Thanks Ed...you must be seating that 490 gr bullet about 1/4" deep...0.500" of water in this case weighs about 38 gr, added to a 600 NE give about 250 gr and change.

What ball powder are you using?

Is this 30" barrel smooth or rifled?

Do you have a good starting load for RL-17 for a 500-750 gr bullet by any chance?

Anyone you know selling .615-.620 size jacketed or cast lead bullets in the 600 gr range?

I will get a mould block from Steve B once I decide what weight bullet I want...probably just a shorter version of RIP's/Steves's very nice projectile.

Mean time I will just use 20 ga slugs and turn some bullets out of brass while I play around.

Thanks again

Luck

1- Why did this case need to be 3.5"? Is it because

it's lathe turned, so weaker than a drawn case

would be, and the long length reduced the pressure

for a given amount of powder?

2- Could a 600 NE or other large rifle brass have it's

primer pocket altered by a man at home to use shot-

gun primers IF the L M R primers became flat out im-

possible to get?

Longer case allows more slower powder to get high
velocity at lower pressures; which the guns most
folks use need lower pressures, than big rifle actions.
And lower peak pressures than rifles are also what is
needed for turned cases.And cases at 7 bucks each,
fraction of 600NE cases is good also. 600NE cases can
be drilled out to use shotgun primers.

The lead slug I seated was a Dixie hardened 490gr .620" lead
seated .30". The powder I measured with is
Magpro ball and it was settled and compressed.
I don't know of any 600gr to buy. I'm using an extra junk
barrel to get the FBW tested. Bad rifling I honed to smooth up
the top of. I'll have to test RE17 in it when going with
490 gr. Top loads with case filled would be with RL25
and W-780 ball about 35K psi. With Re17 less powder
with 20 ga wads to fill space.Or use RE17 with SPW
as its length takes up space.You can use wadcups also
with 20ga Lymans and RE17..Ed

Thanks again.

Originally I thought about doing a 600 OK Savage or Ruger barrel(shortened to 2.7"), but lack of bullets put that one in the "think it over" catagore. I also looked hard at your 585 HE Short and almost did it instead of my 510 Makatak...and may still do an extra swap barrel for the Ruger 77...looks like I'm past that now...at least with the 20 ga there is more than one function.

"Load from a Disk" does journeyman work for the most part, but is lacking in many areas. I've been putting off ordering QL because I keep saying the last rifle I built will BE the LAST rifle I build. I keep blowing that off also. Guess I'll have to relent on the QL.

Gardner Cashe has some Lyman 20ga Sabots listed but isn't taking orders on that for a while. I would like to try those.

LD comes up with IMR4831 as the slowest powder. 157.4 gr/1831fs/30098CUP at 75% load density...~28KPSI???...for a 900gr bullet in the 3.5" case. I'm guessing 150 gr of RL25 with a 500 gr +/- would be a good starting load ...

Yes/no???

The squirrels are out in force so I won't be getting much work done for the next couple months...and not much sleep...loading for 6 varminting rifles at night, then during the day blowing off last years larger cal rounds and shooting everything I had reloaded, makes for a very pleasant spring/summer.

Thanks again

Luck

Ed...another question on the 20ga/615 HE...all the NEF 20ga shotguns are listed as using the SB1 frame...Ultra slug hunter,
Slug hunter, Tracker doesn't matter.

The 10 and 12 ga are listed as a SB2 frame.

The difference in frame strengths between the SB1 and SB2 will have a BIG bearing on just how much pressure the 20ga/615 HE can be loaded to.

I was going to send my SB2 USH frame in for the change over but after checking prices I could get a complete 20ga Slug hunter with the heavy barrel for about 30 bucks more than having the barrel swapped. But after reading the fine print about the different frames, cheap ISN'T BETTER in this case.

Would you opt for the SB1 frame or the SB2 frame in this application???

I'm wondering how many others caught this...I'm sure I'm NOT the only one.

Thanks

Luck

Ed thanks for the additional info on primer pockets!

All frames for last 6-7 years are alloy
and heatreated. There is a SB1 regular shotgun frame
with big firing pin, There is same frame with
smaller firing pin for their rifles called SB2.
Both of these the breach diameter is about 1.1"

There is SB2 frame for 10ga and the 12ga Ultras.
These have big firing pins, and breach diameter
is about 1.2".

All 12gauges except 12ga Ultra, and 20ga,
are on SB1 frames, All their newer rifles are called
SB2 frames(small pin) that are same size as SB1 frames.
So any new 20ga is ok for the brass cases and
25-27,000 psi loads. I keep my 12ga Ultra at
tops of about 23,000 psi. Now in a savage 20ga
or the FBW 20 ga I'm doing, we can go 35k psi,
which matches top limit for the case, so that sizing
is easy.Ed

Thanks again Ed. I found the Dixie 20 ga slugs and will get some ordered...I need more 12 ga Terminators and want to try that 870 gr one also. Wish James sold the 600 gr Tuskers separatly also.

The 20g Slug hunter Handirifle is available at Bimart for $178.20...the cost for the barrel alone, fitting, S/H both ways is about $170 plus who knows how much time. I will get Bimart to order me one...at least I will have the 24" rifled barrel...and the extra pieces and parts, basically very cheap...even if I can't use the SB1 frame as I first thought.

I thought I was gonna cut a fat hog by using the SB1 frame and fit my 17 FB and 6mmBR stub barrels to it...but according to how I read NEF I can't fit a rifle barrel to a shotgun SB1 frame or at least THEY won't do anything but 357 and 44 mag.

I won't know for sure until I get the 20 Ga in my sweaty hands and see what the hoo-haw is. Those two cartridges won't put very much pressure on the frame and I don't load them all that high anyway.

If all the frames are alloy and heat treated now I don't understand the problem except from the lawyers point of view.

That extra SB2 frame will come in handy to fit a 10ga barrel, cut to 4", ream, thread and do your 585 HE short or long case stub barrel jobby...someday when I can afford a .585" barrel My todo list goes up and down like a Yo-Yo.

This project will be interesting.


Jack...my 50 BMG cases used for the 12GaFH have been drilled out to accept the 209 primer, to save money...check out the prices of 50 BMG primers. The 209 primer hole is ~.238" +/- a thou. Not much problem there with the low pressures in the "shotgun" type of case application.

You "could" do it with any case big enough to handle drilling that size of a hole in...BUT...and it is a big BUTT...when you go messing about with the higher pressures in a "normal" non-shotgun type cartridge case, the pressure acting on the 209 size primer will cause things to happen you DON'T want to happen. Not something I would do except as an experiment "just so see" Pressure is the reason the primer is smaller and for the tiny 0.060" - 0.080" flash hole.

I think your concern is justified as the maggots are eating up the USA and going after anything they can stop or cause a problem with. If they do get things stopped, there will be more to worry about than where to get bullet, powder, cases and primers...anyone that has ever bought a gun will be designated persona non grata and the black clothed, face covered maggots in uniforms will be knocking down your door in the middle of the night, just like in the movies...not to put too fine a point on it.

Luck

The only reason the won't do some exchanges is the
firing pin, just lawyer stuff.. But many guys
on Greybeards, which has quit a few NEF nuts,
fit them back and forth themselves.

The 209 primers in an open hole shotgun primer pocket
will hold max pressures we are using in MRC brass(35k psi) and
the super strong 8ga kiln cases, and regular cases like
600NE, 577NE, etc, to 40k psi. Which is higher than factory
loads in those cases. And easily holds medium loads in my 585
and 700s if I wanted to do it that way.
They have tested shotgun primers over 40k psi
in 1887 Win replicas and they held, and Zoli has tested
their Z-Sports shotguns with plastic cases to twice that,
and primers have held.Ed

I was guessing something like that was happening with the NEF. It didn't seem quite kosher that swapping couldn't be done considering the economic factor and the fact that I swapped a 17HMR barrel I rechambered to 17 FB onto a SB2 frame and only had to shim 0.005" plus my 45-120 BC barrel fit very well on the SB1 rimfire frame...just to check it out.

There's a good thread going on SB2 frame stress going on right now. Someone has pressure data for the SB2 frame appearantly but won't post it...VERY GOOD idea...you know how information can get taken out of context and totally scrambled.

I would really like to have some pressure testing gear...some of the loads I was testing in my 12GaFH were flattening the 209 like high pressure rifle loads flatten primers. Most of the lockups(stiff opening) happened using Rem Nitro 3" cases and 700gr plus loads with Blue Dot powder, some using AA 2 3/4".

Once the action was open the case popped right out. Some of the primers were wiped like they were extruded into the firing pin hole then the ridge was cut off on opening. After the first incident I could feel the shearing as I opened the action while the barrel lug was held in a vise. No problems like that with the BMG brass or any other 3" or 3.5" plastic cases.

Makes me wonder, tho", and good to know for sure that the primers will hold that high pressure. I'm wondering now if the lockup problem was something else...the cases were starting to show a bulge about 0.100" inside the rim edge at the higher pressures, so maybe part of it was a headspace issue with the case rim...the Rem Nitro cases were once fired and I didn't measure the rim thickness on every case brand.

Something else to contemplate and work on, but it's actually moot...the last loads and the ones I settled on produced just about all the slap I wanted...anything more and controlling the gun became the issue.

Thanks again

Luck

It is really a powder issue. When I tried to get
730 gr slugs to 1800 with Blue Dot,plastic cases,
same problems, only got 1500, but got it there easy with
4759 and 4227, and no flattened primers and
cases extracted easy.Using powders that get to peak
pressures much slower makes all the difference.
Even though they have nearly same pressure.
It is easy start that makes difference.
And it is same way with brass cases and rifle
primers.You can wear out brass with too fast
of powder at partial fill, where perfect slower one,
full load, will let cases last 3 times longer.ED

Powder burn rate, powder density, peak pressure and pressure "dwell" time are definitely key...a quick kick in the butt by a small shoe isn't as effective as a long slow push by a large, size 15 brogan...

While I have many years of experience in rifle and pistol cartridges, and that knowledge is very useful, I'm just beginning to work with large and very large cases. The largest cases I ever played with, until recently, was Rigby and Gibbs cases. That was 40 odd years ago, not my rifle, and I was just starting the learn process(ground pounder) from mentors.

90% of all the cartridges I do work with have the "optimum" loads, as far as accuracy, pressure/velocity go, between 85-100% load density, depending, and the rifle determines which powder in that specific burn rate it likes...barrel vibration, ammo and rifle "tuning" and all that good stuff having it's effects.

I have several loads using both those powders in different length cases and in slug weights from 500 to 1100 gr, that do very good jobs in my 12GaFH.

4759 and 4227(fastest of the two) worked very well with the 525 Lyman and 3" cases, 1850-1900fs, but those loads were developed in Rem 870 and 500 Mossy's and the recoil in those 7-7.5 lb, no muzzle brake shooters was brutal...I haven't tested either of those loads in my NEF USH.

750 gr ideally and 700-800 gr +/- a bit overall, seems to produce the "best" combinations of velocity/energy/recoil for my purposes with the 12GaFH...I hit the velocity squared wall around those weights...I'm hoping something in the 2000fs/600 gr slug weight will be optimum for my "620" HELLBOY EXPRESS.

Load Disk (and Powley computer) seems to pick only a few powders or only have specific bullet weights to work with in the data base...even when I input "custom" data for bullets or cases and many of the powders it comes up with are not all that well suited for the 50BMG case or 3.5"shotgun. All this has been covered well in the 12GaFH thread or other threads, but still applies to the 20ga case.

I bought 3 lbs of RL17 now that it is available locally, but I'm still a year in time and miles behind ya'll in load testing.

Plus my interest is in realistic gun weight and shootability in the field, not developing the hairiest, highest velo/energy load possible...230g of 50BMG plus 15gr of Blue Dot PLUS 1100 grains of slug is NOT what this fat boy envisions for a squirrel load even in a 10-15 lb shooter.

I'm looking forward to your, RIP's, Jack's and any others who might do the 615 HELLBOY EXPRESS's, input.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:
Kull's Old Town Station spring gun auction May 15 Lot# 696 Hastings & Hagn single shot in 20 gauge 3.5". For those who want more than a H&R.

Nice looking gun. FYI, It sold for $7250 + buyers premimum

That was the Hastings/Hagn 3.5" 20 Gauge Falling Block, that was featured in the October 2007 issue of
Shotgun Sports magazine, eh?
There was a picture of a happy hunter with dead bison killed by the Hagn "rifle" and Hastings ammo.

Well, that New Product introduction of July 2007 was such a success that Hastings has now gone out of business,
as of Dec. 2009, factory auctioned March 2010?



It is up to us to keep the 20 Gauge 3.5" alive.
Reborn as the 615 Nitro Express "Hellboy."
I would have been shooting one by now except for the rains of the last 3 weekends.
I am on higher ground than the Super-Billion-Dollar flooding in Nashville,
but too much rain lately ...

Lookee here what a bubba with some hand tools and oil can do all by himself, it's a start:



I am casting some slugs in Linotype and hoping they will be close to 900 grains and close to .620" for the oversize bore of the H&R.
Will go on to the tighter TC later,
and consider better engraving ...

The org Hasting business in Kansas is gone (read forced by the bank out of business). Hastings never had a factory. The maker of the slug barrels Verney-Carron, purchased the Hastings name and making plans on the reintroduction of the slug barrels for popular guns.
What will happen to the 3.5 20ga, good question. I have spoken to the original ammo maker of the Hastings brand slugs and they are willing to continue making the ammo if demand is sufficient.

______________________________________________________________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
The org Hasting business in Kansas is gone (read forced by the bank out of business). Hastings never had a factory. The maker of the slug barrels Verney-Carron, purchased the Hastings name and making plans on the reintroduction of the slug barrels for popular guns.
What will happen to the 3.5 20ga, good question. I have spoken to the original ammo maker of the Hastings brand slugs and they are willing to continue making the ammo if demand is sufficient.

An INTERESTING development Kebco...
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Ed, FooBar, RIP, Kebco - Thanks much!

All you guys help me A Lot to learn!

Our 'retreever' here, (mostly on African

Hunting forum) is coming to my place this

Sat. for me to receive a NE reloading lesson!
He's another real gentleman around here.

Would my 450/400 3.25" caliber fire correctly/safely if the
primer pocket was altered for the shotgun primer?

What about the 499 HE based on the 450 #2 brass necked

open to STRAIGHT walls and using .499 diameter bullet?

What about the Four Bore cartridge at 4 inches long and

over one inch diameter? What primer for it? Wait, I just

saw on 12 GFH thread Ed IS using SHOTGUN primers in 4

bore brass successfully! Did a bushing get installed into

the primer pocket that had existed already?

The cases you mention will work with shotgun
primers.My 499HE loads are designed for
25-30,000 psi in NEFs. Your 450-400 is a
35,000 psi use. The 4bore cases I'm using for
first testings are turned cases that Ken Owen had
made, that come with shotgun primers.ED

The 12GaFH cases I bought from RobGunBuilder were modified(drilled out) for use with the 209 primer. Some left the BMG cases as is for the BMG primer. There are pro's and con's with using either primer.

I wasn't about to pay the going rate...at that time...for CCI35 BMG primers at $135/100 IF you could FIND them...NONE of the CCI35 primers were available ANYWHERE I could get to or order from, except getting a few from Rob...so I opted for the 209 primer. The loads I use have no ignition problems with the 209 in the BMG cases OR the 2 3/4-3.5" plastic cases.

Now I see the CCI35 primers are about $50/100 and the CCI50 primers are $175/500, so times have changed.

Rob put in a brass bushing but it didn't work for me...it came out with the spent primer the first shot and was a bitch to put back in...so I turned out a slightly larger steel bushing(.375" OD) and roughed up both he bushing OD and the pocket ID, them put a little dab of epoxy on the bushing...so far the steel bushings have stayed put.

My thinking on modifying the 499 brass is to drill out a couple just to test and see what happens, but leave the rest as is. You have a good idea and it should be considered as a worst case scenario...you know the saying..."Chance favors the prepared mind". If there ever is a problem getting either size primer then you have a fall back plan...otherwise...if you live out in the boonies, 50 miles from town like I do, and your local suppliers suddenly stop supplying, you need to just stock up and the problem goes away.

How many rounds do you think you will shoot over the rest of your lifetime?? I'm gonna be dead a long time before my primer/powder/bullet/case stock is used up, for ALL my different shooters and I don't have all that large a stockpile...

Luck

Is there a Farquharson/Ruger #1 type rifle, but 40 - 50 percent heavier,

properly balanced, that would be right for this 3.5 inch 20 gauge to fire

a 900 grain solid from, under $5000.00?

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
The org Hasting business in Kansas is gone (read forced by the bank out of business). Hastings never had a factory.

\BULLSPIT -- NO ONE WAS EVER FORCED INTO Bankrupcy by the bank .. EVER.

That's blaiming the fork for being overweight

Bad business decisions, including "never had a factory" means that the "company" over borrowed and their loans were called BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T PAY THEM

Dang it, i hate reading this, but the CRAP of denial of bad action is 10X worse.

If you can't pay your bills, don't blaime the bank for requiring to be paid.

This is like blaiming a CUSTOMER for wanting delivery .. as it is exactly the same thing

rant off

I'm doing 20ga 3.5" in FBW, but it isn't
Farky/Ruger type. Just as good for the
way it is being setup.Ed

I am just a fan of the Farq lines/look.

Here is pic of the RMC 20ga 3.5" with Hastings 3.5"
and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr,
Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in case.

Second pic is like FBW Model L setup that will have
20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st
one is in my 585HE.ED

Anything new?

Jack,
Since I waited so long to get the brass, I have gotten piled up with other stuff,
both professional work/duty related and professional smallboy/hobby related.

The .615 Nitro Express Hellboy/20 Gauge 3.5 is not a top priority for me right now.
I'll get around to it later ... starting with casting some Linotype 900-grain slugs and hoping they come out close to .620" diameter.

All y'all have at it in the meantime!

I have decided to have a 3 1/2" 20 slug gun made as a long distance slug gun for deer. I already have a case of original Hastings ammo set aside. Also spoke to Rich at Slugs R Us and he has original slugs available for reloading. Although the thought of a gun firing 700-900gr bullets is intriguing I know I do not need it for deer and would prefer to keep the trajectory as flat as possible. I already have a 577 and I think if I had a need for a 600 I would probably just buy one. I do think the 3 1/2 brass case has a real oo ah factor that a plastic case can not duplicate. Has anyone tried to load the original slugs into the brass cases? The original plastic cases are roll crimped, will the brass case hold the sabot in place with only friction or will it need to be crimped? Any advice appreciated.

Yes the Hastings SPW locked on sabot
slug fits my brass real tight. No crimping
need. Also the 20ga Lightfields.Ed

Ed..Thank you. Have you had a chance to shoot the brass case with Hastings slug? Curious about accuracy when compared to the plastic roll crimped case.

Not yet I'm still have to do the gun.ED

MON-NEE makes the world go around, the world go around, the world go around....

And my world just to a screeching halt...I'm dead in the water for the next year or so.

All I can do is sit on the sidelines, watch, learn and wait.

Luck

One great thing about the RMC 20g3.5" case is that the MEC Supersizer in 20 gauge size is strong enough and sizes down enough to crimp the mouth of the case.
It will base size the plastic hulls
as well as "mouth size" the RMC cases.

The 12 Gauge MEC Supersizer just would not handle RMC 12Ga3.85" cases:
Had to use the 20ga MEC supersizer on the case mouth, and I broke the handle off one trying so hard to make it size the 12Ga mouth.
I ended up getting the Collet holder fixture RGB suggested for 12Ga mouth sizing with a mallet!
Also a die Rob made for sizing with a vise, then hammer the case out of the well lubricated die!

The lesser resistance of the 20Ga3.5" brass as well as a closer size match of base to mouth in the MEC 20Ga Supersizer just works.

Then there is the RMC hand tool loading kit for 20 Ga. It can be helpful.

Ed has some "Hollywood" 20Ga dies?
Are there any useful 20Ga dies offered now?
CH4D?

I know the RCBS Cowboy dies for 12Ga are crap-aluminum-bodied dies, good only for the paper-thin Magtech 2.5" Cowboy brass.

Talked to Lonnie at Hornady about making a couple of sets a few weeks ago - I just need to light a couple of them off and send them the brass.

Staying up to date.

I asked a friend come up with a cast bullet design that could be made in multiple weights from about 850-700 grains with a good wide meplat.

Does anyone have a chamber cast or reamer print that we can use?

Something like this:

That's a nice looking slug...

One of the mould sellers(can't remember which one) has an online bullet design program. I worked up a few I liked. The program was very easy to use.

Luck

20 gauge-- Fired factory 3.5" plastic cased Hastings 395 gr
locked on sabot slug in 20ga with 30 inch barrel and
got 1900 plus fps. Same sabot slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2500 fps. Case bases didn't
expand. Load of 150gr RE17 slow enough getting to
peak pressures is easy on cases. Dies work with
both case types.
Fired 490 gr full bore slug at 2400. Case above
the base expanded only .001". Cases are really great.Ed

Ed - what are you using for dies?

I've got some bullets cast, just need to load some of them up and go to the range.

So do you lthink a JC Higgins 583 bolt action 20 ga could be made to work?
It is 2.75 chamber now.
Frank