quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
GL: Your point is well made.

Not only does a hunter typically have thousands invested in non-refundable air fare, he may have juggled duties and family commitments for months or even years to arrange to be away for two weeks from his job and other obligations; may have purchased a special gun, gun case, ammunition trasport box, camera, etc., just for this one trip. He may have no choice to do anything other than simply agree, grudgingly or not, with whatever modifications to their agreement the outfitter dictates at the last minute, whether the outfitters reasons for the modifications are legitimate or not. If he doesn't agree, he knows he is certain to lose his airfare. At the whim of the outfitter, he may lose part or all of a considerable deposit. In short, when the outfitter calls and says that thing are going to be different than your agreement, you may be in an exceedingly weak position to do anything other than that which the outfitter dictates. Except to air grievance after the fact on AR, that is.

Parenthetically, the outfitter I hunted with in 2007 asked for no deposit. "Just send me your airline booking receipt when you get it. I know you'll show up once you've spent that money", he wrote me.

quote:

Most airfares are non-refundable but the amounts can be applied to future flights if you have to cancel or re-book. I have done this on several occasions as I fly 40 to 50 times a year. It is no big deal if you are dealing with AA or BA or Delta.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
And dogcat, is there a charge for this service?
How much?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Most airfares are non-refundable but the amounts can be applied to future flights if you have to cancel or re-book. I have done this on several occasions as I fly 40 to 50 times a year. It is no big deal if you are dealing with AA or BA or Delta.

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
Trying to take a reasonable approach on these threads rarely leads to high popularity, and this particular thread may be a case in point. Some recent post seem to take issue with my "understanding" of the difficulties this situation presented. Others have asked how to make sure it never happens to them. Having just returned from a trip that was in many ways a complete cluster F&%@, I have asked myself many of these same questions over and over again. As many fine AR members have PM'd, some days the sun doesn't shine or the stars align, and there isn't much you can do about it. I know they are right, and it doesn't make me feel a whole lot better at present, but I will get over it. I suspect Tim and Karl will move on as well, and I am very glad they have come to some resolution.

From my perspective, there are two types of outfits you can book your trip with in Africa. The small, oufit made up of 1-3 PH's, or the much larger multi PH, multi country outfits. Neither is right or wrong, and both have inherent (but different) risks. Of course the middle ground exists as well, but the ends of the spectrum help define the issues. There is little you can do to mitigate some of the inherent risks of each type of outfit.

The small outfit: Generally known for more personalized service, and you generaly make the deal and all your arrangements directly with your PH or his very close partner. Direct communication and getting to know your PH either in person or via phone / e-mail before the trip can build your confidence and rapport. The obvious inherent risk is that your PH / operator cannot take part in your trip on the scheduled day. He could be sick, in a car accident, or even mauled by the leopard the previous client wounded. For whatever reason, if your guy can't conduct the safari on your scheduled arrival, you are pretty much screwed. Most will go to some great effort to arrange a replacement of some sort, but it won't be the hunt you booked, at least not with that PH. I don't see a way to mitigate this risk if you have fixed dates set aside for your hunt. Being willing to delay / postpone your trip even the day before departure may be your only recourse, aside from going along with the recently hatched "plan". You have very little negotiationg power once this situation unfolds. (BTW, this is the type of outfit I personally prefer for most of my safaris.)

The larger outfit: Generally a manager / partner make all the business deals, schedule your trip and communicate with the client. Many such outfits assign the PH only after the deal is complete and dates are set, or even just weeks before the safari. You rarely talk with the PH much before your arrival, and everything is filtered through the business contact. You may need to share a concession and / or camp. Often you won't even see the business manager / partner who negotiated your deal once you are in camp. Juggling 20+ PH's, multiple concessions, available remaining quota, etc., takes considerable skill on the part of the manager. Once you meet with your PH, you have to hope you hit it off, and that your wishes have been accurately conveyed to the PH. There are some very large, well run outfits that do a very good job of this complicated communication. The inherent risks here are more related to not knowing your PH in advance, and how well you will get along, to not knowing who else will be in camp, and if the other clients will not mesh with you and your group. Communication is inevitably compromised to some degree by the middle man. However, even if a particular PH is unavailable, these large outfits will generally have someone else on staff who can conduct the hunt, and you may not even ever realize there was a problem with your originally scheduled PH. A second PH can generally take over even if the PH gets ill during the middle of the hunt (it happens!).
Almost never will you be asked to postpone or change your itinerary once this type of hunt is booked.

There are other obvious differences between the very small and very large outfits, and of course the inevitable mid-sized groups. Great hunts are had by clients using each type of outfit every year. A sterling example of the small outfit would be CMS safaris. An excellent representative of the larger type may be HHK. You can read fine reports about both outfits on this site over and over again. That doesn't mean that every safari conducted by each outfit will be 100% perfect in everyone's eyes. There is inhereent risk in booking with each type of outfit. Open your eyes, understand the risks and choose wisely. Even then there is no 100% guarantee that the trip will go smoothly. The vast majority of safaris go off without a hitch and creat memories that last a lifetime. When problems arise, it is great to see the parties bring their dispute to a mutually agreed resolution.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
The small outfit:

The larger outfit:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Damn, "parenthetically"........there you go again, reading the dictionary when you should've been sleeping.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Dogcat, thanks for your measured reply to my question. I suspect you must be a frequent flyer! My wife had a round trip booked from Jax to Milwaukee to visit a friend. Due to medical problems at the other end she has to cancel/rebook. The cost to do this is about $150 on a $200 ticket (round numbers)! Now, she did book it herself on Expedia or some such place, and I guess this is one of the drawbacks of dealing with such places. I assume direct booking with an airline might result in better cancellation policies.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
The small outfit:

The larger outfit:

What is the consensus about which outfit is more likely to throw you to the wolves when the Russians flash their big wallets?

So I guess my question is how do you predict greed?

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Most airfares are non-refundable but the amounts can be applied to future flights if you have to cancel or re-book. I have done this on several occasions as I fly 40 to 50 times a year. It is no big deal if you are dealing with AA or BA or Delta.

dogcat,

While you may be accurate in this assessment, it probably does not go far enough.
Surely a person who fly 40-50 times per year is likely thereby a "preferred" customer and subject to conditions and favors that the once a year flyer is not!

And there may be penalties and charges in any of these events, making the resulting changed ticket much more expense [still better that losing the whole amount however!]

SAA does allow you to rebook/reschedule your flights, within some paramets, but charges a hefty fee, IIRC $200-$250 and the travel agent will likely want another fee [$200+/-] on top of that as well. SAA allows cancellations and refunds with a penalty of 25% [or maybe it was 33%] - still a hefty penaly but as above better than nothing. [I suppose the travel agent might want a little something too to do this!]

Les

quote:

Always follow the money...
If the Russians have real money (euros or dollars) and a lot of it - they will get the better deal I would suspect.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Tim Herald:

I realize as part of your deal with Karl S that you're not supposed to post any more critical comments, but "mid-week" has come and gone and I'd like to know if you've received the payments agreed upon?

quote:

Originally posted by Vanderhoef:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Tim Herald:

I realize as part of your deal with Karl S that you're not supposed to post any more critical comments, but "mid-week" has come and gone and I'd like to know if you've received the payments agreed upon?

The same question I would like to pose.

Well, Tim? Let's hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Always follow the money...
If the Russians have real money (euros or dollars) and a lot of it - they will get the better deal I would suspect.

Some businesses value their reputation far more than a quick buck. And those are the ones we should be supporting.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
The two principal parties have got together on this one and come to an agreeable (to both) conclusion. GIVE IT A REST FOLKS!!!!!!!! I'm sure Tim will give us a thumbs up when he can.

Brett

quote:

By midweek, last week, I had about 90% of agreed amount in my account. I thought all would be there within a week.

quote:

Originally posted by 8x60s:
Just to everyone in the US, before you throw your toys out of your cots, any outward transfer of funds from SA and Namibia are subject to Exchange Control. If the amount is in excess of the limits of what is authorised to the Banks, special permission have to be obtained from the Central Bank. So do not just jump to conclusions. A few members on this forum has this nasty habit.

quote:

Originally posted by 8x60s:
Just to everyone in the US, before you throw your toys out of your cots, any outward transfer of funds from SA and Namibia are subject to Exchange Control. If the amount is in excess of the limits of what is authorised to the Banks, special permission have to be obtained from the Central Bank. So do not just jump to conclusions. A few members on this forum has this nasty habit.

quote:

If you know about this restriction, I'd have thought that Karl would have known about it before promising delivery of the money.

quote:

Originally posted by 8x60s:

quote:

If you know about this restriction, I'd have thought that Karl would have known about it before promising delivery of the money.

Thse restrictions are reviewed either every year or 6 months, so the person in the street will not know what has changed. These changes are usually decided by parlement or the govener of the Central Bank. On a monthly basis new directives are issued which either restrict certain transactions more or relax certain requirements. This is not communicated to the public but directly to the Banks which are the only entities allowed to deal in foreign exchange. Every transfer has to be supported by documentary evidence.

So in conclusion the man in the street will only find out what has changed once he aplies for a transfer. That is goverment for you. Enough said