Caelknuts:

I don't read where JudgeG has offered to PAY for the priviledge of taking up Karl's offer, but IMO, if he or anyone is willing to pay Tim Herald $4000 for the offer and then it would be strictly between the payer and Karl, I think that is the best solution from Tim's POV. This is my public and private opinion and I want to make clear that I am not communicating with any of the involved parties (whom I don't know) or ANYONE about this by PM.

Like the TV show, "Deal or No Deal", if anyone wants to pay $4000 for this hunt offer by Karl, my advice to Tim Herald to take the offer. It won't make you whole but it will help defray expenses and I think it is your best and possibly only way out of this bad situation.

Now, is JudgeG ready to pay $4000 for the hunt? If not, who is?

I think a second chance for this PH is certainly valiant and deserved(as it would appear his offer to make amends is).....particularly if he has no history of this kind of thing in the past. It doesn't sound like he is running a sham operation and perhaps this experience will make every hunter's experience with him in the future that much better.

Damn, I'm in such a magnanimous mood this Sunday morning!

Wow...after reading this whole thread it is scary. I have never been to Africa. I had to postpone my trip to Namibia from this June to next June due to a serious family illness. KarlS was my very close second choice in all the research I did. I chose a more plush game lodege becaue my wife is coming....if I was going alone I would have chosen Karl. I even considered changing to him when I postponed.

I have 3 young children with baseball, football, summer beach trips and work you can't jsut tell the Mrs. yeah I am going to drop a couple more $$$ on airfare and give this another go see you in a couple weeks.

The offer is a decent gesture, Karl seems as though this may be a one time error that has seriously snowballed. You can't have that happen
especially with an AR member...let alone with a ESPN film crew in tow.
I guide for waterfowl and filmed for a TV show last year and my world stopped prior to their arrival, to make sure the hunt was the best.
I had hunters from VA come up to PA last year and only bag one bird after buying hotel rooms. I didn't accept their money when they tried to pay me.

I'd have to get my money back and be out the airfare and be bitter for years. You can't go to Namibia have your PH leave you and kill only a springbok. The Leopard fee is due back anyways. Current decent offer aside there is one real way to rectify. Full refund immediatley is not that much for your previously pristine reputation...I for one wish I did not have read this. It would be the answer at the end of this long thread the future searches from prospective clients would need to see though.

I am a typical hunter. I very likely will get only one shot at Africa. I am trusting someone with that hunt I have dreamed of my whole life.

Good luck to both of you.

Stand-up offer Karl.

I'll pay Tim $4,000 for it.

Larry:

While not publicly, I've been sent some p.m. offers to Tim. I'll defer to your offer and withdraw mine.

I've already got hunts booked for 2010 and 2011 but was willing to try to put some water on the fire and (perhaps somewhat selfishly) get a good hunt at a good price, too.

I hope Tim takes up the offer!

I have just made a very generous offer to Mr. Herald via email, which I do believe will cost me substancially less than having to do a hunt for free. (Sorry larry and judge, but thanks for the vote of confidance!)

There is obviuosly a lot more to this story than most know, and as I have a business to run, I must withdraw from any attemts to draw me into another fight.

To all the doom-sayers, just ask yourself the question, what would you have done if a critical part of your staff withdrew a few days before the start of TWO very important hunts, hunts for which it was nearly impossible to get other permits for?

Ernest:

My apologies. I thought you were joking.

At any rate Karl has ended this matter.

Tim:

From a purely financial standpoint, the cost of the bad hunt plus the cost of a makeup hunt next year would still be way less than most leopard hunts in prime areas. I just paid in the $40,000 range for a hugely successful leopard and buffalo hunt in prime country. That included two airfares, charters, an observer, nine trophy fees and baits, about twice as many hunting days, and a mega-luxurious camp, but the point is that your cost of both hunts would still be very low by comparison.

From a quality of the hunt standpoint, I would think that Karl would be doing backflips to make sure you had a very successful hunt if you returned. The consensus on this forum is that Karl is capable and can put together a quality hunt. Basically, his only chance to rectify this situation AND his reputation is to give you the hunt that you did not get first time around.

If he delivers, you have Mr. Spots or at least a good shot at him.

If he does not deliver, his reputation takes a second and more serious hit.

I think it may be time to book a hunt!

Tim,
if you feel a show on ESPN would not be aired, maybe a video would be an idea. As several others have mentioned. Those of us who will maybe only be able to swing one or two trips to hunt africa would absolutely be interested in learning more about making a proper selection. It also might allow you to make your loss on this trip a paying proposition. Just an idea from the peanut gallery.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
I have just made a very generous offer to Mr. Herald via email, which I do believe will cost me substancially less than having to do a hunt for free. (Sorry larry and judge, but thanks for the vote of confidance!)

There is obviuosly a lot more to this story than most know, and as I have a business to run, I must withdraw from any attemts to draw me into another fight.

To all the doom-sayers, just ask yourself the question, what would you have done if a critical part of your staff withdrew a few days before the start of TWO very important hunts, hunts for which it was nearly impossible to get other permits for?

I would have insisted on the cancelation and refunded the entire amounts plus airfare or a discount on a future hunt. I would have canceled the Russians as they were not doing a TV show and the bulk of your business comes from Europe and the US, not Russia. Your reputation would not suffer nearly as much if you canceled the Russians.

The permits could be offered for hunts later in the season as this is the early part of your hunting seasons.

You are too worried about money today and not what you are definitely going to lose in the future from fewer bookings.

You asked for an opinion, here it is.

I have found most folks from West Texas to be straight shooters, I'll have to cast my vote in this with JoshA. If several forum members with far more experience than most of us (JudgeG et al) were willing to buy Karl's offer from Tim, pretty much making Tim whole, that is yet another reason to cut Karl some slack. Sorry for both Tim and Karl, I guess the moral is that TV stars don't always get the best seat in the house, and any small business man can screw up.

Just my $.02

I hope this works out, but, in fact, KarlS has withdrawn his offer that he made in here when it looked like it might be accepted, in his own words because he's looking for a cheaper way out. I'd like to hear from Tim Herald when he has been satisfied.

quote:

Originally posted by JPenn:
I have found most folks from West Texas to be straight shooters, I'll have to cast my vote in this with JoshA. If several forum members with far more experience than most of us (JudgeG et al) were willing to buy Karl's offer from Tim, pretty much making Tim whole, that is yet another reason to cut Karl some slack. Sorry for both Tim and Karl, I guess the moral is that TV stars don't always get the best seat in the house, and any small business man can screw up.

Just my $.02

But that begs the question, why should Tim sell Karl's hunt. Why not Karl refund Tim and go sell his own hunt to recoup the money?

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

To all the doom-sayers, just ask yourself the question, what would you have done if a critical part of your staff withdrew a few days before the start of TWO very important hunts, hunts for which it was nearly impossible to get other permits for?

How many of those hunts had you promised to personally PH for?

Also, how did the loss of a PH result in a lack of a cook and tracker?

Others have mostly said what I wanted to say, but I will add the following:

It appears that is affair was the result of a convergence of (1) unforeseen negative circumstances (late PH problem for the Russians, visa problems, scarce leopards, PG hunting conditions not ideal), (2) the things said by PH X, and (3) a lot of misunderstanding.

There is not a lot one can do about most of (1). At the last minute the PH for the Russians fell through. Karl tried to salvage the hunts, with much effort and money invested by all parties in jeopardy. It’s easy for us to say, “If Karl promised to be the PH for the entire hunt, that’s that.” But life isn’t tidy, and one has to react nimbly to what life throws one’s way. Karl says he alerted Mr. Herald before the trip about this predicament and received a verbal agreement, in effect, to amend the contract. Others seem perplexed that Karl did not move heaven and earth to put on a good show for ESPN. I take it as more evidence of Karl’s integrity: he could have abandoned the Russians to strut in front of the camera, but he did not. It appears to me that he tried, as best he could, to salvage both hunts, even if that meant sacrificing the precious chance of that all-important American media exposure for his growing business so that the Russian hunters would not be left in the lurch.

There is not much one can say about (2) as a bystander who was not there.

As pointed out by others, I suspect (3) had most to do with making this such a sour experience. Just look at the simple issue of acres versus hectares and the exchange between Jean B. de Runz and Saeed. It is very easy to misunderstand one another even when speaking the same language. Indeed, one can be less attuned to differences in language use precisely because we are all speaking English. When chatting with fellow Americans from other parts of the country I have sometimes had to pause to determine whether some unexpected utterance was meant in earnest or in jest.

Karl has been uniformly praised by those who have hunted with him. In my experiences with him (ten days, 1x1, in Namibia, and a hunt in Texas last year) I have never found Karl to be anything but a skilled, energetic, honest, self-effacing man. He should not be condemned by one incident likely caused by unavoidable circumstances compounded with misunderstandings. We should not trifle with a man’s hard-earned reputation if there is any reasonable doubt and think twice before turning on “One of Us”.

No ones reputation should rest on a single bad incident. If it did we would all have failed careers and failed businesses.

In my career the worst things happened when you overextend yourself. In this case Karl knew this was coming, he saw the writing on the wall, his gut said to cancel one of the hunts. But in the end I suspect he rolled the dice so as not to dissapoint either party and hoping that he could pull off a win. He didn't.

So that leaves cleaning up the mess. And that is especially hard considering the time, tickets, and everything else the client has invested. Not to mention it is incumbent for him to salvage a possibly dissalusioned hunter or the whole industry suffers.

It is all in his court.

MVR,

I agree that I (we)need to step back for just a minute. I was perhaps a little too harsh initially.

But here's the problem as I sit:
1. ESPN/filming has no bearing on this - except maybe the initial pricing.
2. The contract did spell out that Karl be the PH. So something happened and Karl had to amend it by saying he'd stay just until the leopard was taken. That deal was broken (twice now).
3. Ten days there and not a whole lot of hunting.
4. The visa. Sounded like empty promises of it being taken care of when nothing had actually been done.
5. Russians over the Americans. Screw a bunch of Russians.
6. Changes in PG prices. I'd never heard of that game before. Agree to certain prices and then find out there are 'better' ranches but with different prices? Wonder if that's on Karl's website?
7. PH's, like any employees, come and go. But two at the same time? Management problems???

I did say I was a little harsh initially. He has had a good rep until this incident and that rep in itself should speak volumes. But his decision making in a crisis situation wasn't real sharp.

Guys...Karl made an offer...I made a counter...He came back to me with something that is close, and if he can accept my second counter, we will be case closed.

I will give Karl total credit at this point for trying to work things out. If he meets me on this thing, I will be the first to say he did rectify the situation with a refund as much as I guess is possible.

I am not out for revenge at all. I want my $ back to apply toward another leopard hunt in the future. I sincerely hope that I can soon say that we are in agreement and this whole mess is over. If an agreement is made, I wil also notify NAPHA and The Huning Report that we agreed on a settlement.

I hope that is fair...TH

I've been following this thread from the beginning...its a down-right SHAME!!!!!

Any hunter put in your predicament should've had an immediate refund by the Outfitter/PH regardless if it was KS from AR Forum or not!!!

Free Hunts and Offers don't cut it...If I was in your shoes and was on a hunt such as this with any Outfitter/PH irregardless of KS...I would think someone with enough INTEGRITY and WISDOM would have done much more even QUICKER to rectify the problem!!!

As a contractor I have had to rectify problems to protect my NAME...We all have to at some point or another as business owners cause things/stuff does happen because we can't ALWAYS control the unknowns!!!!

But to protect my NAME and REPUTATION I'd easily run down to the bank to do what is RIGHT in a heart-beat!!! I couldn't live with myself knowing I didn't RIGHT a WRONG and let someone else pay for my ill-fated but wrong-doing nontheless!!!

I hope it works out in your FAVOR is all I can say!!!

$4K is chump change for protecting my NAME and REPUTATION and BUSINESS!!!!!!!

I know...I have EATEN it before!!!!!

GOOD LUCK TIM and we all here thank you for sharing this very ENLIGHTENING thread!!!!!!

This is really BAD!!!!

I believe the entire AR Family is awaiting his decision!

Roland

Well said Squeeze,and I agree 100%.

"Give him a chance to make it right".

I hate this friggin line, and it seems to pop up here alot.

Another AR member, McKay, got screwed by another Namibian PH with a leopard hunt.
He still hasen't posted on what the outcome was.

Karl, an idea for you...give the guy his money back.

Tim,
I am glad you posted your hunt report. I like to hear these reports so I can decide if I would ever hunt with an outfitter who had a dissatisfied client. I will say that I did have Karl on my list of outfitters for a Namibia trip some time in the future. At this point I have not decided to take him off my list.

I find it interesting that when I posted my RSA hunt report and was commenting about a few issues (nothing like the ones you alleged) that bothered me, you made comments that defended the outfitter and PH.

I have never heard of one negative comment about Karl, don't even think one was mentioned during this episode. However, I think you got a bad deal and I have empathy for anyone who had a dream of particular hunt and then it turned disastrous. I have never seen you on ESPN, I'll have to pay closer attention. Too bad we all couldn't have seen a great story/hunt on TV.

quote:

$4K is chump change for protecting my NAME and REPUTATION and BUSINESS!!!!!!!

This is really the crux of the matter, IMO. Karl, how could you not justify a complete and total refund, knowing full well that this was going to be aired to the public on a relatively influential forum.....I just don't get it. Unfortunately, I've found myself in difficult business situations and for this amount I would gladly cut a check (and have, many times) and retain my reputation because..."at the end of the day that's all I have".

However, I do have a question: What in the world were you thinking, Karl???? You had an agreement with an individual/group that could have significantly improved your business or at least helped to promote it and you decide at the last minute to bail out on him and go hunt with someone else?? Are you kidding me??!! Boy, if I had the same opportunity I would have rolled out the red carpet for them, but I guess that's just me. This is ridiculously poor judgement and for that I would never hunt with you. After all, how in the world could I trust my hard-earned dollars to a businessman that makes decisions sucb as this.

Tim, I'm sorry your hunt was so miserable. There's no excuse for this but I certainly hope you get some resolution. Good luck!!

Regards,
Scott

quote:

However, I do have a question: What in the world were you thinking, Karl???? You had an agreement with an individual/group that could have significantly improved your business or at least helped to promote it and you decide at the last minute to bail out on him and go hunt with someone else?? Are you kidding me??!! Boy, if I had the same opportunity I would have rolled out the red carpet for them, but I guess that's just me. This is ridiculously poor judgement and for that I would never hunt with you. After all, how in the world could I trust my hard-earned dollars to a businessman that makes decisions sucb as this.

Exactly!

+2

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Guys...Karl made an offer...I made a counter...He came back to me with something that is close, and if he can accept my second counter, we will be case closed.

I will give Karl total credit at this point for trying to work things out. If he meets me on this thing, I will be the first to say he did rectify the situation with a refund as much as I guess is possible.

I am not out for revenge at all. I want my $ back to apply toward another leopard hunt in the future. I sincerely hope that I can soon say that we are in agreement and this whole mess is over. If an agreement is made, I wil also notify NAPHA and The Huning Report that we agreed on a settlement.

I hope that is fair...TH

I'm glad to hear Tim! I hope it works out well for both of you!

Brett

Tim,

I was quick to jump in with my opinion, and with many others, condemn the operator. After reading his generous offer to you, and your quick dismissal, there is much more here to reconsider.

First, you make serious allegations about illegal hunting activity. Tim, that allegation is just HEARSAY. Karl called you on that shot, and no one stepped up to back your claim.

The other allegations about who said what, what PH did what or told you something, again HEARSAY. Yet they served your purpose - riled up the townsfolk so we are storming Kastle Karl with torches and pitchforks.

Karl responded, IMO, like a true gentleman in the face of these so far unfounded allegations.

The only fact left to hang your hat on is Karl left you early -

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
I said it before, I believe if he had been there the whole time, the hunt would have been fine, with or without a leopard kill. I agree Karl is a capable PH.

Yet somehow, PH X worked out??

quote:

I will say this, PH X worked his tail off for us. He wasn't shy, was willing to get out and hoof it to try to change tactics from simply driving, and I really felt for him.

So which is it Tim, are you mad because you did not get your leopard, or mad because PH x didn't work out? The former, I think.

Namibia leopard is never a guarantee. If you really want a guaranteed cat, RSA might fit your bill.

In the mean time, it would seem Karl is obligated to return your unused trophy fees. Anything else he agrees to is above and beyond, and you should be lucky to get it.

Karl made a standup offer, and I would not hesitate to hunt with a man like that.

I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye. I would hunt with Karl Stumpfe in a heartbeat.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Guys...Karl made an offer...I made a counter...He came back to me with something that is close, and if he can accept my second counter, we will be case closed.

I will give Karl total credit at this point for trying to work things out. If he meets me on this thing, I will be the first to say he did rectify the situation with a refund as much as I guess is possible.

I am not out for revenge at all. I want my $ back to apply toward another leopard hunt in the future. I sincerely hope that I can soon say that we are in agreement and this whole mess is over. If an agreement is made, I wil also notify NAPHA and The Huning Report that we agreed on a settlement.

I hope that is fair...TH

That sounds like a compromise which will work out between gentlemen. We all understand that things happen. Karl seems like a "stand up guy". Would have been good if Adam Clements would have stepped up for my friend Richard and I in our bad situation. He just chose to lay low until the heat subsided.

Karl

quote:

Namibia leopard is never a guarantee. If you really want a guaranteed cat, RSA might fit your bill.

Jack, please explain, as I thought RSA was anything but a guarantee for Leopard.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
I have just made a very generous offer to Mr. Herald via email, which I do believe will cost me substancially less than having to do a hunt for free. (Sorry larry and judge, but thanks for the vote of confidance!)

There is obviuosly a lot more to this story than most know, and as I have a business to run, I must withdraw from any attemts to draw me into another fight.

To all the doom-sayers, just ask yourself the question, what would you have done if a critical part of your staff withdrew a few days before the start of TWO very important hunts, hunts for which it was nearly impossible to get other permits for?

Well, someone's gotta' play devil's advocate...

A "generous offer", Karl? Seems to me that doing the right thing, while laudable, hardly construes being generous. Right is right. If it were not, and you truly believed you did all you could and the botched hunt went tits up due to absolutely no fault of your own (I am looking at stretching yourself so thin was a mistake you made that you do have to answer for), and kept your word to hunt TH as promised, I suspect your 'generous' offer would not be forthcoming. No?

To answer your question about what would I do if a critical part of the hunt staff bailed before the hunt: I'd have called off the hunt, explaining everything, including why, and apologized for a shit sandwich fed to me under circumstances beyond my control. I'd then have refunded the deposit of the party that bowed out, with the promise that I'd make it right after if they would be willing to accept the offer. This would have been preferable than the likely potential of having deal with this... But then I think you realize that now. Not only do you have to eat a bit of crow and make things right, but you also have potentially done irreparable damage to your business here. Which is a pity, as you're obviously a talented and well-thought of guy.

Anyway, we all make mistakes, and live and learn. That's my two cents on the matter. Hey, you asked!

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
I have just made a very generous offer to Mr. Herald via email, which I do believe will cost me substancially less than having to do a hunt for free. (Sorry larry and judge, but thanks for the vote of confidance!)

There is obviuosly a lot more to this story than most know, and as I have a business to run, I must withdraw from any attemts to draw me into another fight.

To all the doom-sayers, just ask yourself the question, what would you have done if a critical part of your staff withdrew a few days before the start of TWO very important hunts, hunts for which it was nearly impossible to get other permits for?

Well, someone's gotta' play devil's advocate...

A "generous offer", Karl? Seems to me that doing the right thing, while laudable, hardly construes being generous. Right is right. If it were not, and you truly believed you did all you could and the botched hunt went tits up due to absolutely no fault of your own (I am looking at stretching yourself so thin was a mistake you made that you do have to answer for), and kept your word to hunt TH as promised, I suspect your 'generous' offer would not be forthcoming. No?

To answer your question about what would I do if a critical part of the hunt staff bailed before the hunt: I'd have called off the hunt, explaining everything, including why, and apologized for a shit sandwich fed to me under circumstances beyond my control. I'd then have refunded the deposit of the party that bowed out, with the promise that I'd make it right after if they would be willing to accept the offer. This would have been preferable than the likely potential of having deal with this... But then I think you realize that now. Not only do you have to eat a bit of crow and make things right, but you also have potentially done irreparable damage to your business here. Which is a pity, as you're obviously a talented and well-thought of guy.

Anyway, we all make mistakes, and live and learn. That's my two cents on the matter. Hey, you asked!

+1

If the facts are as Tim reported, and I have no reason to think they are not, I would not pay another cent of my money to hunt with this operator. If I were in Tim's shoes, I would in no way consider an offer that required me to put more of my hard earned money in this guy's pocket a gererous offer and I wouldn't feel comfortable flying to Namibia to hunt with him if someone were paying me to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by dla69:

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

To all the doom-sayers, just ask yourself the question, what would you have done if a critical part of your staff withdrew a few days before the start of TWO very important hunts, hunts for which it was nearly impossible to get other permits for?

How many of those hunts had you promised to personally PH for?

Also, how did the loss of a PH result in a lack of a cook and tracker?

My thought exactly?? Some things just don't add up

I still want to know did PH X have a Leopard permit in his name to guide Tim in Karl's absence?? If not it really does not matter how you look at it this was an illegal hunt, untarnished reputation on not.

Jack you have a PM...I am not going to comment further on the situation while Karl and I are trying to work through this.

quote:

To answer your question about what would I do if a critical part of the hunt staff bailed before the hunt: I'd have called off the hunt, explaining everything, including why, and apologized for a shit sandwich fed to me under circumstances beyond my control. I'd then have refunded the deposit of the party that bowed out, with the promise that I'd make it right after if they would be willing to accept the offer. This would have been preferable than the likely potential of having deal with this... But then I think you realize that now. Not only do you have to eat a bit of crow and make things right, but you also have potentially done irreparable damage to your business here. Which is a pity, as you're obviously a talented and well-thought of guy.

Kamo gari, that is what I tried to do, but where told is impossible. Anyways, I am through with trying to answer alligations, etc, if anyone wants to know my stance on any alligation, PM or email me, I will gladly answer it. But to keep trying to put out fires on an open forum, where there is enough people that question everything anyone says, I really do not have the time for. and no, I am not gonna give more details that can be used against anyone, Tim included.

And BTW, the reason I made the offer is becasue I did believ that that way Tim might get back more than his US$ 4000.

Well Karl,it seems to me you had a great reputaion up till now, and yoou have made a goodoffer to try and write the ship here, but in a couple of days eyedoc will be arriviing there and he is a frequent poster here.If I were you I would make every effort to get a great review from him to try to save your once good name. If he comes back with a bad report, I would guess you have guided your last client from this site for a while and many of us use several other simaler sites as well.For yoour sake, I hope his hunt is all that it could be and then some, and I hope he gets his cat!

Karl made no offer of refund until Tim aired this dirty laundry on AR and Hunt Reports. How anyone can call Karl 'magnanimous' and his offer 'valiant' is beyond me.

What "onefunzr2" said +1....

OK Guys...Karl and I have come to an agreement - I guess the best we can come up with at this point. I am supposed to have some $ in my account by mid-week. My springbok is supposed to come home with eyedoc's trophy shipment, and I am paying for that trophy fee.

When the $ goes in my account, I will consider it case closed and report here. I guess I will live and learn from the experience.

Karl is coming to the plate and making an effort to rectify the situation as much as I guees is possible at this point. For that I say "Thank You".

I feel sure that eyedoc will get the best possible hunt that can be provided, and I hope he kills a monster leopard and everything else that is on his list.

To all who have supported my stance here, e-mailed or PMed me, thanks very much. I really appreciate it. I will now start looking ahead 12 months to my trip to Zim with Buzz C!

I've followed this thread from the beginning. Karl rolled the dice and they came up snake eyes for him. He was in a tough spot and did not make the best choice. With a bit of hindsight I think he'd have done differently but his choice is what defines him.

While I do not think he should or will suffer severely from this, I personally would not book with him. Others will, and I believe this event will make his future hunts of a higher quality than they were before, whatever that level may have been.