As I predicted, there are now posts from satisfied clients who can't believe Tim is talking about the same Karl. This is to be expected. I am sure he has guided people and they were very happy. But not on this hunt. The fact that I have driven for five years without a crash is not a defense when I crash into the back of someone tonight.

A few things have also come up that seem odd. Karl seems to say that he warned Tim before hand that he may have to leave, and that Tim accepted this, so therefore Tim has no basis to complain.

Why is a PH putting himself or his client in this position, where he is not available?

What was Tim to do- calcualte the odds of Karl leaving (he might leave), and then decide to cancel his trip and cancel the filiming?

Or does Tim try to hope for the best and try to be reasonable. Tim chose the latter.

Then there is an escalating pattern, from what I read, of promises, representations etc. that don't work out, all to Tim's detriment.

And Tim is knocked for "not speaking up" and the like.

I think the problem Karl didn't produce on the hunt, is that Tim was too accomodating.

I am also sad to see that Tim is being attacked as a blackmailer and that there are hints from Karl that Tim has "Issues" ie Karl wrote he he could some things negative about Tim but he won't.

What is it with PHs who are only too happy to book clients, take their money, then muck up a hunt, then when the client complains, attack the client?

Going on a hunt in a foreign country is almost like staying as a guest in someone's home. You are a guest, you need to tread lightly, and yuo can't say, "I'm outta here and drive home". You are totally dependent on that PH. I believe the PH should treat the client as a guest in his home, and take care of him or her. If the client is a bad house guest, don't invite him back, but at least you are paid prices you agreed on for your efforts.

Here, Karl benefitted but Tim did not receive the deal he bargaiend for. It needs to be made right.

Litespeed...it is hard to affect the way a hunt is conducted when your PH leaves you 30% of the way through the hunt. I said it before, I believe if he had been there the whole time, the hunt would have been fine, with or without a leopard kill. I agree Karl is a capable PH.

Also - if you are thinking PH X is Farncois, Karl's normal #2 PH - it is not. Evidentially, Francois quit Karl a week before my arrival, or so I am told by karl.

Odin - PH X - is a PH - not a Big 5 PH. But in Namibia...you don't have to be a Big 5 PH to leopard hunt - so that is not really an issue. I certainly wouldn't have booked a hunt with a PH that wasn't a Big 5 PH for leopard with dogs though.

Tim H. I know that PH X is not MR Francois... I have hunted with him, and Karl did not use him for me or my clients after that. I am pretty sure of who you hunted with, but I will not put up a name here. I can tell you a short story from my own experience with him.

I attended a PG hunt with a group in 2008. PH X was helping out, and two of the group memebers where hunting with him previus to me. This was their firt time in Africa. It did not result in any trophies after 1 day hunting, and on the second day I rearanged so that I would hunt with him myself. PH X is as far as I can judge a bad hunter or PH. As a person however he is what I would call shy. For me to get this to work, that ment that I would have to be more clear to what I wanted, and (as a positive thing for me) had to "lead" him more directly into what I wanted. If I wanted to continue the stalk I did, not returning to the car as fast as HE might have wanted. We ended up with 3 very nice trophies before lunch that day. Things did not "fall into my hands", but then again I had the opportunity to "take the lead" on my own hunt.

What I am trying to say is that your PH will be as good as you let him ( to a certain level of course), and when experienced hunters blame their PH I think a little blame is on them self (myself included). This is however no excuse for braking a contract etc, but an opinion on our own resonsability to get the perfect hunt.

I don't know Tim and I don't know Karl. I have no relationship with either. I do know eyedoc and I know him well,,,,,,,, and I know he knows africa. He works hard to be able to hunt and hunts as hard as he works. If anything is not up to par he will know very quickly. A ten safari veteran will be hard to BS, period. One hunter gets a bad hunt,,, things can go horribly wrong,, two in a row will be too much of a pattern to ignore.
I am sorry Tim you had a bad experience,,, you can't buy back time on vacation or time with family or friends. A bad trip like that is our worst nightmare as hunters., Trips like this is why I watch the reports on AR, to learn from others experience.
If Karl signed on to Tim's PH till he got his leopard,,,,,,,enough said if he left the camp.

When the cameras are rolling,,,,,,,whether ESPN, Outdoor Network,,,etc....you better produce......or be a really good camp host

I suppose I will just ask the question, is Kjetil PHx?

josh

quote:

Originally posted by drwes:

If Karl signed on to Tim's PH till he got his leopard,,,,,,,enough said if he left the camp.

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by CharlesL:
A bit off topic, but this is exactly the type of thing that I was afraid would happen in this economy. I want that huge discount, but don't want the quality to change. Well there just isn't those kind of margins to cut and keep the quality. Trust me I am hearing everyday from my customers. They are demanding the same quality, more attention, and deep discounts.

Not off topic at all.

Litespeed...I don't know who you are thinking of, but PH x told me, he had not worked much for karl, and usually just on the leopard hunts as he was the dog man. Now that is what I was told...so you may know better, I don't know?

I will say this, PH X worked his tail off for us. He wasn't shy, was willing to get out and hoof it to try to change tactics from simply driving, and I really felt for him. I won't take a shot just because someone tells me to, and I like to be part of he stalk decisions/game plans, but I am not a "my way or no way" guy. I figure I have been on enough hunts around the world to have a valid opinion, but I am not overbaring on a guide/ph. So maybe you know PH x and maybe not, but I don't fault him.

And Josh, nope, I don't know the guy Kjetil. I told him I wouldn't involve his name as he know karl would come down on him, so I won't say any more about PH x's identity, but he isn't anyone that has been mentioned.

drwes - as far as "When the cameras are rolling,,,,,,,whether ESPN, Outdoor Network,,,etc....you better produce......or be a really good camp host"- NOT really. We certainly hope someone produces, but as long as an honest effort is given and we have a legit chance at our game, we are good. We all go on unsuccesful hunts, and that is part of hunting. Whether with a camera, or on your own, anyone should get the hunt they pay for and agree to with a PH or guide.

I believe Tim got screwed.At the price of an african safari,it should not be a hit or miss thing.The safari company should always deliver or not book and if it does go bad,refund immediately.

I am sorry Tim.... My point is,, if you are willing to film and promote any outfitter,, you should expect a fair deal..especially if he knows that is part of the deal. if you think you got a fair deal, I apologize and will slink back into cyberspace and shut up.. you posted ,,, we jumped into the fray..no offense to anyone intended....
you signed on to have him for the PH the lenght of the leopard hunt,, he didn't deliver??? Isn't that why you posted......

Was there an agent involved in this?

If this was an expense account hunt (done on behalf of ESPN), why wasn't this all arranged and handle via an agent who would be on the hook in the US over this type of screw up.

You pay no more for an agent and I would imagine there are host of agents who would want the publicity of the good hunt on TV.

Just curious...

drwes - I wasn't being criical. Just saying that we don't expect 100% kill, just because we have a camera along. I agree with your point.

Dogcat...no agent, and the $ was out of my pocket - not an expense account. I went straight without an agent because karl and I had been talking for 1.5-2 years. I didn't feel an agent was warranted, though I definitely use agents at times and know thier value. I wouldn't consider an agent responsible for this experience even if I had of used one.

Got it, thanks.

What a mess, hope you can get this sorted to some level of satisfaction.

I have only been to Namibia once and the places we were seemed to be packed with game. It is hard for me to imagine just shooting one springbok on a 10 day hunt. Where was the game?

On my one hunt in Namibia I had a change in PH because of some Spanish clients taking up the time of the PH I was supposed to hunt with. I was quite satisfied with the replacement PH and had a wonderful time. I feel bad for Tim that his did not work out.

I do know that in my hunting time I have had 2 hunts go bad. Before I left on both of these bad hunts I was told something would be done to make it up to me. On both hunts things were put right for me such that I would recomend both outfitters to others and have hunted with both outfitters again myself.

So in cases like this I always wonder how things get to this point.

Karl did try to cancel a hunt 2 days before it was to occur and that is not correct. It also appears Karl did break the contract by not being the PH himself and by not making a substitution that met the clients needs.

I also think Karl should have got with Tim and worked out something before Tim went home. Then we would not have to hear about bad experiences such as this.

BigB

Luckily, in this case there was a videographer, I'm sure Tim can post some video to back up his assertions. Especially a PH admitting to a camera crew that he jacklights 80-90% of his leopards.

John

Seems like this happens in Namibia.

As I read between the lines on conversations you had with Karl and the ones I had with my Namibian PH a pattern seems to crop up.

These guys get hunters in country then negotiate with farmers for hunters to shoot a big ram or a big sable that just happens to be at the farmers watering hole (or did the farmer pick it up at a local auction). Then they negotiate a price with the hunter (at increased rates of course). If you don't play along they lose interest in you and focus on other clients.

"Hey this really big (you name the animal) just happens to be at Farmer Smiths watering hole the last couple of days. Must have come in from (you name the park). Want a go at it? I need to know right now because if not my other hunters will probably jump at it."

Smells like a lot of put and take hunts happen in Namibia to me. If you want wild go elsewhere.

John

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I believe Tim got screwed.At the price of an african safari,it should not be a hit or miss thing.The safari company should always deliver or not book and if it does go bad,refund immediately.

i can't believe it but for once, i agree with shootaway!!!!!!!!!

Tim

I have read all your comments on PH x, and although I can blame him for a lot (and yes, he is the same one that has hunted with litespeed, just again showing you how he has lied), I take full responsibility that your hunt was a cluster F...
I do however not take any responsibility for you trying to pin illigal activities on me.

Thus, I would like to offer you publicly the following (permits permitting for 2010 or 2011):

10 day hunting by one client (yourself, or you can send someone), and one observer for leopard and plains game (ZERO COST TO YOU FOR ANY DAYFEES). (extra days at prevailing dayfees at the time.)
If you want to use dogs (laws permitting, as I have a feeling MET might ban hounds in the future), 50% off my normal dog handlers fee (NO, it will definately not be PH x).
Trophy fee of leopard 50% off my list price.
Trophy fee of any plainsgame shot 33% off kudu, oryx, springbok, eland, zebra, blesbok, hartebeest, warthog, steenbok, duiker.

I have had enough of the false accusations though

quote:

I am also sad to see that Tim is being attacked as a blackmailer and that there are hints from Karl that Tim has "Issues" ie Karl wrote he he could some things negative about Tim but he won't.

What is it with PHs who are only too happy to book clients, take their money, then muck up a hunt, then when the client complains, attack the client?

404, you are again stirring the wrong pot.
All of us have our little flaws, Tim and me included. I did not hint that I will let Tim's flaws shine through, I merely said that I have chosen not to go the route of mudslinging. I must say that I would rather have mr. Herald back as a happy client than slinging mud.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl S:
Tim

I have read all your comments on PH x, and although I can blame him for a lot (and yes, he is the same one that has hunted with litespeed, just again showing you how he has lied), I take full responsibility that your hunt was a cluster F...
I do however not take any responsibility for you trying to pin illigal activities on me.

Thus, I would like to offer you publicly the following (permits permitting for 2010 or 2011):

10 day hunting by one client (yourself, or you can send someone), and one observer for leopard and plains game (ZERO COST TO YOU FOR ANY DAYFEES). (extra days at prevailing dayfees at the time.)
If you want to use dogs (laws permitting, as I have a feeling MET might ban hounds in the future), 50% off my normal dog handlers fee (NO, it will definately not be PH x).
Trophy fee of leopard 50% off my list price.
Trophy fee of any plainsgame shot 33% off kudu, oryx, springbok, eland, zebra, blesbok, hartebeest, warthog, steenbok, duiker.

I have had enough of the false accusations though[/QUOTE

Tim and Karl:

I will gladly "use" Karl's offer if you don't wish to do so and will (as Karl indicated possible) transfer it to me.

Tim:

As a disclaimer, I have met Karl and he seemed to be a great guy. I have talked to many folks who have hunted with him and they universally seemed to have had great experiences.

Of course, I was not there with you, Karl (and PH X), but I've been totally screwed up safaris. I grinned and bore it and ended up with a "re-try" with the same P.H. on his buck, like Karl is offering (if no animals taken?).

The second trip was just about perfect and I've gone on safari with the P.H. twice since.

My suggestion is to take a great big breath, calm down (your anger may be righteous, but is controlling now) and go back with Karl. You both are probably good men. Start over....

Or, should I make reservations to Namibia???

Karl,

So that would be roughly

$2250 for the dogs...
$2000 for a leopard if killed...
$800 for a kudu
$450 for a gemsbok
$250 for a springbok
$800 for a Zebra
$1250 for an eland

$7500 approx total - plus travel, etc. So I am supposed to put another $10,000 into a hunt to make up for a total mess of a trip? I will have to pass. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Doesn't seem like much of an offer...

This all being said - it is obvious you are not going to refund my money from this trip. But what about the $700 I over paid in trophy fees? The contract shows I paid you $4000. $3000 toward leopard package if no cat is killed. I shot the $300 springbok, so there is $700 leftover in "trophy fees" that you owe me- even if you are not refunding $ for , in your words, the "cluster F..." of a trip. Again, this is all stated in the contract.

In my opinion the only way to come close to make this right is to refund all I paid you. We dumped a lot of money into this mess that we will never get back- so we were hurt financially. If you refund the full amount, you will obviously be hurt some financially (about 1/3 of what we would be) and that only seems fair as you are ultimately responsible. I can never get that 2 weeks for Africa back, time away from family, etc.

No mudslinging here...just telling you my honest thoughts on your offer and outcome of the situation.

Judge,

Karl was a great guy and fun when he was in camp with us. I have said that from the start.

My anger isn't controlling me at all. In fact I am not mad. I would like the situation rectified, but I am a realist and expect nothing in reality at this point.

If anyone looks up all my past posts, I am not one of the guys who likes to get into arguing here, I don't get into the controversial posts and state my opinions, etc. I am pretty laid back and figure to each his own. This whole thing is very atypical of me. Sure, I have been on bad hunts, and let them go - it is part of it, but nothing like this.

I took many deep breathes before the initial post. I had it written for 24 hours before I ever posted it. So this isn't a knee jerk reaction.

I think what I have asked for in retrobution is fair - all involved lose financially (some more than others- me). I just could not chance going back and doing it again. Plus...as Karl stated, seems like a lot of PH's in Namibia think dog hunting for if not all leopard hunting period will be shut down for 2010.

Judge G - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall inherit the hunt!

Tim- Is Mike able to follow this? Am guessing he is in Windhoek and that his hunt starts tomorrow. Am hoping for the best.

This sad tale has thrown lots of mud on a plains game safari destination that is THE BEST, dollar for dollar, in Africa. If you are a casual reader here, I urge you to search these hunt reports and get a sense of what Namibia hunting is all about. Great folks and great wildlife on fantastically managed properties.

Best of luck in resolving this -if such a thing is even possible.

Wow what a bad deal for Tim.

With Leopard closed in Namibia where did PH X get a Leopard permit for Tim or did they just use Karl's while he was not in camp or hunting, is that legal??? Was there a permit for PH X to hunt PG with Tim??? What would've happened if they did shoot the cat would Karl then claim he was present and pose for the picture?

If this other PH Francois did not work for Karl anymore why was he on this hunt "We hunted for one week with Francois Marais and then we camped for one week in areas south and southwest of Windhoek. The hunting was arranged by Karl Stumpfe (Ndumo Hunting Safaris)(later I mentioned that I would like to hunt a few days while there)" July 5-18 bang over Tim's dates???? http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/9851035311

Because the Russians paid more they get preference?? Is it all about the money the more you are prepared to pay the better the service. What Tim forked out for this hunt is not small change.

What happend to the contracted refund if no cat was shot??

This guy makes Boet Nel look like a puppy. Thanks for posting Tim.

Not trying to pick a fight with you Tim, but as far as I can see you will not have to pay more than 2250 USD + airfares if your second hunt with Karl screws up again. If you do pay more, that means you will go home with a lot of nice trophies to a very good price!

Why don`t you sell the package for 5550,- USD(3300,-USD + 2250,- USD) + trophy fees to someone, and you will get your $$ back, at the same time as someone gets a nice priced Leopard hunt?!

Regarding those folks who are back-slapping Karl because they had good hunts with him:

I'm sure quite a few of Bernie Madoff's customers still say, "He did right by me," not willing to believe others have taken it on the chin.

No wonder greed is one of the 7 deadly sins.

Litespeed,

Not trying to argue either, but there is no way to know if leopard and especially leopard with dogs will even be open in 2010 or 2011. Along the same lines, how would I ever explain selling someone a hunt like this and my reason behind it? Who would want to buy a replacement hunt from a guy who just had a terrible experience with the outfitter?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Regarding those folks who are back-slapping I'm sure quite a few of Bernie Madoff's customers still say, "He did right by me," not willing to believe others have taken it on the chin.

If 99.9% of Madoff's customers were still happy and there was only one valid complaint of losing money, maybe Bernie wouldn't be in the slam.

I do agree that it only takes one kid to shit in the swimming pool to ruin it for all (and I'm not saying that Tim or Karl was the pooper).

I just hope these folks will work it out. One screwed up safari shouldn't ruin a P.H.'s business and one public discourse by a prehaps rightfully disgruntled hunter shouldn't paint him a sorehead and unfair besmircher (if that's a word and if you feel that you must take sides).

And, I'll still take the slot!

At the end of the day on this, it appears that what was promised was not delivered - end of story. The deal got rearranged due to greed or poor planning or poor business practices. To take Russians hunting instead of someone who had a great deal of potential influence for future business (TV exposure) seems downright ignorant. When the cancellation offered was made, it should have been followed by a full refund of all money paid and the price of air tickets as it was due to the ineptness of the operator.

Reschedule at a better time and go again without all of this drama and reputation damage could have been done at the time but not now. I would not hunt with Karl at this point based on what is being told and admitted.

Solution now? Refund or suffer enormous reputation damage.

Karl – When first setup, you obviously envisioned the hunt as a marketing tool...provide a heavily discounted leopard/plainsgame hunt and get widespread exposure on a major US television network (ESPN Outdoors). It must have seemed like a great idea at the time. Yet, you tried to cancel it days out, and seemingly put very little effort into it once it began. I would think that if your company was going to be promoted to millions of viewers, you would have put your best foot forward.

So my question is, do you feel that Tim “oversold” the media coverage in any way? Or perhaps you decided that this type of advertsing was no longer necessary?

Tim:

I've read this whole thread with interest and I'm really sorry you had such a poor experience. I'm currently on a laptop which is not my favorite form of computing, so I don't want to go back and read the fine points of your posts but, if I'm reading correctly, if you receive $3700 refund then you will consider this as a done deal, if not a totally satisfactory hunt? If that is not correct, then what MONETARY figure are you looking for that will bring you a feeling of reasonable closure to this episode, given your statements that you will not hunt with Karl S (whom I don't know) again?

Karl:

I am glad to see what I consider to be a generous offer to have Tim back for another shot at a leopard. Personally, I would not return and hunt with an operator with whom I'd had a previous problem hunt (and it appears that Tim will not return either), but what I will remember from all of this is that you have made an effort to extend the olive branch. That says alot.

The entire hunt sounds like a horror story for both the hunter and the PH.

The bottom line to me, however, is that the PH is in the service business; seems to have gotten himself overbooked; promised that, overbooked or not, he would stay with the hunter until he got his Leopard or time was up, whichever came first; then broke his word and left his hunter with someone else.

Other details of this story vary in accord with the perspective of the story teller -- but none of that matters. What's important here is that Karl promised to stay with Tim until he was successful, then broke his word. That's all I have to hear to know who turned this hunt into a disaster.

Does that mean that Karl is a bad man; a bad PH; or a poor businessman. Not to me -- it means that Karl screwed up big time and owes Tim something for the trouble he caused -- maybe what he owes is an apology; maybe it's a little humility; maybe it's money -- it's not my call. But, he did screw up in the most basic way -- he admits to that -- and his reputation with me (for whatever that's worth) depends on him trying to make things right for the guy that was the victim of Karl's mistake in judgement.

I feel bad for all involved. For someone like myself who is an 'african hunting trip virgin' it is quite informative. I am of mixed feelings of how I would cope in this situation if abandoned to a 3rd party when the contract says otherwise. The idea of driving around the property and not hunting hard would really rub me the wrong way too. I am thinking the whole trip was a washout. Perhaps, thought should be given to doing an ESPN show on what can happen on a hunt. It would be very educational for people like myself (as is this forum--thanks saeed!). I guess specific names of hunters could be left out, but I'm not positive I would if it happened to me. I can't say that I would be happy with the offered rehunt either. Looks like I would still be out airfare, my time (twice)and the worry of if it would be as bad the next time. AS the one putting on the hunt (KarlS), I would have done whatever was needed before this post appeared. The old saw in my business is "a happy customer tells a freind or two about your great service, an Unhappy customer tells everyone they know and whoever else will listen". I don't know Karl or anything about his business. Some folks have talked favorably about him and I believe them. However, the fact that I'm a newbie and it looks to me like there is the possibility he plays favorites, is enough to remove his business from consideration in my book. As the average joe who saves for 3 to 4 years for as nice a guided hunt as I can afford, I'm not taking the chance he will have more "Russian Hunters" the week I come to camp. Not a judgement on who is right or wrong here --- just a statement of my unwillingness for any percieved risk on my part. So, in my book, the lack of properly servicing an unhappy customer who has a legitimate grievence has cost Karl the opportunity for consideration of his services in my book, as I do not want the risk of this occurance no matter how small the chance if I can help it. There are too many operators who step to the plate and service the customer properly. Just my view from the sideline.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Karl:

I am glad to see what I consider to be a honest offer to have Tim back for another shot at a leopard. Personally, I would not return and hunt with an operator with whom I'd had a previous problem hunt (and it appears that Tim will not return either), but what I will remember from all of this is that you have made an effort to extend the olive branch. That says alot.

Yes it does seem like an honest offer. There was never any such offer made by Adam Clements when to myself or my friend when our 2007 Buffalo hunt went terribly wrong. It was due to theft in camp and much less than quality hunting area and PH as sold to us. We just got treated worse by him after we got home.

There were many guys who defended Adam but several hunters came out who had similar bad experiences such as Dick and I had. So far no one else has come out with another bad situation with Karl. I do understand that on an individual basis some things can go wrong but I do not think Karl has a history of giving poor service. I do not know Karl at all but he has made an honest effort publicly to possibly rectify the problems which occured in his camp. Adam Clements never made any effort such as this.

Gatogordo - I think $4000 US is what I am entitled to. Yes, I shot a $300 springbok, but with 2 sets of airfare, cameraman costs, and other incidental costs that were paid for and basically lost, I think I should get the whole sum paid to Karl back.

I would consider it case closed, but in no way a satisfactory hunt. The only way it would all even out would be the $4000, plus reimbersemenmt for 2 airfares, etc. I know that isn't realistic...but I think karl refunding the $4000 would show he tried to make up for the mess and is at least trying to do the right thing.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
Perhaps, thought should be given to doing an ESPN show on what can happen on a hunt. It would be very educational for people like myself (as is this forum--.

Interesting idea.....a few hundred thousand U.S. hunters seeing how a hunt can go wrong- would be helpful to show potential hunters that one needs to be careful when hunting Africa.....Tim, are you thinking of this?

Guys that concept would make a good show - and very informative. It would never make the air. Producers or networks would pull it, and I do not own the shows. One thing to consider...that show would go to 90 million households and not just in the US...it would paint hunting in general in a bad light. With all the treehuggers and antis out there, we don't need to publicize any negatives to the general public or give them ammunition to use against us. (hope that doesn't sound hypocritical after my post here, but I consider this a group of hunters though public, and it sure doesn't go into homes like ESPN would.)

Tim, hasn't Karl sort of done that with his offer, by allowing you to transfer it to anyone? Judge G has offered, twice, to purchase Karl's offer from you, and he certainly would be doing so with 'both eyes open' since he's been participating in this discussion.

I think that sometimes, one has to swallow his pride and make the best of a bad situation. I have no dog in this fight, and I don't know either of you, but you've made your thoughts, and point, perfectly clear and I think that most people agree with you. Karl seems to have crafted a solution that would allow you to get your money back (which is what you say you want), though not directly from him in the form of a check, but the money coming to you would result in the same bank deposit either way. If Judge G, or whoever wants to step up, wants to take your place and Karl is OK with it, why not just make the best of a bad situation and put this thing behind you? Do you want your money back, or do you want to make sure that getting it back is as painful for Karl as possible? I'm only an observer in this debate, as are nearly all others, but if it were me I'd take the deal as long as I had a pre-arranged buyer for the hunt and I'd move on.