Warrior wrote:

quote:

Does this rifle also shoot well with other bullets or not?

Much larger spreads of groups are achieved with other lead/copper jacketed bullets.
However, with GSC's 265gr HV's groups of less than 1" are achieved time and again over a 100 meter distance.

Point is, GSC's drive band bullets are working much better under odd conditions than other conventional bullets cannot even dream to do

RIP,
Although I said this rifle's barrel is 'oval' on the inside, I think what really is funny here is that one half of the grooves are larger (more prominent) than the other half of the grooves. Resulting in sort of an oval shape - hence the funny rifling cuttings on the bullet.

Só, could be due to the use of an oval rifling button in the manufacturing process as you suggest - who knows!

While I was somewhat reluctant to raise this thread from the dead, I thought those of you who were curious about the copper vs brass solid issue might be interested in this.

From Copper Rod Alloys For Machined Products:

C3600 free cutting brass,tensile strength 469 MPa, yeild strength 359 MPa, hardness 80 Brinell, shear strength 262.

C2100 Copper (gilding metal), 379, 241, 60-B, 255.

There are more appropriate coppers for a solid but since gilding metal is used in so many expanding bullet jackets, I selected it to represent copper alloys.

Many coppers equal C3600 yield strength, and I know for a fact copper solids with as little as 47-B do not mushroom or telescope on impact.

Take home lesson, all other design features being identical, brass is a little bit harder on barrels than copper.

Maybe an issue w thin walled doubles, but I doubt if I will ever shoot enough solids in a bolt action to notice.

Andy

Thanks, Andy.
No apology needed.
That is very interesting info.
I will be resurrecting this thread as soon as I shoot some North Fork FP .458/450-grainers at 2550 fps and some GSC FN .395/340-grainers at 2800 fps into the IWBB.

quote:

hardness 80 Brinell

80 "B" and 80 Brinell are very different things.

C360-H02 Brass is typically 78-80 on the Rockwell B scale equivalent to about 150 Brinnel. (yield 45K tensile 58k)

80B is about 0 to 1 on the C scale where a typical cut rifled barrel is 28-32 C. Interior surfaces of coated hammer forged barrels may be as high as 62C.

C101-H02 Copper is typically 84F - 47B - 80 Brinnel. (yield 36K tensile 42k)

M20 temper in the copper would be about 40F which doesn't register on the other scales because it's too soft. (yield 10k tensile 32k)

One internet source:

http://www.calce.umd.edu/general/Facilities/Hardness_ad_.htm

"Approximate Comparison of Hardness Scales"

From eyeballing a graph there:

Easily machined steels and cast iron:
Rockwell B = 97
Brinell = 210

Aluminum:
Rockwell B = 68
Brinell = 125

Brass:
Rockwell B = 66
Brinell = 120

Copper:
Rockwell B = 49
Brinell = 80

These are my eyeball approximations off a graph of approximations, so the values should be considered approximately approximate, FWIW.
The graph:

quote:

C360-H02 Brass is typically 78-80 on the Rockwell B scale equivalent to about 150 Brinnel. (yield 45K tensile 58k)

Macifej,

Thanks very much for the education.

Brass is harder than I thought.

For instance the mild steel core used in Russian 5.45 x 39mm ammunition is Brinell 50, which I was told by Foreign Science and Technology center in Charlottesville many years ago, was as hard as you could impact extrude rather than machine.

RIP,

You are doing great work.

May I suggest you squander some of your kids college fund by doing one or two more tests in the Iron Buffalo.

And that is to first calibrate it by shooting plain old 416 Remington and 458 Winchester factory FMJ ammo into it.

That way we would all know how remarkable those truncated cone FN solids are.

Andy

quote:

steel core used in Russian 5.45 x 39mm ammunition is Brinell 50

No chance that was Brinnel 50 unless it had very high lead content which would defeat the purpose. 50 Brinnel could be formed with a tack hammer on a hard surface. Anything can be "impact extruded" if the equipment is big enough.

Big Press

Andy,
Thanks, but in the IWBB, the roundnose FMJ stuff goes only the distance of a monkey's eyebrow before it veers off course!!!! Not even worth testing!!!!

The only reliable solids, worth testing, are Flat Nose Monometal solids.

Your .458/450-grain North Fork Copper FP at 2550 fps versus the .395/340-grain GSC Copper FN at 2800 fps is next up ... whenever I get the chance ... Satan! Get thee behind me!!!!!

Macifej,

Me bad.

Try Rockwell B-50 for Soviet core and C-70 for 10 grain penetrator in tip of 5.56mm Nato.

Real world, the 25 grain 5.4mm core will ricochet 30 yards in rocks, the lighter 10 gr C70 only goes about 3 feet.

C70 is as hard as 7.62mm proof steel, ceramic or titanium body armor.

RIP,

Do you need loads or bullets for your Dakota?

Andy

quote:

penetrator in tip of 5.56mm Nato

I have punched clean 5/8" holes through mild steel plate at 100 yards while sighting in an AR15.

/

Sounds like an equation for the 45-70 guys to work on...

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

RIP,

Do you need loads or bullets for your Dakota?

Andy

Andy,
I have lots of your data from past posts here, copied and saved.

Your barrel was 21-1/2" and gave 2508 fps with 100 grains of RL-15 (F215/GM215M primer and Dakota brass)?

My barrel is 25" so will just start at 95 grains of RL-15 and stop when I get to 2550 fps with the NF FP solids.

My Twist is 1:14". Should not be too awful compared to faster twists.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Now how about this:

On our shooting range we have a steel ram
( falling plate) and my 404 loaded with Barnes TSX's wont shoot through, in fact the bullets literally stick in the plate. Using Beartooth cast bullets at lower velocity the cast bullets shoot right through the plate ???????

Alf,
So those TSX's (.422"/400-grain TSX that claims to be .423" diameter?) are opening wide and putting the brakes on fast on the steel plate? Or are they under-sized and poorly stabilized so wobbling and tipping on the plate on impact?

The hardcast bullets: Are they also from the 404 and of similar weight, but slower? I have not heard of Beartooth 404 Jeffery bullets.

Sounds like a 45/70 load? Hard enough FN and slow enough to get a good start on penetration before expanding much, and then the momentum carries them through the plate as the steel along the sides of the bullet confines the bullet from expanding as it passes through the plate?

Your mild steel plate must be similar to cast iron plate and of what thickness? Defeated by lowly hardcast lead of enough weight and enough velocity, but not too much velocity, eh?

Specifics of the hardcast load would be appreciated, caliber, weight, velocity ... as well as the MV of the 400-grain 404 TSX.
Steel plate at 100 yards?
Duck after each shot? Oh, yeah, silhouette rams are not dangerous game since they usually don't shoot back, they tip over.

RIP,

You are all set for 450 Dakota test.

There is about 100 fps less velocity with new brass vs old. (2-4 grains depending on bullet).

Andy

I've got the new brass and will be so advised.

It happened today in the blackberry patch, another duel. The dueling ground:



The contestants:
.458/450-grain North Fork "FP" Solid (copper truncated cone FN) at 2594 fps
vs.
.338/225-grain S&H "SHARRC FN" Solid (brass truncated cone FN) at 3019 fps

Winner: North Fork

Maybe this further supports the ideas that:
1. Too high velocity makes things get squirrely.
2. The big squirrel with SD of at least .300 gets the acorn, as long as his SD is not too big, so as to allow climbing the tree without tumbling.
3. Velocity alone cannot make up for lack of SD, in the IWBB, and maybe in game animals too.



Things were squirrely today.

The winning North Fork stayed straight all the way until it keyholed on the back of the seventh bucket and almost penetrated the first of #7 rumen's backing boards (7-1 and 7-2). The bullet either rebounded back into bucket #7 or exited out the top between bucket #7 and board #7-1.

The defeated bullet started heading south in compartment #4, and skimmed the bottom edge of bucket #6 and boards #6-1 and #6-2, not getting into rumen #7 at all.

Resolved:

Wrap some heavy nylon mesh fabric around the back half of the IWBB to hopefully stop the terminal tumbling bullets that are bouncing out into the blackberry patch.

Resolved:
Plant a fencepost in the ground at the back end of the IWBB, since the 450 Dakota load slid the entire IWBB down range about 6 inches.
I gave up seroius rifle testing after I failed to recover the two contestants.

What a jungle there RIP!!

Berries, Bears, Bullets, and another Berry.

So mini-me took a turn in number four and left the building in 6...will be interesting to see what happens when used on game.

Shoulda tried a piece of lopped off bar stock. Would have been better.

quote:

..will be interesting to see what happens when used on game

Last time I said that it cost me a lot of money to pay for something I did not have. I now use bullets that are proved to work before they are sold to the unsuspecting reloader.


Hey mac,
That is two failures in row. The only bullets you make that works sort of are the GS custom copies.

quote:

Last time I said that it cost me a lot of money to pay for something I did not have. I now use bullets that are proved to work before they are sold to the unsuspecting reloader.

Rat! Glad to see you are still playing the role of village Idiot.

You mean these bullets which I gave guys to experiment with??

You guys kill me with your Jungle English - what the hell are you talking about paying for something you didn't have?? Just babbling again?

The only failure here is you Bubba - your self image isn't exactly what people see here Rat. You should let Alf do the talking for you guys - at least he can make coherant statements.

Yes - regarding your GS Bullets - I'm having copies made in Hong Kong for about $.02 each and will be selling boxes for a buck. Hell I might give em away like I do mine just cause I think you guys charge too much for that kind of quality. Gerard did mention several times here that I charge waaay to much and that I should be selling them for X.

What should I call the Chinese Bullet Rat??

Hey Mac
You talk too much. You should think more.

Hey Rat!

You don't think at all - you should shut up!

RIP, it might be interesting to see what the 338 bulet does at a more sedate velocity, say 2500 or so FPS

jwp475,
I used an AR-30 with a big scope centerline about 2" above bore, so when I shot it at 25 yards, the POI was about 2 inches below POA.

I will give it another chance and hold higher in hopes of catching the slug in the IWBB.

I may have to wrap the terminal half of the IWBB calf in Grannie's quilts. Like diapering the bull, to keep the manure from scattering in the blackberry patch.

RIP, I tested some of those bullets in My 338 Lapua at 3074 FPS. The 3 shot group at 100 was VERY small. I used 95 grains of R25, I loaded a few more with 97 grains.

Just wondering if the high velocity cause them to go off line easier than a slower speed, any thoughts on that?
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3221043/m/822108898

jwp475,
I loaded 98, 99, and 100 grains of RL-25.
100-grains gave 3019 fps in the Lapua-made brass with GM215M primer, for my 26" barreled .338 Lapua.

This points up the big differences between rifles. Mine is a mass produced AR-30. Yours is custom.

How long is your barrel? Maybe tighter barrel and/or chamber/throat?

As for the velocity thing: I will have to get back to you on that.

Here is a thought:
The SHARRC gill "flare" following the sub-caliber nose portion may have a "spoiler effect" and upset ... ??? ...

Macifej has sent some bullets my way to test in my .338WSM. Velocity, of course, will be much less than in your .338 Lapua, but give us a wider range of velocities. If I get a second cow elk tag this fall, I'll try the bullet there. Oh, and now have a digital camera given to me by my daughter.
Max

RIP, my barrel to the end of the brake is 31"

Here is the 3 shot 100 group shot with the 338 225 grain flat point solids

RIP,

Great work as usual.

You are the only guy here who is getting his hands dirty. (Or maybe I should say getting your feet wet!)

How many inches total did the 450 grain North Fork go?

70 inches of water and 9 inches of wood?

You have certainly slowed it down from the 126 inches I got in water.

You are getting pretty well calibrated to my cow elephant skull where it went 60-64 inches.



Congratulations.

I have recovered quite a few North Fork FN and this picture is typical. (They remain point forward and do not turn up, down or exit the stop-box laterally). I was using a 1-12 twist, so 2,550 revolutions per second.



I put a wood plank along the side of my stop box to capture the occasional ricochets (pictured). They dont go far. You might be able to find it with a metal detector.



Re. the .338 you tested, thats still alot of penetration for a light weight bullet. In my experience bullets 400 grains and heavier remain on course more often and more consistently than a 300 grain or lighter bullet. The 400 grain 416 and even 400 grain .458 have so much momentum, it takes an edge hit to push them off course.

Keep up the good work.

Andy

Andy,
You have validated the IWBB, if this .458/450-grain North Fork FP solid at about 2550 fps penetrates 60 to 64 inches in a cow elephant head shot.

The IWBB has 10 "rumens" that are each 10 inches deep, and composed, along the midline bullet path, as follows:

8 inches of water
1 inch of wood
1/16" x 2 of bucket walls
7/8" of air

Neglect the air and the thin plastic bucket walls that serve merely as witness plane's when the bucket does not shatter/explode.

The North Fork .458/450-grain FP copper solid at 2594 fps MV scored the same distance as the GSC .395/340-grain FN copper solid at 2726 fps MV. Both impacted the IWBB at 25 yards, and both went straight to the last board contacted: First board backing the seventh rumen.

This was
7 x 8" water = 56"
plus
6 x 1" plywood = 6
sum
= 62 inches, identical to your elephant cow head shots average (60 to 64 inches).

I will build a 3/4" plywood three-sided trough for the terminal half of the IWBB, and cover the top of it with several layers of finely woven nylon mesh netting.

I will repeat the latest North Fork and S&H duel and recover those bullets to look at the rifling marks and nose expansion.

I wonder if the S&H wobbles in the initial rifling engagement and gets some marking of the subcaliber nose?

I wonder how much the S&H brass nose expands at 3000 fps.

I wonder how much the North Fork copper nose expands at 2550 fps?

I know how much a GSC copper FN nose expands at 2700 fps.

I have always retrieved GSC FN's in the IWBB, and am at a loss to explain why the North Fork did not stop in the board or settle down into the bottom of the bucket, or fall sedately to the ground beneath a draining, split waterbucket.

Wood alone is not as hard on initial impact as the water in the first bucket of the IWBB. That first bucket is where any nose expansion at all will occur.

Did you not see any nose expansion of the North Fork when you shot it into water alone?

Water alone is a very soft target at low velocity, hence a long penetration length in water alone.

Water slows bullets greatly at high velocity, but not at low velocity.
Wood slows bullets greatly at low velocity, but not at high velocity.

The sum of 1" of wood plus 8" of water repeated in series:

This is the equal of a cow elephant headshot for penetration depth.

I am planning to sink some 4x4 pressure-treated wood posts into the earth of the blackberry patch to make a permanent and level resting place for the IWBB, and get rid of the crappy steel sawhorses.

RIP,

YOU ARE CALIBRATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU DID IT.

WE ARE THE ONLY TWO PEOPLE IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE TO HAVE CALIBRATED A TEST MEDIUM TO AN ELEPHANT SKULL WITH A KNOWN BULLET/VELOCITY COMBINATION.



All hail Dr. Ron Berry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Attached is a picture of expansion of North Fork meplat in wood and elephant. Minimal.



North Fork recovered from elephant.



Quite a bit less than the GS 450 grain (in wood) at less velocity.



I can e mail you with exact dimensions of meplat compression for each bullet. The wood and elephant for NF are almost identical.

Congratulations on a job well done!

PS Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone's got one. You got the facts!

Andy

Dr. Rip...
I think you need to do a study on how BBST (Big Bore Shooting Therapy) is good for your general wellbeing

Do a study on 1000 Big bore shooters here on AR.
There is something about shooting big bores and the destruction in conjunction that soothes the savage beast.

I would be curious to see what a 375 version of Macifej's 338 would do in your contraption.

boomstick,
BBST? Nah, just call it R&R. Torture testing solids in the IWBB is enough "study" for me right now.

Where are the nay-sayers telling us how worthless the IWBB is? I figure they should pile on anytime now ...

Andy,
We'll compare nose measurements when I retrieve the North Fork from the IWBB.
The .395/340-grain GSC FN at 2700 fps in IWBB(pictured on page 2 of this thread) seemed to expand about like your .458/450-grain GSC FN at 2500 in the wood stop box.
My North Fork .458/450-grFP penetrated the same distance as that GSC .395/340-grFN in the IWBB, and same distance as your NF in elephant:

RIP & Andy,
My congratulations to you both for the efforts involved. RIP, your IWBB deserves a medal or award of some type. Could we say a Nobel Piece Prize...and yeah, I meant to spell it that way, considering the bucket and wood damage.

So should it be renamed CERTIFIED ELEPHANT MEDIA DUPLICATIOR BULLET CATCHER?

Thanks, y'all! Will catch a few more bullets after I install the plywood trough around the terminal/low pressure end of the IWBB, put some netting or padded blankets over the top of it and secure it on permanent posts planted in the blackberry patch.
Waterboarding in the quest for piece ...

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
All hail Dr. Ron Berry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ron Berry ??!!!

All this time I thought it was Halle Berry posting these tests.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
jwp475,
I loaded 98, 99, and 100 grains of RL-25.
100-grains gave 3019 fps in the Lapua-made brass with GM215M primer, for my 26" barreled .338 Lapua.

This points up the big differences between rifles. Mine is a mass produced AR-30. Yours is custom.

How long is your barrel? Maybe tighter barrel and/or chamber/throat?

As for the velocity thing: I will have to get back to you on that.

Here is a thought:
The SHARRC gill "flare" following the sub-caliber nose portion may have a "spoiler effect" and upset ... ??? ...

RIP, I loaded a few at 97 grains that is a bit too high IMHO in my rifle. barrel 31" to the end of the brake
The Olher tells the tale

Paul,
My Grandmother was a "Halle Berry." No relationship to the movie star, sorry to say.
You can call me "Ron" or you can call me "Rip," but you doesn't has to call me "Halle."

jwp475,
I noticed that you could not keep one going straight in the wet newspaper pack, those high velocity .338/225-grain SHARRC FN's.

I will try one again. Looking at the rifling marks would be interesting.

True, but they went along way before it happened.... Speed is probable the cause