Remember the Hastings announcement of the 20ga3.5"?
That was back in 2007.
Factory loaded with about 1-ounce total weight sabot-slug at about 2000 fps, from .615"/1:28" rifled barrel.
And they were touting that from a 19" bobbed H&R barrel???
Not bad for a boy's starter shotgun.

Has anyone seen any of that 3.5" plastic-hulled factory ammo from Hastings?
They sure advertised it, and offered to convert your H&R heavy-barrel or the TC Encore from 3" to 3.5".
They also had a 9-pound Martin Hagn falling block that was to be produced in the
"4-9 thousand dollar range depending on the grade of engraving."

The TC Encore came out in 20ga3" in 2007 also.
Looks ripe for conversion.
26" barrel of .615" groove and I presume 1:28" twist, haven't checked twist or slugged one yet.

The Encore is so much nicer regarding barrel thickness in 20ga than in 12ga.
Sweet.

The 600 NE has .620" groove and 1:30" twist by CIP.

Comparing the CIP brass and chamber specs of 600 NE and 20ga3" is interesting.
SAAMI 20ga3" specs are little different.

Max brass and min chamber specs with tolerances amongst all seems to indicate one could easily go one way or the other:

Use 600 NE brass to make 20ga3" brass.
However it could make for higher pressure loadings.

Or get RMC to make some 3.5" brass for 20ga and juggle the pressure versus brass strength issue.

"Irregardless" it seems that the TC Encore might handle pressures greater than the 35,534 psi or 2450 bar (Piezo CIP) map of the 600 NE.
Brass would be the limiting factor.

Go 3.5" long with RMC?
Or go 3" short with 600 NE brass?

I sure hope Bertram is not the only source of 600 NE brass.

If so, the choice would be made: RMC
Horneber or Jamison 600 NE 3" brass availability would complicate the choice.

Bullets:

Sizing down .620" to .615" is not too great a hurdle.
Hardcast lead FN Darwin slugs would weigh in around 2 ounces, maybe even precisely 900 grains.
An NEI .622/900gr mould is catalogued.
Sizing that down to .616" or .617" could be easily done.
Brooks' TRU-BORE Bullet Moulds can make a mould to your specs, etc.

.615-cal/900gr SD = .340
.620-cal/900gr SD = .334

However to really thrash the 600 NE 3" with a 615 NE 3.5",
a brass FN .615cal/800gr solid is needed: SD = .302

I calculate the 26" barreled 615 NE 3.5" might do this with an 800-grain brass FN:

2175 fps
35,534 psi
8400 ft.lbs.

That would be with RL-17 and enough space for a BPI 20ga gas seal under the slug.
Lessons learned from the 12GaFH.

Thanks Ed and Rob!

Penetration and KE would be superior to the 600 NE antique performance art, and only give up .005" on bullet diameter.

That would thrash the 600 NE 3" to hell and back. 20 Gauge From Hell.

But, if limited to 25,000 psi, you might still get 1950 fps with a .615/800-grain brass FN.
That would still thrash the 600 NE to purgatory and back.

20 Gauge From Purgatory.
A boy's shotgun.
20 Gauge Hellboy 3.5".
20 Gauge Hastings 3.5"
20GH

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

RIP a TC Encore can easily handle 65KPSI. Been there done that! I even confirmed with the Engineers at TC. Its a hell of a stout gun.-Rob

Rob,
Good.
Therefore the thing to do is to use 600 NE 3" brass to make 20ga3"/.615NE3" brass.
No rechambering nor modification of the TC Encore 20ga3" is needed.
Same for the H&R 20ga3" Super Slug.
But either could still be done for 20ga3.5" if such a wild hair tickles.
Maybe I need one of each.

CIP 600 NE 3"/SAAMI 20Gauge 3"

MAX CARTRIDGE
Rim diameter: .810"/.766"(-.018")
Rim thickness: .065"(-.010")/.060"
Base diameter: .700"/.697"(-.009")
Neck diameter: .650"/.684"(-.020")
Case length: 3.000"/3.010"(-.100")

MIN CHAMBER
Rim diameter: .820"/.767"(+.005)
Rim thickness: .066"/.0592"(+.005")
Base diameter: .701"/.6992"(+.005")
Neck diameter: .651"/.685"(+.005")
Chamber length: 3.010"/3.000"(+.005")

I included any labeled or obviously indicated tolerances on the drawings, minus on the brass, plus on the chamber.

CIP Headspace: .006" (max allowed) on 600 NE

A nominal .700" base diameter on a 600 NE might measure an actual .696" and fit into the 20ga chamber base that is .699" minimum.

600NE reloading dies should work well for any base sizing of brass.

Firing it in a 20 ga chamber will expand most of the taper out of the 600 NE case.
The 20ga chamber is considerably larger than the 600NE case at the neck.

Might end up with a pseudoshoulder by crimping .615 slugs into the end of the 600NE case.
About 17/thou per side.
Better than a 10.75x68mm Mauser!
600/.615 Nitro Express 3-Inch Bottleneck.
The 600/.615 NE Ackley Improved.


20ga throat is the usual 5-degree leade/forcing cone.
Any length desired of truncated cone FN bullet nose with 7-degree taper of the nose could be loaded to stick out beyond the 3" case mouth and crimped there. COL of 3.5" or longer could be used.

Thick-walled RMC 3" cases would be needed to use proper 20ga gas seals as case filler, and no pseudoshoulder.

So ... I have one 600 NE case to play with:
Turn the rim down a skosh and it might work in the TC Encore 20Ga3" as is?

Bertram 600 NE Bertram brass should be easy to work with in case forming for 20 Gauge Hellboy 3". Soft.
Also, the Bertram stuff is so variable, some of those Bertram cases might work as is with no modification.

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

Interesting! Are there any SxS 20g's that could handle the pressures generated?

quote:

Are there any SxS 20g's that could handle the pressures generated?

Good question. Merkel for SXS 20ga?
CZ SXS 20ga with double triggers and Greener crossbolt: "Huglu," Czech word for "quail."
Ruger Red Label O/U 20ga.
Smooth bores that could be used with paradox rifled chokes?
Of course making sure that the smoothbore is reamed out to .615" up to the screw-in choke of .615" groove.

But, monobloc of a 12 gauge with rebarreling would be easier than finding a 10 gauge to turn into a 12GaFH double.

Adding 5 pounds of lead to the plastic butt of the Encore would be a good idea. Interchangeable heavy butt for bench work.

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

Barrel wall thickness is probably the major limiting factor. Make sure that at the muzzel you have at least 0.125 to be safe. The .600NE usually is a 35KPSI cartridge to achieve the tropical load of 1950fps as I remember.-Rob

Jawohl,
Heavy 20ga barrels in a 12ga shotgun monobloc,
or else, yer cruzin for a bruzin (and/or traumatic amputation).

Never fear with the TC Encore single shot with lead in the butt.
A 50BMG muzzle brake on the end would make a nice counterbalance.

3 standard 600NE (2.8" and 3.0") 900-grain bullet loads:

Cordite:
100.0 gr >>> 1850 fps (2.8")
110.0 gr >>> 1950 fps (3.0" tropical)
120.0 gr >>> 2050 fps (3.0")

CIP MAP = 2450 bar = 35,534 psi

A 20GH3" aka 600/.615 NE 3" Ackley Improved with modern powder and brass FN ought to do better than those old 600 NE loads.

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

I talked to RMC when I was thinking about doing this on an NEF. They'll do 3.5" brass

The T/C 20 gauge rifle barrels are advertised as 1:24 twist.

At wholesale, pricing is $240/285 for blued/stainless.

I wonder who's making "proper" 600 NE groove diameter barrels at a decent price(Krieger is $310 for a .621 groove 1-20 twist blank).

A five unit order from MGM gets a pretty decent discount, might save in the long run for bump dies, brass, moulds and aggravation to go a "hybrid" 600 NE chamber.

As long as I could still chamber and shoot a 20 gauge shotgun shell - it would be legal in Indiana for whitetail.

I'm liking the Hellboy moniker, a LOT.

RIP,

The Encore is a 65 ksi rifle on the '06 case head. It doesn't really like that kind of pressure with the H&H aka belted magnum case head. I would definitely be very cautious with my load work up using a case head as large as the 600NE/20ga in the Encore. Also, head spacing may be an issue as there can be a significant amount of head space in the Encore system. The Encore works best with rimmed bottlenecked cases as one can easily adjust the head spacing by carefully setting the shoulder position. This would not be possible with the straight walled rimmed 600NE/20GA. Therefore, I would strongly recommend the barrel be chambered to a specific Encore frame to minimize the head spacing variation.

You may also want to discuss this project with a true Encore expert, say JD Jones.

Have fun with this.

All I can say is ouch! I seems to me you would need to add alot of weight to it to make it shootable. I'm not sure the buttstock bolt could handle the recoil. There's alot of things to think about before you touch that one off.

Scotts- As usual your reading skills and comprehension of what you read are minimal at best. Perhaps you should simply shut up? Did you ever read the 12GaH threads? We easily pushed 1000gr bullets over 1850fps with no issues out of a NEF with just stout but very manageable recoil. Guess what we have done the same thing with a Encore in 12Ga. Making a custom barrel for a Encore is just a monoblock away. Setting headspace like that is amateur hour stuff.-Rob

Thanks to everyone (except the assclown) for replies.

Initial search for 600 NE components:
Nothing readily available, backorder or custom order status on dies and brass.
RCBS 600 NE dies are about $450.
IIRC, 600 NE brass is about 9 to 14 bucks a pop depending on quantity ordered (1000 or 20), and listed as Bertram.
An A-Square "wallet" of 10 hulls was over $200, and would probably turn out to be secretly made by Bertram. Just a guess.
I have one Bertram 600 NE case to look at.
It is balloon-headed-thin, and looks about as strong as Magtech shotgun brass for cowboy loads.
It is supposed to handle 36Kpsi? Surely no more!

RMC 3.5" 20ga brass looks a whole lot better.
I would rather use that to whatever pressure it will handle,
in the larger-than-600NE chamber for the Hastings 3.5" 20ga.

Just have to order from RMC and wait the usual 6 months to get it ...

RMC 3.85" 12ga brass was about 9 bucks per hull for quantities as small as 10 per pop.
20ga3.5" will surely cost less.
Cheaper and better than Bertram 600 NE brass for my purposes.
The RMC 20GH3.5" will be my choice.

20 Gauge Hellboy.

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

I tested an Encore Prohunter 12ga with its original
rifled barrel and reamed it to 3.5" chamber.
Using 3.5 plastic and 3.5 RMC brass it does the
same as a NEf. I added weight for shooting comfortable.
A guy down state now deer hunts with it.

There are guys who are shooting the 20ga 3.5"
NEFs with 3.5" RMC cases. Some have lengthened
3" chambers to 3.5"..Ed

Ed,
Hastings in Kansas advertised that conversion in 2007, for plastic-hulled 20ga3.5".
H&R/NEF heavy barrel bobbed to 19" with 410-grain saboted slug at 2000 fps.
The lead slug is only 350 grains, sabot supposed to discard on impact.

I am looking for "20 Gauge Hellboy" ballistics:
Full 20 Bore Rifled Slug diameter:

.615/800-grain brass slug (SD = .302) at 2175 fps,or
.616/900-grain lead slug(SD = .340) at 2050 fps.

Can that be done?
Has anyone ever done that?

Either would duplicate the 8400 ft.lbs. of max 600 NE ballistics ... those 600NEs were probably "ballistic-pendulumed" with 30" barrel.

The TC Encore with 26" rifled barrel in 20ga3" is thicker walled than their 12Ga version,
with at least 4" long full diameter cylinder breech shank/knoxform.
Same external diameter breech, in 20ga as in 12ga?
The 20ga 26" muzzle diameter is .880", that makes for 0.1325" wall thickness in the grooves at muzzle, satisfies Rob.
Breech is about 1" diameter, no less than .995", much better in 20ga than in 12ga, eh?

The H&R with 24" heavy barrel would do nicely too.
Hastings does that conversion routinely.
TC came out with that 20ga3" Encore after Hastings announced their 20ga3.5" conversions of the H&R/NEF and suggested an Encore would be good too ...

The A-Square manual shows a 600 NE 3" load that RMC brass could handle:

26" barrel
900-grain Lion Load soft
CCI-250 primer
A-Square brass

RL-22 155.0 grains >>> 1897 fps >>> 27,900 piezo psi
RL-22 159.0 grains >>> 1943 fps >>> 26,700 piezo psi (sic) ...

Uh oh, more material for the assclown.
A-Square typoed the manual again!
Surely they just got those last two pressures in the table switched.

Of course a 209 magnum primer might require some Blue Dot starter with RL-22.
Bigger than 600NE3" chamber in the 20GH3.5" and room for a gas seal under the slug ...
Or RL-17, 209 magnum primer, and gas seal with no Blue Dot starter required...

Reload with RMC handtools and MEC Super Sizer, etc.

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

What about the new Savage 20ga. sluggun
I think that would be a safe frame.

Yep, Savage 220 is ripe for picking.
Single 3.5" loader, 3" followup shots ...
... or Hubel-Matic-Magazine conversion for 3.5" brass?
Plenty of room in the plastic stocked one to fill with lead and epoxy for weight.

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

The RE22 may ignite ok in that smaller diameter
compared to larger 12,10,8 gauges.
The 209 mag primers are stronger than rifle.
And you can do it easy with RE17 loads.

The Encore and NEF guns, and RMC brass
would handle those pressures fine.
Those pressures, 27k equates to 65k in 30-06
as far as bolt thrust is figured.
The Savage 220 action will take more
pressure yet, in 20 ga up to 40k
with good brass cases.Still have to
limit plastic cases to 15-16k..Ed

Ed,
Thanks for all your help along the roads to hell!

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:
The T/C 20 gauge rifle barrels are advertised as 1:24 twist ...

I'm liking the Hellboy moniker, a LOT.

fireball168,
Special thanks for that too!
And the NEFers are 1:28"?

About all the 600 NE esoterica you posted above, custom TC barrels, etc.: Watch out! The devil may make you do it!
Repeat after me: "Get thee behind me satan!"


DRG says: Kiss my grits!

I may order one of those factory T/C barrels this week to make a chamber casting.

Its still two weeks till opening day, if the forcing cone is an inch long, I won't be out much if it doesn't come out the way I'd like - somebody would buy the damn thing if the money is right.

If in lengthening the chamber to 3.5" gets into "virgin" barrel" past the forcing cone - could tighten up the neck clearance for the "new" brass.

RIP - I've had some of that Magtech brass on the ledge above my reloading bench for awhile now - thinking 20 gauge all long. This may be the nudge to get me rolling on it.

Anybody got another barrel maker for a .620/.621 groove?

fireball168,
Still thinking of a 600 NE instead of a 20 Gauge Hellboy?

The 20 gauge H&R 1871/NEFer Ultra Slug has what sort of barrel, like so:
?
.615" grooves
1:28" twist
1.100" breech diameter
1.050" muzzle diameter
24" length standard heavy barrel.
Hastings bobs them to 19", safe for minimum legal length.

Whatever the exact specifics, the NEFer is fatter and heavier than the TC Encore,
2 inches shorter barrel,
similar twist,
1:28" versus 1:24", IIRC, both being faster than the 1:30" twist of the 600 NE.

I would like to do a 20 Gauge Hellboy on both,
fraternal twins from hell,
Hastings 3.5" chamber.
Brass from RMC.
Homemade hardcast slugs sized to .616", 800 to 900 grains.
Commercial .620-caliber softs and solids sized down to .615" or .616".
8400 ft.lbs. should be good for kicks,
whether 900 grains at 2050 fps or
800 grains at 2175 fps.

When my younger brother and I were prepubertal, we used to take our Christmas 20 gauge single shots to bed with us.
He had the top bunk.
I had the bottom bunk.
I had him covered from below.

DRG says: Kiss my grits!

I ordered some 3.5" 20 gauge SAAMI brass from RMC.
Apparently I am the first to order that.
New ground.
I am still the only person to get 12 Gauge 3.85" brass from Dave Casey too.

Ain't I special?

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Left a phone message with Hastings.
Will see if they have any plastic-hulled 20g3.5" ammo for sale.
Also, what is their deal on rechambering Encores and NEF Ultra Slugs?
If I get my own reamer, it will be to SAAMI spec, lengthened, but with a noncutting rim.
I can do the handjob myself.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

I'm thinking it's too skinny and only 3"oal but would .600OK brass pinched down at the neck to .615" serve for 20GaFH cases?

Just Boomie-ing...

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:
I'm thinking it's too skinny and only 3"oal but would .600OK brass pinched down at the neck to .615" serve for 20GaFH cases?

Just Boomie-ing...

I have become a verb

Yes you can size 600NE cases down to hold 20 ga slugs,
but the RMC 20 cases might be cheaper. And the 600NE cases
are loose at the mouth in a 20 ga chamber, so
you'll overwork the brass and shorten case life.
The 20 ga cases guys had made made were done to fit chambers
the guys told me, as opposed to loose SAAMI specs, so as to
keep clearance .003" on the bases like rifles, as opposed to
9-10 thousands or more clearance on SAAMI spec cases.
Turned cases last longer that way. I think RMC likes to make them
fit so they last.It is hard to sizes the base of the cases
when they get expanded too much. For regular spec 3.5" 20ga
reamers Manson and others already have made them.Ed

RIP - Did you order any extras on the brass? I'd be in for at least a couple pieces if you did - and will participate in the reamer cost if you'd like.

Re. RMC 20ga3.5" brass:

Goldarn it! If someone would order some of the RMC brass besides me, it might get made sooner!
You can buy in quantities as small as one (1) box containing ten (10) hulls.
Price will be somewhere in the $5 to $8 per hull range, I am guessing.

Hastings says (my hearsay from phone call):



Get plastic-hulled 20g3.5" slug ammo from
www.slugsrus.com
It is loaded by Polywad using Chaddick (sp? French?) hulls and Alliant powder.
Said to sell for $12.95/box of 5.
$115 for a half-case 50 rounds (ten boxes of 5).
$220 for a case, 100 rounds.

Get 20g3.5" Hastings-chambered NEFer from Sports South or some other distributor, using your local FFL.
Hastings will not accept your used gun to rechamber anymore, due to liability issues.

Clymer made the reamer but only sells them in lots of 6 reamers at a time, says Hastings ...
(That's bizzarro, I say.)

A gunsmith associated with
www.slugsrus.com
did buy six reamers from Clymer and will rechamber your NEFer or Encore if you send it to him.
Offered under "gunsmithing" at the slugsrus site, you send them your 20g barrel and he will rechamber it for $120.
For an extra 40 bucks they will bob the barrel to 19" and crown it.

Hastings says reamer has a 5-degree forcing cone, and still allows good accuracy with 2.75" slug ammo in the 3.5" chamber.

I say Dave Kiff would be my choice for a reamer maker.
DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

I'll try to call Clymer in the morning to see what the deal is on the reamer - otherwise I agree - off to Kiff.

(drum roll) ... wait for it ... are you ready? ...

Mossberg had Dave Kiff make up some reamers for them in 20 Gauge 3.5 " several months ago, "for some testing."

I invision a Mossberg Ulti-Mag Pump in 20g3.5",
smoothbore with 12 Gauge barrel ahead of the chamber.
Fully rifled slug barrel of .615" groove to go with it.
Just guessing.

20 Gauge 3.5" is SAAMI.

I doubt that .615 Nitro Express 3.5" using RMC brass will be governed by CIP. Maybe RIP?

What the "hell," it's the same as the smoothbore/rifled-slug SAAMI specs,
just uses RMC brass hulls instead of plastic, and higher pressure, new MAP.

20 Gauge 3.5" shotgun/.615 Hellboy Express: The poor little orphan Hellboy must be adopted!

"Riflery Internationale Permanente" will get right on it.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

I'll take one in a revolver carbine please ...

You can get the full size replica
Jay... see if you can make a working model
Make that 12 ga pepperbox smooth bore.

What the hell is that Boomer ...?? The slotted chamber ...??

Manson will sell you 3.5" 20 ga reamer one at
a time. If Mossy is experimenting they'll
probably do rifled 3.5" 20 ga in pumpguns
and their 695 bolt action. Lets hope so and that they
take up the message that WIN finally got sunk in,
to make heavy long barrels as well as Mickey
Mouse barrels.Hastings puts out test results on their factory
ammo from long test barrels then the customer gets real short
20ga barreled NEF and wonders where 200 fps went to.
Dummies selling guns shouldn't listen to gun rags, as the
reputation being screwed up is their own.You know the
"short barrel, short case, 204Ruger is a big bore" bunch.
The reports from the short barrel owning guys, don't show
chrono readings of 2000 as the factory reports, more
like 1800..Ed

Silly movie prop toy gun.
The chambers open to air on the side are crazy.
Obamacare gunnut euthanizer mockup?

Plenty of good 12 gauge shotguns around to monobloc into 20g3.5" Hellboy express rifles.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Rip...
What do you think of a 410 From Hell using 9,3x74 brass? Ream out a 405 Win #1

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
RIP,

The Encore is a 65 ksi rifle on the '06 case head. It doesn't really like that kind of pressure with the H&H aka belted magnum case head. .

Really? .. the WSM, RUM, and 7remmag are all factory chamberings .. you have NO CLUE .. would you PLEASE delete your ID

Jeff,

I am a bit more conservative than JD Jones, but this is what he has to say about the strength of the Encore. From the SST Industries website.

quote:

Many larger cartridges that develop lower pressures than those in the pressure range of the .300 Win Mag may also be chambered in the Encore. If the cartridges are larger in diameter then the 300 Mag, pressures must be reduced in relation to cartridge diameter. Also, many of the larger diameter cartridge cases are not capable of handling the pressures generated by the Win Mag. SSK has a good idea of what is suitable for the ENCORE and also what isn't. We have tested it with a large variety of calibers. Remember, this is a break open action design--not a large, heavy bolt action firearm.

So I guess I will trust in JD's experience and revise my statement to say that the Encore is a 63 ksi gun with the H&H belted case head.

ScottS-In Your drug induced fantasy world you might consider that others have gone well beyond the somewhat basic efforts of JD Jones. Please dont tell US what you have read somewhere, because WE DONT CARE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY! Comprendo Retardo?-Rob