I have often wondered about a truck mounted Bushmaster III in 35 Oerlikon...or maybe some follow-on to the A-10 with the same gun....Lots-a-range....

I got three shots off before I got tired of standing in the rain in the blackberry patch with lightning striking about a mile away (lightning bolt seen: one-one-thousand-two-one-thousand- three ... five-one-thousand-BOOM ... yep a mile away). The summer storm was cool and refreshing.

Amidst thunder and lightning from the sky and from the .395 Tatanka, a clear winner emerged, from the dueling ground.

Contestants after the duel:


On the left, the .395/340-grain GSC copper FN lanched at 2726 fps.
On the right, the .395/330-grain S&H brass FN, launched at 2812 fps.
Both used the same charge of 96.0 grains of H4350 with a GM215M primer and Hornady .416 Rigby brass necked down to .395 and previously fireformed to 20-degree shoulder. I'll get a picture of the loaded cartridges too ...

Total penetration of two boards per rumen of the Iron Water Board Buffalo as shown.

GSC:


S&H:



GSC penetrated 6 rumens completely, went through the 7th waterbucket and put a ding in the first board at the back of 7th rumen. GSC Score: 6.5

S&H penetrated 8 rumens completely, put a hole completely through the the two boards and a barely discernable mark on the ninth waterbucket, did not enter it. S&H Score: 8.0

S&H:
First rumen:

Eighth rumen:


GSC:
First rumen:

Seventh rumen:


Some of these boards may have been rotated vertically when laid out for the photos, and some were not centered right and left in the compartments. The heavyduty end of the IWBB is 1-1/2" square tube, the midsection is 1-1/4" tube, and the terminal end is lightweight 1" stainless steel square tube. Thus the boards are a tight fit in the entrance section and a loose fit in the terminal section, and when it is thundrin'-n-lightnin' in the blackberry patch, I am hasty in setting up and getting home with the piles of boards to photograph in the driveway.

Rain is good for blackberries.

The GSC was found on the ground beneath the IWBB, directly under the seventh rumen. The S&H was found in the blackberry briars, a few feet beyond and slightly to the right of the IWBB's far end. It was still tumbling forward when it hit the ground, apparently, while the GSC settled sedately downward, totally spent but dead straight to a stop. The last GSC board dent showed it was keyholing when it stopped, and only half the nose circumference left a cockeyed impression on the board.

Both bullets performed excellently.
I repeated the S&H for my third shot, with the same results, score 8.0, but it was raining so hard I could not find that bullet in the briars, so I packed it in then.

No 500 Mbogo shooting today.

The harder the flat nose solid is the better the penetration and your results proved that assumtion on my part.
An excellent job as always..

jwp475,
Thank ye kindly!

The winner is the S&H brass FN 330-grainer at 2812 fps. No nose expansion at that velocity, and certainly that nose is shaped right for penetration, and it is a good feeder.

If the GSC copper 340-grainer was loaded faster than 2726 fps, the nose would expand more. Might be diminishing returns with more velocity there, regarding penetration, eh?

Whole lotta deceased buckets!!

How bout some photos of the Blackberries and those storm clouds too!!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

If the GSC copper 340-grainer was loaded faster than 2726 fps, the nose would expand more. Might be diminishing returns with more velocity there, regarding penetration, eh?

More velocity may indeed reduce pentration but the nose expansion would increase wound channet size, sort of and expanding solid. The flat point solids that we have to choose from today are light years ahead of the old RN solids of yester year..

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

How bout some photos of the Blackberries and those storm clouds too!!

I was going to do that but the camera died. I don't know if it was the rain or just the dead batteries. The camera worked again when I got it home and put recharged batteries in it.

Here are the contestants before the duel.
Both a little scratched up by feeding and ejecting several times, warming up for the match. But not as badly beaten up as they were after the match. The white line on the neck of the cartridge with the GSC bullet is a Jack Russel Terrier hair.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
More velocity may indeed reduce pentration but the nose expansion would increase wound channet size, sort of and expanding solid. The flat point solids that we have to choose from today are light years ahead of the old RN solids of yester year..

Notice how the first bucket was shattered to tiny pieces by the S&H at 2812 MV. Range was 25 yards to first bucket.

The GSC at 2726 fps has a sectional density advantage, but must fall below the "waterbucket-shatter threshold" of velocity, despite its pseudo-cup-point nose deformation. It basically just split the first bucket in two, instead of pulverizing it.

Minimal/no deformation of the S&H brass at 2700 to 2800 fps impact velocity, and the flat point itself transmits some shock at that velocity.

Andy,
Your elephant bullets might go only about 60 inches in this iteration of the IWBB.

However these .395 Tatanka loads: the S&H brass FN goes about 80", and 69.25" with the GSC copper FN.

I agree that the added slap of more velocity at impact will indeed produce results with the harder projectile. I was refering more to the larger nose after impact when the velocity has slowed a bit, may not matter though.
The harder material will IMHO transmit more to the target at impact speed, since the harder projectile doesn't compress and its full power is unleased on the target.

RIP,

Great work!

Did the GS hit quite a bit lower in the first bucket than the SH?

That may explain difference in shattering effect of first bucket.

Personally I put ALOT of emphasis on how the buckets crack up. It corresponds to instant death on heart/lung shots w 5 gallon nylon buckets I use (in many calibers).

The GS is a little too soft in my opinion for a solid and a little too hard for a monolithic HP.

A solid needs to be no harder than necessary (to not deform). The North Fork alloy was perfect for solids.

It does appear you need to make the boards even thicker than you have.

Better hit the buffalo w a known elephant head penetrator like the 450 grain NF at 2550 fps in 1-12 twist. I can send you some if you have something similar to shoot them in.



Pictures are 465 TCCI at 2500 fps and 450 NF FN at 2550 fps from elephant head at 9 paces.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
RIP,

Great work!

Did the GS hit quite a bit lower in the first bucket than the SH?

That may explain difference in shattering effect of first bucket.

Personally I put ALOT of emphasis on how the buckets crack up. It corresponds to instant death on heart/lung shots w 5 gallon nylon buckets I use (in many calibers).

Actually, no significant difference in the elevation, just the GSC was a hair higher, not lower as you asked, but better centered windage-wise, as I did pull the S&H a little to the left (lightning strike must have caused a flinch) , but not enough to matter, as it was still close to the middle as it was exiting rumen no. 8, angling a little to the left, straight through:

GSC: Perfect on windage, barely high on elevation:


That is not a bullet hole near the bottom of the bucket above, just a blow-out spot. The exit hole can be seen as the small dot in the right half of the bucket split open longitudunally. Bullet entrance on boards corresponds well on the first compartment. I did not screw this up. The bucket flange sits on top of the board edge. The bucket is hanging in the air supported on the board on back side of bucket rim/flange and angle iron bracket supports the front top of the bucket. Bucket does not reach all the way to the bottom of the board.

S&H: Perfect on elevation, but slightly left of center:


The GS is a little too soft in my opinion for a solid and a little too hard for a monolithic HP.

Howls will be heard over that remark, Andy!!!

A solid needs to be no harder than necessary (to not deform). The North Fork alloy was perfect for solids.

It does appear you need to make the boards even thicker than you have.

Three boards can be done per rumen, but that won't be necessary, until we get to 50BMG or .666Teufel. Increasing the boards decreases the resolving power. With three boards per rumen, both of these bullets might have quit in the fifth rumen. Harder to tell the difference.

Better hit the buffalo w a known elephant head penetrator like the 450 grain NF at 2550 fps in 1-12 twist. I can send you some if you have something similar to shoot them in.



Pictures are 465 TCCI at 2500 fps and 450 NF FN at 2550 fps from elephant head at 9 paces.

Andy

I do have a stockpile of North Fork .458/450-grain solids. A hot load might get 2550 fps in my 1:12" .458 Lapua Mag.

I have a 450 Dakota, SIGARMS Mauser 98 Magnum, but the barrel might be 1:14", I don't recall, will check.

I see I must calibrate the IWBB to this load, will do, next chance I get.

Thanks for the suggestion, Andy.

Absolutely wonderful information, RIP! Guess I'm going to have to go ahead and order some of those 330gr .395s for my .395 Max.

Copper v Brass. Been there done that.

Consider that the test results we got from a proof lab shows that the 340gr GSC FN could be loaded to the same speed as the brass FN, maybe even higher, without exceeding the pressure level of the brass bullet.

The additional speed will give similar destructive results on the first bucket and increase penetration depth. It will also cause greater setback of the nose of the bullet. This results in greater destruction of tissue and organs, while not detracting from penetration depth in animals. The reduction of total surface area in contact with tissue, (the angle of the sides of the nose reduces), is the reason for this. (See Duncan MacPherson pp 178, 186, 188 and elsewhere.) Wetted area as Alf rightly says. The closer the deformed bullet resembles a cylinder, the more it improves penetration in the speed range we see here. This is one area where intuitive thinking will lead you astray.

We have done a considerable amount of field work with copper and all manner of brass / bronze alloys. Our position remains unchanged.

Good to see you here Gerard!

Well, that worked! Gerard is back!

I can load those GSC FN's to 2812 fps and see how they smack and drill then.

Will compare to Andy's load.

Same two-board-per-rumen IWBB.

Gerard!!

Good to see you back here!!

I figured you were on a round the world cruise or something.

Maybe you could help RIP out and shed some light on the difference in muzzle velocities as chrono'd with the same load. (since you no doubt have done these tests yourself)

Conventional wisdom in the marketplace is that a driving band design creates less friction, lower pressure, less bore wear, etc....

The brass bullet RIP is using here is a simple cylinder behind the nose with some grooves cut into the shank. Doesn't really follow that less bearing area increases velocity in this case.

I would like to spend more time here but it must wait for later. My knee is killing me, email is backed up and, until it is done, a major project takes up all available time.

quote:

shed some light on the difference in muzzle velocities as chrono'd with the same load

It is as you say: Lower shot start pressure and better gas handling.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Andy,
Going sideways they don't go far through elephant crap. That might be the cecum at the start of the colon, where the terminal ileum dumps into the colon and the appendix comes off of the cul-de-sac that is the cecum.

That does look like fresh elephant crap and apparently the ileum was terminal for the bullet and the elephant.

Major power: Is that 20mm?
If only we could all afford to drive SUV's with one of those mounted for commuting. Drivers would be more polite, and road rage would be less problematic.

That's a Miami rush-hour rig if I ever saw one!!

Gerard,

Took a look at your reference above to previous thread. I'll post it here for ease of use.

________________________________________________

Some real answers to a real question:

Below are pressures obtained with a variety of 500gr .458 bullets. The copper plated lead bullet was 510gr.

Bullet Type -------- Powder Charge - Velocity - Pressure PSI
GS Custom drive band- S335 78gr ---- 2201 fps - 59 755
Bronze Grooved Solid- S335 75gr ---- 2191 fps - 60 480
Copper Solid Shank--- S335 77gr ---- 2190 fps - 60 963
Copper Plated Lead--- S335 74.5gr -- 2134 fps - 60 755

In a separate test, after the above one, we wanted to determine if an experiment was moving in the right direction:

500gr .458 GSC Drive Band Bullet - S321 76.5gr - 2182 fps - 61 355 psi
500gr .458 GSC Drive Band Bullet - S321 76.5gr - 2192 fps - 60 175 psi

We felt that maintaining speed and dropping more than 1 000 psi of the pressure was an improvement.

With a 450gr .458 HV bullet, we got 2307fps at 56 056 psi. No comparative testing was done with other 450gr bullets.

Shot start pressures for a variety of bullet types have been determined as:

Copper Mono Drive Bands ------ 1450 to 2900psi
Bronze Mono Drive Bands ------ 3200psi
Copper Jacket Lead Core ------ 3600psi
Copper Mono, Grooved --------- 3700psi
Copper Solid Shank, Grooved -- 3700psi
Bronze Mono, Grooved --------- 4400psi
Copper Solid Shank, Smooth --- 5100psi
Jacketed Copper a frame type - 5400 to 6400psi
Bronze Mono, Smooth ---------- 5800psi

Pressure testing was done at Somchem Ballistic Proof Lab

Note that shot start pressure as well as maximum pressure can be reduced by using undersize bullets or bullets that effect a bad seal in the bore. This gives advantages in the short term but long term, the price will be paid in throat erosion.

The trick is low shot start pressure, low friction and a good seal.

________________________________________________

From reading what you had posted, using the extremely limited data you supply would not allow anyone to make sound conclusions about much of anything.

Perhaps there was significantly more data available to you and not posted in support of your conclusions here for the sake of brevity.

Some questions answered would take the data out of the "measuring a warm marshmellow with a ruler" category.

1) Precise dimensional specifications for ALL cases, bullets, and primers.

2) Precise dimensions of the chamber indicating freebore, bore form, tolerances, etc.

3) Loaded net case volume.

4) Statistical variances in THE powder used.

5) The actual shape of each type of bullet tested to include:

Bearing area, diameter in relation to measured bore, hardness, ductility, yield vs ultimate Ts of the bullet material, frictional Ce of the material, and of course the all important precision of manufacture....are they round etc?

What you're telling us in very general terms is that your testing demonstrated that dogs are usually faster than pigs but it depends on whether it's a red pig or an orange dog.....what we don't know is whether it was a 125 lb 3 year old male Dobermann with a full nights sleep running a 100m sprint at 1000m altitude on a 20 degree day with a 15 kt tailwind. We don't know anything at all about about the pig he raced.

Governments spend billions doing the kind of testing I mentioned where it's necessary (and when it's not)...it's certainly not necessary in the realm of flattening animals at 50m.

There's an American saying that sometimes fits....."Creating a Soloution to a Non-Existent Problem"

Macifej,
Is that .395/330-grain grooved brass FN "history?" It is the first ever production run of S&H Precision bullets, eh?

And the SHark-Fin-Banded design has taken over since the second ever S&HP production bullet, the .395/310-grain brass SHark VeloHex, eh?

Well, no apologies necessary for the grooved brass FN, it works. A .395/330-grain SHark-Fin-Banded Brass FN of 330-grains ought to work as well ... as would a .395/330-grain copper SHark-Fin-Banded "VeloPoint" soft, if you would.

Gerard,
How about the seating net case capacity effects of a deeper seated bullet?

96.0 grains of H4350 makes your .395/340-grain HV go over 2800 fps, but it also gives a sticky bolt: Pressure. The FN is a lot shorter than the HV of same weight, and with the GSC FN there is more air space left in the case when it is seated as shown in the photo above. The GSC FN can be loaded to longer COL than the S&H FN due to the ogives, and throat limits of all the .395 wildcats extant. The picture shows the COL's of these two bullets: GSC FN is >3.750" COL while the S&H FN is <3.750" COL, as shown below, both well within the 3.8" magazine box length limit.



The smaller net case capacity (due to more bullet inside the case) with the same powder charge must also contribute to higher pressures and higher velocities.

It should be no problem to get the GSC FN over 2800 fps at near max pressures in the .395 Tatanka.

It might make the nose of the GSC FN expand a little more, maybe not measurable. We'll see. That bigger FN meplat may not be an impediment in water (supercavitation better) but it will be an impediment to passage through the boards of the IWBB. Live game media cuts both ways too.
Can the extra 100 fps make it overcome that extra resistance in the boards? Maybe so with the boost from lesser resistance in water? We'll see.

In my experience, with your bullets in .475/500-grain FN, using 2100 fps, 2300 fps, and 2500 fps in the IWBB with two-boards per rumen: All penetrated to the same depth, the faster velocity just produced greater splash of water and greater board breakage and splintering. These were shot in a 16" TWIST 470 Mbogo at 2100 fps and 2500 fps, and in a 10" TWIST 470 Capstick at 2300 fps. No difference in penetration.

Also with those copper banded GSC bullets in .475/500-grain used in the 470 NE: With the same powder charge the longer HV gave about 75 fps greater velocity than the FN.

Again, a net case capacity intrusion by the longer bullet producing higher pressure and velocity? Near identical to what I saw with the .395 Tatanka and matched weight HV and FN with same powder charges for both bullets.

I am starting to think that bullet length has a greater effect on pressures and velocities than banded versus grooved shank designs.

Get well soon, and don't work too hard.
Live Long and Prosper.

BR,
Ron

There's a part number for the latest .395" FN and you can have it in Brass, Bronze, Copper, Aluminum, Steel, or plastic.....

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
There's a part number for the latest .395" FN ...

Say what? Still avoiding the copper VeloPoint?
Don't know how to make a copper hollowpoint?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
There's a part number for the latest .395" FN ...

Say what? Still avoiding the copper VeloPoint?
Don't know how to make a copper hollowpoint?

I'll make you a steerable gps guided Dumbo seeking rimfire if you REALLY wanna spend the money to kill paper and buckets....

I made the worlds most deadly non-pyrotechnic bullet for you but nooooooo....you were too scared to use the "Duo"

Your copper Vel-o-filet can be ready in a few days....

Should make for some nice photo ops.
I want to test it in 5-gallon water buckets, end-to-end, like I did the GSC HV and the SHark VeloHEX.

If it can dent the bottom of the third bucket and retain any petals at 2500 fps impact, it is a good one.

Surely I can remove all the petals at 2800 fps and it might even make it into the fourth 5-gallon "Homer Bucket" at that velocity?

If Saeed can do it with copper grounding lightning rods ...

.395/330-grain copper "VeloSHark" will be for big game, including buffalo.

The .395/310-grain Death SHtar VeloHEX is good for elk and varmints.

My only concern about a steady diet of brass bullets is that of barrel wear.

I like to use them now and then to clean out the copper and lead fouling.

I wouldn't be too concerned about barrel wear...that particular brass isn't that hard.

They're cleaning the leftover junk from your other bullets cause they are the correct size...

Did you test the 500gr solid NYTOLS with your new rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
I wouldn't be too concerned about barrel wear...that particular brass isn't that hard.

They're cleaning the leftover junk from your other bullets cause they are the correct size...

From the looks of the recovered bullets: The full .395" diameter brass does seem to be skimming along in the .395" grooves, unmarred, must be perfectly round in bullet and barrel.
Nice engraving by the .387" land diameter with no skidding.

Ditto the GSC bullets.

As for shootawry's 500-grain NYTOLS, I have no idea what he is talking about.
I'll need a translation/interpretation on that one. Poor shootaway ... confused or trolling again?

Nobody could be as stupid as some of his stuff. Must be a put-on.

quote:

500-grain NYTOLS

Take two of these tablets (diphenhydramine, phenylephrine, guaifensen, ibuprofen) before shooting to relax your trigger finger.

Hey Macifej,



What's the word on another run of .585s?

Gotta stockpile whatever I can get my hands on before they put my cuffs on.

RIPs threads are like NYTOL.

I find his threads informative and well thought out. Thanks, RIP!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Did you test the 500gr solid NYTOLS with your new rifle?

I understand everything now.
1 grain = 60 mg
Shootawry has been taking 500-grain Nytols.
That is 30,000 mg.

That is why he is "asleep at the wheel."

585's coming up shortly along with a boat load of other calibers and sizes. Hey if your Bolshevik legislators send you to the farm you can paint em different colors and use em for chess pieces.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
RIPs threads are like NYTOL.

RIP! You've been pinged by a one ring French Canadian...

Maybe you're test threads aren't technically exciting for Shootaway??

Could NYTOL be a medication along the lines of Viagra?

That's NY-agra-TOL you're thinking about....

Take two Nyagratol before you float over the Niagra falls...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
RIPs threads are like NYTOL.

RIP! You've been pinged by a one ring French Canadian...

Maybe you're test threads aren't technically exciting for Shootaway??

Hard to say what excites AR's "Rain Man". Except that day when he received a matching shooting helmet and drool bucket. He did display signs of elation that day, which required an immediate change of his adult diapers.

Best you just let him sit in the corner with a cleaning rod and some grinding compound. Is Alan Shearing aware of the little feller's special needs for his upcoming safari in August?

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
585's coming up shortly along with a boat load of other calibers and sizes. Hey if your Bolshevik legislators send you to the farm you can paint em different colors and use em for chess pieces.

GO TEAM 577!

As a member of HEHPBAPW (Hunters for the Ethical Hunting of Plastic Buckets and PlyWood) I must protest the shooting of PBs and PWBs while caged in your metal buffalo. All ballistic testing should use only free ranging ballistic gelaton or Dangerous Water Jugs.