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| Very Critical Hunt Report from My Leopard Hunt with AR's own Karl S. | Login/Join |
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Good luck working this out- it mught have been easier if President Obama had invited youto the White House for a beer together! | |||
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Let me understand this, Tim has paid $6,000 for a Springbok hunt and everyone is lauding the fact that "they worked it out"? Written contracts obviously don't mean a thing, because the screwer can ignore it, and then "make an offer" which must be taken because the screwee has no other choices. Sorry Karl, not my cup of tea. Tim should get a refund of the $4000 and he will still be out airfare etc. What do the AR sages who have touted the necessity of written contracts say about all this? Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Well, though the pooch was definitely screwed, I guess at least Karl S is attempting to make amends. I had ZERO correspondence from the PH on my hunt, and Gracy Travel thought a refund of a single day's camp fees was more than enough compensation for their part of the fiasco. http://forums.accuratereloadin...=256106479#256106479 But then, I'm not a TV hunt personality.  No offense to Tim Herald. It's always best to use all the leverage that you've got.  | |||
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Geez, I just don't get it here and am I the only one??? If I was the contracted the AFRICAN OUTFITTER/PH, as a businessman I would be demonstrating my INTEGRITY and REPUTATION by paying Tim his deposit of $4000 plus give him his Springbok trophy fee, plus do a shoulder-mount for him from a Taxidermist of his choice, plus ship it to him for free, and cover at least his airfare alone, fully knowing that he has already incurred the loss in the expenses of his camera man's airfare and wages/fees and took months and possible years off his life by all the preparation, emotion, and hype of having the Leopard Hunt of a lifetime fall to smithereens..... That's how I would ESTABLISH my credibility in all the aftermath!!! Anything less than this would be absurd IMHO... I've really loss alot of respect and credibility that I once had for this SPORT and INDUSTRY to see this type of outcome and resolution!!!! Wow...I just can't FATHOM this and probably never will...IMO and according to my ethics and morals and standards,... this far from fits the bill......  Has this WORLD sunken this low?????  Where is our integrity in the matter? Am I that old-fashioned....geez, I'm a mere small-time kid here at 47 yrs old amongst you geezers of prominence!!!!!!!! What has this world come to that a man can't get a FAIR shake in life!!!!!!!! Or is this the NORM and the RUDE A-SHAKENING of the century in which we live in.... This is SAD...Downright ASHAMED to even want to be a part of anything associated with it!!! When we are forced to accept anything less than what is CORRECT and PROPER!!!!!! Have FUN folks I'm outta here....Because now a precedence has been set by one we have ESTEEMED so highly here on the forum....It only goes downhill from here....Have at it gang.... Sayonaras....  The MAJORITY here have NO VOICE of REASON....It saddens me to see this here and how everything has transpired amongst individuals who call themselves MEN and some quite pompous indeed!!!!! If you guys are COOL with it....GREAT!!!!! I know I ain't!!!!!! The water is much TOO SHALLOW for me here!!! | |||
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For every client to PH (or outfitter) conflict that we have seen on AR over the years have we ever seen one worked out so quickly between the two involved parties? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Quitter......this how you handle things in the real world? At least there is discourse and a solid attempt at resolution. Why the huge chip? | |||
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Agreed!!! Now what are the chances people will let sleeping dogs lie?? My guess is Monday morning quarterbacks for the next 10 pages!!  Perhaps we can restrain ourselves.Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Tim First a question, was this your first hunt with Karl? I think I remember you asking me for a reference some time - a couple of years ago or more? Now I don't know the circumstances of this hunt except what has been written on this thread. But a few comments. 1. Many people seem to have made a judgement very early on in the thread. Before even Karl Stumpfe had a chance to respond. That is really poor form no matter whom really is at fault. Hearing from both sides is part of natural justice. 2. I have hunted with Karl Stumpfe and didn't have anything at all at fault or not promised delivered during the safari. Not once did Karl mention any sort of illegal activities nor show any hint of dishonesty. He came across and delivered in an honest, reputable, hard working manner. Just my personal experience but obviously from other clients posting here a similar opinion. Now if Karl showed the sort of behaviour alleged in the first post, I would think we would be seeing more negative reports and comments, wouldn't we? I am not saying there might not have been some problems on Tim Herald's safari as both sides agree on some of these problems. 3. There are reports by Tim Herald about what PH X said, what a PH in South Africa said, what a camera man saw and heard. What do these people actually say? Can't we hear directly from them as hearsay is just hearsay as any sort of evidence. Tim say's one PH said he would not work for Karl again, yet Karl says the PH is working for him right now? A difference? This PH should be very accessible as shoul Tim's cameraman? I have more comments but maybe later. | |||
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Late Bloomer, all I can say is SAYONARA!!!! More appropriate might be to say AMF, as in Adios M-----F----. Other than being interested observers, 99% of us have no dog in this fight, you included. This was a problem between two private parties, and one of them chose to make it public, I suspect in part to ensure noone else suffers the same ruined hunt, but also probably to help ensure his result would be more favorable. This doesn't affect you one iota, so get over it. You finish by saying something about shallow water, interesting that YOU would use the term shallow, as that is exactly how I perceived your post, well before I got to the end. For the two parties who matter, glad you were able to work it out. | |||
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Wow! It seems to me that if Tim is happy with whatever Karl has offered, our opinions and standards don't mean anything. Seeya late-Bloomer. | |||
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I'm going to withhold further comment until Tim Herald gets his money, but if you think he's "happy" with whatever he gets you are not reading the same thread I'm reading. He's cutting his losses and getting the best result that he can out of a complete f**k up. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Actually the saying is "Bulls and Bears make money and pigs get slaughtered" | |||
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Wow... I go elk scouting for a few days and come back to this.. Sure wasn't the outcome of Tim's hunt we all wanted to see, especially because both are regulars on this site.. Tim got the shit end of the stick on this hunt and Karl knows he caused it. Tim wants to be reimmbursed as best he can for this mess, and rightly so. I cannot blame him one bit for this. Karl double booked and figured the Russians carried more hard cash with them.. A quick buck was flashed and taken as priority, instead of thinking of the possible bad publicity and reprocussions of taking a shit on someone else's safari..Shame on you, Karl. Seems that he won't go under on this one, but it's has definately taken a hit in the reputation department. I for one won't be looking his way for my Namib hunt. Too many others out there who I can trust. I hope you get all that should rightly come your way, Tim. Good luck. | |||
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I don't care what other people say about you, Gato, but you can sure as hell read and understand the English language  .I don't know either party involved here, but like you, am curious to see that the agreed cash is timely received. I don't see either party going away happy -- just resolved. If a hunter is adamantly dissatisfied with a hunt he bought, then he can hardly be blamed for not wanting to take future "in kind" partial payment of another hunt as compensation. It's kinda like years ago when I was farming and oversupply due to Gov't policies made grain not worth hauling to the elevator. So the "gummit" offered to give me some more grain to make up for the money I lost? What a deal. Anyway, I can't help but suspicion that the entire situation here could have something to do with worldwide economic stress. I 'spect them Ruskies were able to pay top dollar (probably siphoned off of the last load of diesel you got delivered), and Mr. Discount TV Man ended up sucking hind teat. Also sounds like that when the Ruskies showed up with all of the rubles falling out of their pockets(likely booked at least a week before their Aeroflot landed) that the outfitter started scrambling not to lose the income from either client -- by his own admission he just came up short. I could certainly be wrong about this analysis, but I, too, can read the King's English and that's what I read into it. Anyhow, even if that's not the case here, it is almost certain to be the case in many paid hunts until the economic situation returns to closer to the norm. | |||
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Stone, It is always the money! If you ever wonder why people do what they do - it is always the money.. | |||
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Good to hear that things have worked out. While it is never possible to really understand what went wrong with someone else's safari, the fact that an outfitter is willing to at least try to make things right says a lot. Read almost every other related post on this thread where someone had a problem on their safari, and you will see that most outiftters just blow off the problem and move on. It is exceedingly rare for an outfitter to offer any meaningful compensation after a hunt has gone south. Karl's offer seems to have been accepted by Tim in good faith. While maybe not quite jumping for joy, Tim should be willing to move on and put this situation behind him. Kudos to Karl for stepping up to the plate. I've been on half a dozen safaris, and countless other hunts in the US. Five of those safaris were memorable in every way imaginable. I will look forward to safari #7 with much the same anticipation as all the others. Safaris have an element of the unknown for a reason, and that is what keeps us coming back. While many of us never realize that our interaction with the PH is part of the adventure, it has a huge impact on the overall experience. Great trophies and success in the field can partially make up for a boorish or obnoxious PH, but your interaction with the PH will color every hunt. A great PH can make a difficult hunt all the more special, even when the game doesn't cooperate. The opposite will still yield a dismal outcome. My advice to everyone is to make sure you book with a PH that you will enjoy spending time with in the field. The one given on any hunt is that you will spend an awful lot of time with that other person. I enjoy hunting new countries and meeting new PH's, but there are a few whom I would gladly hunt with again on a moments's notice. Those are the truly great outfits that keep me yearning for more.... Bill | |||
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And just how, pray tell, does one who has not yet been on safari go about doing that? Tea leaves? Crystal ball? Opium inspired visions? Read all hunt reports on AR? ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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SCI or DSC convention | |||
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Preferably SCI's choice of Professional Hunter of the Year  | |||
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I think T.H. clearly stipulated that he enjoyed spending time with K.S. His complaint was that K.S. did not spend the contracted time with him.
Everyone is a salesman at a sales convention. Nothing wrong with this, but judging what kind of hunting guide a person would make when they are putting their best foot forward and making their best promises in a contrived situation is not necessarily the most dependable opportunity to judge their character or potential performance. | |||
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Huh? Let's see Karl has refused to honor the contract. When called out he has offered less than an adequate settlement, and he is to be praised for this behavior? Wonderful! I agree with Gatogordo: "if you think he's "happy" with whatever he gets you are not reading the same thread I'm reading. He's cutting his losses and getting the best result that he can out of a complete f**k up." Here is a guy who seems to have done everything right ie. he had a contract, when he saw a problem, he raised it with the outfitter/PH. What did Tim do wrong? Perhaps the sages on this forum will tell us how we peons can avoid this problem. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Having thought about what's been said and mulled over it a bit, there is one thing that's bugging me. TH in his initial post leveled a pointed accusation at KS, claiming in no uncertain terms that KS had admitted that many, if not most of the leopards taken under him were done illegally. Now, that's a very serious charge, and if I were KS, no matter if I botched the hunt in every way possible, would I offer TH another hunt? In a word, *never*. Someone accuses me of a crime, and I'm going to let it go? I'd rather spend a week in croc infested waters wearing a meatloaf hat than offer so much as a postcard, nevermind a make up hunt. Why is it that KS chose to essentially forget that TH accused him of poaching in all this? Things that make you go hmm... Oh, and Colonel Mustard did it in the basement with the candlestick. ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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There's nothing ever foolproof. I will say that forums like AR provide a great incentive for outfitters and booking agents to come thru with their promises. Like I said before - screw the Russians. | |||
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I thought it from the opposite direction. How $4000 suddenly settled the client down and suddenly there is no more furore ...  The original post I believe was originally posted before Stumpfe was even back from the Caprivi safari and before he had a chance to respond or talk to the client. | |||
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Nitro, I gave Karl my word I wouldn't say anything else negative if we came to an agreement. That does not mean that I am happy about the situation. And no, Karl had already e-mailed me from home when I originally posted. Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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If you take Larium for a few weeks, you can predict that Potiphar's wife would be a bum lay, that .45/70's won't penetrate a charging bull elephant's head and that Barney Frank would make a good P.H. The principals are both bruised, be it financially or in reputation, but have met a solution that they are willing to live with. Let's let this dog go to sleep and lay??? That's what I'm going to do, then I'll take some larium and predict what kind of time I'll have with Lou Hallamore in 29 days. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Judge,were and what will you be hunting? I wanted to buy Hallamore's book but found it to expensive(150$??).I hope I find a bargain some place and get it.He droped by our Chirisa camp one night last August. | |||
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Shootaway: I've received several inquires about my upcoming hunt and I'll post a separate thread about it when I get out of court this afternoon, thereby giving the principals the chance for the sleepy dog to stay under the porch. I AM looking very forward to my safari!!! JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Looks like a good learning experiences for safari operators to me. Lessons learned: 1. Don't make promises that you can't keep. 2. When you do make a promise, keep it unless the client agrees to the change. 3. Take responsibility for your actions and those of the PHs you hire. NO EXCUSES! 4. If things go tits up for the client through no fault of his, and it is your fault go far out of your way to solve it to the clients satisfaction. Your reputation isn't worth the few dollars you will save. How much is your reputation worth? Had Karl followed any of these good business practices we probably would never had heard of these problems. 465H&H | |||
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I don't know Karl or Tim, and don't have a dog in this fight. While I'm sure neither party is totally happy with the series of events, the fact they have mutually agreed to some sort of resolution I do believe is meaningful. And no, it probably doesn't make either party whole - and nothing will! While I sympathize with Tim, I do find it relevant that Karl identified a major problem (loss of PH, conflict in schedule) before the hunt began, and tried to cancel / reschedule Tim's hunt. Reading between the lines, Tim was unable / unwilling to reschedule (understandable), and some verbal agreements were made about how to proceed. Karl could have just as reasonably refused to conduct Tim's hunt at all given the loss of staff, and Tim would likely have still been upset. In retrospect, Tim may now wish he had called off the trip at this point (as Karl proposed), but he knew Karl was in a bind going in. This is a far different state than showing up unaware of any issues, and not being met in the airport, or having the problem come to light when in country. This isn't to excuse Karl, but it does recognize that he made the client aware of the problem right away, and presented some options on how to go forward. Their verbal agreements at this point form the gist of the dispute. While I would likely be unhappy as well, at least I see the PH trying to be open about the issue, and "make a plan". Lastly, I see the allegations of illegal activities as totally baseless given what has been presented, and simply an attempt to unfairly pressure Karl. If there was any meat to this charge, it would quickly have become apparent. I am glad the parties came to a resolution that was agreeable to both. This rarely happens to disputes presented on the net.... Bill | |||
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Would you be willing to eat $5,000 or more (his and his cameraman's) in non-refundable airfare in order to let your outfitter cater to a couple of better-heeled hunters who probably booked subsequent to your booking? And remember, this guy's got your $4,000 deposit in his pocket 7,000 miles away. "Hello, there, Llama! Gee, I've had a problem arise. You wouldn't mind putting your hunt off until I run out of better-paying customers, would you? I've got a chance to milk a couple of rich Russians instead of doing your piddly little discounted hunt for a TV show that will probably never make the air. No kidding? You wouldn't mind a bit? Wow, you're a great guy and I won't forget what a chump you are when you finally do show up! See you in a month or two, or maybe next year or whenever, buddy! I'll take good care of your $4,000 deposit until then." | |||
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Agreed, Stonecreek! One lesson I have learned from this is NOT to pay a trophy fee up front. Llama hasn't mentioned Karl going up on the PG trophy fees either, but I guess that is an example of: While I would likely be unhappy as well, at least I see the PH trying to be open about the issue, and "make a plan". Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I wonder what the guys here would do if: they had two hunting parties requiring 2 PHs and 1 PH, had 3 lined up - an employee PH lined up with a free lance PH for a dangerous game hunt, the outfitter himself for the other, and then right before the 2 safaris your employee PH resigns to do some personal stuff? Someone's always going to be left in the lurch ie be handled by another free lance PH and it probably would not be the dangerous game hunt clients. Irrespective of if the clients were just Russians .... I think the parties have settled it to their "satisfaction", well at least settled it. | |||
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I don't think it makes any difference what " the guys here would do if..." What matters is how an outfitter would handle this situation and in this case we have the answer. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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We actually have three points here. One is that both Karl and Tim solve the problem to their own satisfaction. That is their choice, and whatever they agree on to end this argument is good for both. The second point to consider is what would any of us do if faced with the same situation. For me it would mean, regardless of what Kark pays me back, the damage has been done, and I would not consider hunting with him again. Even if he gives me a free hunt. I know, he says he has gotten into this situation because some of his PHs have quit. That is really not my problem. As far as I am concerned, I want to have the hunt I agreed with him on. Other clients do not come into my equation. That is his problem, and he should deal with them without affecting my hunt. The third point what would any of us who have not hunted with Karl do? Would we consider hunting with him after hearing this? I would give him the benefit of the doubt, as it is the first time I heard a complaint about him, and I think he should be given another chance. I would not, however, ever consider hunting with outfitters who I have heard more than one complaint about, regardless of how big they are, or how many satisfied clients put a good word in for them. We have many good outfitters we can choose to hunt with, and I think the ones who seem to consider that a client every now and then getting upset is part of normal business, should be made aware that others would try harder to give their clients a satisfying hunt without any gripes. | |||
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Totally agree with Saeed here! Andy | |||
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I am sorry for your troubles, Tim. We all know that things do not always go as planned, but what strikes me is that the outfitter allowing this conflict with other hunters to arise in the first place is shocking. | |||
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It looks like this problem will soon be resolved (for better or worse) so I’m not going to comment on the specifics of this post. However, I would like to address an attitude that I have seen expressed here as well as other similar problem hunt posts. In angers me to hear someone criticize the hunter because after being told (a few days before leaving) that there was a problem with the hunt, that once the hunter agreed all complaints regarding the situation should be over. I have also seen the same type of situation criticized here when an area is changed at the last minute. Well, putting aside the obvious considerable loss in airfare, I think it’s grossly elitist to presume to treat the situation that the hunter is faced with in the same way that you would if he found out that a movie is sold out at a local theater. I have been to Africa only twice and unlike some of the posters here that make it a yearly vacation, I planned, saved and prepped for years before each trip, including rearranging personal and work schedules way in advance. And I wasn’t making a TV show. So it irks me to hear someone act like this or any hunter was stupid for taking a chance and going along anyway and they now have no right to complain because they were given an “out”. In reality, what practical choice did Tim have besides taking a chance and hoping for the best based on the PH’s word. So in the future, when we get a problem post where plans changed through no fault of their own and the hunter decides to go through with the hunt, let’s show some realistic understanding of the situation that they are in. "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do; nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do; I envy him, and him only, that kills bigger deer than I do." Izaak Walton (modified) | |||
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GL: Your point is well made. Not only does a hunter typically have thousands invested in non-refundable air fare, he may have juggled duties and family commitments for months or even years to arrange to be away for two weeks from his job and other obligations; may have purchased a special gun, gun case, ammunition trasport box, camera, etc., just for this one trip. He may have no choice to do anything other than simply agree, grudgingly or not, with whatever modifications to their agreement the outfitter dictates at the last minute, whether the outfitters reasons for the modifications are legitimate or not. If he doesn't agree, he knows he is certain to lose his airfare. At the whim of the outfitter, he may lose part or all of a considerable deposit. In short, when the outfitter calls and says that thing are going to be different than your agreement, you may be in an exceedingly weak position to do anything other than that which the outfitter dictates. Except to air grievance after the fact on AR, that is. Parenthetically, the outfitter I hunted with in 2007 asked for no deposit. "Just send me your airline booking receipt when you get it. I know you'll show up once you've spent that money", he wrote me. | |||
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Damn, "parenthetically"........there you go again, reading the dictionary when you should've been sleeping.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Hunting Reports - Africa Very Critical Hunt Report from My Leopard Hunt with AR's own Karl S.
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