The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 600 NE 3"/615 HellboyExpress 3.5"/20GaGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Fourbore has a point, With no modifications at all, the Savage 220 can handle loads that are equal to a 600 Nitro? Holy Crap Batman, I need to order some brass too!! John  Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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Are you guys talking about orders of 100 pieces each or 500 or...? I'm just trying to figure out what is a reasonable starting point. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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I am thinking... the 220 magazine may need modification. A crimped 3 inch shot shell is shorter than a loaded 3 inch brass case with the bullets seated out to the first band. Maybe the first issue - magazine work. Is that all or will the longer rounds feed. Q's for Ed perhaps. Not even thinking of a 3.5 inch case (like a full 3 inch though), but also would like to have loaded ammo that looks the parts, with bullets seated out like old classic DG rounds. | |||
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My initial order was either 20 or 40, can't recall. | |||
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Fourbore, Your right. I got all over excited.  Problem with the mag is that its not a blind mag, that would be easy, its a regular mag that comes out. I have never modified a mag so I dont know how hard it would be. On the other hand, I still need to order some brass since I have an Encore Pro Hunter and all I need is a barrel. I was really Digging the thought of a bolt action hotrod. Now that I'm thinking of it. I read an article on the web called "Dancing with the Fat Lady". The guy was shooting a 585 light nitro, killed some Buff with it. Now I wonder just how much go power we could muster with the brass cased 20ga with an overall length dictated by the mag. It might be pretty good. John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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I am the guy got over excited. My bad. After a year hang around this forum, I am still sitting on the fence, as far as an over 50 is concerned. The popular 600ok, is rebated, braked, mostly single stacked and just more than I want. The 577/585 designs, guns with staggered magazines and firing proven 750 gr bullets at game hunting velocities - dont seem to be catching on. These gauges from hell sound good - But a single shot H&R is not very sexy. This 20Ga FH is still got my interest. | |||
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I honestly think the concept of the 20ga 31/2 inch, like the Hastings, will take off. When that happens we will have a huge variety of guns to use. All we really need is one gun mag writer with a current Hastings Handi in 20ga 31/2 with some of the brass case slow powder reloads. Then everyone wants one.  John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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Dave Casey will take an order for as few as 10 pieces of brass, that is a box. And he gets to them when he gets to them. | |||
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Fourbore, Your right the H&R isn't very sexy. But the Encore Pro Hunter looks a lot better with laminated thumbhole stock. I haven't seen my stock yet. My wife ordered it and she said it was a "surprize" and very pretty. GOD ONLY KNOWS WHAT THAT MEANS I don't think anyone makes a stock in Pink, God I hope not. John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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I'm doing a 20ga 3.5" on my FBW falling block as well as my 700HE and later a 16ga Fh.Switchbarrel. And later this spring when RMC makes cases I'll having 20 of the 3.5" made. By going with 3.5 I can also shoot the hastings plastic 3.5" cases.I've had so many guys wanting our slow powder loads tested in 20ga 3.5", getting 600NE equivalent power.So I found a way with FBW.ED MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Mr. Hubel, Where are you getting the 3.5 plastic hulls? | |||
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I'll pickup some Hastings loads, shoot and reload.Not many but enough to test. MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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One step closer.  | |||
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ok, so if I understand this thread, I can buy a rifled 20 ga slug barrel for my NEF (for about $100), get some proper brass shotshell hulls and other components and have the equiv of a 600 NE? I get confused with the performance figures quoted above. If I stick with the standard 3" chamber rifled slug barrel, what kind of velocities/energies is it going to be capable of? I imagine that 3" brass hulls are much easier to get than 3.5" hulls, plus there is no chamber alteration to do - as long as performance is up there. Like fourbore, I would want to have the bullets seated out just like real rifle rounds, and this should be no problem in a single shot. How much total gun weight would I want to have for this combo? This sounds like the best way to get a big bore ever! I already have the action. Would I want to get the Tracker II barrel with irons already mounted on it, or the heavy Ultra Slug Hunter barrel that is drilled and tapped. No need for a scope on a big bore like this is there? I assume I would want the heavy barrel just for the added weight, though. I guess, the short question is exactly what do I need if I'm starting from an NEF rifle I already have in hand, and what can expect from it? You guys and your dang ideas fillin' my head! ============================== "I'd love to be the one to disappoint you when I don't fall down" --Fred Durst | |||
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Almost, To get in the 600NE power level you need the 3 1/2 inch Brass cases by Rocky Mountain Cartridge, they are a special order item. You need the lovely shiny Reamer in the photo above. Bullets are a minor pain. The 600NE bullets are a tiny bit to big and I cant find a sizing die for a .615 bullet. Guess I'll make one. I'll be ordering a cast bullet mold from Mountain Molds anyway so its all good. I don't know who this Ed Hubel guy is, but if he ever has a 6 and a half foot 300 pound guy walk up to him and give him a big hug: It's Me John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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PhMn, Ed's up in Mi. Maybe 1200 miles dead north of you. the_captain, NICE M/S !!!  Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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It is just as easy to get 3.5" brass as 3" 20ga made by RMC.They are turned. About same price. Either length.The only other brass cases would be real short, like drawn magtech. And couple months RMC will be making some for me and RIP and any others who call them and get on the list.They like to do many orders at once. Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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fireball168, Is that a reamer in your pocket, or are you just happy to see Mae West? 5 degree or custom 7 degree forcing cone? I had to order a second pilot to fit my rifling. Smaller for the TC than for the NEFer. 
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When you say 600 NE power levels, are you talking 900 gr @ 2050 fps, or 900 gr @ 1850 fps? Those are the high and low ranges for loadings I have seen. So, what if I just stuck with the 3" case in the factory 3" chamber. How fast could I push a 900 gr bullet? The 3.5" case is ideal, no doubt, but this would be an experimental thing for me, and the least cost route is the best. It sounds like the RMC cases are drawn brass, right? What about using lathe turned cases? We are not talking about real high pressure cartridges here. In fact, The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions specifically lists the 600 NE as a good candidate for solid brass turned cases (among other old black power type cartridges). A guy with a small lathe could whip up a small batch of test cases pretty quickly. Did RMC give you a cost projection for the 3.5" cases? ============================== "I'd love to be the one to disappoint you when I don't fall down" --Fred Durst | |||
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the_captain, No, the RMC cases are not drawn brass. They are CNC "lathe-turned" from brass bar stock. Very thick walled, and have a very heavy head/base, and a snug fit inside for standard 20 gauge wads. The MagTech cowboy brass is drawn brass, very thin, balloon-headed stuff that is only 2.5" long, or threabouts, IIRC. It requires wads bigger than the nominal gauge, like 11 gauge in a 12 gauge hull, etc. RMC brass is stronger than MagTech brass. I defer to Ed for any further technical issues. | |||
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No definite price has been quoted on the 3.5" 20 gauge brass. The 3.85" 12 gauge brass was less than $9 per hull. Will post here if I ever get any 3.5" 20 gauge brass. | |||
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Well, since we are talking about lathe turned cases anyway, I talked to a buddy of mine. I'm in the CAM business and know some guys with CNC equipment and other machine tools. Turns out that we could very likely get a small run of maybe 100-120 pcs in a very short turnaround time. Basically, we just see when he can get one weekend day to run a bunch of these on the lathe. We're probably looking at days/weeks instead of months to wait for RMC. This wouldn't be enough to feed all the rifles full time (at least not right away), but it would give us a small lot of hulls each to do some testing and load development using the real deal instead of plastic hulls or waiting. So, the questions I have are: - how many people are interested, and how many cases is each person wanting? - I assume regular half-hard brass is the standard for cases. Are there any objections to this or other material suggestions? - do we want these cut to use a 210 shotshell primer or a regular large rifle primer? - does anyone have a print or drawing of the desired case dimensions, esp the internal dimensions? That would be helpful. I could get the part modeled up and then all he has to do is run them. Creating the NC program for a part like this would be very simple. Also note that we could cut these to any specs you wanted. We just need to decide on a standard. Now, they won't be headstamped with anything, and there is no company backing the products, but I know the guy who would be doing the machining, and he is good with a lathe - has been for a long time. You guys talk/think it over and get back to me with a number and a drawing or print of the desired part and I will see how fast my guy can get us a lot of them, as well as what kind of price they would be. We can see how to move on it with more info at that time. Just tossing this out to try and help. I'd hate to see this concept have to wait for something as simple as a few cases not being made up. It would be a start anyway. ============================== "I'd love to be the one to disappoint you when I don't fall down" --Fred Durst | |||
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I'll help--I want 10. 3.5". Do it just like RMC does it. Which is--- Half hard brass. Shotgun primer pocket.It is easiest to do and mag shotgun primers are stronger than large rifle primers. If you and your machinest go with it. I'll send a print and a sectioned 12ga RMC I have here so you can match the corner radius on a smaller scale for 20ga, that RMC does for best strength and safety.The only variations will be on the inside diameter based on what diameter barrel and slug a guy is using. All outside diameters are same for a good fit in a standard reamed 20 ga chamber. Chamber to be at industry standard. Then you can figure price and let us know. Be best if you did a couple first and have me test them for expansion and how they resize, etc.. As I have a set of 20ga Hollywood sizing dies the go in my ammomaster.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Hey Ed, You might want to send a drawing of the 8 gauge while your at it. If that was OK of course. John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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On 8ga we got to figure out what length brass case we are going to do.If the guy does 20s ok and wants to try 8s we can all of us in 8ga deal can figure it out on 12ga FH thread, before I chamber. We got some time for that, as it'll take a while to get barrel boring stuff set up.ED MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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the_captain, I'll take 10 of your cases too if you can get them made. However, a few might want to express more interest in RMC brass to Dave Casey, as he might be thusly reminded to make it sooner. I post from an iphone mostly lately, have to work too much at things besides hobbies, but I can dig up the SAAMI brass spec externals and try to come up with some internals too, as Ed suggests, he has that covered. | |||
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Don't forget to get an FFL 6 so you don't break any federal laws ... you might also consider the couple grand in tooling you'll need to set up a single ended lathe for making cases. | |||
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Hmmmm, I think the same lathe can make bullets too. John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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FFL6  | |||
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Mac - I believe that the 06 FFL is only needed if you are making and selling complete cartridges. Since this in only going to be machined brass parts with no powder/primers/bullets involved, I don't think there is any special license needed. Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong... Ed and all - please do send me a drawing of what we need. That would greatly simplify drawing up the turning profiles. I believe my e-mail is listed in my profile. If not, send me a PM and we'll get it worked out. My guy is ready to go as soon as we get dimensions. I'm not trying to uproot any of Dave's business. Definitely don't want to hurt anyone in the shooting industries. I just figured this would be a good way to get a few cases into our hands for testing and proof of concept while RMC is backlogged. This won't be a full on case making business. I just happen to know a guy who can do a bit of machine work to keep the train rolling. If I had a small CNC lathe, I'd do this myself. Of course, a CNC lathe in my garage would be very busy making bullets! So we're looking at a batch of maybe 30 cases to start with? ============================== "I'd love to be the one to disappoint you when I don't fall down" --Fred Durst | |||
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 Ja! AND you'll need a business entity before you can get one of those plus little things like city, county, and state zoning and code compliance for the BATFE to sign off AND you'll need some liability insurance. The last detail ain't so easy without a track record in the business. The easy part will be making the cases cause it's real simple to hold tolerance and finish with a long thin narrow part in a soft material. Soooooo ..... add all that up and it'll be a few months to get approval and those hand full of cases might cost $50 or so a piece in real money IF someone is willing to donate their time.  | |||
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Ya know, With all the damn government red tape and everyone in your face. Its no wonder companies leave the USA everyday. I've got a friend of mine that had a failing company making roofing tile. Moved it to mexico from Florida. Now doing great, he lives in San Antonio. It's just FRUSTRATING  John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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Yep - then in SoCal you got City inspectors with no clue driving around doing faux environmental inspections of shops. It's about generating revenue for the bolshevik class not about safety. | |||
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I prefer no worries about Jack booted thugs. Please cancel my order from the_captain. Support RMC. | |||
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I made the original .600OK cases out of 360 half hard and never ever pushed them over 30Kpsi! I didnt go over that level till the Horneber brass was available. The turned cases and I still have some did ok but eventually despite annealing cracked. I was always carefull not to exceed that level with turned brass cases. If you want real .600NE level performance I'm not sure how safe that would be. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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They can make some for themselves as a personal deal, like Rob did for his, and give a few to friends to test and help with load work, without being considered as being in the ammo manufacturing business for profit needing a license. Building half hard brass cases in thin sides like most rifle cases need, does give splitting problems, but heavy sided shotgun cases like the ones built that match sides of the plastic cases are better, as I haven't had RMC 12ga case split yet even with many firings.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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CIP 600 NE 3" MAP is 2450 bar = 35,525 psi With a 3.5" 20 gauge at 30,000 psi it will be close! But hey, with a a case full of RL-17, pressure for velocity with 900-grainers might be more favorable than it was with Cordite. | |||
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And RMC says their cases are good and have been tested to 38,000 psi. And by my formula I did afew at 35,000 ok.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Just as an FYI to end the speculation, I called the local ATF field office and talked to one of the industry agents. There is NO license of any type needed to manufacture empty brass casings. The type 06 FFL applies to manufacturing loaded ammunition, not machined brass parts. Therefore, I'm not going to worry about the gov't in this deal. Please do keep your orders in at RMC. There is no way I could or would pull volume business away from them, but I am going to be getting a few of these cases made for my immediate use. If you do decide you want a few for testing, please let me know in the next few days or so. ============================== "I'd love to be the one to disappoint you when I don't fall down" --Fred Durst | |||
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Did you speak with the janitor ...?? This is absolutely incorrect. The language is clearly stated in GCA 1968 and you will need the license if you are going to manufacture/sell cartridge cases. This topic has been covered here at AR inumerable times as well. If you have interest, call your contact back and have him/her send you a letter stating it's OK for you to manufacture without a license. Then post it here so we can see it.  | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 600 NE 3"/615 HellboyExpress 3.5"/20Ga
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