quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
JudgeG - Maybe my point is being lost in the mix of emotion over the issue. Fortunately I have never had a disaster for a client, with a hunt booked through GHR, with another outfitter, as you mention. Fact is, I too would do what it takes to make things right by the client, including financial compensation if necessary. You are right, a client is putting his trust in me too, and I take that very seriously. That's why I do as much "field research" and spend as much time hunting these places as I do. All in an attempt to offer quality hunting experiences, and try to eliminate offering hunts with suspect outfitters, or having problems that could result in issues such as you have experienced.

I will use your words specifically, "If an agent makes a representation to me that, if I book through him, I'm going to get X, Y and Z... and then sends me a disclaimer that he doesn't really mean what he said (if the hunt goes tits up) and is only a little bit responsible for his misrepresentation (intentional or not)"

First off, the disclaimer does not say or imply that I don't mean what I say. I am always in good faith giving info and making arrangements based on what I know to be true, and what I expect the outfitter to do, based on what he has told me will happen. Secondly, if in the case of Tim's hunt things went down as he says they did, and please note, I am not saying they did, I am just using this as an example. Then, that is NOT a mis-representation by the agent if one would have been used, that's an outfitter FUCK-UP, that has nothing to do with the representation of the hunt, made by the agent! So my overall point is, if something like this happens once the client arrives, and the agent is no more aware of it than than the client, and it was not any part of the representation of the hunt that the agent made, then the responsibility both ethically, and legally, should fall upon the outfitter, period!! That's all I am saying, I am saying it in more matter of fact terms, not necessarily how I would handle every situation with my own clients! Maybe I should have made that more clear in my original posting. A mis-representation by the agent would be something like booking a hunt for client with outfitter X, telling the client that he will be hunting Concession Y simply to get him to book the hunt, but the outfitter does not even offer hunts in Concession Y, nor has he ever. That's an example of mis-representation made by an agent, and he should of course be 100% responsible for compensation back to the client when it all goes wrong. Just as in your example of getting X, Y and Z, I would stand by the representations I made to you regarding the hunt, representations that we ALL thought to be accurate. But, if at the last minute the outfitter starts changing hunt dates, guides, hunt locations, etc, etc, that is in no way a mis-representation by the agent. I am still not saying that I would not stand by you as my client, and work together to make it right. I am saying that in the example of the case mentioned, that's the reason why most agents have a disclaimer saying they can only be held responsible for the compensation in which they received, and why I think filing suit against the agent would be the wrong thing to do.

Lastly, I seem to be the only one chiming in on this issue from the agent's stand-point, so perhaps I am the one who is going to catch all the flack. Maybe based on what I have said, you would choose not to book a hunt through me, that's obviously your choice. But I hope you can appreciate my honesty, the same honesty that I bring to the table every time I deal with a client or book a hunt. I always want my clients to have full-disclosure regarding everything I do, and everything I represent in a hunt. Perhaps that has something to do with why I have NEVER once to date, had an issue like you mention with a client's hunt, and I hope I never do. If some day it happens, I will consider all the facts and do everything possible to make it right to the client's satisfaction.

Let's say the first one was an "act of god" and the outfitter convinces you that it would never happen again.. yadayadayada. So you book another client and that trip gets screwed up. Who is responsible?

C'mon JudgeG

quote:

If an agent makes a representation to me that, if I book through him, I'm going to get X, Y and Z...

you are a lawyer right? Is the agent guaranteeing X,Y Z? What is X,Y Z? Are they guaranteed animals? presumably not. How about "the PH will be KKKKK". How can the agent guarantee that?
It seems to me that Aaron is hitting it exactly on the head, and if that is a surprise to some folks then presumably they are now better off! Having said that, I don't see a lot of agents queuing up to say "well that's just Aaron, we do .......". This seems to be a similar issue to some people's belief that agents have an escrow account where their money can't be touched! As Aaron said, the issue is HONESTY. He is being honest, and it seems that some folks don't like what they are hearing so they take it out on the messenger!
Peter.

John - Why would an outfitter have to convince me that an ACT OF GOD, will never happen again?? How the heck can he guarantee that? I am sure if an ACT OF GOD was to negatively effect the hunt, all parties involved, including the client, would be willing to reach an agreeable conclusion to the outcome. At least that has been my experience with similar situations as an outfitter.

In my opinion your question is impossible to answer without any facts regarding the SCREW UP! I keep saying the same thing, but it seems to be lost in everyone's own interpretation of "REPRESENTATION"! If I as an agent MIS-REPRESENT the hunt, or facts about the hunting area, etc, etc, then I am 100% responsible for that screw up. However, if everything is to be expected as I have represented it. Then the client shows up and the outfitter starts changing all the plans that we have all agreed upon, like hunting areas, guides, trophies available, etc, then shouldn't the outfitter be responsible for that?

I can't imagine any agent putting in his contract that the outfitter could at any moment CHANGE any and all plans made regarding the hunt at anytime he deems necessary, including the above mentioned examples that were agreed upon by outfitter, client and agent, prior to the hunt beginning or during the hunt. Then stating if said events happen, he the agent should be held 100% responsible for the bad actions of the outfitter??

Lastly, listed below is my response to Mr. Krause's other post under the AFRICAN HUNTING forum, asking how agent's handle the money, and if there is an advantage or dis-advantage to using one. Also lost in my opinion is why I responded to this in the first place. Which is to say that using an agent is NO MORE costly to the hunter than booking directly, and in fact can often have big advantages which are out-lined below. If a problem comes up like the one Tim dealt with, and the client has used an agent that advocates the same guidelines to a client's money as we do. Then the majority of his money would still be in the states and we could all together resolve the conflict before the client has spent all of his money, with no re-course to get it back. I never intended to imply that I or any other agent should not or would not accept responsibility for a bad hunt, and do everything possible to make it right. Rather, if the hunt is totally changed and screwed up by the outfitter once the hunter arrives, that suing the agent is an in-appropriate and un-warranted action. As an outfitter myself for 15 years, if I screwed up a hunt I would take 100% responsibility for rectifying that screw up and would not expect the agent to pony up for something that is my responsibility alone.

Gl Krause - In short, I handle it like this! I will use this as an example. If you book a hunt and send a 50% deposit lets say 9 months prior to the hunt dates. When I receive the deposit, I will retain my full commission, and forward the remainder onto the outfitter!! Remember, the hunt is not booked as far as the outfitter is concerned until he has received the deposit too! Unless the outfitter/agent have other arrangements, or a long-standing, solid relationship! But I always prefer to send the initial deposit onto the outfitter asap, it makes him feel comfortable about the booking.

Now lets say the other 50% is due 30 days prior to the hunt date! I will generally have the client send that to GHR, along with a deposit for trophy fees, plus the full expenses for air-charters, etc! Usually, and once again with a good relationship between outfitter/agent, I keep that money in the GHR account until after the hunt is over. Then the outfitter sends me an invoice to include the remaining 50%, plus trophy fees, air-charter fees, etc. I then confirm all that to be accurate with the client before sending the remainder of the money I am holding! Once all parties agree, I send the money. If you have paid a $10,000.00 trophy fee deposit and the trophy fees were only $7,000.00. I send the $7,000.00 to the outfitter and send you back $3,000.00. If you owe more, I bill you, etc. This all does several very important things. The outfitter feels comfortable that I have the money, the client feels comfortable that I have the money in the states, and lastly it eliminates the client from carrying loads of cash, travelers checks, etc. Lastly, NOW if there is a big problem or dispute, the agent and client have a great deal of the money still in the states, and do not have to relinquish it until the matter is solved satisfactorily!

So for those reasons alone, it is a very good idea to use an agent when booking your over-seas hunts!! Try doing it that way by yourself with an outfitter you do not know, or have not hunted with in the past, probably in most cases it will not work. Once all your money is gone, now you are at the mercy of the outfitter, with no other re-course or helper in your corner.

The above is just an example of how I like to do it, doesn't mean all agents should do it that way. I am sure other guys have their own way of doing it that works for them!

Aaron: Thanks for your detailed explanation.

It would be very informative if you would tell us how you would have handled the Tim Herald/Karl Stumpfe dispute had you been the agent who brokered the hunt.

I am not trying to speak for Aaron, but I don't think in that situation that he could have been held responsible. If he had money held on my behalf, it could have been returned, but that is about it. Obviously he could have tried to negotiate a settlement, but I would have never considered him or any agent responsible for that. Just my two cents that are worth way less than that!

Stonecreek - Honestly, the problem with that is I do not have all the facts and not having been involved in the hunt from the get-go, I just can't say. Tim is a friend of mine, but I do not know Karl at all. Passing judgement, or giving my two cents worth, I am not sure would be fair or professional.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Stonecreek - Honestly, the problem with that is I do not have all the facts and not having been involved in the hunt from the get-go, I just can't say. Tim is a friend of mine, but I do not know Karl at all. Passing judgement, or giving my two cents worth, I am not sure would be fair or professional.

Fine. Then please tell us how you would handle a hypothetical client-outfitter dispute. Here are the circumstances, undisputed by either party: The client bought, through you, a 10-day hunt which was specifically to be guided by the PH himself. After 5 days, the PH left the client, over the client's objections, to guide another party. He assigned another guide, who obviously had issues and unhappiness with the PH, to the abandoned client for the remainder of the hunt. What would you do; ie., what services would you render?

Stonecreek - Hypothetical questions will only result in hypothetical answers, that are based on a wide array of unknowns. A lot of what would be a satisfactory outcome would depend on the client, and what he feels is a satisfactory outcome. If the client in your scenario used an agent, who uses the same philosophy as I do when it comes to the money. Most of it would still be in the states prior to the end of the hunt and the client/agent have a greater bargaining chip. I would hope the client would call me immediately, I would then contact the outfitter and insist that he stick with the agreement he made regarding the client's hunt. If he didn't, we would resolve the problem to the satisfaction of all parties involved, and I would not arrange hunts with that outfitter anymore.

Stonecreek, why don't you address your hypothetical question to Wendell, Ray and some of the other agents who post here?
Peter.

Aaron, I just want to thank you for "manning up" here and on the post I started about booking agent deposits. I appreciate the risk you have taken to your business in order to help clear up some misconceptions. Maybe some other agents will chime in as well.

GL Krause - Honestly, I didn't see it as a risk. I was simply trying to answer your questions and try to clear some mis-conceptions regarding agents, client's money, and the role and agent has, at least from my point of view. Other agents could think and act differently, so please know I am speaking only for myself. I believe in always being honest in your dealings with the client, and I think the info I provided could only help people feel more comfortable in their future dealings with an agent. Guys like Mark Young, Dave Fulson, Wendell Reich, Adam Clements, etc, have loads of experience and represent many wonderful outfitters throughout the world. I can't see how using them for your future hunting adventures could be anything but a tremendous benefit!

Thanks,
Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

Aaron,

I appreciate your honesty and understand your position. It is well reasoned, and sound business, as well as the morally and ethically correct thing to do.

Some people have incredibly inflated opinions of what to expect from an agent. (Others have ridiculous expectations of the outfitter!) Being clear about what you can provide and the assistence you can offer is always a good idea. Even if that dispells a few myths.

Thanks for the added clarity. Every agent I have booked with has a policy (disclaimer) similar to yours.

Bill

LP, just wondering if you could illustrate what you consider ridiculous expectations of an outfitter?

A contract is a contract, no?

Here is one of those rediculous stories one hears about.

An outfitter calls a PH and asks if he has an opening in October. The PH tells him he might, send him the dates required and he will see what he can do.

Nothing is heard from that outfitter, until one afternoon, the Ph gets a call in camp from an irate client, who is sitting at the airport waiting for him!?

The PH then had to jump through hoops to get that hunter orgenized, swearing that he wil never accept any more clients from that outfitter.