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Please explain why grooves are better than bands. Grooves may not slip as much as the banded ones like North Forks, but what does it really matter. Seems like moving more brass than less copper due to their width is going to cause higher pressures, more wear, etc. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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The primary disadvantages of a "driving band" design are that you have no place to crimp the case and neck tension is very low. In a target load those may not be concerns. In a military or Dangerous Game load you can bet a reliable crimp is important. Don't think so..??? I think one of Gerards customers might disagree. He was very nearly flattened by a Bull Elephant cause the case sheared the front "Driving Band" off on a follow up shot. Was it the customer's fault? Doubt that. Depending on bore versus bullet diameters the "Driving Band" design could actually have more bearing surface since it's intended to be a bore rider with perpendicular rings used for gas sealing. How good is the gas sealing? Can't tell ya cause I didn't test em. Barrel wear?? Unless your barrel was made by Mattel I don't think so. I have personally launched thousands of the old Barnes Aluminum Bronze non grooved solids with no barrel degradation. If someone has a couple hundred grand to quantify any minute differences in testing let me know and I'll send you some bullets. If someone has another couple hundred grand and wants to do some proper pressure/velocity testing of various bullet types and loads, let me know same offer stands. Hey if you follow Gerard's logic, his copper bullets should cause more barrel wear since copper is harder on tooling.  He'll be along shortly I suppose to explain how the earth is flat and we should do the world a favor by selling bullets for half what it costs to make them. Sounds like something ol Karl Marx would say... | |||
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I see I need a better BHN tester for personal edification. Been meaning to get one better than the LBT "tool." Yes, the driving band designs like North Fork FP (Flat Point) and CP (Cup Point) solids, as well as the GSC FN and HV and SP, but not the North Fork grooved soft points, have been very tricky to maintain neck tension and a good crimp. However, one can usually find a standard or custom Lee crimper or some other "make-do" die to fortify the crimp. I really have not found much difference between full bearing bullets vs. grooved vs. drive-band bullets regarding velocity and pressure effects. They are all fully engraved and moving down the barrel before peak pressures are reached. I think bullet length and net case capacity issues are far larger in their effects. The copper "true drive bands" are easy on antique double rifle barrels, regarding not causing the rifling to show on the outsides of the barrels nor causing the barrels to slit or separate along the rib. That is their best recommendation. The same can be said about the S&H "gills" whether brass or copper, I think, and certainly easier on them than steel FMJ's. The S&H gills have lots of room to displace the engraved metal. Minimal surface engraved, and better crimping configuration to boot. Also the tapering up to full bearing as each "band" of the gill enters and seals the rifling has got to be a good thing. The sub-rifling-land-diameter of the bottoms of the gills might even be easier on antigue double rifle barrels. How often is a drive-band bullet going to truely match the barrel groove diameter AND the land diameter of that antique barrel? Time is money regarding price of bullets. What price can be put on waiting 1 week versus 1 year to get a bullet, just for comparative purposes, or hypothetical instance?  | |||
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Clsoe up of free machining brass.  Dark spots are lead. Easy and cheap to machine. Patnet on TCCI and A-Square describe FMB. So anyone else who uses same formula is just a FN A-Sqaure. If Woodleigh produced a FMJ FN with lead core, steel jacket w copper coating, all the monolithic CNC machines would be out of business. Andy | |||
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Originally posted by Andy: Clsoe up of free machining brass. Dark spots are lead. Easy and cheap to machine. (it's all easy to machine with the right gear) Patnet on TCCI and A-Square describe FMB. (assuming you're talking patent - only a fool would write a patent with a material specified) So anyone else who uses same formula is just a FN A-Sqaure. If Woodleigh produced a FMJ FN with lead core, steel jacket w copper coating, all the monolithic CNC machines would be out of business. (they could easily do that but it would still be a cup & core bullet) Lead is going bye bye sooner than later so all you lead heads better start planning now.  Andy | |||
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Look it up, they did. | |||
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I believe you Andy...it is A-Square we're talking about. | |||
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Hey Macifej I see a man who knows more about making bullets than GSC and Northfork put together. In fact it seems that you know more about making bullets than anyone else. That puts you into a very exclusive group. Shootaway and Warrior also think they have all the knowledge. Most industries have people like you it is nothing unusual. How come Gerard could predict how his HV will react in RIPs testing and you could not predict what your expanding bullet will do? Now that you have been exposed we know to take your so called advice from whence it comes. Have fun. | |||
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Did Gerard call you on his buddy phone and ask you to help him out of the corner he's painted himself into? Figures. Hey Rat Motor - you should go back and read all the stuff in this thread carefully and see who's been exposed. Unlike your buddy, I haven't made any claims I can't support here or anywhere, unlike your buddy I actually let my customer decide whether something works or not. Interesting thoughts about expanding bullets since I've never shipped any to anyone. | |||
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Hey Macifez I have not spoken to Gerard for quite a while. I got some bullets from them last season and that was by mail. The operative term here is "or not" as you do not know yourself. I would be very worried if I have to buy auto parts from a supplier who makes parts designed by every Tom Dick and Customer. You deny all knowledge of these!! Sort of like politicians debating the meaning of the words yes and no.  | |||
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Cute! A fragmenting solid as advertised. Performance unknown at time of manufacture, design requested by customer. Results - accurate and lethal. Got anything else to show me?? Side Note - I've been thinking lately that this little brass solid w/grenade topper works better than most copper expanding HP's and I might make more of them. That might suck for the cult of marshmellow bullets if this little experiment turns out to be a better performer. | |||
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RIP, I'm not really interested in arguing about any of this; just trying to learn something. It is only anecdotal, but have found that it usually takes a couple grains less powder to get the same muzzle velocity with the NF solid than the cup and core steel solid. That implies to me that the peak pressure is lower because less force is required to get the bullet going down the barrel, but just speculation on my part. It could also mean that the NF just happens to make a better gas seal in my barrels; a better fit by coincidence maybe. As to the crimp issue, the bearing surface area of banded and grooved bullets could be the same and not make much difference in neck tension. The slanted grooves of the S&H bullets should make it easier to crimp though, if that is an issue. From my elementary loading technique, the lack of a rounded base on the NF seems to pop open the case mouth and hence if the bullet is not exactly aligned, the neck tension is reduced. This seems easily changed or something to consider in a bullet for handloading. Not that the S&H is not a better design for crimping but I have not had a problem with the NF bands in my limited experience. In a double rifle there is not the issue of a magazine box pounding bullets back into the case from recoil. On the other hand there has to be enough neck tension/crimp to keep the bullet from slipping out from the recoil. If only to be used in doubles, single-shot rifles there would be no need for anything other than a short nose cone, which I would presume would further increase penetration. From a hunting standpoint I am completely sold on the FN bullets (of course). Just glad someone/somebodies  came up with the idea.But in my opinion they are only of much value in the pursuit of the 1000 pound plus critters which in reality limit their application. Even on Cape buffalo I would not use them as a good soft will kill much faster than s solid. Under the unusual situation of coming up on a wounded buff, a FN solid could be loaded for a Texas Heart Shot, if the buff was standing or lying lengthwise. As I see it, the FN solids are most useful for elephant, and from my standpoint, that is a good thing. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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ratmotor, Blame, my impatience with GSC, and the complicity of prof242, aka Max, for the birth of that "high tech" bullet as well as the "low tech" brass FN solid that penetrates better than the 10-grain heavier and same length GSC copper FN. I call that bullet the "S&H VeloHEX." Explodes the nose off at 1600 fps or 2600 fps in water and then retains 100% of the weight after that.  It quickly tumbles and then continues straight-line penetration out the offside of elk-size game. Ask max. I believe that is the first bullet done with SHark gills too, and that part of the design was a surprising finishing touch by Macifej, aka Jay. Hey, it works, and is very accurate.  | |||
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Andy, Macifej, Gerard, Metallurgists At Large: Is there some reading on alloys to describe the nomenclature, specifications, properties, etc., of these various alloys of copper and brass appropriate for bullets? Thanks in advance to sumbuddy who know. | |||
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Hey Macifej
You are real slick...... Why did Rip think it is an expanding bullet? After all he said on 29 November last year "Looks Kosher. Will expand into a six-pointed star. S&H Death Star Bullets in .395-caliber." On 1 December Rip said "The idea with the SHark .395/310-gr BTHP is to see if it will start to open up at around 1500 to 1600 fps and keep its petals attached up to about 2400 to 2500 fps" On 17 December we saw pictures of these bullets that were broken at all speeds that Rip tried. He commented "Now we know why monometal hollowpoints are made from copper instead of brass. Yes, copper is needed, but brass will do if that is the only .395 BTHP bullet in adequate supply." After the fact you covered up by saying "this is the Elk Grenade bullet we are calling the Shark. It was designed to explode into small pieces and leave a large mass to penetrate further." The next quote from you is the truest words you have said.
How is that again? It blows the nose off when it hits at any speed. I thought this is not desireable. After that it tumbles. How is it acceptable for your magic bullet to shatter and tumble but any other bullet that does this is not? On 17 December you admitted "The real test remains their performance on Bison or Elk. Does the body of the bullet penetrate in a predictable manner or?" You did not know. You were guessing. So waht have you got? One elk killed is what youve got and the fact is that you still do not know. You boast about your incredible fantasmagorical machines with accuracy to a trillion zeros. Your exploding bullets were seen to be a grain off the weight. Rip made a good call when he summarised on 17 December with "And for comparison to the GSC HV where the petals were found in the third bucket insted of the first, same powder charges, velocities verified in the 1600 fps, 2500 fps and 2700 fps ballparks" What do you want to do next? Debate the meaning of yes and no?
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Rat Motor you're fishing Bubba... A) Every copper bullet made will blow it's petals off at speed X into medium Y. You want to quantify that for the home audience smart ass?? B) You can cut & paste and contort all you want but the reality is the bullet you're talking about was an experiment. If I wanted to make copper expanding HP's like everyone else that would be easy wouldn't it?? C) These bullets that you posted here don't look much like anything I've ever made now do they?? No they don't - so that makes you look real smart. D) A few of us are wondering whether you have a comprehension problem or an agenda?? Which is it Mr. Rat?? Do you wanna tell us what your issue is or are you just sticking up for your buddy who makes accusations and claims about someone elses work and then somehow doesn't expect to get the same kind of review?? Are you on the GSC payroll or are you just another Cyber-Whacko with nothing to add?? Do you make your own bullets is that it?? Do you wanna show us how great your stuff is? | |||
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Crickets...???? | |||
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Hey Macifej A. OK Quantifying. In Rips experiments your shiny sharkbullet broke every time from 1600 to 2600. That is not too good. The GS custom HV (which I use in my 308) retained full weight at 1600 and lost all the petals at 2700. Rip said if Gerard can make that happen he walks on water. B. From what I read here on the forum the 395 caliber GS custom HV was also an experiment. But it worked as predicted. Did yours? C. They dont look like your bullets except for the gills. Gills are nothing new. Some of them lean the other way but after your sharkbullet tumbled the gills lean the same direction. How smart do I look now? D. I confess to an agenda. I see you slating a product that I found impeccable in how it works. I see you slating a man I have come to know as knowledgable and helpful in the extreme. Everything he has taught me turned out to be an improvement over what has gone before. My agenda is that I will stand up for him if no one else will because you have no right to make the statements that you have made. I do not make bullets I use them. You are unraveling at the edges and looking to side track the real issue. Life is tough when a simple motor mechanic can do that to a "genius" like you hey. Your base nature is starting to show you should cover it up.  | |||
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Sorry that I've shattered the image of your idol there Mr. Rat. So what you're basically telling the whole world is that you dug through all the old shit posted here over a couple of days in a feeble attempt at producing some evidence that Gerard's product is perfect and mine (or anyone else trying something different) is shit and that somehow because I made some unusal bullets with unknown performance characteristics - I'm disingenuous? Well that didn't work out to well did it?? You should probably stick to working on those Chevy's cause your critical thinking skills aren't so hot. FYI - there is a whole Army of Gerard worshippers out there not just you and I hear from them all the time. Some have great things to say and some not. I suggest you go back and reread this thread again and identify where things went south for your hero. If you can grasp the logic there you might come to the realization that your efforts here were in vain. As far as my nature is concerned it's very predictable here in cyber-land. Have some laughs and all is well. The only "side-tracking" I read here is your contrived story and your total lack of intellectual honesty. Petty little stunts like this make you look stupid and force the rest of us to devolve to your level. Tell your mentor hello for me Rat - sorry all of this came about cause he just can't deal with the reality that brass penetrates better than copper....that's really what this was all about was it not?? No need to reply Rat...you made your point and I have to go make more exploding brass bullets now. Turns out they work really well Rat...maybe you should try some. | |||
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RIP, Get yourself a copy of: COPPER ROD ALLOYS FOR MACHINED PRODUCTS, from Copepr Development Association (CDA). 260 Madison Avenue, NY, NY 10016. My question for monolithic bullet makers is this: For a non deforming solid, which characteristic is more important, Tensile Strength, Fatigue Strength, Shear Strength, or Yield Strength? All alloys are rated by CDA for these characteristics plus many others like electrical conductabilty which dont apply here. Macifej, You said, almost gleefully, that "Lead is going bye bye sooner than later so all you lead heads better start planning now. Wink" Fortunately I have a lifetime supply of bonded Bitterroots in caliber 375 and almost a lifetime supply of bonded 458 North Forks. (I could use another couple lifetimes though!)  Here is why I dont like monolithic HP's.  458 Barnes X at 2,700, 2,500, 2350 fps. I am not impressed. I guess I feel about bonded lead bullets like the late Charelston Heston felt about guns; "From my cold dead fingers." Compare to North Forks above at 2,750 and 2550 fps. Andy | |||
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Andy - not gleefully but satirically. It's already started here and at some ranges and who knows where else. I think it will be another 5 years before there is some far reaching legislation on manufacturers. If ammo manufacturers aren't allowed to produce them you will be on your own in the garage. If ranges and hunting areas don't allow them then your viability is gonna get pretty small. Density, Tensile, Yield, Cost, machinability, and chemistry in that order. Save those NF's they may be worth a lot of $$ in the future. | |||
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While you fella's de-bait  the merits of brass vs copper I'll take the LBT Rippalloy boolit..It hung together beautifully and expanded nicely...for deer, blackbear, moose or elk it should do the job and do it well...The only thing left to do would be to find the maximum range at which the boolit will expand and adjust your alloy if need be... Have fun!.... | |||
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Don't forget to ask RIP about his secret ingredient in the RIP-alloy formula.... | |||
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Buffalo Piss???..er Trace | |||
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It's not bad actually. Got a nice edge but smooth and drinkable. | |||
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Hey Mac, You flatter yourself. The only thing that has been shattered here is your ego. From my perspective you have a long way to go and the journey has started down the wrong path. The one of ego. You are right about something. Searching the content of the forum is tiresome if the search subject is you. Lots of knowledge about politics and booze. Little substance about the real subject. It was much easier to find facts searching Rip. The final tally is that there are no failures reported with GS custom product and yours work well in your own mind and as long as the target is frozen or somehow not related to real life. Except that one elk which proves nothing. In Africa we shoot animals that size with calibers half the size of a 395 and half the weight of your shiny exploding bullet. Produce a product that works in real life and maybe you will then be qualified to comment on what other manufacturers are doing.  Now that you have exposed yourself you can jabber all you want. We know what you are made of and it aint pretty. What tools have you used in your last couple of replies to me. Little fact when challenged technically. Lots of mudslinging and insults and veiled accusations. Much inuendo about dissatisfied customers. No fact.  You are not worth any further time from me. I will learn from people who have walked the walk. | |||
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Yaaaaawn....  | |||
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Andy, Thanks for that reference. The MacPherson book was another excellent reference from you years ago. Macifej, Non carborundum illegitimi, and thanks for those links to metallurgy in the PM. Rat Motor, Thanks for livening up the thread. It's all good, this discussion. Low Wall, Yes, Rippalloy is great! My only problem with the .396/410-grain LBT LFN is that I have to use .416-caliber gas checks on them and cannot get them caliber specific unless I get them special made, or make my own. Not bad accuracy though. I am shooting for accuracy next trial with these .416-caliber gas checks sized down to .396. PTE' PEE: This is pronounced "tee-pee" and is Lakota-Sioux wording for bison cow (pte') urine (pee). At least that is what my Lakota language training has taught me. Pte' pee is indeed a "buffalo trace." Regarding Rippalloy, you can heat treat it to harder than Linotype, just like plain wheel weights, but it will pour prettier and more precisely. The water dropped result looks to be fine for general purpose at 1400 fps to 2200 fps, and BHN of about 15. The recipe: 12 pounds of clip-on wheel weight ingots 1/2 pound of 95/5 (Sn/Sb) solder 1/2 pound of chilled lead no. 7-1/2 2 ounces of Buffalo Trace: not for use as flux!!! I am sure you can figure out what to do with the ingredients. I am headed from Orlando to Tampa for a Busch Gardens Africa Safari!!!  That is the reason for no IWBB shooting lately. Later ...  | |||
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I'll be doing the "grinding" from here on out... | |||
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RIP how about babbitt? From the site:
Especially:
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RIP, get the Brinnel hardnes up to 20, 22 and then at 1400 FPS or a little less they will penetrate very well, not as deep as the mono metals solids but very well. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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My boolits are better than your boolits-. oh yeah this is a productive discussion.Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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No doubt. The guy flapping his mouth most of the time (have you ever noticed how most of his posts are not pertinent to the actual discussion?) is full of beans. Hey Macifej, if Gerard's bullets suck so much then why did you contact me to work for him? That was only a few months ago. Did you change your mind? We haven't. Clearly you have idle time on your hands...and machines. Don't bother replying as I won't be checking for your response._______________________________  | |||
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Here comes the peanut gallery... Bryan - I think that comment was directed at your buddy not me. Sharp as a bowling ball as usual.... Regarding the e-mail I sent you - I/we were trying to help your Boss the guy you're pimping product for. Since he took peoples money and then didn't deliver product for a friggin' YEAR!!! I figured I could help you guys out and help out the guys who were waiting for product. Instead of saying "No Thank You" we can get the job done or "We almost have the product finished" after a YEAR!!! you decide to attack me on someone elses thread. Weaaaaaak... No one here including me has ever said Gerard's product sucks...that's you talking out your ass as usual... So you're helping Gerard run his business now?? Excellent! I'm sure he can use the help getting those orders out in a timely fashion since you're in Alaska and he's in S.A. Do yourself and Gerard a favor...shut your mouth and sell some bullets so Gerard can pay his rent. All you're doing here is making us all look stupid. You by speaking and me by responding. See Bryan, this is just a hobby for me...if I wanted to make this a serious business we wouldn't be having this dialogue. Any other comments genius - put em in an e-mail. | |||
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Hey Mac Your mouth is having a conversation again without a brain to back it up. Addressing Gerard
Addressing Yukon Delta
You spin around so fast you will be falling down drunk if you keep it up. Lets have the patent numbers if this is true of course. I would like to read them. Or are the patents a secret? You have so many secrets. -------------------------------------------- INFOMERCIAL Look at what you get for $275 a hundred. Secret ingredients in the brass alloy. Secret ingredients in the lead alloy. Secret designs. But wait there is more. You also get the shine. -------------------------------------------- In racing we say: All chrome and no go. What you wanna do next? Debate the meaning of yes and no? | |||
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 I was beginning to think you were falling down on the job Rat!! I mean Gerard. How many aliases do you have?? You can do better than that!! I'd love to know how many PM's you boys are sending back and forth trying to Rally the Troops.  I don't know Rat..."isn't that good" vs "sucks" that's a stretch even for a disinformation artist like you. You should go back to supporting your argument (whatever that may be ) with stories of "tested on the worlds most dangerous game" and "we have bigger" and "I've shot bigger with smaller" ....blah blah blah.No one asked about that and it still doesn't address the original point that you state your stuff is better cause it's lower pressure and lower barrel wear and....blah, blah, blah....which no one even disagreed with. You can't back that up with any real objective testing cause you didn't do any did you?? The fact is that a friggin' lopped off section of bar stock will kill em all deader than a doornail. You wanna debate that too Mr. Semantics? | |||
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Its interesting that every time someone on this board starts making Boolits that they get attacked by the Gerrardites and others who have since gone out of buisness. This happened to Fritz 454 and stopped him and Bridger Bullets cold. Neither Gerrard or Mac make the perfect Boolit and My strong opinion is that Gerrard could learn a few things from Mac even though He has the edge on experience but lacks a few other small things like a sense of time. Folks there are not enough custom boolit makers out there period and this mudslinging isn't reflecting well on any of you. I suggest a Truce.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Hey Mac
Yeah!! Lets debate the meaning of yes and no. It depends on the context of the discussion blah blah blah........ | |||
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Try to stay on topic Rat....  | |||
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