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 OK OK--I got it. Blame it on the tooth! By the way, my dentist buddy sorted that little bone out short order. No sooner had my mouth open, he reached in there with some sort of tool, did a little flipping motion, broke it right out before I even knew what was going on! End of story, no more problems! HEH! By the way, that blondie is the 20 inch 416 B&M, but it is now sporting the black ultimate stock shown above, possibly getting ready to go?? Good history lesson on the 416s, thanks. Large Mediums! That's pretty good I can go with that myself. I could easy fall in line with all those classifications you mentioned. I think I agree that those are far more suitable to classify that what we or THEY use today. For instance we all know I have no affection for a 375 anything, so I am in strong disagreement that 375 is included here in Big Bore. It's not a big bore. But I don't pay the fees for the web site either so it's not my call, and even if I did there would be plenty that would not agree with me too! So it's rather moot. Hey I have been thinking again, just briefly last night. Thinking 470. Of course dragged out the Capsticks, but I strongly suspect the barrels are not any good on those guns, and to be honest I really don't care to spend the money on them to get them up to speed. I am not going to take them to the field and I won't be using that case for anything ever. I have too much work to do with the B&Ms plus the MDM. So I will never go back to those rifles. So, if not messing with the Capsticks, thinking of a 470 version of the 500 MDM. Now here's why. I could put 474 in the 2.25 B&M case easy, I imagine it would have a little ghost shoulder like the 500 MDM. But there really are not a big large variety of bullets for 470, most all are 500 gr pills. While the B&M will handle 500 gr bullets, it would be better with 450s or something close to that. Of course it would be no issue to have all the custom made bullets I wanted, but if I put a 470 in the MDM case, or basically the full length Ultra case it has more than enough capacity to handle 500s with ease, and I might even have some 525s made or something like that to play with. I am sure that someone has done a 470 Ultra have they not? I know someone has done 458 and 416 in the past. But I don't recall a 470, but would surely think that would be an easy one to do??? I just got two new Winchester M70s in last weekend in 300 Ultra--perfect for conversion??? Well it's just a thought that ran quickly through last night. I am not really sure I am all that interested in 474 caliber??? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Ok, .475 caliber on the RUM case. I know Z-Hat has his line of full-length Ultra Cats but I believe he stopped at .458 caliber and Jeff has his AR line on the shortened RUM case which stops at .475 caliber. But I don’t think anyone has done the .475 caliber on the full-length RUM case as most perceive that it doesn’t have sufficient shoulder for that caliber. I’d recommend that you go with the MDM case/designation with your new .350” neck length; definitely would be better a better cartridge than the Capstick, matching its velocity at lower pressure level or exceeding its velocity with same pressure level. I would also use the 6-groove 10” twist rate Super Match Grade PAC-NOR barrel. Yep that would be a nice combination. I don’t know why you’d need anything heavier than 500gr FN monometal, but if you do really feel the need then how about a 535gr or 550gr FN monometal in your SST style or perhaps with the JD nose; either would be a deep driver. But I’d say that a 450gr FN with matching HP copper or brass bullets would be more useful than something above 500gr. Just my 2¢. Ha you caught me…I wasn’t sure if it was blondie one or blondie two but either one is quite fetching.  Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim Yes, if I do it would be the 500 MDM squeezed down to 474 and with the .350 neck. Would do it on the Win M70 Ultra action with 21 inch barrel like the 500. For sure 100% 1:10 twist from PacNor. If someone has not already done that it would be the 475 MDM? 470 MDM? Jeffe's would be significantly different as his is 2.55 I think? It's a damn hammer too. But if I have to use that long action I am going with the 2.8 cartridge like the MDM. No you are 100% correct, there is no need whatsoever for anything other than a good 500 gr FN. Good Copper or Brass Noncon HP at 450grs would be a perfect matchup like the 500 MDM also. In fact I don't need the 550 in the 500 MDM either, the 510 gives just as much penetration within just a few inches. How about using your research skills and see if anyone has done this or not??? If not I think I will get one on the board for the near future. Maybe start that this summer? I might could get interested in that. Blondies are turning color, getting darker. The 500 MDM turned really dark, but it was handled an awfully lot from the beginning and I think it soaked up a lot of oil and whatever from handling so much. They tell me myrtle does that, it turns with age to a point. The 416 has not turned near as much or got darker, but it has not been handled that much either. I liked them from the start, but I did not like the fact they turned color and got darker.   When I returned from Australia the 500 really got dark down there???? Not sure why, sun I suppose. I got some new buffalo leather in Feb and took some photos on it. Here is what the 500 Looks like now. The top gun is Claro, then the myrtle, and the 50 is the Turkish.  And here are the 416s.  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Yeah, I know, PIMP Rifles! HEH! I love the wood guns. I must put another plug in for Accurate Innovations. Now one thing I want you boys to realize about these guns. These are not guns built for "work of art" with the super fancy super high grade $5000 stocks and such. These are working guns, go to the field take the abuse and keep on ticking no matter what. So if you look at these and think well that's no big deal, look at this, they are apples and oranges, not the same! These are nice sticks, but they are meant to work and not show. I think the AI stocks are a bargain for what you get. You see every single one of them have the aluminum chassis the action sits in.  This chassis handles every bit of the recoil and the days of busting stocks or cracks are non existent! Don't happen. Can't happen. And I have busted regular stocks that were pinned on these guns! Several times! On the 500 MDM you can forget it, the very best solution I have found is the Accurate Innovations stock with the chassis, which is standard on them. This stainless 500 MDM is fitted with a standard XX Claro stock. Claro is not known for it's strength as I understand. Strong, but it's not dense as myrtle or Turkish or English. Now I am no stock or wood expert, this is what I am told and I am repeating is all! But this Claro stock has given zero issues with the 500 MDM and it is well known for busting everything you put on it.  I just sent Brian the two English XXs they built and he has a 500 MDM ready to go on it next week. The other two are in blueing and such and will be a couple of weeks out. I have a 3rd English that is in the checkering process for the 3rd 500 MDM being built right now. This one that is ready I am keeping as one of mine, yes a 3rd personal one. Can't have too many I suppose! Waiting on a couple of WSM stocks, another XX English and a Maple WSM. Have not made my mind up 100% what to do with those, one will be a 50 B&M for sure but not sure if the maple or the english until I see them? Was also thinking of another 9.3 but not so sure about that either. I renewed some interest in a couple of my older guns that I had lost interest in because they had laminated stocks on them. I found the great deal at CDNN for the Winchester Ultimate stocks and replaced the two laminated guns I had with these. Renewed interest in one of the first 458 B&Ms, a 20 inch gun, now sporting a light camo Ultimate stock. Real pleasure to handle.  I also put one of the Ultimates on the 9.3 B&M to see how it would do. Who knows, one day I might want to take the 9.3 to Alaska for something?  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK one more thing about the Accurate Innovations stocks, while weather does effect the wood, it will not shift because of the chassis. I had this STOCK in Alaska in 2008 for 10 days, the bottom AI Wood Stock. In the pouring rain every single day, all day long. Half way or so through the rain had washed all the oil out, looked like a piece of plywood or something, but never lost point of impact at all, stock did not shift, did not move, nothing. Might as well have been a plastic stock. I oiled up the stock again, good as new and that's what it looks like today. But to be truthful I had it on that 50 B&M that is now sporting the Turkish stock on that trip. I had just busted the factory stock that was on the 50 and had this stock available so I took it. When I returned I put it back on the 458 B&M. It had been fitted to the 458 B&M originally. But a great advantage of having the same type of rifle is that parts interchange back and forth! For instance on this point, scopes are set up the same, does not matter if it's a 50-458-416-9.3 B&M, all set up the same. Say a firing pin or something in the bolt goes nuts on a gun while in the field? Take the bolt out of the other gun you have with you, and go to work! Other than the stock I have never had anything else happen like that while in the field, but it is a possibility and something to at least consider. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, I’ve looked through my wildcat books as well as various research sites…and I was not able to identify a wildcat cartridge in .475 caliber that used the full-length 404 Jeffery or RUM case; full-length belted cases – yes (H&H and Weatherby), Rigby case - yes. So it looks like you’re good to go. I would proffer 475 MDM for this cartridge. To date you’ve named your B&M and MDM cartridges after the groove diameter/bullet diameter…why change now. At a certain point nostalgia falls on its face…unless one is building a Mauser rifle in traditional British African style why would an American attempt to maintain outdated British cartridge nomenclature for the wildcat the rifle will be using?...Especially when it doesn’t relate to either bore or groove diameters. So I think 475 MDM would work just fine in your AI stocked Model 70 Winchester rifles. Very nice looking rifle lineup...And the slight darkening of the Myrtle stocks only adds character to the rifle. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim Thanks! I don't ever recall a full length 475 RUM or 404. But I don't always know everything of course. Very well then, we will make it so right now, right here, today, and screw Nostalgia, I am just about sick to death of Nostalgia TODAY! So 475 MDM it is official. If you want, Mr. Quickload, draw me up a nice drawing of that thing! And we will make it happen! In fact if you do a drawing on it I will send it to Brian Monday and he will send it to Dave and we will get a reamer going for it. 475 MDM it is! Well, yes, the darkened Myrtle is ok, liked it better when it was lighter, I don't know, it just looks a little "dirty" I think. It took me a while to get used to it when it was white, now that it turned it's taking me longer to get used to that? Character it has, especially after hammering those poor little Australian buffalo like it did! Paul Truccolo says that the 500 MDM is the most effective cartridge he has ever seen on buffalo! So I reckon it works pretty good! Thanks Jim Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, I’ll gin up a cartridge and reamer schematic and email them to you later today. Edit: Oops, forgot to ask...300 RUM or 375 RUM length for the case? Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim My schematic hero!!!!!! HEH, neither for length--go to 2.80. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Ok, QD cartridge and reamer data finished, both Metric SI and English SAE, for the 475 MDM Ultra. I'm transposing the data to a reamer print and will email to you shortly. Jim Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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 I heard that! 2.800" long brass! Getting into some intrigue there guys? Hushing up the specs now are you? .475 MDM.  My .458 B&M donor rifle and Pac-Nor barrel will be at SSK tomorrow. Maybe I'll get it back before Brian gets bogged down in a proliferation of .475 MDMs. I might finally have a 6-pound elephant thumper/cattle prod. To Will: Eat your heart out!  | |||
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Hey RIP, This is a Michael & SST thing; I’m sure Michael will post the cartridge specifications on AmmoGuide Interactive like he’s done with all of his cartridges once it becomes a reality…but he’s basically told you what it’ll look like. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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RIP Nah, no real intrigue, just rounded off. The actual specs on the 500 MDM are 2.8, so keep the 475 the same as that. I still do not have the new dies for the 500 MDM yet either. So any samples I have sent out could look better if I had proper dies. Having to be careful with the size die not to turn it down to far. You won't be too long with the 458 I am sure. It will take a couple of months for Dave to do the reamer for the 475 I am sure. But, Brian did get those stocks Friday I sent up, and there is my new stainless 500 MDM sitting there waiting for it, but since I leave Saturday and don't want him to send it that gives you a couple of weeks. I will see if Brian can't put some priority on that for you! I will give him a call! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Fred Zeglin did at least do the prep work for a 470 RUM ... and, yes, it does work, if you blow the shoulder out enough ... pull the accrel drawing, and then just move the datum up or down to have a short or long version since i can hit 500gr at 2400fps with the 470 Accrel, i can't see any reason for going larger .. and since it was, then, cutting edge on headspacing, you would be correct that no one else had done it. cheers #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeffe Thanks for the info, I don't keep up with a lot of things of course. Oh, there is no need for such a critter with yours in the arena no doubt. But you know how it is with the Winchesters, and the M70 done in 300 RUM. Well I figure instead of messing at all with the Capsticks I have, just do a 470 based off my 500 MDM, same neck at .350 and all. I am not looking for increased velocity, nothing of the sort. In fact I doubt very seriously I will even take it to 2400, I will probably stop at 2250 or so anyway. Certainly at that velocity it would be low pressure. So if I do my version we are safe to say 475 MDM and not step on anyones toes you think????? Thanks again! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, As the 475 MDM is based off the updated 500 MDM case specifications so many of the base case dimensions are maintained. Compared to Fred Zeglin’s Ultra Cats the 475 MDM has greater shoulder diameter at .536” vis-à-vis .526”, and less case length than the Ultra Cats at 2.80” vis-à-vis 2.85”; the commonalities are a 30º shoulder angle and use of the RUM case. Comparing the 475 MDM to Jeff’s 470 AR…the MDM is slightly less shoulder diameter at .536” vis-à-vis .540”, a slightly shorter neck length at .350” vis-à-vis .375”, and of course a longer case… at 2.80” vis-à-vis 2.550”; the commonalities are a 30º shoulder angle, the .475” bullet diameter, and use of the RUM case. Edit added: The 475 MDM is long action length while the 470 AR (AccRel) is standard action length...both cartridges needed! You're safe, no toes stepped on. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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nope, no toes stepped on ... the 470 AR was designed as the :first: of the ones, as Dave's 470mbogo.com which IS perfect, was the high water mark ... if action is no question, the mbogo is the answer .. i'll probably have my 458 lott RSM rebored and reworked for that one .. but its HUGE the Ar's shoulder angle is 36.5, for reason's i can't recall right now ... however, murahaha .. i happen to have the reamers on hand, and I am willing to share ... if you'd like to try the 470 Accrel, sir .... (creepy dude's voice from the second hellraiser movie) What's your pleasure, sir? #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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what we REALLY need is a 400gr TSX .475 bullet ... if you don't have that solid shank on the end of the regular tsx, its close! #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeff, Yep 470 AR was first and is the best of the standard length big bore rounds; if Ruger/Hornady come out with bigger standard length cartridges for the M77 series they’d be smart to adopt your AR cartridges. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jeff, Looking at the Turnbull website, he has .475 caliber Barnes TSX bullets available in 350gr and 400gr as well as BND SLDs in 400gr, 450gr, and 475gr variants. Granted the TSX bullets on the Turnbull website are large diameter HP similar to Michael’s .500 caliber SST HPs rather than the typical TSX small diameter HP...But price isn’t outrageous as they’re priced the same at .80¢ each in 100 count lots, TSX and BND SLD, except for the 475gr BND SLD which is $2 each in 100 count lots. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, I couldn't find the link, as I have some of Doug's 350's, I think .. the accident stopped me cold from shooting for 7 months, so I am just getting back into my biggins ... #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I DID do some work with the 400grs.. right before then ... 2500+ and I still had room to go a bit higher .. i am REALLY surprised i didn't post any of the 500 speer gold dot loads .. those things ROCK for plinkers .. dirt cheap, tough as nails .. 2600+ FPS .. no REALLY ... they are .030 PLATED jackets .. hard as a troll's head ... which, when i first designed a short 470, was what I called it .. the 470 trollbane! but that case was a short rigby, which the 500 AR grew out of! #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeff, I’d misplaced my link to the Turnbull website so had to go over to the AR Lever Gun Forum to find a link. Here’s the Turnbull link in case you’ve lost it: http://www.turnbullrestoration...id=19567&catid=19872 And the bullets link only come up on the ‘Shop Turnbull’ part of the website, here’s the link: https://secure.cazbah.net/index.asp?category=20987 Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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thanks! #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The 470 AR rocks! You could just extend the neck to 2.85" Remember the 470 NE has a .75" neck!!! The long neck 470 AR would have a .675" neck.  470 AR long neck... The long 500 grain .470 bullets would fill the whole neck  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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But what happens when you use those lighter weight 400gr BND SLD and TSX bullets?   Less neck seating depth is used to maintain Cartridge OAL. Edit Added: These bullets could also use a better band to shank style and dimensions for better bore riding capability. But they are what they are until someone else produces a better bore-riding style. Perhaps GSC, North Fork, or S&H will step up with better designs if Barnes doesn’t improve the style of the bullets. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Well you can seat as deep as you want. Maybe use the second from the top recess to crimp and throw the 400 grainers up to 2700 fps out of the long neck version. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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and you COULD seat them longer in the AccRel, as I designed them all with overly long throats. i don't have a problem with the 400gr barnes/turnbull's .. Though a slightly more pointy bullet would fly farther... #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Damn Jim, and Jeffe, I forgot about turnbills bullets he had Barnes do for his lever guns! I have not yet went over myself and looked at the bullets, but he has 350-400 and then solids at 400-450 and 475 gr???? This changes my mind about some things I think. OK I have been having some remorse about wasting a good RUM based action on anything other than a 500 MDM anyway! And then too, think about what I have been trying to do for myself over the last 5 yrs, get away from big long heavy guns, to short handy fast. Well while the 500 MDM is not a little gun by a stretch, it is a small gun for the cartridge it is chambered in and the power levels it produces. Both shorter and lighter. But still it ain't no short 18 inch barreled gun and short action. It comes in 3.5 inches longer than a 50 B&M. With good bullets in the 450 gr class a 475 B&M makes a hell of a lot more sense to me, and would be everything I would want in a 470 class gun. WSM actions are a dime a dozen and it would be a simple chore to do a 475 B&M at no cost in more expensive and rare actions like the Win M70 RUM action! I don't intend to do anything half ass, so if we bite the bullet on 470, which I have resisted and skipped over, then we might as well go all the way with it. So here is what I propose we do; We get reamers made for the 475 MDM as we talked about, just to have it on hand. Not sure I will ever waste an action on one myself, but add it to the MDM stable for giggles. Reamers are not that expensive and if I find a way later in life to convert other winchesters then I might do one. I think I can enjoy playing with a 475 B&M on the short gun with an 18 inch barrel! If I don't like turnbills bullets I will design my own and have David turn them out 500 at a time! Probably will do that anyway, why not, hell I need something to work on and keep me going anyway! Since we are doing 470, might as well go all the way with it and do a 475 B&M SUPER SHORT! I don't keep up with all the bullets, but with 350s and 400s on the WSSM action and 16 inch barrels it should be pretty good fun, same as the new 458 B&M Super Short, coming soon, gun finished, waiting on dies! So I say we get us reamers for all three. Once reamers in hand, will do a 475 B&M and a 475 B&M Super Short right off the bat!! Just hold the 475 MDM for later if ever. What say Ye Crew? How's that for a plan? If you guys say "YA" then Jim get busy on drawing up a 475 B&M and a 475 B&M Super Short. Use .250 necks, don't need no long necked giraffe cartridges! 1.65 on the Super Short. 2.250 on the B&M---Oh and the Super Short is a WSM case, not RUM. B&M--2.250 or 2.240? Don't know the length of those bullets????? If we use 2.250, same as the 50 B&M, then can always trim to 2.240 if it fits the bullet better??? And NO--Short necks are fine! So I don't want to hear it! HEH!!! OK so what do we say? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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 I was able to hold the coffee to a few dribbles on the shirt rather than spew all over the computer.I knew it…I just knew when I posted the Turnbull/Barnes bullet data yesterday that I’d be hearing about a B&M version, didn’t think about the SS version though!  I’ll draw them up tonight…have to get back to stripping a couple of walls.Almost forgot...you've a pm comment. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Michael... you have two perfectly useless 470 Capsticks laying there... Run the 470 AR reamer in one or two for a long neck version to get 500 @ 2400 low pressure powerhouse! Regarding the 470 SS This might be a good source of some load info. http://www.feistyrooster.com/475tremor/index.html 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Jim Got it pegged don't you! Well, hell what's a cartridge without a proper bullet huh? What's a cartridge without a proper rifle huh? Takes all 3 to make a system work! For me, decide the rifle, then a cartridge and caliber, then if you can get or make a bullet you need for that cartridge or caliber! Reckon turnbill will sell me some of those bullets, or are they exclusively for the turnbills? I have never seen them for sell outside of turnbill? No rush on drawing them up at all. Work on it when you can. Not sure I am going to have time to send them to Brian and talk with him about all of them anyway. So take your time and do them next week while I am in the Arctic. Plenty of time to sort them out. Then when I get back I will send them to Brian and Dave and they can worry with it from there! Boomy That 475 Tremor is not even close to a B&M Super Short. Does not have near the case capacity. I am using from 45-56 grs of WW 296 depending on the bullet in the 50 Super Short. I will make my own load data for the 475 B&M Super Short and the 458 version coming. That's not hard, pretty easy in fact. Well the damn capsticks are pretty useless but you have it backwards. The barrels are what need to be chunked, and then going to the 470 AR in that action won't work too easy because of retaining the cartridges in the magazine, that's the issue with those guns going to any RUM based case. You can work with a WSM Winchester easy with that case, but the bigger RUMs have to be run on the Win RUM action they did. Now yes, I know that there are folks out there that can make a standard Winchester work with nearly anything, but it ain't easy and it ain't going to be a simple job, nor cheap. And I demand 110% function and retain those cartridges in the magazine under extreme conditions. I will not accept anything less that 110% on this matter. I can get that easy on WSM based (B&Ms) and the 500MDM based on the RUM action. Anyway, I already have too much money invested and aggravation in those capsticks of mine to worry with them. Damn things have been a menace until finally Brian got his hands on them and sorted them out, except for the barrels and that was my fault. Believe me, if it was an easy fix we would be doing it. I do have some questions both Jim and I with some folks about doing just that, getting a run of the mill Win M70 to retain RUM and Ruger based cases and what it would take to do it. So we will see. At least now the capsticks will feed, function, and most important RETAIN the cartridge in the magazine. Straight from Winchester Custom shop--TWICE, they still never retained the cartridges, now that Brian sorted that out they are 110% percent. If I change them to 470 AR, then I would have rifle that shoots well, but will not RETAIN at all, nice single shot bolt actions they would be, AGAIN. Not only that but I took both of them, shortened one barrel to 22 the other to 21, had barrel band front sights installed, and a beautiful Black/blue SSK blueing done on both guns. Nahh, let them stay the way they are with their oversized barrels, I am not going to take them anywhere anyway, still too big and heavy, and too long! HEH, not a bad thought however. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Yeah I know there would be issues going to the larger case but I hate for you to have some useless Capsicks My 470 AR has a 1 in 10 twist and it feeds awesome thanks to Jeffeosso. A 470 on the 375 ruger case should work without many issues though and match the Capstick capacity. It would be a mini 500 MDM Maybe rebore a 416 Alaskan with a 20" barrel for ease and cost of conversion. Yes the 475 tremmor is smaller but thought they might be good for starting loads. The 458 SS has been an idea I thought would be great. Remember me bugging you about that one a few months back? Excited to see what the outcome will be. What will the case length be? Will it be for 45-70 bullets or regular 458 rifle bullets? If the 470 and 450 SS get 400 @ 2150 that will be sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet 500 @ 1800?Maybe use the 620 grain tungsten bullets from extremist458 for a magazine full of truck stoppers. If the 458 SS has a case length of 1.7ish it would be good for 45-70 bullets and the ar15. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomy You are a thoughtful and fine young man, and I appreciate you looking after me! That is no doubt! Thank You! Oh I have no doubt at all the 470 AR is a fine hammer! And now that we have learned so much recently about twist rates, 1:10 in the 470 is very fine! Jeffe is on top of things for sure! As far as bugging me about the 458 SS, yeah I remember. Even though I have oldtimers and forget a lot of things, I recall now. You see, it takes some time to strike me to do some things. From the conception of the 50 Super Short, I drew up a 458 version. Like the 50 B&M 2.25 inch case, before it was finished there was a 458 and 416 version. But when I got the 50 Super Short, I thought to myself, why do I need a 458 version of this? Nahh, I like .500! Well just had to wait for it to hit me to do it, plus I was getting a little bored, and I like something new, I like doing load data and discovering something new, things like that. The DPMS guns have been on the make for about 3 yrs or more. But since I am not really a big semi fan, oh for certain jobs of course, I have plenty of ARs, and HKs and things like that, but they are tools for a job and that's it. But, finally it hit me, go ahead and do that, so now we have the 50 B&M SA, very good and it works, 458 B&M SA rifle is completed now, but waiting on dies and such to get it rolling, Hornady another 3 months or so now. Same with the 458 B&M Super Short, Hornady dies, 3-4 months down the road. So I have it figured like this, if I go ahead and get the reamers in the works, 3-4 months or so the reamers will be done for the B&M 475s. About the time the Hornady dies roll in for the 458 B&M SA and the 458 Super Short. So then we can get to work on 475 rifles and by the time 475 rifles and HOrnady dies are ready for that, then I will have all the load data worked out for the two 458s and will be ready to start on the 475s. NO DOWN TIME, continuous tests every week! FUN FUN FUN! Lot's of shooting! I can't tell you why I finally decided to play 470. I had such a time with the capsticks I was totally off 470, didn't care if I ever saw another one in any configuration or case. Not sure I care now to be honest. But, why not round out the B&Ms and the Super Shorts? Like the 9.3 B&M, it is great, I love it, great medium that takes the place of all my 338s and 358s. But I leave the 375 B&M to JohnOMS, which he now has a gun, but waiting on Hornady dies too! I won't build myself a 375 anything. Now, the 458 Super Short, I don't think it will hit 2150 with a 400 in 16 inches. The 50 Super Short shoots a 400 Sierra and the brass 400s at a touch over 2000 fps. Might get to 2050-2100 fps and stay under the pressure curve. I am sure I can take 350s to 2200 however without any issue, maybe a touch more. For me, I am looking at the 350 Barnes X as being a super hammer for this cartridge. Along side and just under the first shot will be 2 Barnes Banded 330 gr Solids!!!!!!! Real super hammers! The little super short is tailor made for 300-400 gr bullets. The 50 SS will push 500s to a tad over 1700 fps at 60000 psi. It will be faster than 45/70 but won't be 458 Winchester, something in between. BUT REMEMBER---It's not about the cartridge--It's the entire package! 6.25 lb bolt gun, 16 inch barrel, 36 inches overall length and plenty of good 458 caliber bullets, and velocity running say around 200 fps faster than a 45/70 in 18 inches of barrel! The package, the entire package, not just the cartridge which is only 1/3 of the package. Case, 1.65 inches, same as the 50 SS--1/4 inch neck! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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LOL Old timers Anyhoo this will be a better 458 SOCOM. The 45-70 gets 400 up to 2,000 in a levergun and the 458 Socom could be a great source for load info even though the case capacity will be greater. Basically this would be a 45-70 +P in performance. 400's @ 2,000 in the 458 SS would be a reason for a lot of people to raise an eyebrow and say Hmmmmm... That is pretty cool (Self included) I was thinking with a 2.3 max oal you could go all the way to 1.75" case length but loading out is easy cheesy. You keep this place humming Michael!
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I found somewhere that your 50 SS is 68 grains or about the same capacity as the 30-06 necking down to 458 lets guess 65 grains capacity or 10 more grains than the 450 Bush hamster or a few more than the 458 SOCOM with it's 61.6 grains but not the Achilles heel bolt thrust issues with a .532" rim so higher pressure can be used. And if you decide to lengthen the neck a tad to say 1.7" for even more capacity OK back to my time out 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomy Go back to time out please, 458 B&M Super Short reamer made, rifle completed, hornady working on 5 sets of dies. Done, finished, over, take a chill! All will be well! Plenty of capacity, plenty of punch! Hammer of Thor in a 6 lb 36 inch rig. Just wait until I bust some of those 300 gr SSK HP brass NONCONS out at 2500 fps in this puppy! That's where the hammer drops! Might even get myself some of those 100 gr Aluminum rockets out at 3500 fps or so, see how they do? HMMMMMM?????? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK cant change things I understand. The 458 SS will be a great pig hammer!!! getting a 300 grain flat point @ 2500 matching the 375HH nominal load will be impressive!!! Does anyone make a 300 grain flat point solid? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Michael, I loved those 1885's so much I ordered one in .405 Winchester last weekend! I can't wait until it gets in! It is the "Short Hunter" with the 22" barrel and tang sight. Are you ready to develop a .410 B&M yet? See what you have done!?!? "Archery enshrines the principles of human relationships. The Archer perfects his form within himself. If his form is perfect, yet when he releases he misses, there is no point in resenting those who have done better than him. The fault lies nowhere."(Confucious) | |||
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Of interesting note... The 348 Win happens to be the same length and casehead as the B&M series AND necked up to 410 would have the same capacity as the 405 Win. Also known as the 40/348 Win and Qual-Cart even lists the brass. The reamers are out there too. Here are the dies. http://www.springfieldminutemen.com/dies.html Strange set of coincidences. That should save you months of waiting and hundreds of dollars! A rimless 400 Alaskan would be pretty sweet. Load 405 loads and bullets or crank it up to 450/400 power with 400 grainers. Use 405 loads for 405 performance to match your soon to be 1895 Below is a pic of a 416 Alaskan to get an idea. http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd416alaskan.jpg
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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