Calibration run in the Iron Water Board Buffalo:

S&H Brass FN .395/330-grainer: 2400 fps
LBT .396/410-grain LFN Gas Checked and Blue Lubed: 2200 fps
Power Belt 348-grain 50-cal Muzzle Loader: 1800 fps

Before and after bullets:


8" of water first, then 1/2" of plywood, then 1.5" of air in each 10-inch rumen of the IWBB. Ten rumens. 100 inches of Iron Water Board Buffalo Texas Heart Shot.

I barely recovered the S&H FN, as it smacked the tenth board hard, sideways, finally keyholing in the tenth compartment.












I decided to hold off on the GSC FN and test the S&H FN against it with two boards per compartment. I expect they will both do about 7 compartments with two boards per compartment instead of one. I can go up to 3 boards (1.5" plywood), only needed for such as the .666 Teufel, however.

The .396/410-gr bullet I cast from Rippalloy, with LBT mould, held together very well, expanded to over 200% of original .396 diameter, becoming 0.807" wide, and retaining 81.0% of weight. It stopped on the third board but made a huge splash and splintering of boards. Good performance for a cast boolit.
Rippalloy Recipe:
12 pounds clip-on wheel weights
1/2 pound of 95/5 solder (tin/antimony)
1/2 pound chilled shot (size 7-1/2)




The Power Belt disintegrated in the first bucket, so did the first water bucket, and I could find no mark on the first board: amazingly poor performance.
This ML bullet is a coward, afraid to face up to a water boarding, it just went to pieces and was found sniveling on the ground beneath the first compartment of the IWB (three fragments found, including the skirt weighed in sum 8.2% of original weight. It confessed quickly to its weakness.
This is all that was left of the first bucket it struck on entry, and not a mark on the first board:


Will that bullet kill deer? Deer are a lot softer than water impact at 1800 fps if so.

Next, the S&H and GSC showdown: 330-grain Brass FN versus 340-grain Copper FN.

Nice show RIP!!

Will you be stepping up velocity to the full 2800 + FPS for the next phase of testing??

Jay,
It will be interesting to see how they do at 2400 fps and 2800 fps from the 400/395NE and .395 Tatanka, respectively. That will be with two half-inch boards of plywood and 8" of water per rumen, times ten rumens.

Yes, it is time to get the .395 Tatanka back into play.

96 grains of H4350 gave this:

330-grain S&H FN ... 2812 fps

340-grain GSC FN ... 2726 fps

I already have those loads checked out. No pressure problems with either of those. That will do.

Maybe the lesser bearing surface of the GSC gives lower pressure and needs more powder for a little more velocity?

I will say this, the longer GSC HV .395/340-grainer with the same powder charge (96.0 grains of H4350) gave 2801 fps, but it also gave a sticky bolt, pressure sign. I have to back off from that with the HV, a looong one.

Maybe I am maxed out with 96.0 grains of H4350 with the two FN's.

GSC has a weight advantage, and the S&H has a velocity and hardness advantage, for penetration. But will it make enough difference to show any difference in the IWBB? I doubt it.
Soon to see ...

I recalled that I had already tested both the S&H .395/310-grain VeloHex and the .395/340-grain GSC HV in a 5-gallon water bucket train.

They both got to the bottom of the third bucket, with 2600 fps impact, leaving a dent there.

The lighter VeloHex accomplished that by a flip over to tail-forward stabilization after it blew off its nose.

As you drive both bullets faster the softer copper bullet may flatten out at the nose more readily which would decrease it's penetration through the IWB. What effect this has on actual animals or whether it is even beneficial is a variable. Gerard may have some experience with this if he's around somewhere.

The proof will be in the "watering" of the bullets.

RIP,
You've done some intense work in preparing these tests and conducting them. Thanks for the info you've posted. I'm anxious to continue testing my .395 Max, but its getting a teflon coat (mink being to expensive to put on the Ruger MK II hussy).

Max,
Speaking of Hussies:
Are you naming your .395 Ruger Max?
Not fair to name the 400/395NE "Lillie Langtry" and not give a name to her playmate.
BTW, what is your preferred spelling of "Lillie?" I have seen "Lilly, Lillie, and Lily."

As for the .395 Ruger Max duo, yours and mine:

Olivia Hussey
and
Olive Oil

You can have dibbs, I'll take what's left, unless you have something better.

"Olive Oil" will work fine as a playmate for Elvira. So would "Hussey." What goes better with "Lillie?" Your call.

The harder Brass flat point solid will more than make up for the lesser wieght and will not lag behind in penetration

Gotta love it! I'll take Olivia Hussey, since That's what I've been thinking of her...a cheap metal woman (common ore?) that wants to come up in the world. My job is to provide the right touches for her to become a respected member of society.

RIP,

If you have not thrown them away can you let me know what the exit hole on the SH FN looke dlike in the buckets?

They will give a more true idea if they tipped or yawed than the boards.

You were not able to photograph both entry and exit on same photos on most of them.

Did it really keep point forward until tenth?

They looked tipped in the boards but not in first couple water buckets.

Good work and a tough target.

Andy

Not sure I follow your logic on the tipping Andy as the hole could only be made by a tail or nose first entry into the wood on boards 1 through 9. Unless there is some magic self alignment process taking place in the water medium prior to exiting into the wood medium.



If you look closely in the back of bucket number 5 there is an exit hole which shows basically caliber diameter.

Maybe RIP can provide more details on his observations.

Macifej...How long would a 300 grain flat nose 395 be? Seems a .275 SD 300 grain flat nose would be PLENTY. maybe add a boat tail for 300 yard PG shots.

#5 does not look round, thats why I asked.

Andy

Boomer - about 1.33 to 1.35" long if it's the same design RIP is testing here. Longer if you reduce the bearing area.

Andy - what medium/method do you think we should use to better document stability??

Rich used wet frozen sand and there wasn't any instability (errant trajectory) that he indicated. I'm up for developing other tests if you have some ideas we can execute.

I have been using 5 gallon nylon buckets filled with water since about 1978. RIP tried them after I began posting photos of bullets recovered from them here at Accurate Reloading. They work well enough.



This from a 458 Barnes Tripple Shock at 2,550 fps.

If you want a harder "witness plate" that leaves a more accurate measurement than wood, high explosive weapon designers I have worked with usually use thin aluminum as a witness plate.

I used 20mm thick boards to measure stability starting at Quantico about 1982. Here is a 450 Ackley with 1-14 twist.



My only other comment on iron buffalo is to correlate total penetration to same bullet on buffalo or elephant, and keep changing mixture of water and boards until you achieve 90-95% correlation.

Shooting soft points into the water buckets by themselves correlate to buffalo 90 % for frontal area and 95% for weight retention. (I measured my results to the late George Hoffman's colleciton of recovered bullets).

Andy

Andy,
Board #5:


The plywood splinters around the edges of the holes and may mislead, creating an ovoid/irregular appearance sometimes though the bullet is staying nose forward. This one did until it entered the 10th bucket. Look at board #9. The entrance hole in bucket #9 was made irregular by splinters from board #8's exit wound, driven along with the bullet. The entrance hole in board nine is still indicting nose entrance, perfectly straight and centered at the back side of nine:


I read the boards and buckets up close and personal and am confident the bullet stayed nose forward until it pooped out in the 10th bucket of water and then slapped the 10th board side-on and stopped.

Yes, aluminum plates would be great witness boards.

Yes 5-gallon buckets are great test media for soft points, I have only used them laid end to end. You get more water travel per bucket when it is top to bottom of the bucket, with O-ring-sealed lids so they don't leak when lying on their sides, in a train. You also get perpendicular surfaces normal to path of bullet for entrance and exit of the bucket. The bucket bottoms lock into the next bucket lid and create a parallel train:


Why would you want to shoot into their cylindrical sides with them standing up in a row, side-by-side as you have shown them here before?

Sincerely,
Your Humble Student

Jay,
The only thing that puzzles me here is how some of the holes seem to vary in left-to-right location.

I wonder if that shows some veering and course corrections that come from shoulder stabilization after slightly off-normal impact with the boards, if the boards or bucket surfaces are not all perfectly perpendicular to the path of the bullet. It seems that any course changes were small and added up like compensating errors in sum.

That FN brass nose should stay perfectly on course in water, which is perfectly uniform, homogeneous, until velocity drops to the point of loss of "supercavitation."

Here is a two-board-per compartment setup that caught a GSC FN "in the wood":



jwp475,
I guess the cast lead would penetrate better at lower velocity, eh? It would not be as devastating on that first bucket and board however. It did more damage to that first compartment than the disintegrating Powerbelt.

Oh, yeah, Andy:
We have previuosly estimated that two boards per compartment would be the correlating toughness to compare to elephant and buffalo side body shots. One board per compartment correlates to Portuguese-Texan Heart Shots. Three boards per compartment correlates to elephant heads.

From my previous experience, I am guessing that there will be no difference in penetration of the FN brass solid at 2400 fps versus 2800 fps.

The 2800 fps load might put wood splinters into orbit and make it rain in the next county, however.

Here is the old IWB that had twelve 8" deep compartments that would only take two boards per compartment (The new IWBB has ten 10" compartments that can handle 3 boards per compartment, plus 4 inches of armor plate at the end to stop the .666 Teufel.):

Who has the formula for aluminum plates??

Alloy?

Temper?

Thickness?

Spacing?

Filler?

I'm guessing they'll start bending as they're penetrated - the further back in the array you get.

Thinner plates of A36 or 1018 steel would be a lot cheaper and less bulky.

Got an equivalent formula Andy?

quote:

jwp475,
I guess the cast lead would penetrate better at lower velocity, eh? It would not be as devastating on that first bucket and board however. It did more damage to that first compartment than the disintegrating Powerbelt.

Hard cast bullets penetrate extremely well if velocity is no more than 1400 FPS, but as you witnessed when the bullet speed is increased the devestion increases at the expense of penetration

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Hard cast bullets penetrate extremely well if velocity is no more than 1400 FPS ...

I have lived in Missouri, so I just have to "show me" meself. This calls for a 1400 fps test with the .396/410-grain "HCL" boolits, in the same configuration of IWBB used at 2200 fps with the same boolit.

This will accomplish two things:

1) Filler loads or slow powder loads for the 400/.395 NE Righteous, and this will expand the data for all the reloading manuals that will soon be publishing Righteous data.

2) It will give 45-70 Govt. ballistics with a better sectional density, so it will be an excellent squirrel rifle, adding to the versatility of the "400 Nitro Righteous."

Thanks for the guidance, jwp475.

Forget that wandering right and left theory.
I think the right and left was due to the boards being smaller in width than the compartment for ease of drop in. Some the boards were off center, right or left.

I will cut future boards to make a tight fit that will remain centered in the compartments.

A Skilsaw and plywood sheets ... You only get one shot per board and per bucket. Shooting holes in aluminum plates would get expensive, one shot per plate ...

Another thing this has taught me: Do not use Powerbelt bullets in the 50-cal muzzle loader.

Better to get that mould from Lee for $19.95 that casts 320-grain REAL conicals and use Rippalloy at 1400 to 2000 fps: 2 pellets or 3 pellets of 777 of 50 grains per pellet.
SMOKIN'

Macifej,

As I recall they are normally 2mm thick. That would be about 0,05 inch. I can look up specs for you.

It looks like RIP's iron buffalo is slowing down a FN solid within 80-100 inches.

It should probably be correlated more to 60 some inches in my experience on elephant heads and bodies where it is most likely to be used.

So you probably just need to replace water with 10 or 20% gelatin. NATO used 10% for decades. It has only recently been replaced by IWBA 20%. MacPhersons book, Bullet PEnetration gives details.

I am reluctant to suggest more solids (boards) to slow it down, since the FN has less penetration than a RN in a solid.

But the actual penetration of the NF FN's I used was closer to an elephant in boards than water by a long shot. (120 inches in water, 50 some inches in wood, and 60 inches in elephant).

Try the gelatin.

Andy

quote:

the FN has less penetration than a RN in a solid

Based on calculation of frontal area sure. The reality is that RN solids are pretty much worthless as they aren't stable enough to penetrate much of anything. Hard to get anywhere when you're going sideways through the medium.

If ultimate penetration was our only concern, we'd be building hunting rifles around loooong cartridges loaded with pointy Tunsten rods wearing nice little plastic Sabots.

Vanilla Custard....??

quote:

Posted 19 June 2008 13:15
quote:
the FN has less penetration than a RN in a solid

Based on calculation of frontal area sure. The reality is that RN solids are pretty much worthless as they aren't stable enough to penetrate much of anything. Hard to get anywhere when you're going sideways through the medium.

Macifej,

Following is short list of bullets I have tested through boards.

As you can see, it is extensive.

That is why I say, with some authority, that the RN penetrates more in a solid like a board than a FN.

Problem using boards inter-spaced with water is the FN does not behave in most animal parts like it does in a solid. Even a bone or molar is more complex than a solid.

Andy

# Of Boards Caliber Bullet Velocity Twist Comment

450 Dakota

70 450 Dakota 500 Hornady FMJRN 2,397 fps 1-12 Angled downward last 10 boards.

68 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,538 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. No tipping or bending.

67 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,563 fps 1-12 Tracked straight despite hit near L edge.

62 ½ 450 Dakota 450 Barnes RN 2,555 fps 1-12 Tracked straight.

54 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,467 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. Velocity matters! Perforated 13 less boards than 200 fps faster test shot.

54 450 Dakota 400 Barnes RN 2,676 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. SD matters! Same penetration as 465 grain A-Square @ 2,467 fps.

52 ½ 450 Dakota 450 NorthForkRN-FN 2,527 fps 1-12 Sharp edge to meplat. 367 diameter. Slightly concave. Just barley tipped.

52 ½ 450 Dakota 450 NF TC-FN 2,612 fps 1-12 Telescoped less than 0.005 inch. Less than 0.008 expansion. Modest tipping.

47 450 Dakota 450 GS FN 2,524 fps 1-12 Expanded to .431 meplat. Tipped for pitch and yaw about 45 degrees. Damage to wood from 33 boards onward.

39 450 Dakota 450 NF-CP 2,617 fps 1-12 Expanded to .465 x .470 caliber (much less than in water). 75% of penetration of NF-FN.

33 – 43 450 Dakota 500 Kodiak FMJFN 2,407 fps 1-12 Expanded to .65 caliber. A lot of damage to wood like a soft point from 12-14 boards onward.

458 x 404 (Similar to 460 GA).

71 1/2 458 x 404 500 Hornady FMJ 2,367 fps 1-10 One to two more boards than 1-14 twist which had slightly higher velocity.

71 1/2 458 x 404 500 Hornady FMJ 2,367 fps 1-10

48 458 x 404 450 GSFN 2,450 fps 1-10 Perfectly straight bullet path.

46 458 x 404 500 Hornady FMJ 2,334 1-10 Hit left edge. Exited side of stop-box. Tipped at 40 boards (13 more than 1-14 twist). Penetrated 10 boards more than 1-14 twist. Threw wood 30 feet!

28 458 x 404 500 Barnes X 2,334 1-10 Very unstable. Expanded and turned 180 degrees. Fully sideways at 23 boards, traveled base forward until the 28th. An upward climbing wound profile like 5.45 x 39mm.

450 Ackley

70 1/2 450 Ackley 500 Hornady FMJ 2,400 1-14 One to two boards less penetration than 1-10 twist.

69 1/2 450 Ackley 500 FMJ 2,400 1-14

36 450 Ackley 500 FMJ 2,400 1-14 Exited side of stop-box. Tipped at 27th, and fully sideways @ 31 boards. Ten boards less penetration than 1-10 twist.

458 Winchester (BRNO 602 with 25 inch barrel).

62 458 Winchester 500 FMJ 2,030 1-10 (Down-loaded 458 x 404). Penetrated 3-4 more boards than standard twist.

59 458 Winchester 500 FMJ 2,021 1-14 Circa 1980 Remington/FMJ

58 458 Winchester 500 FMJ 2,105 1-14 Federal Premium/FMJ

39 ½ 458 Winchester 450 GSFN 2,050 1-12 200 fps less velocity than possible in a full power .458 WM.

23 458 Winchester 510 RNSP 2,105 1-14 Expanded. Federal Premium.

21 458 Winchester 510 RNSP 2,021 1-14 Expanded. Circa 1980 Remington.

416 x 375 Improved (Similar to 416 Remington or Hoffman but with 1-10 twist).

71 416 x 375 Imp 410gr Kynoch FMJ 2,400 1-10 Three shots. Very consistent performer.

375 Improved (Similar to 375 Weatherby or 375 JRS), 22 ½ inch barrel.

71 375 IMP 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8

70 375 IMP 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8

50 375 IMP 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8 Exited side of stop-box. 13 more boards than standard twist that exited.

375 H & H (22 ½ inch barrel)

65 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-8 Penetrated 4 more boards than standard twist.

61 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-12 Same results twice.

37 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-12 Exited side of stop-box.

7.62 mm NATO

22 FN FAL 147 gr FMJBT 2,800 fps 1-12 Recovered base forward. Began pitching at 14 boards, and completely side ways at 18 boards.

7.62 x 39mm

17 AKM 123 gr FMJFB (lead core) 2,340 fps 1-7 1/2 Yawed after 5 boards.

5.56 x 45mm

11 M16 A1 55 gr FMJBT M193 3,250 fps 1-12 Turned over and broke in two at canelure on 8th board.

13 M16A2 61 gr FMJBT SS109 3,050 fps 1-7 Turned over and broke on 11th board.

5.45 x 39mm

10+dent 11th AK-74 52 gr FMJ w steel core. 2,950 fps 1-7 1/2 Turned over on 2nd board.

ROTATIONAL VELOCITIES FOR TYPICAL BIG BORES.

Rotational Velocity (revolutions per second)
Velocity 1-7 1-8 1-10 1-12 1-14 1-16
(ft/sec)

2,000 3420 3000 2400 2000 1700 1500
2,100 3591 3150 2520 2100 1785 1575
2,200 3762 3300 2640 2200 1870 1650
2,300 3933 3450 2760 2300 1955 1725
2,400 4104 3600 2880 2400 2040 1800
2,500 4275 3750 3000 2500 2125 1875
2,600 4446 3900 3120 2600 2210 1950
2,700 4617 4050 3240 2700 2295 2025
2,800 4760 4200 3360 2800 2380 2100
2,900 4959 4350 3480 2900 2465 2175
3,000 5130 4500 3600 3000 2550 2250
3,200 5472 4800 3840 3200 2720 2400

RIP,

"Waterboarding" is torture.

You da man!

Excellent!!

No need for me to test anything then - I will forward them to you for evaluation.

What's the max COAL for your .458" rig?? I have something "special" for you to test....

Sorry noob questions...

RIP I don't quite understand how the test is done. Does each bucket have water?
Do you alternate a plywood board in front of each (water filled?) bucket?

Also like how many of those buckets are sacrificied in testing? It looks like 1 shot is the life of each bucket!

MANY buckets and they are all deceased...

Andy,
O.K., let's give roundnose bullets credit for staying on course in solid wood, being "side-stabilized" in wood, enough to overcome their nose-destabilization.

FN's are stabilized in all media by shoulder stabilization from the nose shape, and also the same "side stabilization" in wood.

And both bullets will go farther in wood with higher velocity, in a linear fashion, though RN's will go farther than FN's due to the lesser resistance at nose.

Of course adding water to the mix adds to FN stability and decreased resistance in the water for the FN compared to the RN, and exponentially increased resistance as velocity increases for both RN and FN... then the RN gets blown out of the water and wood combo: Waterboarded!!!

Game animals give increased resistance with velocity too, eh? FN's stay on course better in game animals than RN's too, eh?

Are we not in complete agreement except for the Jello?

Demonical,
The plastic trashcan full of water comes before the board:
bullet >>> water/board/water/board/water/board ... water/board

Hence, "waterboarding" bullets.
Torture!!!

One shot per trashcan and board. I cannot even reuse the water, since it soaks into the blackberry patch or gets turned into vapor while falling out of the sky after each shot.

Consistent from shot to shot.

I stop by WalMart whenever I have less than 100 trashcans on hand and buy all the 9-quart Sterilites I can find ... every WalMart I pass by gets checked for trashcans. Hopefully the demand/sales will keep that little trashcan going.

The sides of that can are almost vertical and parallel, front & back. If you compress the cans between two boards they do become vertical-and-parallel-front-to-back. Adds to the uniformity and consistency of the medium.

The first Sterilite in the train may blow to smithereens, like with the hard cast lead bullet at 2200 fps.

Humpty Dumpty! All the kings men could not put that back together for another shot. Very deceased! No danger of a charge at all.



I agree completely with all you say ... except for

Thanks RIP!

I heard a great idea for Secret Service/US Military bullet testing, actually done at Oak Ridge, Tennessee during development of the powdered-tungsten-cored bullets in .223 and .308.

.223 bullets were about 70 and 90 grains.
.308 bullets were 173-grain and 200-grain.
I actually have in my possession 100 of those 200-grain bullets.

Bubba, the designer of these bullets, got a truck load of 200 to 300-pound live pigs, fifty of them. They simulate human targets well.

Bubba would put each pig on a 10-foot leash.
Bubba walked each pig to the target spot, at various ranges up to 600 yards from a world renowned sniper.
Bubba would stand 10 feet from the pig, holding the leash, with highspeed cameras rolling, as the bullets impacted the pigs.

I hear it is all recorded on DVD's.

That is real trust by the designer in his sintered tungsten design. And Bubba has some big brass ones.

I assume it was for show to sell the frangible bullet designed for collateral damage reduction.

I assume the pigs would have a feeder trough at the impact site, so they would stand still with snout down while feeding, with Bubba standing 10 feet plus arm's length away, holding the leash.

Possibly a pirated image from the testing?:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I assume the pigs would have a feeder trough at the impact site, so they would stand still with snout down while feeding, with Bubba standing 10 feet plus arm's length away, holding the leash.

Possibly a pirated image from the testing?:

Nah....that's a Chinese Fire Jumping Travelling Circus Pig....

Barnes has some new home-made weight maker tungsten composite in the tail of some of their bullets.

I got that covered...

Heh, heh, I better get back to ripping plywood sheets into proper size rectangles ... showdown tomorrow.

Macifej,

I am not really suggesting you use aluminum as a witness plate. RIP is going to get pretty close to correlating the water buffalo to an actual one by using 3/4 or 1 inch of wood.

You just need to make sure the test medium accurately duplicates the RN instability in water or elephant skull (33-39 inches in my experience), vs about 60 inches in elephant.

So you need to knock down about 60 inches of water penetration for the FN!

Just for laughs, hwere is one of the test rigs I was referring too. This one for a "european" cruise missile.



(The Russian targets were armored and much tougher target array). Note this has one steel plate representing the warhead.



20 mm pyrotechnically initiated explosive round. Should do pretty well as a stopper cartridge!

Otgher targets likje airplane wings were alot more simple.



My test rig for the FMJ and monolithics was just a Lagrange stop box. I used htis to test military ctgs many years before I ever heard of Lagrange. To me it was a "medium foilage" simulator.



RIP's test rig will do abetter job.

What the Lagrange stop box IS good for is comparing relative penetration of different calibers. Just does not work w RN vs FN.

Take home lesson from military targets is to closely correlate your test medium to your actual target!

PS Thanks for offer of special rounds. A short 500 grain (tungsten) would be pretty special.

Andy

Should I make a few .395" solids with a full RN for comparison??

Be interesting to see how they compare to the FN's in the IWB.

Why don't you just order up a truck load of cut squares from LeeRoy and ElRoy's Lumber?? All that Skilsawing is gonna mess up your trigger finger Boss!!

Jay,
Don't even bother with any RN design. Not worth even considering. We are down to the fine points of brass versus copper truncated cone FN design.

Iron Water Board Bovine contest tomorrow: The .395 Tatanka goes up against the IWBB. 2700 to 2800 fps FN's with the 2-board-per-rumen configuration of the IWBB.

I get the 4ft x 8ft plywood ripped at Lowes into 12"-wide x 48"-long pieces, and truck them home, and cut them from there. I get half the cutting done for me that way.

A RN that turns 180 degrees in elephant stomach (secum?).



Major Power!



Andy

Andy,
Going sideways they don't go far through elephant crap. That might be the cecum at the start of the colon, where the terminal ileum dumps into the colon and the appendix comes off of the cul-de-sac that is the cecum.

That does look like fresh elephant crap and apparently the ileum was terminal for the bullet and the elephant.

Major power: Is that 20mm?
If only we could all afford to drive SUV's with one of those mounted for commuting. Drivers would be more polite, and road rage would be less problematic.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP: road rage would be less problematic.

Or more decisive.........

Jay,

Dont bother w the round nose design. Plenty of data already available on RN vs FN in water.



465 grain 458 RN at 2,500 fps 33-39 inches 2nd and 3rd water tank), vs. + 120 inches for 450 grain NF FN (last tank).

Penetration in water tanks was almost identical to both body shot and head shots on elephant.

Still you've got a product to sell and you might want to publish comparisons.

Ron,

It is a 30 x 113 mm. Same ctg as used in the AH-64's electric chain gun, but this one is self powered for ground use.

I hit the aircraft wing segment in the previous picture with this heavy machinegun firing semi auto at about 2,000 m.

But I cant hit an elephant brain at 9 paces!

Andy