The cylindrical nose portion of the subject .338/225-grain brass FN SHARRC measures about 0.3235" in diameter by my current best interpolation with caliper.

The following gill has a flare to 0.3380" as it enters the rifling.



Seems like any possible throat is going to rattle the nose around until the gills get engaged. Will the nose show some asymmetric rifling marks and irregularities if one of these bullets can be retrieved?

consider those flared .3380" gills, sticking out beyond the .3235" nose section:
When the bullet slows down enough for the cavitation to fall off, do those gills spinning in the bubble suddenly get wetted and produce some destabilizing torque or drag? Is that what causes good penetration at high velocity then an exit from the trap, out the side, similar to a roundnose solid's behavior?

The start of page 8 here, eh?
Well I have participated in more notorious messes and longer threads here before. Gladly, and productively!

I really must go make improvements to the IWBB:

Permanent posts in ground for level mounting.
And, a terminal trough of 3/4" plywood covered with padding blankets and mesh netting to catch any errant tumblers.

Also need to replace that angle iron bracket that got drilled by an S&H bullet, a wounded rib on the IWBB. It is modular and easily fixed with pre-cut pieces and nuts and bolts and washers.

My little brother BIP aka "Bip" is really hot to get a lead alloy ready for elephant brain shots.

Bip had to put a wet rag over his head it was so hot during his initial testing of "Bippalloy" cast REAL bullets from a Lee mould, for his shopmule 50-cal muzzleloader. It is a start.
Due to the heat, Bip was going commando that day, so I had to censor the photo:


Bip will be helping Rip get the IWBB up to snuff for catching the SHARRC.

I gotta go get to work now.

I was designing the permanent installation in my head as I drove to Lowe's to buy beams and bolts, with posthole digger in bed of bakkie.

Walked by some picnic tables on the way into the store, and was stricken by the idea that a picnic table is a much better pedestal for a 9-foot Iron WaterBoard Buffalo.

Bip and Rip packed a wooden picnic table into the briarpatch today.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
the permanent installation in my head

Canuck,
No not an alien implant. I was doing the design work mentally, as opposed to on paper. I often design bullet trap paraphernalia on the fly as I drive a bakkie. Don't you?

Those of us who can walk and chew gum at the same time often extend our multitasking to more complex tasks, since there are not enough hours in our days, eh?

The permanemt installation of the IWBB support structure was cancelled. It is now a picnic table "pedestal."

I sawed the butt benches off the table and they are now on the ground beneath the legs of the picnic table. Sort of like snowshoes, or skis, or a foundation to keep the picnic table legs from sinking into the earth of the blackberry patch when the IWBB is loaded on top.

I figured Canuck would understand the snowshoe or ski part.

quote:

I often design bullet trap paraphernalia on the fly as I drive a bakkie. Don't you?

Of course! I just couldn't resist.



Excellent, excellent work above BTW. Only sorry I have not been able to keep with with this thread of late. Very interesting stuff.

Cheers,
Canuck

That's O.K. Canuck. I know you have one of the highest IQ's amongst us. Just yanking my chain, eh?
There goes that Canadian "eh?" again. Until you taught me how, I could not even spell it.

I did note some bowing of the top-level angle iron brackets of the first three compartments (rumens) of the IWBB. I will replace them using a socket wrench, 1/2" box wrench, and my hands.

All the stainless steel square tubing is in pristine condition. It is good that the angle iron brackets (14 guage?) holding the boards bend and give a little in the high-impact first half of the IWBB. The first three compartments take the severest beating. The modular IWBB can be repaired easily and may last forever, much to the chagrin of many.

2.5 feet of the IWBB will be hanging out in front of the picnic table, venting 360-degrees radially.

The terminal 6 feet of the IWBB will be supported on the 6-foot long picnic table, made of screwed and bolted 2x6 pine.

A 4-foot long, and 2-foot square, 3/4" plywood three-sided trough will surround the terminal end of the IWBB, and a 2-foot x 4-foot 3/4" plywood board will lie on top of this trough as a lid, and mesh fabric and a padded blanket, "quilt" or buffalo robe itself, will be draped over the terminal four feet of IWBB.

The extreme end of the IWBB will be anchored and filled with 4" thickness of boards backed by steel plate, in case a bullet ever makes it through the 10th waterbucket rumen.

Dreamcatcher bulletcatcher.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I sawed the butt benches off the table and they are now on the ground beneath the legs of the picnic table. Sort of like snowshoes, or skis, or a foundation to keep the picnic table legs from sinking into the earth of the blackberry patch when the IWBB is loaded on top.

I figured Canuck would understand the snowshoe or ski part.

That's some good thinking RIP! I assume the IWBB is pretty heavy when fully prepped for testing, and the ground would get plenty saturated after repeated tests.

quote:

Just yanking my chain, eh?

It just struck me as funny. Thanks for indulging my lame humor.

quote:

There goes that Canadian "eh?" again. Until you taught me how, I could not even spell it.

With all that practical thinkin' and fine use of "eh", you have earned honorary "canuck" status in my books.

Cheers my friend,
Canuck

Canuck,
"Honorary Canuck" status is appreciated. I have often said BC is the place for me if I ever have to flee the USA. Alas, they have not run me off yet.

Sorry to tease, no IWBB shooting today, just rebuilding. That is 12 guage plated-steel "angle iron" that bowed in the first three compartments from previous shooting. A couple of terminal compartment vertical "angle steel" members were damaged by Bip's errant 50-cal BP conicals cast from Rippalloy. Working without supervision, Bro'Bip used only 5 water buckets without boards and shot through them with a muzzle loader. Those were replaced too.

The IWBB was getting saggy, with some rickety ribs and a few loose screws:



High pressure entry end. Only the horizontal cross members of the first three compartments were bowed in the direction of bullet path.




The terminal vertical rib denting from Bip's Rippalloy-cast 50-cal conical that defeated 5 water buckets only, no wood:


Now for a change of pace, here is BIP, Bro'Bip, with the head of a 21-pound flathead catfish he caught using a "limb line" tied to a tree with hooks baited with "red worms." At a local lake, hauled in yesterday. A Country Boy Can Survive:


"It was this big, no lie."


Now the IWBB is fully stiff and erect:


Now it also has a lean-to of 3/4" plywood and the start of layers of tarps to hold the boards in place before each shot. How's it hanging?






Planned loads:

.395/340gr GSC SP shot backwards at 2800 fps if attainable with the new bullets that will be a few silly microns larger in diameter. The leading boattail will be the FN nose shoulder stabilizer, and the trailing pointy-point will be a dart stabilizer, CG very far forward. Should fly true ... or will it?

.395/310gr S&H VeloHex at 2800 fps to see if it will flip over 180 degress and track true like an FN solid after the Hexagonal Death Star explosion of the hollowpoint.

.338/225gr S&H SHARRC FN at 3000 fps to see if they ever go straight after the fourth rumen.

Verification and calibration to IWBB of my two favorite alltime best real world buffalo rakers:
.416/380gr GSC FN at 2500 fps in a 14" twist .416 Rigby
.510/570gr GSC FN at 2500 fps in a 10" twist 500A2

I also have a 12" TWIST .416 Dakota M70 and 16.5" TWIST .416 Rigby CZ 550 to try the same bullet and velocity for gnat's hair difference.
And a .416 Barrett with 12" TWIST to try for 3300 fps with the GSC 380gr FN.
And a 50BMG with 15" TWIST to try for over 3000 fps with the GSC .510/570gr FN.

Has GSC really given up on 570-grain and switched to 540-grain FN in .510 caliber?

I am hoping to defeat the 10-rumen IWBB with one of these loads.

I am looking for a steel plate to lean against the back end of the IWBB.

I might mount a bison skull with horns to that steel plate, but not in front of it.

Jim Manion, that one was for you.

Is someone documenting all this convoluted tedium for future generations of Gun Mag writers to research??

Macifej,
I'll try to work it in as a footnote or side bar in a "400/.395 Nitro Express Aboriginal" article if I can find anyone to publish it.

So the catfish head was not enough to relieve the tedium, eh?

I guess we need a joke from Lord Jim to save the thread ...

The bison skull will be a nice finishing touch. All you need then is a red cape and one of those mouseketeer matador hats before asking the IWBB just how it wants to die!

OLE!

I'm from New Orleans RIP!! A Catfish head is something seen every friday for 300 years!!

NOW!! If you glass over the IWBB to look like a giant Catfish THAT would friggin' hilarious...

Even better if you could find a whole collection of larger than life-sized animal heads to mount on the front of the IWB which would hold targets in their mouths.

Deus ex machina!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Deus ex machina!

Now we know where the name "Rip" comes from.

The Euripides of the 21st century!

ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός

Yes, Jim, I am the reincarnation of EuRIPides, last of the classical Greek "great" tragic dramatists.
Ain't it a tragedy? Thanks for noticing.

And you and Dennis Miller drank the same water and watched the same TV cartoons growing up in Pittsburg?

quote:

Dennis Miller

One of the few reasons to turn the TV on...

Waterboarding is a humane method of information acquisition from enemy combatants and known scum. It makes scum sing like canaries. Think about it! Singing scum! Wonderful!

Also makes bullets talk.

Tragicomic. EuRIPides is proud.

quote:

Tragicomic.

The best kind!!

I can remember even less humane methods of torture used in Viet Nam to get information. Hmm, seems that the information saved US lives.

Of course one could get rid of the steelwork altogether:

Lay a 10-foot long "plank" of heavy timber or beams on top of the picnic table and then stand the water buckets and boards on the timber.

One could mark each bucket and board so they could be reorganized after they scattered with bullet impact ...

Since I already have the IWBB, I will keep using it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
FREE "THE IRON BUFFALO 10"

Never!!!

Tomorrow, if Bip and Rip can get together on it, we shall be reprising:
.338/225 grain SHARRC FN at 3000+ fps
.458/450 grain North Fork FP at near 2600 fps

I lost those in the blackberry patch last time, and hope to recover them this time.

I also want to see how two softs do in the IWBB.

I loaded up some more .395 Tatanka softs
with H4350 and shot them:
GSC 340-grain HV at 2745 fps (copper hollowpoint)
S&H 310-grain VeloHex at 2793 fps (brass hexploding hollowpoint)

That was at 90 F degrees today using thrown powder charges of "about" 96.5 grains of H4350.

These are fireforming loads using the beautiful new Hornady brass in .416 Rigby, and GM215M primers.

The 310-grainers were landing 4" high at 100 yards.
The 340-grainers were landing 2" high at 100 yards.

Scope centerline to bore centerline distance = 1.75"

The 340-grainer is now zeroed for deer and coyote hunting.
5688 ft-lbs at the muzzle, and 3362 ft-lbs at 400 yards, if BC = .560 as claimed.

These fireforming loads were giving ~1-MOA groups at 100 yards.

The GSC was tried at 200 yards and 300 yards also, still about 1-MOA:
1" high at 200 yards,
6.5" low at 300 yards,
BC? How about 0.560 as GSC claimed? What little shooting I did today could very well have been a .560 BC, within my error. Somewhere around .500 or greater, no less than .500.

I want to see if the VeloHex can go straight in the IWBB, I am pretty sure the HV will. The penetration comparison between the two will be interesting.

RIP,
Seems like you and BIP are having more fun with the IWWB than I am with my Roosky Baikal. The left barrel would stay in the middle of the IWWB, but the right barrel wouldn't even come close to the center.

Yessirree, Colonel Professor Max,
Bip and I do have more fun than a barrel of monkeys, with the IWBB in the blackberry patch. A gallon of "sweet tea" was consumed by us two whilst goosing the buffalo today. And on a tea break we figured a way to bulldoze a 100-yard berm and make a half-acre pond for stocking with his bass and catfish hauls, if he can get them home alive.

Now the IWBB penetration poop from high to low, all impacts 25 yards from muzzle, two FN solids, one copper, one brass, and two softs, one copper and one brass, and many surprises:
************************************************

450 Dakota: .458/450-grain North Fork "FP" (FN) copper solid
2594 fps MV

79 inches:
Stopped on the 8-1 board, nose first (I guess from reading the boards and buckets):



The last one I tried made it to the 7-1 board and went out the top. This is an imprecise "science." But this bullet ranks near the top, no doubt.

************************************************

Next, in a surprisingly good showing for such a lightweight, hypervelocity solid (pushing the envelope in the name of "science"):

.338 Lapua Mag.: .338/225-grain brass SHARRC FN solid by S&H
3019 fps MV

69 inches:
May have flipped in the seventh water bucket and landed tail first, punching a hole in the bucket and a deep, round, about caliber-size dent in the 7-1 board:


************************************************

Another surprisingly good show for a brass HEXsploding soft:

.395 Tatanka: .395/310-grain VeloHEX by S&H
2793 fps
(No pressure signs, and still shaking and rattling room for more H4350.)

49 inches:
Sideways stop on board 5-1, but the hole in the front of the fifth waterbucket still looked like the jagged teeth on the front of the SHARRC were still chewing the holes, nose first:


None of the six brass fragments were found. First bucket was shattered to smithereens. I expect they went in six directions there.

Weight of sample bullet unfired: 309.6 grains
Weight of recovered bullet: 266.4 grains
Retained weight = 86.05%

************************************************

.395 Tatanka: .395/340-grain GSC HV
2745 fps
(No pressure signs but about 100% full case of H4350 with 96.5 grain powder charge.)

29.5 inches
Nose first yawing stop in the 3-1 board.
One of the three large copper petals was found in a fragment of the first bucket. I was surprised at such shallow penetration, the VeloHex and it tied at WBT score = 3 previously.
This proves the IWBB is a very tough medium, primarily for solid bullets.

Inside of backside of bucket number one, copper petal imbedded and bullet exit hole:


Outside of backside of bucket number one, copper petal sticking through, as found:


Copper petal pulled out of bucket:


The first surface of this cracked bucket (number three) is the entrance, and the smaller hole on the back surface is the exit hole, against board 3-1 where the bullet lodged:


Sample bullet weight unfired: 340.0 grains
Weight of bullet recovered minus all petals: 249.8 grains
Retained weight = 73.47 %
Weight of one petal recovered: 31.5 grains

Pond..??

Ok then...you'll need to add:

Live Crawfish (a few buckets) the bass like em.

A few Alligator Snapping Turtles.

One Louisiana Allimagator...(for entertainment while searching for stray bullets)

Any chance of getting a weight and length on the .338 FN...??

Excellent work as usual Doc.....many things to ponder by the pond.

Yep,
Good stocking suggestions, and add some minnows and tadpoles to that.
Then we are going to build a log shack beside the pond, so's there we can get down the fiddle, get down the bow, kick off our shoes and throw'em on the flo', for some not-quite LOOZEEANNA Saturday nights!

Ahem, where were we ...
Oh yes,
SHARRC .338/225-grain brass FN with gills:

weight of unfired sample bullet: exactly 225.0 grains
length of unfired sample bullet: 1.343"

weight of recovered bullet: 224.5 grains
length of recovered bullet: 1.299"

retained weight: 99.78%

I think that thing might work!

Incredibly stout brass.

Even a copper .458/450-gr North Fork FP escapes out the top of the 7th rumen of the IWBB sometimes.

We do note that the North Fork copper at over 2500 fps expanded less than the GSC copper at 2700 fps. Par for the course?

If andy should take note, the elephant inches correction for his bullet is:

79" IWBB - 8" of air and plastic = 71 elephant inches.

quote:

add some minnows

Somethin' ta keep the skeeters down...

One of the local boys might be able ta send ya a little gator...

What's the Dumbo equivalent here..??

Maybe you could drag out the .505 next time for a comparison to the .450...that might be of some interest!!

Now we are going to have to put up some electric "bobwire" privacy and game fencing if we have a pet gator. Mum's the word.
And I still owe you a bottle of Blackberry Wine squished out in Kentucky. Thanks for reminding me.

Let me know when the weather cools and you'ins is gonna start excamavatin' that thar catfish pond. I got kin movin into yer area in a few weeks Aw may have to get to...

Jay,
Maybe we can rig a high speed winch to tow a water skier across the 1/2 acre pond with a gator in it to make you feel at home?

Your .395/330-grain brass FN at 2812 fps is still the penetration champ: it made a deeper hole in the 8-1 board than the North Fork .458/450-grain copper FP.
Won by a nose.

Now we know that the only way to make up for lack of SD with velocity is to use a stronger alloy FN at the higher velocity.
Logical, regarding FN solids.

I am blown away by the difference between WBT and IWBB regarding softpoints.

The VeloHex and HV (used in this latest IWBB test) were tied at WBT score of 3, or 43.5" of water in 5-gallon water buckets.

In the IWBB, the Velohex went way farther than the HV, and gave the impression of staying nose first until entering the 5th bucket.



I suspect your

quote:

way to make up for lack of SD with velocity is to use a stronger alloy

Thanks for the affirmation. Some will substitute blind loyalty for physics indefinitely. Seems the Flat Earth Bullet Society have been consumed by the jungle or resigned to their halls of self-diefication.

I will have to shoot it at 100, 200, and 300 yards and estimate the BC of the VeloHex (VH) , like I did with the HV.
The smallest 3-shot group I had Saturday last was with the VeloHex.
It can go faster than 2793 in the .395 Tatanka, maybe 2900 fps. I need to at least add enough H4350 to make it quit rattling powder when crimped on the second SHARRC gill.

Might have to make a V-2.0 with higher BC and smaller HP...

There are no surprises here.

The HV went 29.5 inches, which is 60% of 49". It expanded to a frontal area about double that of the brass bullet.

Have we not discussed MoXa to distraction? If you want a bullet that will give maximum penetration in building material, do not use a GSC HV. In fact, do not use a GSC FN either, it is not what they are built for. Use a tungsten cored carrier built for the specific job of penetration and be prepared to extend the IWBB to double its length.

GSC HV bullets are designed to get the job done on animals, reliably, with consistent results and under all circumstances. They do not tumble, break apart at low speed where weight retention is needed, swap ends, or turn and exit in unpredictable directions. They work at impact speeds from 1600fps to as fast as you can drive them.

Regarding penetration as a single criterion to evaluate the performance of a hunting bullet, is as futile as using any other single criterion for evaluation of probable performance.

This extract, from an email we received three days ago, says it well. The subject is the performance of our 308 caliber 150gr HV in a 300 Weatherby: "In all, I found them to be extremely efficient and quick killers. From long shots and smallish animals (bushbuck at 245m) to shots at short distance on hefty animals. Their performance is always the same."

Mac, you are welcome to the distinction of building the deepest penetrating bullet on artificial media (when they dont turn or tumble of course). In any case, it is only because our specialised penetrators have not competed here. We will stick to building bullets that perform consistently on game.

quote:

tungsten cored carrier built for the specific job of penetration and be prepared to extend the IWBB to double its length.

That's on another thread I believe...

quote:

Mac, you are welcome to the distinction of building the deepest penetrating bullet on artificial media (when they dont turn or tumble of course). In any case, it is only because our specialised penetrators have not competed here. We will stick to building bullets that perform consistently on game.

Still pluckin' that same ol' banjo...??

Glad to see the Crocs haven't got ya yet...wouldn't be the same around here without your predictable tirades.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
There are no surprises here.

The HV went 29.5 inches, which is 60% of 49". It expanded to a frontal area about double that of the brass bullet.

Have we not discussed MoXa to distraction? If you want a bullet that will give maximum penetration in building material, do not use a GSC HV. In fact, do not use a GSC FN either, it is not what they are built for. Use a tungsten cored carrier built for the specific job of penetration and be prepared to extend the IWBB to double its length.

GSC HV bullets are designed to get the job done on animals, reliably, with consistent results and under all circumstances. They do not tumble, break apart at low speed where weight retention is needed, swap ends, or turn and exit in unpredictable directions. They work at impact speeds from 1600fps to as fast as you can drive them.

Regarding penetration as a single criterion to evaluate the performance of a hunting bullet, is as futile as using any other single criterion for evaluation of probable performance.

This extract, from an email we received three days ago, says it well. The subject is the performance of our 308 caliber 150gr HV in a 300 Weatherby: "In all, I found them to be extremely efficient and quick killers. From long shots and smallish animals (bushbuck at 245m) to shots at short distance on hefty animals. Their performance is always the same."

Mac, you are welcome to the distinction of building the deepest penetrating bullet on artificial media (when they dont turn or tumble of course). In any case, it is only because our specialised penetrators have not competed here. We will stick to building bullets that perform consistently on game.

Gerard,
Thanks for the reply.
I agree 100% with your statements.

The IWBB is a severe test, but it shows there may be more than one way to skin the cat.

I will commence to shooting game with your HV, and follow it with the VeloHex, alternating, pairs of critters of same species hopefully.

Maybe someday my game bag will grow so large that I have to carry my hernia around in a wheel barrow before me.

Back to "science":

I have not tested your .510/570-grain FN in the IWBB.
.475 is as high as I have gone so far.

This will give me a chance to see if bigger is better penetrator.

It will also allow me to explore a 1:15" Twist 50 BMG, loaded as slow as possible with the 570-grainer and going up until nose deforms enough to decrease penetration returns.

If I run out of .510/570gr FN's, you can make more, please?
You are not giving that bullet up for the 540-grainer are you?

500 NE twist is 1:15", and I hope to get as slow as 2100 fps with the 50BMG and your .510/570-grainer.
Your .510/570-grain FN is the one that passed through 8 feet of bison at 2400 fps MV (with 1:10" twist).
Comparing the IWBB results would be interesting there, as I do not have a large supply of live elephants to shoot.