I have no idea what happened here, but have a few observations.

I am a Banker, we see lots of stolen and altered items like cheques, drafts and travellers cheques that come from surprisingly legitamate sources. The rules for chargeback are very clearcut, there is not way for Llamapacker to manipoulate that process.

The other observation is why would a PH let the client leave with $26k outstanding? Clearly he has the govt to pay and hard cash is required to do that. Clearly everyone involved expected a bill of far more than $9,000 anyway. If I was a PH, I wouldn't let the hunter leave until arrangement were made, ie the money wired with confirmnation received. I would realize that once the client gets on the plane I am pooched if he chooses not to pay me, much like as a hunter once I get on the plane it is pretty hard for me to get a reverse situation rectified. Totally depends on the word of the other party.

That happens all the time.

Personally, I am over carrying large amounts of cash or signing mass numbers of travelers checks. Especially around Johannesburg. I virtually always wire the money as soon as I get home. Frequently the safari company doesn't even know the total when I leave. That was the case when I left Zim in October.

Generally, I get them to allow me to wire as soon as I get back. it probably helps that my booking agent tells them that I have done this many times before and have never stiffed anyone.

My bank has just made some changes and I can now wire from my cell if I want.

I have been following this post closely and as a previous client of Nixon's and knowing his character I have been compelled to contact him directly and get his side of the story.
This guy Phifer is dishonest.

William Phifers own words:

Clearly, the checks weren't offered in payment of trophy fees. All my payments to Nixon were made by wire transfer. Complete payment was made months ago, despite my overall unhappiness with the safari. I have NOT made payment for Dip / Pack or shipping. It is unlikely I will ever be able to take possession of these trophies, but when the investigation is complete, this issue will be revisited. I'm sorry the dip /pack company is in this position, but it is not as a result of my actions.


Nixon may or may not have made the mistake on which elephant to shoot. Only Nixon and Phifer know the truth on that. However, Phifer pulled the trigger and killed the bull. Unfortunately, it was not the big tusker. A mistake was made on identifying the correct bull out of several in the thick jess.

Nixon felt terrible about the incident and offered Phifer additional animals to shoot to compensate and rectify the situation. Nixon allowed Phifer to shoot an additional elephant, 2 buff, 1 croc and 1 leopard, 1 giraffe, and several plains game for bait. All for a reduced excellent price. A price that no outfitter could match in all of Africa.

Phifer was more than happy to pull the trigger as much as he could. He killed everything he possible could, knowingly that he would not pay the trophy fees. He was pissed about the elephant.



1. In a clever act of fraud and deception, Phifer claimed the checks were stolen. He then claimed that Nixon stole cash, laptops, and cameras. Emails produced are clear Nixon stole nothing and these items were gifts. William Phifer paid Nixon 9k in traveler checks and promised to pay the remaining balance as soon as he returned to the States. Nixon does all of his business on hand shakes and allows all of his clients to send trophy fees after the hunt. This speaks volumes of integrity by Nixon.

2. William Phifer claims he did not shoot all the animals. He has not in any of these posts clarify which animals he shot or did not shoot? He says there are inaccuracies, nothing more.

3. William Phifer claims he filed or will file a complaint with the USFWS against Nixon for Cites violations.
Phifer refuses to clarify what violations took place. This is mind-boggling since Phifer was the hunter. How can there be a cites violation without the hunter being involved?

4. William Phifer claims Nixon has not contacted him since his hunt. Emails from Nixon to Phifer speaks for themselves. Phifer has ignored all of the emails from Nixon.

5. Phifer claims he made "complete payment months ago" the exception being the dip/pack. That is a lie. Phifer paid only a deposit of a percentage of the daily rate before he left for the hunt. No one pays all of the trophy fees in advance anywhere in Africa.

If this is true, produce receipts of wiretransfer on this post. Phifer will not produce any records of complete payments, because he cannot.

Phifer knowingly accepted the terms to hunt additional animals at a reduced rate that Nixon graciously offered from his maximum yearly quota in his hunting block in order to satisfy a disgruntled client. By doing so Nixon loses additional income by future clients hunting those particular species.

If one does not pay for the animals shot, would they not be considered a poacher?

Will2Hunt,

I am always a bit leary of those who post about someone who has a lack of posts. With a whopping 13 posts, you lack credibility. Just telling you. But if you are communicating with Nixon, posting his emails would be interesting.

Nixon would do himself some good if he had internet access.

I agree Bill Phifer is "stinking" right now. And all of this posting of his name will show up soon when someone (like a student in Utah) Googles his name. I know my real name shows in these kinds of posts.

Steve, would you book Bill P on hunt with a promise to pay?

This pisses me off big time, because like Larry, my days of carrying cash are over. Wendell and Atcheson's, and I am sure Mark as well, allow you to pay when you get back.

Did Bill use a booking agent? What does that agent have to say?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

Steve, would you book Bill P on hunt with a promise to pay?

None of my comments here relate to this case.

If that's directed at me, our terms of business are 50% to confirm, the other 50% 90 days before and trophy fees etc in cash or by electronic transfer by our RB Gan whilst in camp. No exceptions unless it's a very old friend, and they would usually pay in advance anyway.

We don't accept any payment whatsoever until a contract is agreed and signed by both parties and all payment details/requirements down to the last cent, along with everything else is detailed in the contract.

However, every company has it's own policies and just because we do it one way, doesn't mean everyone does it the same way.

I do know some companies accept payment for camp fees in camp and even trophy fees after the client has gone home but that to me is taking an immense, irresponsible and needless risk.... and a risk I'm not willing to take.

What for example would happen if the client croaks on his flight home or arrives home to find his lady wife has done a bunk and cleaned out his house and bank accounts? - I've seen both of those things happen over the years.

I understand people prefer to pay when they get home and that's OK in theory but if you get a flaky client or if something like the things I've just mentioned in my last para happens, you've lost your money.

Flaky clients are rare but not so rare as they used to be. We had none for the first 20 years or so and then 3 or 4 in the next 10 years. Fortunately, we sussed them out in time and nothing was lost.... but I do know many that have not been so fortunate...... or perhaps so cautious!

I know one guy who some years ago, lost ALL camp, Govt and trophy fees for a 21 day safari simply because he trusted an 'agent' who promised to pay everything just as soon as he got home after having a successful safari.

One could also argue that you can't get out of a supermarket or a filling station owing even a cent, let alone a dollar, so why should you be able to do it with a hunting safari where you could owe anything up to US$100K or maybe even more?

Some outfits even require minimum deposits on trophy fees to be paid before the hunt.

Brett

Jim Manion's comments notwithstanding, here is what I don't get:

Suppose Bill Phifer did pay all of his bills. Why on earth would Nixon lie about it? To get more cash? Lots of people on this site have hunted with Nixon...have they complained he tried to rip them off?

If Nixon instigated this, why didn't Bill Phifer aka llamapacker bring it up right away? Or even months later? Why did it take a third party?

You can call this a kangaroo court, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to read the tea leaves.

I give all of my charitable contributions to the USO...I haven't donated to any of the fund raisers here. But I will donate to one on behalf of Nixon if we can hire legal representation for him here in the US.

Who is game?

In the meantime, I am going to go shoot some quail in the desert. It is a beautiful day.

Phifer paid the trophy fees or he did not. It is that simple.

Here are Phifer's own words:

" all of my payments to Nixon were made by wire transfer. Complete payment was made months ago, despite my overall unhappiness with the safari."



Here are the relevant points of this post:

1. Phifer cannot produce any documentation that he paid the trophy fees. Phifer states that he paid for the safari completely, but interestingly is unable to explain why the wire transfer records cannot be located.

2. Phifer gave Nixon the 9k travelers cheques as partial payment for the balance of the hunt n
and trophy fees and promised to pay the remainder of balance via wire transfer when he returned back to the States.

3. Upon his return from overseas, Phifer then reported the traveler checks stolen. Clearly an act of premeditated deception.


4. In addition to the traveler cheques stolen, Phifer claims that cash, laptops, camera and other items were stolen as well. Documented Email exchange prior to the hunt between Nixon and Phifer prove otherwise.

5. Phifer refuses to discuss " [his] overall unhappiness with the safari."


Are the members of AR and the international hunting community going to allow this type of behavior to occur and turn a blind eye? The actions of William Phifer are just what the anti-hunting organization want to use to support their position. If Willam Phifer did not pay the trophy fees, is he nothing more than a poacher?

We are professionals and sportsmen.... let us act like it. I welcome your feedback.


dale

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
OH

Do you guys really think for one minute that SSG/Nixon is running some kind of con or fraud? That he has been paid and wants more, that the TCs were stolen, not reported in here by llamapacker, etc........Give me a f...ing break?

PS: What professionals are doing their job?

No I have no reason to believe he is running a con.

What I don’t like is how everyone assumes the guy at U of Utah and llamapacker are the same guy without being sure.

While he very well may be one in the same, only having matching names would not enough for me to be sure.
.

Looking back over my life, jumping to conclusions has gotten me in more trouble than waiting for a few more facts.

quote:

Looking back over my life, jumping to conclusions has gotten me in more trouble than waiting for a few more facts.

This is the best sentence of the whole thread.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Looking back over my life, jumping to conclusions has gotten me in more trouble than waiting for a few more facts.

This is the best sentence of the whole thread.

Brett

Then why not take that advice?

Pegleg,
Whether we agree with him or not, Brett is practically the only guy that has.

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
Phifer paid the trophy fees or he did not. It is that simple.

Here are Phifer's own words:

" all of my payments to Nixon were made by wire transfer. Complete payment was made months ago, despite my overall unhappiness with the safari."



Here are the relevant points of this post:

1. Phifer cannot produce any documentation that he paid the trophy fees. Phifer states that he paid for the safari completely, but interestingly is unable to explain why the wire transfer records cannot be located.

2. Phifer gave Nixon the 9k travelers cheques as partial payment for the balance of the hunt n
and trophy fees and promised to pay the remainder of balance via wire transfer when he returned back to the States.

3. Upon his return from overseas, Phifer then reported the traveler checks stolen. Clearly an act of premeditated deception.


4. In addition to the traveler cheques stolen, Phifer claims that cash, laptops, camera and other items were stolen as well. Documented Email exchange prior to the hunt between Nixon and Phifer prove otherwise.

5. Phifer refuses to discuss " [his] overall unhappiness with the safari."


Are the members of AR and the international hunting community going to allow this type of behavior to occur and turn a blind eye? The actions of William Phifer are just what the anti-hunting organization want to use to support their position. If Willam Phifer did not pay the trophy fees, is he nothing more than a poacher?

We are professionals and sportsmen.... let us act like it. I welcome your feedback.


dale

Dale.

Quite a bit of this post went sideways when the name of the US client was not posted. Speculation and counter claims are futile in helping Nixon.

The real problem Nixon has is how to recover his money. The travelers check claims can be a criminal matter, but the majority of his claim is no doubt a civil suit. A zim national sues in a US court? Not likely.

If the roles were reversed, would any one here send a non refundable retainer to an attorney in Zim? Where there is no written contract? Without a reasonable attorney's fees provision?

The time and effort may preclude Nixon from his day in the US courts. Those who have been there can surely relate. Mr. scumbag probably knows the barriers of a court action, and is thumbing his nose at his obligations.

This coward needs to be brought to justice. The real issue is how? Lawsuit seems the only course. Is there an attorney who will take this on a contingency? If not, I will start the ball rolling and donate $500 to the SSG legal fund.

Our legal professionals should weigh in on the options,

Best of luck to Nixon

Sounds like immediate cash flow would be SSG's biggest problem. It could take quite a while to sort things out legally. Wonder if some deposits toward future hunts might not be the best help.

Duxdog said that legal action has started, right? And he is the agent/contact/liason for Nixon here.

I am a bit confused because not too long ago Bwana Bunduki posted that he was the contact for Nixon.

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
Sounds like immediate cash flow would be SSG's biggest problem. It could take quite a while to sort things out legally. Wonder if some deposits toward future hunts might not be the best help.

86:

That is what gets every business in trouble: using cash future obligations to pay for current ones.

I am with Jack; I will contribute $500 as well as long as we can get an attorney involved who will file suit.

If Bill Phifers is golden as he claims, he has nothing to worry about.

But again, why on earth would Nixon make these claims.

I love the comment from Bill about CITIES violations. What, did Nixon pull the trigger on a boatload of elephants? Why didn't we hear that on the "theoretical problem?"

The data (I will avoid the word "evidence") is not leading me to jump to conclusions. I have a conclusion. I might be wrong, but so far Bill isn't proving me to be wrong.

If an attorney picks it up, I'm in for $100.

Can we find out what legal action is being taken? I'd like to know. If none is being taken I may be in on the fund myself.

Brett

It looks like a Utah attorney is needed- any members here fit the bill?

Dan (500 grains) practices in Utah, anyone else here?

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
It looks like a Utah attorney is needed- any members here fit the bill?

Dan (500 grains) practices in Utah, anyone else here?

Dan is a patent law attorney. They don't do much else (I have a few patents).

So it's patently obvious he won't be able to do it then?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

Steve, would you book Bill P on hunt with a promise to pay?

None of my comments here relate to this case.

If that's directed at me, our terms of business are 50% to confirm, the other 50% 90 days before and trophy fees etc in cash or by electronic transfer by our RB Gan whilst in camp. No exceptions unless it's a very old friend, and they would usually pay in advance anyway.

We don't accept any payment whatsoever until a contract is agreed and signed by both parties and all payment details/requirements down to the last cent, along with everything else is detailed in the contract.

However, every company has it's own policies and just because we do it one way, doesn't mean everyone does it the same way.

I do know some companies accept payment for camp fees in camp and even trophy fees after the client has gone home but that to me is taking an immense, irresponsible and needless risk.... and a risk I'm not willing to take.

What for example would happen if the client croaks on his flight home or arrives home to find his lady wife has done a bunk and cleaned out his house and bank accounts? - I've seen both of those things happen over the years.

I understand people prefer to pay when they get home and that's OK in theory but if you get a flaky client or if something like the things I've just mentioned in my last para happens, you've lost your money.

Flaky clients are rare but not so rare as they used to be. We had none for the first 20 years or so and then 3 or 4 in the next 10 years. Fortunately, we sussed them out in time and nothing was lost.... but I do know many that have not been so fortunate...... or perhaps so cautious!

I know one guy who some years ago, lost ALL camp, Govt and trophy fees for a 21 day safari simply because he trusted an 'agent' who promised to pay everything just as soon as he got home after having a successful safari.

One could also argue that you can't get out of a supermarket or a filling station owing even a cent, let alone a dollar, so why should you be able to do it with a hunting safari where you could owe anything up to US$100K or maybe even more?

This post raise a good question.

Some outfitters cliam they keep the money in the US until after the hunt.

How can they do that when in all my experience tells me that the normal operation is just liike Steve has mentioned?

Anyone wishes to shed some light on this?

Saeed,

I think you'll find there's a lot more of 'em claim to do it, than actually do it..... esp agents.

We very rarely use agents and to be honest, I wouldn't trust one to have a contract with the client

We always want our own contract with the client direct, rather than the client has one with the agent and he has one with us.

Neither would I trust an agent to hold money for me.

There's actually a good argument for asking for a deposit on trophy fees before arrival like companies such as TGTS do.

A friend of mine has had several clients die whilst on safari over the years, and I know another guy who (many years ago) had to smuggle a dead client over the border and report him dead there, to avoid weeks of paperwork before the body could be shipped back to his widow.

If you've got an advance payment, at least you've got the money to ship him home!

Puts a whole new meaning on the expression dip & pack!

Not related to this case, but since Saeed asked-

My experience was (depending on how far out you booked) 25% on booking, another 25% 1 year out, and the last 50% owed 6 months before.

My first hunt they did not require a "Trophy Fee Deposit" although they were willing to escrow it for a fee. The second and subsequent hunts after being burned by some folks shooting up the place and subsequently stiffing them on the trophy fees (maybe a side effect of everyone now being happy with photos instead of heads) the company demanded a "reasonable expected advance of trophy fees" and would not send you without it.

I had to sign a piece of paper in Africa authorizing the release of the escrow funds to the hunt provider.

I was told that the actual daily rate, etc. was transferred about a month before I arrived, although in one case, the safari company had managed to loose the money in their accounting and was telling me that I owed them $10000 (with the TF) at the end of the hunt. Mark Young got that settled within a couple hours well before I left.

AS to getting satisfaction with trophy problems, you are at the mercy of the Safari company, but so far it seems to me like they are much more concerned about customer satisfaction here than the typical US guide is. You don't have money in the system at that point.

Apparently I don't don't post enough. Sorry AZwriter. I don't write my every thought and "feelings of the day" on Facebook either.

However, this issue / post has become personal to me. We all like to think of ourselves as sportsman and gentleman. Men of honor and men true to our word. These are the people I keep close to me and I call friends and I am sure all of you do to. As, I would like to meet all you you posting comments here.
I have hunted with Nixon. I know his family. I know his wife, his daughters, and his sons. He is a man of good character and honor. He is a man that will help those in need and is humble. He has instilled these good qualities in his children as well. He would not lieand hs is not lying here.

It is Nixon's good nature that got him into this mess. Anyone of us would only wish for such a hunt that Bill Phifer has stolen. Make no excuse, this is theft by deception and probably wire fraud. Both felonies which in my opinion should put Phifer behind bars and relieve him of all his firearms if convicted.

AR has been an exceptional resource for the sportsman. I like this forum to expose those less honorable on both sides of a contract. Technology and communications have benefited all of us. So lets keep this going until justice is served. Otherwise all of this means nothing. Sounds like Duxdog has initiated the legal process.

How do I become..."One of us"

I am not that new of a member.

Do I have to fly to Dubai and ask Saeed in person to become "one of us" ?

quote:

Originally posted by Will2Hunt:
Apparently I don't don't post enough. Sorry AZwriter. I don't write my every thought and "feelings of the day" on Facebook either.

However, this issue / post has become personal to me. We all like to think of ourselves as sportsman and gentleman. Men of honor and men true to our word. These are the people I keep close to me and I call friends and I am sure all of you do to. As, I would like to meet all you you posting comments here.
I have hunted with Nixon. I know his family. I know his wife, his daughters, and his sons. He is a man of good character and honor. He is a man that will help those in need and is humble. He has instilled these good qualities in his children as well. He would not lieand hs is not lying here.

It is Nixon's good nature that got him into this mess. Anyone of us would only wish for such a hunt that Bill Phifer has stolen. Make no excuse, this is theft by deception and probably wire fraud. Both felonies which in my opinion should put Phifer behind bars and relieve him of all his firearms if convicted.

AR has been an exceptional resource for the sportsman. I like this forum to expose those less honorable on both sides of a contract. Technology and communications have benefited all of us. So lets keep this going until justice is served. Otherwise all of this means nothing. Sounds like Duxdog has initiated the legal process.

Well said. My sentiments exactly.

Bobby, Dale, what is the next move in bringing this thief to justice?

quote:

Originally posted by Will2Hunt:
How do I become..."One of us"

I am not that new of a member.

# of posts.

Brett

quote:

Sounds like Duxdog has initiated the legal process.

Can we confirm this???? Anyone?????

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Will2Hunt:
Do I have to fly to Dubai and ask Saeed in person to become "one of us" ?

Probably the best plan. Or just make a few more comments.

quote:

Apparently I don't don't post enough. Sorry AZwriter. I don't write my every thought and "feelings of the day" on Facebook either.

Having few posts brings up suspicion of being a troll or someone directly involved in this argument coming in to "sway opinnion" as oppose to the "old AR gaurd". I don't think that's the case, but you can see where AAZW is coming from.

Brett

Thanks Brett. Falls right into my personal rules for living.

"Believe nothing and Question everything"

Would believe a politician who has held office for 30 years? An "old Guard".

One of Duxdog's posts makes reference to legal contact. Might be nice to confirm that this process is moving forward.
I plan to contact Nixon to suggest moving on his end. Notorized copies of the TC and hand writing anaylsis might even intriminate Bill Phifer on charges of forgery. Amer Express and the banking institution might have an interest in prosecuting provided the documents are reviewed by credible handwriting experts.

quote:

Originally posted by Will2Hunt:
Thanks Brett. Falls right into my personal rules for living.

"Believe nothing and Question everything"

Would believe a politician who has held office for 30 years? An "old Guard".

One of Duxdog's posts makes reference to legal contact. Might be nice to confirm that this process is moving forward.
I plan to contact Nixon to suggest moving on his end. Notorized copies of the TC and hand writing anaylsis might even intriminate Bill Phifer on charges of forgery. Amer Express and the banking institution might have an interest in prosecuting provided the documents are reviewed by credible handwriting experts.

Will2Hunt:

Please don't take it personally - I am on the same side as you here. I am just saying there have been cases of "new" posters coming to the "rescue" of their friends.

Brett said it best.

Isn't anyone going to ask how my quail hunting went yesterday?

How did the quail shooting go, have you got any pics and what shot size do you use?

I've never even seen an American quail!

Duxdog,

What is the status of "legal action"???

AAZW,

How was the quail hunting? I almost posted just to say good luck, but thought the post would be a little superfulous.

Brett

Well, I got out late. I was actually working most of the day (this is my little diversion). I got out late and decided to bring two rifles for some long range shooting.

I also decided to try calling a coyote.

While I was shooting, some numbnuts pulled behind my 4 Runner and starts blasting a saguaro cactus with me not too far from his line of fire. No backstop. Young guy (early 20s?), with a young kid. I read the guy the riot act, told him he could get a serious fine, makes us look bad, etc. We shook hands and he promised not to do it again; also said he was newly arrived from Georgia (go Bulldogs!).

After the shooting practice, I had only about an hour to spare if I wanted to squeeze in a coyote stand. Busted a covey almost right away (quail hunting in AZ is fantastic; if any of you get here drop me a line and I will show you). Birds were flying this way, then that way, I jerked my head one way, then the other, then decided to shoot, then saw an easier shot...and missed cold.

Followed up the singles, flushed one going right to left; easy shot even for me (I am not that great with a shotgun). Flushed a few more, but didn't have a good shot - they all flushed into the sun.

Called for 'yotes for 45 minutes at my secret spot, but got a no show.

Went out for coyotes again this morning. Set up four times and didn't see a damn one. Either coyotes are getting smarter or I am getting dumber. They seem to be harder to call each year.

Steve: I use 71/2 shot for quail. I have a few guns but generally hunt with a Ruger Red Label with skeet and IC chokes. After the season has been open a few weeks, I switch to Win101 with Mod/Full. It has a 30 inch barrel and points great. After the season is about 6 weeks old, I switch back to the Ruger - the quail flush wild, but you can follow up on the singles easily and they hold tight.

Gentlemen,

I have been following this thread for a week or so. I am relatively new to this forum and as such I have not achieved "one of us" status. Also, I have never hunted in Africa and probably never will. I do not know any of the parties involved in this matter but for reasons that could only be understood by me (and others like me, namely you guys), I willing to contribute $500 to the cause under the same terms and conditions as put forth by AnotherAZWriter.

I will not go back on my word so I leave it to those more familiar with this matter to PM me and tell me that my marker is due.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

Steve, would you book Bill P on hunt with a promise to pay?

None of my comments here relate to this case.

If that's directed at me, our terms of business are 50% to confirm, the other 50% 90 days before and trophy fees etc in cash or by electronic transfer by our RB Gan whilst in camp. No exceptions unless it's a very old friend, and they would usually pay in advance anyway.

We don't accept any payment whatsoever until a contract is agreed and signed by both parties and all payment details/requirements down to the last cent, along with everything else is detailed in the contract.

However, every company has it's own policies and just because we do it one way, doesn't mean everyone does it the same way.

I do know some companies accept payment for camp fees in camp and even trophy fees after the client has gone home but that to me is taking an immense, irresponsible and needless risk.... and a risk I'm not willing to take.

What for example would happen if the client croaks on his flight home or arrives home to find his lady wife has done a bunk and cleaned out his house and bank accounts? - I've seen both of those things happen over the years.

I understand people prefer to pay when they get home and that's OK in theory but if you get a flaky client or if something like the things I've just mentioned in my last para happens, you've lost your money.

Flaky clients are rare but not so rare as they used to be. We had none for the first 20 years or so and then 3 or 4 in the next 10 years. Fortunately, we sussed them out in time and nothing was lost.... but I do know many that have not been so fortunate...... or perhaps so cautious!

I know one guy who some years ago, lost ALL camp, Govt and trophy fees for a 21 day safari simply because he trusted an 'agent' who promised to pay everything just as soon as he got home after having a successful safari.

One could also argue that you can't get out of a supermarket or a filling station owing even a cent, let alone a dollar, so why should you be able to do it with a hunting safari where you could owe anything up to US$100K or maybe even more?

This post raise a good question.

Some outfitters cliam they keep the money in the US until after the hunt.

How can they do that when in all my experience tells me that the normal operation is just liike Steve has mentioned?

Anyone wishes to shed some light on this?

Saeed,

I have paid TFs after the fact when booking with Atcheson and Wendell Reich.

But having a US agent hold the money isn't foolproof, either. Just ask those who had TFs on hold with that outfit run by Russell Seele and Cy Angeloz - they went bankrupt and those who had deposits lost them all.

For those who don't know, if you give an agent money for a hunt and they go bankrupt, you are an unsecured creditor. Good luck collecting. That is why I don't do business with new outfits, whether they be agents or outfitters.

AAW is correct about the unsecured creditor comments. My girlfriend is a bankruptcy lawyer. She confirms it.

This situation may well not be as simple as suing someone in Utah. Regardless of where the culprit lives, that may not legally be the proper venue. Even if the culprit is guilty as sin, the courts may say it should be tried elsewhere as in Zimbabwe.

I have personally been on the reverse side of this. I paid an outfitter that took the money and did not conduct the hunt. This was a guy in New Zealand. I had to sue him in New Zealand. I did sue him in civil court. I also worked very hard to educate the police about this guy. It cost me a hell of a lot of money and took a lot of time. I won the civil suit. He was arrested and convicted on the criminal matter. Sounds like I won big doesn't it? I have never gotten a penny of compensation from the civil matter. He was sentenced to community service and to pay me $40 NZ a month. I have never gotten a single payment there either. The police are too busy with serious matters to take this any further.

Having said this, I think Nixon's representatives should get a lawyer and go for it. I am willing to contribute $1,000 to a legal fund subject to what AAW discussed. If Duxdog will send me a PM, I will send the check ASAP.

I hate to see the little guy get screwed. Unfortunately, the world if full of people who will every time they get a chance.