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That's the biggest crock of shit posted yet. Typical, it's now all Tim's fault because Karl didn't perform as his contract specified. I've just got one question for you and Jorge, did Karl have a contract with the Russians which specified that he would be the PH? If so, then he lied to Tim when he said he'd be his PH for all of his hunt until he killed a leopard. If not, then he didn't honor his word with Tim? Which is it? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Gato: Please show me where I said it's Tim's fault. All I said was I didn't have all the facts including what you ask about the Russians. My issue was with folks who stir the pot without all the facts. When the time comes and all facts are out, then we can all put forth our opinions for what they are worth. Until such time, why drag a man's rep through the mud? jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Do you really believe that Karl's future business will be stunted by this one internet message board posting? How much was Pierre van Tonder and Ray Atkinson's business hurt by the Sheephunter MEGA-thread? I'll wager they both turn away prospective customers at their whim. I'm of the opinion that Karl will not be put on the soup line because he didn't fulfill Tim's contract.
Am I the only one who didn't know Jorge was world famous?  | |||
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It's a default position don't you know, we ALL are legends in our own minds, unless of course you're P-3s...jorge EDITED USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Then that would make me a world-famous Naval Aviator's avionics troubleshooter.  Orion? No, Vigilante. | |||
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Uhh Viggies, you ARE indeed famous! Hunting Club buddy flew them and RF-8s in Veet-nam. Silver Star and brass balls! jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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It makes absolutely no deference who booked first. Tim had a booking, and he had an agreement with Karl that he will be his PH. Karl was aware of this, and agreed to it. It seems whoever was supposed to be the Russians PH has quit, and Karl had to make plans. Logicaly, a new PH had to be found to hunt with the Russians, not with Tim. Sure, none of us know all of the facts, specifically as they deal with why Karl wanted to change Tim's dates at the very last moment, so those who are getting themselves hot under the collar are doing it for nothing. | |||
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Ankle biting?? Well ain't that just the pot calling the kettle black??!! The lat 2 pages of this thread have been nothing but pissing and moaning.. I'm world famous too, BTW.. I just don't toot my own horn about it.. It's like a guy with a smal dick who buys the H1 Hummer with the 10" lift to compensate for his "short" comings.. Kinda tarnishes the image and all.. Karl fucked up. We ALL know that. Tim was at his mercy on this whole deal.. Karl's "rebuttal offer" after the fact on here was weak at best, and made him look desparate to get his named cleared ASAP... bad for the business and all, ya know?? I bettcha he won't do that again..ESPECIALLY with someone who books with him off of this site! I would have done the EXACT same as Tim did. Kudos to you Tim, and I hope you can come away from this at a bare minimum with the bitterness of a dream safari turned awful removed by the hopes of getting that kitty yet.. He's still out there with your name on him.. He just doesn't know it. | |||
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Saeed, maybe so, but like the Sheephunter thread there's been a lot of what is in my opinion is an attempt to destroy a man's business. If Karl indeed screwed up, then he screwed up plain and simple and he should own up to it, and I sincerely hope the best possible solution for Tim, but I don't know all the facts. Do you think Pierre deserved what he got here from a few people who didn't even know the man much less the whole story? We'll have to see as it plays out. As to the "ankle biting" it was meant to show that in my view there have been some uncalled for insults, and I just wanted to see if there were more facts to be had. I didn't accuse anybody specifically. Regarding the "World Famous" comment, it was obviously tongue in cheek, but apparently it was misunderstood. I'll have to remind myself to keep things simpler and all, but as to "penis envy" I must confess, I do wear a big watch.... jorge DSC Life Member USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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When a man doesn't honor his word, not to mention a contract, he's the one destroying his business, not some internet poster. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Can't argue with that Gato. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Wow...OK guys...I got an e-mail from Karl a few days back that said he was sending the remainder of the money back with eyedoc. I assume he will. Then this is case closed as far as I am concerned, because that is the best I can hope for. I am not happy with the outcome of any of it at all. We still lost a lot of money and time, but life isn't always fair, and I tried to cut my losses. Whoever said that I should have postponed the trip 2 weeks??? Eyedoc was scheduled in 2 weeks after me, so that wasn't an option and was never discussed. Karl did say that we could postpone the trip (a couple of days before I left) for later, but that was impossible for us to do as myself and my cameraman have very tight schedules through January. We plan 6-12 months ahead, and we can't just push things back a bit. Plus, there are a lot of expenses involved even if we could have, and we couldn't. I wasn't trying to be difficult, it was just an impossibility, and it was cancel or go when the contract stated. I had to turn down a chance to go to Zim in Oct and pay $200/day , shoot buff and pg for trophy fees. It overlaps with a trip I am committed to in Sask. at the same time, and although I would much rather go to Africa and hunt buff, I committed to the Sask trip, and that is what I am going to follow through with. No one should be pissed about this situation but me (just my opinion). I am sure Karl is pissed though. Again, I am not going to stir this further. I think I will get the rest of my money from Karl. I told him I would drop it if that happens. As I said before, we are still out a lot of money and time, and I know I am not getting any of that back. It sucks, but it is reality. I am trying to look ahead to my next trip, and farther on to my next trip to Africa with Buzz in July 2010. I guess I will try to put a leopard hunt together again for 2011. That is something I want badly, and I will try again, just a different time and different place. Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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Tim, that was me and again without knowing all the facts like the one you just posted. I'm truly sorry your hunt turned out bad, especially with a gent like Karl who enjoys a good reputation. I wish you good luck on your future cat hunt. Do you have a TV show? Cheers, jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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If I was Karl I would throw in another 2k for goodwill. I suspect it would go a long way with people on this board. | |||
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Jorge, We were to film for Territories Wild and Pro Hunter Journal on ESPN2. I am just one of a team of guys on those shows. I have been 1 of the 2 hosts on Outdoor America for the past 2 years on Outdoor Channel, but have recently signed on to do a new show The Zone (which I will have a stake in and a lot of input)- we filmed some this spring, have a full schedule for this fall and it will begin airing in fall 2010. We are hoping to get a sister show - The D-Zone (all dangerous game, all the time) to begin running in spring 2011. That is a long way in the future, but we have to plan way ahead. Thanks for the well wishes...TH Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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Thanks for the info. The son of my best friend has a show called Southern Outdoor Experience. Best, jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Is it Mike Stroff or Jamie Satterfield? I hunted turkeys with them this spring and am hunting deer with Mike after Christmas this year on a fantastic no fence ranch...good guys! Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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It's Mike. Known him since he was about 4 feet tall. He takes real good care of me. Hunted with him last year at his ranch and at the Canyon. His dad is like a brother to me. We have an axis hunt coming up in Sept and Me and his dad always help out with the clients so maybe I'll see you in Dec. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I'm purely speculating here, but I think a whole lot of this situation came about because Karl has a serious case of the shorts (gambling expression meaning you're out or nearly out of money). I could delineate the reasons why I believe this, but it doesn't matter, either it's a fact or it's not. If he wasn't short, there is no real reason for this situation to develop as it did, unless he's like a neighbor of mine that has some psychosis about paying people or spending money. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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"Karl has a serious case of the shorts" Shouldn't this have been resolved by the now famous "Russians"? Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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While I don't wish Karl any ill at all, I kind of hope that money problems are the root of Tim's situation. That doesn't excuse him, but people will do things they wouldn't normally do when faced with cash shortfalls. Look at Madoff, he was a little short, so he stole a few billion to tide him over.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I'm not sure why I'm supprised, but since both parties have spoken and anybody that actually knows anything about this matter has said their piece can we stop  ?Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Jorge, I am at the Harris Ranch on Dec 27-31. Winchester, Bad Boy Buggies and TC are doing a media event. I am lucky enough to be hunting one of the trophy bucks there this year. I hunted the Canyon this spring. I killed 3 gobblers and helped kill 3 more on a 3 day hunt. It was pretty phenomenal this spring. I book quite a few turkey hunts for Mike. Hope you are there when I am. Mike is a really good guy...TH Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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Tim: I'll just call Mike's dad "Big Mike" and see if I can arrange that. I just love the Canyon Ranch. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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That would be great and lots of fun. We are going to have about 7 hunters in camp, so I am sure they can use the help... Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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Ouch, that's funny! Because much like the way Tim was treated by Karl, that's the same way our pilots and RAN's (reconnaissance attack navigator) treated us enlisted pukes. Actually, except for being spat upon, about the same way I was treated walking in my dress blues through Philly International Airport in '68. So, you keep the 'world famous' moniker all to yourself. "Unarmed and Unafraid" my ass. | |||
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Gato: I'd give you about a 95% chance of being right on this one. We've (nearly) all been there ourselves at one time or another and can understand and sympathize to some extent, though that doesn't condone shortchanging a client. The lessen here is to do business, to the extent possible, with people who have the financial capability to perform even when circumstances make it difficult. Guiding for dangerous game is, in and of itself, something of a roll of the dice. I know that the guide I hunted with in Namibia (who hunted only plains game on his own farm) commented that the dangerous game guides are "a different breed". I suspect that quite a few DG guides are the "feast and famine" types who have an easy come, easy go view of money and who, on not infrequent occassions, find themselves "financially embarassed". Though naturally more costly than dealing directly with an outfitter, it's probably a very good idea to escrow your money through a domestic agent when paying for high-dollar hunts. That's no guarantee of financial safety, but at least pressing a suit against a U.S.-domiciled business stands more chance of success than flailing around hopelessly in the arcane legal system of some third world country. | |||
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Stonecreek - First off, it is NO MORE costly to book a hunt with a reputable agent, than booking directly with the outfitter himself! If you have an agent charging more for the hunt than the outfitter charges directly, I suggest using a different agent! Our commission comes to us from the outfitter, taken directly from his NORMAL price, not a higher price charged by the agent, for the same hunt! However, it is very helpful to have the agent HOLD your money in the states until everything is to the client's satisfaction, which is what we do in almost every case! Secondly, how do you suggest one file suit against an agent for breach of contract by the outfitter?? I suppose you could, but if the agent acted in good faith, then the outfitter changes the program once the hunter arrived, what responsibility is that to the agent? Not that I as an agent am washing my hands of responsibility to my client, but it would seem that in your scenario the WRONG person would be the target of re-course?? As most reputable agents, I try to pick my outfitters carefully, but no one is beyond making a mistake or poor decision. Especially in the case when said outfitter has acted in a professional manner with many previous clients! | |||
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Aaron, can you clear something up for me? I have used a couple of booking agents in the past and they did indeed hold my payments in escrow. Everything worked fine and was very convenient. However, I was under the impression that was was really held were trophy fees and that the final deposits for daily rates, charters, etc. were all wired overseas before you arrived. Are you saying that isn't true and that a hunter in the situation relating to this thread could possibly request the funds not be sent in the case of a real problem? If not, besides eliminating the need for the hunter to carry a big wad of cash for potential trophy fees, what is the advantage to the escrow? "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do; nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do; I envy him, and him only, that kills bigger deer than I do." Izaak Walton (modified) | |||
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Oh, everything makes sense now. I understand your bitterness cslling yourself a puke and all. Never in 30 years did I refer to any of my men that way. Guess it takes all kinds. During the Gulf War and later OEF, I couldn't buy a drink at any airport and to this day folks still come up to me and say "thanks". Also unlike those Viggie and RF-8 drivers, I went in armed and afraid. Have a wonderful day. jorge NRA Life Member DSC Life Member ODS OEF Persian Gulf Yacht Club... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Thank you Stonecreek. I have made that point a dozen times on this website. | |||
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Not sure I agree with this assessment. It seems to me that all an agent can do is use his best offices with the outfitter if there is a disagreement between the hunter and the outfitter. This is what seems to have happened in the past, with varying degrees of success. The contract is with the outfitter isn't it? Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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StoneCreek - Yes, Mr. Herald did book directly with the outfitter, but received his discount mainly based on the fact that the hunt was a promotional hunt for the outfitter, as he mentioned! Not necessarily because he booked straight with the outfitter. Secondly, often times as an agent, who books sometimes a dozen hunts per year or more for one outfitter, we have more ability to get discounts than the individual hunter who comes once and goes! Thirdly, because of that long line of steady business we provide the outfitter, we also generally have ALOT more pull with the outfitter than you in cases where things go wrong! Losing you as a client is one thing, losing a dozen clients a year is al-together a whole different story for the outfitter. So often times if something does go wrong, a good agent can go along ways to helping resolve the problem, because the outfitter does not want to lose the entire lot of business from one problem! When acting as an agent, I AM NOT equally responsible as the outfitter, and my contract says so! Why in the world would an agent who only helps facilitate the hunt, and make a fraction of the total hunt cost, be responsible for the entire hunt, should something go wrong? In my contract it states clearly, I am only responsible for the compensation in which I received from the outfitter, should an incident like this arise! Your Wal-Mart example is way off base! Wal-Mart buys the shoes at a wholesale price say $20.00, then sells the product at $40.00. Wal-Mart is where you GO to get the shoes, not to CHINA!! In the case of agent/outfitter, the outfitter is where you go to get the shoes, the agent helps you to get the shoes at the $40.00 that the outfitter is charging, and then gets a 10-15% commission on the shoes!!! Thus my responsibility is what I received, if it were to go wrong, the outfitter is responsible for the rest!! No man, an agent is not selling you the hunt the agent is providing you a service to help facilitate and arrange the HUNT, the outfitter is still the one selling you the hunt!!! So if your wording is to file suit against the one who sold you the services, what services did the agent actually sell you?? My service as an agent is just that, service!!! A service I provide to clients in helping them arrange hunting adventures, that's why I get a commission, and the outfitter gets the majority, because he is still selling you the HUNT!!! Remember, I have been an outfitter too for more than 15 year. I have agents that have arranged many clients for me over the years as well! I assure you, as the outfitter if something goes wrong, they will be looking at me to rectify the problem, and will settle for nothing less! What they do is provide a service to my outfitting operation, and to the client, for which I pay them a commission! I then send the client a contract, and I am the one selling the hunt to the client, not the agent!!! | |||
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Thanks for this very candid revelation. I'm sure that anyone who might have been considering using your services is very appreciative of this information. | |||
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+1  I've had agents pay every damn cent for a buggered up hunt... and then take it out of the hide of the outfitter/P.H. If an agent makes a representation to me that, if I book through him, I'm going to get X, Y and Z... and then sends me a disclaimer that he doesn't really mean what he said (if the hunt goes tits up) and is only a little bit responsible for his misrepresentation (intentional or not), I think I'll book elsewhere. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Stonecreek - I hope so. I wouldn't want anyone booking a hunt through me under false assumptions. I will always do everything I can for the client, including battle with the outfitter concerning his hunt/money if necessary. If you see my response to Mr. Krause in his original post regarding agents, I think I explain how I handle things, including the money given to GHR by a client. | |||
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JudgeG - Maybe my point is being lost in the mix of emotion over the issue. Fortunately I have never had a disaster for a client, with a hunt booked through GHR, with another outfitter, as you mention. Fact is, I too would do what it takes to make things right by the client, including financial compensation if necessary. You are right, a client is putting his trust in me too, and I take that very seriously. That's why I do as much "field research" and spend as much time hunting these places as I do. All in an attempt to offer quality hunting experiences, and try to eliminate offering hunts with suspect outfitters, or having problems that could result in issues such as you have experienced. I will use your words specifically, "If an agent makes a representation to me that, if I book through him, I'm going to get X, Y and Z... and then sends me a disclaimer that he doesn't really mean what he said (if the hunt goes tits up) and is only a little bit responsible for his misrepresentation (intentional or not)" First off, the disclaimer does not say or imply that I don't mean what I say. I am always in good faith giving info and making arrangements based on what I know to be true, and what I expect the outfitter to do, based on what he has told me will happen. Secondly, if in the case of Tim's hunt things went down as he says they did, and please note, I am not saying they did, I am just using this as an example. Then, that is NOT a mis-representation by the agent if one would have been used, that's an outfitter FUCK-UP, that has nothing to do with the representation of the hunt, made by the agent! So my overall point is, if something like this happens once the client arrives, and the agent is no more aware of it than than the client, and it was not any part of the representation of the hunt that the agent made, then the responsibility both ethically, and legally, should fall upon the outfitter, period!! That's all I am saying, I am saying it in more matter of fact terms, not necessarily how I would handle every situation with my own clients! Maybe I should have made that more clear in my original posting. A mis-representation by the agent would be something like booking a hunt for client with outfitter X, telling the client that he will be hunting Concession Y simply to get him to book the hunt, but the outfitter does not even offer hunts in Concession Y, nor has he ever. That's an example of mis-representation made by an agent, and he should of course be 100% responsible for compensation back to the client when it all goes wrong. Just as in your example of getting X, Y and Z, I would stand by the representations I made to you regarding the hunt, representations that we ALL thought to be accurate. But, if at the last minute the outfitter starts changing hunt dates, guides, hunt locations, etc, etc, that is in no way a mis-representation by the agent. I am still not saying that I would not stand by you as my client, and work together to make it right. I am saying that in the example of the case mentioned, that's the reason why most agents have a disclaimer saying they can only be held responsible for the compensation in which they received, and why I think filing suit against the agent would be the wrong thing to do. Lastly, I seem to be the only one chiming in on this issue from the agent's stand-point, so perhaps I am the one who is going to catch all the flack. Maybe based on what I have said, you would choose not to book a hunt through me, that's obviously your choice. But I hope you can appreciate my honesty, the same honesty that I bring to the table every time I deal with a client or book a hunt. I always want my clients to have full-disclosure regarding everything I do, and everything I represent in a hunt. Perhaps that has something to do with why I have NEVER once to date, had an issue like you mention with a client's hunt, and I hope I never do. If some day it happens, I will consider all the facts and do everything possible to make it right to the client's satisfaction. | |||
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+3 xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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jorge