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1. Yes I am for real. 2. Oh wow they raise a lot of money! Perhaps they should provide the first $1,000 in trophy fees for every member, or safari butt wiping services, or legal fees for settling disputes, but alas they are conservation/(political)advocacy groups, so they should probably stick to that and let people pay their own trophy fees, wipe their own butts, and yes settle their own disputes with outfitters. If an outfitter does something illegal or against the club ethics? Ok that's a club matter. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I agree with Brett. Hell, getting SCI to investigate serious ethics complaints (for example, the outright theft that certain parties endured and the hands of Blair World Wide) is a good example. They did zero there. Why would they then involve themselves with something like this? Short answer, it ain't gonna happen. | |||
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I went to a car show awhile back where I met the owner of the local "Discount Tire" store. He told me about some Firestones that I later purchased. Turns out I don't really like them. Can I get the car show promoter to straighten this out for me and get me a new set of tires?  SCI and DSC get involved here? Nope, ain't gonna happen! Not their place anyway! | |||
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No but I will. Give me their number. Jeff | |||
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Not to get involved with all the pissin' and moaning' here but I did take note pigshit has not come on to further his original post. This tells me he is full of crap and this post will draw much positive attention to Andrew. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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pigshit comes across as an illiterate buffoon, so know surprise that he disappeared  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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More likely Andrew turned him onto that South African brandy and that shit never wears off, which could explain a lot...just sayin. George "...Africa. I love it, and there is no reason for me to explore why. She affects some people that way, and those who feel as I do need no explanation." from The Last Safari | |||
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I think it was more likely MAMPOER, it works better and the headache is bigger  Andrew how could you. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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This from a guy that admits "Despite an expensive and lengthy education I still can't spell!"  ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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... yeah but still be good to hear Andrew's version of things. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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There. Fixed it for you! Bloody Yanks never did quite achieve a proper command of the English language.   Sorry mate..... I just couldn't resist it!  | |||
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Steve, One requires a certain amount of intelligence to speak the Queen's English  | |||
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Meu amigo, your comment just made me weep with laughter! | |||
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Saeed, you just made Steve's day.  Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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I'll say he did........ I'm still chuckling about it now!  | |||
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I lived in Texas for a couple of years, and found out that Texans have a mean sense of humor. They gave me as hard a time as I gave them, and we all laughed about it. There is no bloody political correctness between us at all.  | |||
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My sixpence worth, Andrew walk away from this crock 'o crap. Flinging the brown stuff around ends up with everyone covered. Your reputation preceeds you and a ranting malcontent will not sully your proven reputation. | |||
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FWIW: Both organizations have (although infrequently) acted on such complaints before and taken action against outfitters who ripped off their clients. Unfortunately (according to several dissatisfied club members I've spoken to) its like pulling teeth to get them to act. Nobody wants the organizations to "wipe their ass", but what kind of bullshit is it when organizations as huge as these claim (as you admit) that they're "advocates for hunter", introduce and endorse outfitters to their dues paying members, yet don't sit on their asses if those members get ripped off, sometimes to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars? I've spoken to several victims, including two that I met last year at DSC (one of whom is an outfitter himself) that were ripped off and disgusted by the fact that they were given the runaround not only by the POS outfitters that took their money, but by the very organization that hosted and continued to host the unscrupulous businessmen. Another gentleman from the mid-west told me about saving up for his "once in a lifetime trip to Africa", paying for it and getting totally ripped off by an outfitter. This guy's story (and I had absolutely no reason to doubt him) was pathetic and he and his son did all they could to settle matters, but got nowhere. Unlike many here, they didn't have the money or wherewithal to obtain legal assistance. What they did expect though, was that the club (they were members of) that hosted the outfitter and proclaimed what a great business this was would at least look into the matter. They didn't and basically told the victim to piss off. Both he and the outfitter were/are members of that club and the organization couldn't/wouldn't even investigate the matter yet alone try to settle it! How can "advocate" organizations like these take dues money from its members and not even be willing to meet with them and try to settle things like this when there's a dispute? Did you know that SCI charges its members $300.00 if they want to file a complaint? Have you read DSC's "Code of Ethics" (it doesn't even mention anything about conduct by members such as theft as being a problem)? Do you even realize that DSC only accepts "good" hunting reports by members about outfitters that are members? You yourself say that if an outfitter "does something illegal or against club ethics" its a "club matter." Fine, we agree! But if that's the case, then why don't the clubs accept an active role and provide that service to their membership, instead of dissuading or ignoring complaints? When an individual or business displays their DSC or SCI credentials, it should mean something in terms of respectability. Respectability comes out of being responsible and neither of these organizations "walk the walk" as much as they "talk the talk." No one expects these organizations to "pay trophy fees" or legal expenses, but please explain to me Brett how any "club" can turn its back on unethical conduct when its reported to have occurred by one member and another member is the alleged wrongdoer? Is this how the Alaska Professional Hunters Association operates? (You and I both know that's not the case and the organization has a better reputation because of it.) When dirty laundry like this (ie: the original OP) is placed on the internet for all to see, it doesn't do hunters or sport hunting any good. When people are victimized either by theft or by having their good name or the reputation of their businesses damaged by lies its wrong too. These issues must be addressed internally and our organizations have a responsibility to do so. They should put on their "big boy pants" and do the right thing. "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." Tanzania 2012: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/8331015971 Saskatoon, Canada 2013: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4121043/m/7171030391 Las Pampas, Argentina 2014: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4107165/m/1991059791 | |||
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Pulicords There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Andrew is completely & absolutely innocent of the accusations but even if that were not the case what do you think that SCI/DSC could possibly do about the situation? They have no legal powers whatsoever & the accused doesn't attend or need to attend the conventions. I look forward to your suggestions? | |||
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Just remember, we kicked the "Queen" and her bloody subjects out of this country a couple of hundred years ago so that we can speak any bastardized version of the language we want!  Don't forget, we kicked her bloody subjects arses again in 1812 just as a refresher to those who still had a burr in their knickers over the 1770's skirmish but hadn't got it out of their system yet!  Felt sorry for the "Queen" and her bloody subjects enough in the 1940's to come save your asses from drinking warm beer and eating strudel for the rest of your days!  Cheers!  | |||
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LOL...you might want to check the history books on the war of 1812.....seems to me you had to build a new Whitehouse after that little skirmish. Good thing we really had no interest in taking over the rest of your country or you'd all be spelling colour with a "u"  | |||
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Todd Hey, there's bugger all wrong with warm beer..... A good pint of London Pride or similar sure beats the hell out of that frozen cat's piss you colonials drink! | |||
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If both parties are members of these organizations, why couldn't there be a process where a complaint could be registered with the club's ethics committee? A meeting could be facilitated during the convention week (surely three people can take a little time away from buying/selling hunts and drinking afterwards), where the two parties could make their case or defend themselves before an impartial arbitrator. I believe most disputes heard in this fashion could be settled in a proper fashion. If things couldn't be worked out, the arbitrator could pass on a formal ethics complaint for evaluation or make a decision himself as to its merits. A member found in violation of club ethical standards could be directed to make good on the loss. If they refused, it could go to an ethic committee for review and violation could be punished by terminating one's membership. Outfitters found in violation could have their memberships placed on probation/revoked etc..., banned from attending the conventions, and would have such disciplinary actions publicized. If a member failed to provide a preponderance of evidence, maybe the matter wouldn't be resolved, but (if the majority of members are reasonable people and I believe they are) most of these issues would probably be worked out at a place and time where the complaints wouldn't have to be aired publicly. Getting the two parties together face to face, with a third neutral party present would probably take care of 99% of the complaints. Beyond the benefit of working these issues out in private, is the added benefit of preventing problems like this from occurring at all or having to be dealt with in a public forum. If that isn't a "win" for all of us (vs doing this stuff on the internet), what is?  "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." Tanzania 2012: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/8331015971 Saskatoon, Canada 2013: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4121043/m/7171030391 Las Pampas, Argentina 2014: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4107165/m/1991059791 | |||
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They are talking about political advocacy. You are talking about something quite different. "Advocate for hunters" does not mean that because you're a hunter and you have a problem it's their mission to fix it. Think government affairs not personal disputes. That is their mission and well it should be. Think about how much time and money you could waste with every idiot who wanted a refund because their outfitter provided the wrong beer in camp....... Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Again IF someone is doing something illegal or unethical I think there needs to be club interest not to arbitrate as that is not their job, but to determine if the club should have future dealings with that outfitter. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Do you really think clients would want to take matters such as "the wrong beer" in camp to third parties for review? What kind of attitude does an outfitter (and I'm assuming you are one) have when he trivializes what might be years of savings lost to outright theft or having a legitimate business slimmed in public??? You don't need to read these posts daily to see some of the serious complaints aired and know there's legitimate issues involved. Ignoring them isn't good for hunters or outfitters and if I knew that an outfitter was prone to ignoring such concerns, I'd "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." Tanzania 2012: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/8331015971 Saskatoon, Canada 2013: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4121043/m/7171030391 Las Pampas, Argentina 2014: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4107165/m/1991059791 | |||
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How does the club determine if they should have future dealings with the outfitter, if they don't have a process for accepting, investigating and dealing with complaints? Providing a venue to work these matters out is an excellent means of assuring all members that they'll be treated fairly. Edited to add: What kind of confidence in an organization can one have when their club isn't willing to defend its members from wrongdoing, especially when those accused of committing the unethical or in some cases criminal acts are fellow members??? "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." Tanzania 2012: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/8331015971 Saskatoon, Canada 2013: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4121043/m/7171030391 Las Pampas, Argentina 2014: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4107165/m/1991059791 | |||
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One more post on the matter and I'm hoping to get a response from Mr. Mclaren in particular and perhaps other members would care to contribute. Mr. Mclaren: Considering the very nature of the title on this post, don't you believe this client's complaints would have been better dealt with in a confidential face to face meeting where a neutral third party could attempt to resolve matters between the two of you? Do you believe having this dispute and any of the associated comments has helped your business' reputation? If you are in the right, don't you believe a neutral third party would have set matters straight? "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." Tanzania 2012: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/8331015971 Saskatoon, Canada 2013: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4121043/m/7171030391 Las Pampas, Argentina 2014: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4107165/m/1991059791 | |||
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I doubt very much that Andrew is a member of either organisation and/or exhibits at either convention. There also hasn't been any suggestion that the OP is a member of either organisation. Then there's the fact that SCI did bugger all about OoA despite numerous complaints to the ethics ctte over a number of years so don't hold your breath on that one. If my uncle had tits, he'd be aunt. As for your post directly above this one........ Is now a good time to point out that it wasn't Andrew that started the thread & that his reply to it was to the effect that he'd have preferred to deal with it privately etc.. | |||
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Andrew did the right thing by posting here as pig shit began the public fight. If AM replied via a PM only pig shit's words would have been there for all to see. Andrew does not owe you or me a reply. He replied to pig shit and now it is pig shit's duty to reply and man up. If he will not do so he is suspect in my opinion. Cheers, Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Well Steve, I don't know whether or not one or both of these two are members of either organization, but I do know this: If either organization cared enough about its outfitters and clients to do something about these issues, more people in both camps would want to be members. Considering the millions of dollars to be made and spent in the industry of sport hunting, addressing areas of concern such as these are in the best interest of all parties. Who'd want to give up on increasing the confidence one has in the people they're doing business with, because a dependable means of dealing with bad businesses or clients would become available? Why not try to address the problem, instead of whining about it on the internet? "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." Tanzania 2012: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/8331015971 Saskatoon, Canada 2013: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4121043/m/7171030391 Las Pampas, Argentina 2014: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4107165/m/1991059791 | |||
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This isn't just about the OP or Andrew, its about a legitimate issue affecting outfitters and clients. Defining this particular dispute as a pissing match between these two individuals (regardless of who's right or wrong) ignores a greater problem that does exist and a possible means of dealing with it. If a client from Europe had complaints about how a hunt was conducted in Alaska, resolving those issues fairly is better than an internet "flame war." "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." Tanzania 2012: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/8331015971 Saskatoon, Canada 2013: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4121043/m/7171030391 Las Pampas, Argentina 2014: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4107165/m/1991059791 | |||
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Pulicords Like I said: If my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt. But he doesn't so she isn't & nothing will change that. | |||
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Steve: I prefer if the queen had balls she would be the king . | |||
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Larry I thought it more diplomatic to leave the balls to pigslayer who appears to be very eloquent in talking them! | |||
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and think you Steve for correcting my spelling. i knew i shouldn't have had that last Scotch before typing! know, no- too much for a simple colonial Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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No Problim mye freind! | |||
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Didn't say we didn't get a bloody nose or two. But we were still standing on our own lands after the war of 1812 while the Brits had to tuck tail and sail home in defeat ... again! | |||
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