expanding bullets for reloading. It is difficult to determing the correct diameter to hollow point the FMJs currently available as the hole size seems to have different requirements with velocities over 3500 FPS.

A bit of a warning here.....when making a hollow point for the .25 ACP one must be careful to not make it too big......as if it's too big the hole could actually be on the outside of the bullet creating a bullet of negative mass.

If this happens the recoil will force the gun foreward and pull it from your hands and might cause downrange problems.....I learned this from Hot Core!

Is that why Superman always let the bullets bounce off him but ducked when the gun came hurling at him? Negative mass bullets!

Is it legal to have this much fun?

and at Saeed's expense too!

You have to neck the 25 acp down to .177 and get the 25 gr. bullets going a really fast 1050 fps. Absolutley devastating! In fact Elmer Keith feels this is the perfect buffalo rifle to take shots with from any angle.

I think you guys have way too much spare time on your hands.

Vapodog--You might be onto something with that negative mass bullet. Wouldn't that create a vacuum? We all know a bullet doesn't expand out to the size of the exit hole. Part of this hole being so larger is the wave that is created by pressure against a liquids and not being able to compress creates a large hole for escape. Now a vacuum could be like the wake of a boat, as it passes through it makes a larger exit wound.

Greenadier---Your explanation is very good, but you bring up a probably impossible situation. That being shoot the .25ACP faster than the speed of light. With todays technology I don't think this can be done. What we need to work on is slowing down the speed of light. I think it goes too fast anyways and probably is a big factor in global warming---all the heat generated by the high speed.

25ACP? Dont need it
All I have to do is:
Put on my lead underwear
Put on impermiable suit with air supply
Put on Nomex suit over that
Then dig and enter bunker

Then hold up a large picture of my Mother in Law.
The effect is utterly horrible

John

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
A barrel 12 feet long.

For the .25ACP to achive deer hunter status it has to be able to launch a 50gr bullet as fast as the 22-250. That means it needs to increase muzzle velocity from 760fps to 3600fps, an increase of 2840fps. The fix is very simple. Let's assume we can add an extra 20fps to the muzzle velocity for each additional inch of barrel length. Then all we must do is add 142" to the length of the original 2" barrel for a total barrel length of 144", or 12 feet. Once the original barrel is removed and replaced with a new one 12 feet long we will have our .25ACP deer rifle.

Naw you don't need to go to those lengths ( )

Just use Seafires loads over Ray Atkinson's chronograph.

Vapodog, It's been too many years since high school algebra but your negative mass point needs some mathematical confirmation. Mass Times Velocity Squared I can do, but forgot how to handle the negative number. Maybe someone here can help figure out the energy calculation we're dealing with here.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
A barrel 12 feet long.

For the .25ACP to achive deer hunter status it has to be able to launch a 50gr bullet as fast as the 22-250. That means it needs to increase muzzle velocity from 760fps to 3600fps, an increase of 2840fps. The fix is very simple. Let's assume we can add an extra 20fps to the muzzle velocity for each additional inch of barrel length. Then all we must do is add 142" to the length of the original 2" barrel for a total barrel length of 144", or 12 feet. Once the original barrel is removed and replaced with a new one 12 feet long we will have our .25ACP deer rifle.

Your logic is sound, but you forgot a critical element: On a barrel of this length the small capacity of the standard case would run out of powder to burn and velocity would start to drop off. What is needed is to increase the case capacity of the .25ACP to match the 22-250. (at a minumum...)

By my rough calculations the volume of the 22-250 case is 1.021164 cubic inches. This figure is powder capacity only, I subtracted the length of the neck.

To achieve this in the .25ACP one would have to enlarge the case significantly. This new wildcat would have a rebated rim so that no modifications would be necessary to the bolt face. Keeping the same case head diameter of the parent cartridge, the case walls would be blown out sharply, with a steep shoulder angle to neck back down to .25 and still allow enough neck to properly seat bullets and keep length under max OAL for the .25ACP.

My rough calculations show that the outside case diameter would need to be around 1.022". To wring the maximum performance out of this cartridge with a 12' barrel it may be necessary to go even beyond this.

Gentlemen, I think we may be on to something here... There would be some development work to be done of course, and the steep shoulder could pose feeding and magazine capacity issues. If that proved difficult, an option could be to shoot .25 cal sabots in a 1.022" bore.

I am optimistic. Given the popularity of the super efficient and inherently accurate short fat magnums, this new cartridge just has to be a winner.

We could name our new wildcat the .25 Grenadier Improved. What do you think?

I remember a Samoan in Hawaii getting shot by the japanese drug dealer two full clips from a [stolen] Browning 25 cal and all it did was piss him off sohe took the pistol away from the dealer and hit him on the head several [?] times. The Japanese suffered more trauma than the Samoan.This I know to be true as I came in on the end of the party and saw it happen.
Aloha, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Most of the time I can hit deer with my .25ACP if I can manage to stick the gun in their ear. As I get older, this becomes more difficult on running shots.

My father is now in his eighties and hunts with a jet pack for this very reason.

What would be the advantage of AI-ing the case. A .25ACPAI. From my readings in here, merely writting AI on the side of a case will increase it's speed by several hundred feet per second.
I know it's a straight walled case but when you expand the mouth to accept all of the antimatter bullet, why not just fatten it up all the way down?

Grenadier--Your theory of negative mass and the need for speed faster than light has the wheels turning. I tried several times to turn off a light and get in bed before it goes out. Dismal results. One time it may have been a tie, but there was no witness to verify this. Then the light hit me. Then the light hit me. With a Coleman lantern you can turn one off and get in bed before it goes out. Obviously the engineers at Coleman Lantern Company have the technology to slow down light. But that creates another problem. Coleman lanterns generate a lot of heat. If all lights were slowed down to Coleman lantern speed there would be a tremendous amount of heat and would create global warming and beyond. It would get so hot the sun would only come out at night--would certainly be too hot to come out during the day. I guess the Coleman lantern technology would need to be modified--A Coleman Improved like Ackley did things. But if an Ackley Improved and a Coleman Improved that would seem too redundant.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I just read a boring thread on using .223 on deer. Everybody is in complete agreement on the subject--no controversy. I wanted to start a thread that will generate some difference of opinion and controversy---maybe even start some flames. Tell us about your experience or lack thereof of using .25ACP on deer size and larger game.

A 223 and a 25 ACP are light years apart. I know a guy that reached for a 25 ACP and it went off hitting him in the shoulder the bullet bonced back and landed in his hand. And you ask about shooting Deer with something that is so lacking in power as a 25 ACP, that is a moronic post IMHO

jwp475---You are correct---almost--shooting Der with a .25ACP would be moronic. To shoot Der with a .25ACP you'd need to make it a belted case, everybody knows that. A .25ACP Magnum if you will. As we all well know when you make something a magnum you are good to go for anything---even Der. We aren't shooting Der with a .25ACP---just deer. BTW what is a Der?

The 25ACP. is a fine deer cartidge if you limit your shot to less than 700 Yrds.

Gary Surko, interesting post.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
jwp475---You are correct---almost--shooting Der with a .25ACP would be moronic. To shoot Der with a .25ACP you'd need to make it a belted case, everybody knows that. A .25ACP Magnum if you will. As we all well know when you make something a magnum you are good to go for anything---even Der. We aren't shooting Der with a .25ACP---just deer. BTW what is a Der?

I am going for the the Flanged 25 ACP Magnum or as we double rifles shooters refer to it the "ACPM". Mine is a bespoke H & H. With North Fork Solids not even elephants are safe.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
A bit of a warning here.....when making a hollow point for the .25 ACP one must be careful to not make it too big......as if it's too big the hole could actually be on the outside of the bullet creating a bullet of negative mass.

If this happens the recoil will force the gun foreward and pull it from your hands and might cause downrange problems.....I learned this from Hot Core!

Another problem is that the negative mass of the bullet will swage the bore inwards, causing problems with conventional ammo afterwards. They have a devastating effect on vitals however, causing them to implode. I have actually found that poorly hit animals are harder to track since most of the blood goes to filling the anti-matter vacuum.

jwp475---You cheated---you went back and edited your post.

`

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
A bit of a warning here.....when making a hollow point for the .25 ACP one must be careful to not make it too big......as if it's too big the hole could actually be on the outside of the bullet creating a bullet of negative mass.

If this happens the recoil will force the gun foreward and pull it from your hands and might cause downrange problems.....I learned this from Hot Core!

Another problem is that the negative mass of the bullet will swage the bore inwards, causing problems with conventional ammo afterwards. They have a devastating effect on vitals however, causing them to implode. I have actually found that poorly hit animals are harder to track since most of the blood goes to filling the anti-matter vacuum.

I need a clarification from your above post.

Is blood flow into the anti-matter vacuum similar to Hotsh$t's "innerds shifting" phenomenon that he's referred to?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Tell us about your experience or lack thereof of using .25ACP on deer size and larger game.

I've had a lot of experience of not using a .25 ACP on deer. It's among my favorite cartridges to not use.

In my lifetime I may have killed "Many thousands" of deer by not using a .25 ACP.....I highly recommend not using it to all of you hunters out there!

As a matter of fact it's among the top calibers to not use!

Ed McGivern (sp?) on the 25 ACP.

"People shot W/this cartricge tend to become emotional & resort to violence".

Much of this discussion is bullet type. On the .223 thread there is discussion of a tumbling bullet. The goal is to open up a large wound. What does that? First off it is NOT the bullet expanding to the size of the exit wound. For example, Ive seen 6" exit holes from a 30-06, but if you took a 30 cal, lets say 150 grain bullet and a big hammer and anvil and flattened the bullet to 6", you'd have flimsy foil not capable of cutting. It would fold back to a much smaller size. One guy told me when you suture someone the needle goes in easily but when coming out the skin stretches way out and his theory was a bullet would stretch the skin way out and it pops like a balloon. If you use a fmj bullet it pencils through and does not leave a large exit hole. But it does come out, so I discount the balloon theory. An animal is 90% or so liquid. Hydraulic principle is that liquids can't be compressed. So a bullet is applying pressure against liquid and it has to escape and the strong pressure exits and causes the large hole. Next time you have a plumbing stoppage and use a plunger---use the handle end--nothing happens---that is akin to using a fmj bullet. So we want a plunger action. You know the kids dart gun that shoots the cupped rubber dart? Well attach one of those to the nose of your .25ACP and you'll have an elephant stopper. Seems anytime you gain something, you lose something. This would limit shots from the mentioned 700 yards to maybe 600 yards.

`

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The .25ACP can stop a charging elephant. Consider this, if the bullet strikes an elephant between the eyes and bounces straight back then it had to stop for an instant just before reversing course. The bullet must slow down, stop, then begin accelerating in the opposite direction. At the moment the bullet stops it is in contact with the elephant. If the elephant were moving at that moment then the bullet would be moving too. But since we know that the bullet must have stopped, and since the bullet is in contact with the elephant, then the elephant has stopped also. Therefore, the bullet stopped the elephant, if even only for just a moment.

nice try......the only way the .25 ACP will stop a charging elephant is to shoot a hole through it's credit card.....it'll stop charging immediately.

A charging elephant is a good thing if you have a dead battery.

had a 25 ACP briefly...

it was just like a 32 H & R...

it wouldn't even penetrate a metal stop sign, when a 22 Long rifle would...

I think the 25 ACP and the 32 H & R are two rounds that are wonderful at shooting someone with, if you really want to piss them off and have your ass kicked...

A sign shooter!!

think we can neck the 25acp down to .177 and use PBA pellets to both reduce felt recoil AND make it supersonic?