You can't sell them, but you can give them away!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
5 degree or custom 7 degree forcing cone?

5 degree

Figure I'll try it on the first barrel, then regrind the throat area or order another reamer with something a little more appropriate to the projectile once I get a dummy cartridge in hand.

The problem is as you know, that even with a 30KPSI nominal load, there will be pressure excursions well over 38KPSI. It doesnt take much either. I learned that the hard way with my Oehler strain guage. I'm no fan of turned cases even though they are fun to make.
I have to admit that I have talked to the LV BATFE field office and Washington DC and gotten a very similar response. I also asked for a statement in writing and so far have not received one. Without a letter from BATFE saying that its Ok to manufacture or sell any brass without having a valid 06 FFL. BTW the info you have to divulge to get a 06 is pretty intrusive too. Be careful of what you divulge on websites too these days.-Rob

An interesting option is a 9 degree forcing cone to have a shoulder like the 404 Jeffery shoulder and use Trex brass for up to 50K psi loads for a kind of smaller 12 gauge Jongman's

No need to make rims for it.

Start the forcing cone at 2"
Will be able to shoot shortie 20 gauge shells.

Should have about 20 thou shoulders.

Not a 20 GFH or Hellboy but a 600 bastard child of a she devil trex and Jeffery.

Call it the 600 Jeffery?

600 Fat Bastard?

20 gauge from a drunken night at a brothel in hell?

20 gauge Trex from hell?

20 gauge Tyrannosaur from hell?

I have slugged the 3 factory 20 Gauge barrels I have, at the muzzles:
Savage 220: .613"
TC Encore: .615"
H&R NEFer: .621"
I may be imprecise,
muzzles may tighten or flare with the different makers?
Seems that true 20Ga rifled grooves are supposed to be .615".
600 Nitro express is supposed to be .620"?




Above is a .616" 30:1 slug that was driven into the muzzle of the Savage 220 with a rubber mallet, then pushed out with a wooded dowel from the breech end.
8 grooves.
.613" groove.
Advertized 1:24" twist.
Magazine will hold 2 shots of 2.75" COL, folded/crimped 3" plastic hull size.
Could load a 3" brass hull into the chamber with a 7-degree FN nose sticking into the 5-degree forcing cone, for 3.5" COL,
single shot loading only, but it might have to be a little shorter to eject loaded round.






Above are 3 old 2.75" brass cases I picked up at a gunshow years ago.
Logo on headstamp is a BP rifle silouhette.
Could this be early RMC logo or some other maker?

Driving one of the slugs into the mouth of the brass case produces a bulged neck that will not chamber.
Those necks would have to be inside reamed for loading, due to the thickness of the necks.
Hopefully RMC brass will work better in the 3.5" chamber.
I asked Dave Casey to make 0.615" inside diameter for the case at mouth and SAAMI O.D.
He has specs that will work.

Could roll crimp the 950-grainers in 3" hi-brass plastic hull to 2.75" length for 3" chamber (Little or no filler wads needed, maybe just a gas seal?)
or 3.5" plastic case to 3.25" COL for 3.5" chamber.
Low velocity 950-grainers would provide quite a close range thumper. 800 to 1000 fps? 20 Ga Whisper?
4 times the smack of a .45 ACP or 45LC at close range?
Hi velocity 950-grainers at about 2000 fps with 3.5" brass?

RIP-Probably made them to match smaller diameter
slugs like fosters, that are always smaller
than listed diameter.

RMC will make cases for whatever slug diameter
you want no matter what length you want.
And the OD will be regular 20ga 3.5" size.
I'm having mine .620". You all know
I'm going with 3.5" cases, and now I have a big
box of Hastings 3.5" 20 ga sabot slug ammo coming,
I got from their sell out auction.Ed

What's the normal grain weight of a 20 Ga. deer slug?

Jack,
Traditionally only about 1/3 of the 950-grain slug.
This makes my 950-grainer another "Triple Foster" sort of slug.
O.K. I'll accept that, it's the "20Ga Triple-Foster-Darwin-Award Slug."

20Ga factory examples ...

Winchester: traditional Foster slug in a 20Ga 2-3/4" shell is 3/4-oz (328gr lead birdie) at 1600 fps MV.

Federal: Vital-Shok 20Ga 3" Barnes Expander-Tipped Sabot (.45-cal?) is 5/8-oz, about 273gr of bullet after sabot shed, at 1900 fps MV.
Pressure said to be 1050 BAR or 15,225 psi.

Hastings: 20Ga 3-1/2" shell with 410-grain projectile at 2000 fps, consisting of 60-grain plastic sabot (that does not discard until impact) plus 350 grains of soft lead.

And just to summarize approximate rifling of barrels I have:

TC Encore: .615" groove, 1:22" twist
Savage 220: .615" groove, 1:24" twist
H&R NEFer: .620" groove, 1:28" twist

At least that is what they were meant to be?
Maybe +/- .001" to .002" here and there, or it's my measuring at fault.
If "sumbuddy who know" different can correct this, please do.

Seems the NEFer has a 600 NE barrel.

So, if I wanted a TRUE 20 ga. slug to fire through a rifled barrel

which weighed the same as a typical 10 ga. deer slug, what

would THAT grain weight be? And what would be the right velocity

for that 20 ga. slug so that it had at least the same ft. pds. muzzle

energy as the 10 ga. slug?

Federal 10ga hollowbase slug is 765gr
I got others that are about 800gr.
Federal load is about 1500..Ed

Thanks Ed, good info! See, I had asked Gerard at www.gscustom.co.za in the past about

600 NE FN bullets from him. He said they usually do them at 750 grain weight because of

the typical 1:30 twist in 600 NE bbls. So they are really close to what Ed said Federal

10 Ga. slugs weigh in at. Gerard said to me he can make bullets at any diameter. He just

sets his machines to what he wants them to do and the groove depth can be custom sized

as well as the outer diameter. So based on RIP's post above about the bore sizes of Savage,

TC Encore and NEF a guy could get just what he wanted from GSC as an option to consider.

If this is still more than some one needs then lets look at the 12 ga. typical slug weight and

velocity. I'll guess it to be 600 Grain. What's the true weight?

A typical heavy 12ga slug is about 730gr.
Historical N American game style loads.
Typical heavy for 20 ga about 600
Good ones are the jacketed ones Henson makes
and he could get the dies for 20 ga if
enough orders I suppose. they are a buck fifty. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
A typical heavy 12ga slug is about 730gr.
Historical N American game style loads.
Typical heavy for 20 ga about 600
Good ones are the jacketed ones Henson makes
and he could get the dies for 20 ga if
enough orders I suppose. they are a buck fifty. Ed

So why did Hastings do the LIGHT 410 grain idea includ-
ing the 60 grn sabot in their 3.5" 20 ga. round?

600 grn 20 ga. at 1900 - 2300 FPS seems like it would be

an amazing round! Am I "missing" something? {I am NOT

talking about elephant & rhino, but certainly ANYTHING

in N. America!}

They are using fast shotgun powders and that won't get a
slug 50% heavier to their magic 2000 fps.
And they tout hi velocity as leading to longer range kills.
And most guys buying factory loads, leave their
light guns that way, so the factory using lighter
slugs don't have a customer group upset at them for
hard recoil.Even with a thick barrel the NEF and Encore
20 gauges are not very heavy.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
They are using fast shotgun powders and that won't get a
slug 50% heavier to their magic 2000 fps.
And they tout hi velocity as leading to longer range kills.
And most guys buying factory loads, leave their
light guns that way, so the factory using lighter
slugs don't have a customer group upset at them for
hard recoil.Even with a thick barrel the NEF and Encore
20 gauges are not very heavy.Ed

I think you're describing a MARKETING PLOY.

Ed, these companies will do anything for $$$.

BTT for BF Jack:
When I ordered the 20Ga3.5" RMC brass originally, I asked for ID of case mouth to be .615", that is the true 20-gauge smoothbore or groove diameter for rifled barrel.
Surely I could find a way to crimp it down if it comes out at .620".

Some of NEF barrels are about .620". I
have a few .620" lead slugs. The SPW
Hastings lock on base slugs will fit about
any size, .615-625". Ed

Thank you RIP! I think I'll tell Dave at RMC to do my 40 pieces at true 20 gauge .615".

Which PRIMER will this 20 Ga. 3.5" brass be using?

It is standard shotgun primer, 209 Magnum,
same for 20GaHB3.5" as used in the 12GaFH3.85" so effectively with the RL-17 powder.
No starter powder nor duplex loading needed.
But do not let that stop you from experimenting!
Ed will be along for advice as needed.

I would make sure any air space between powder and slug (if less than 100% load density used) is filled with gas seal, cards, or wads, etc.

JackPhantomHuckleberryHoundDog, RIP.

Thanks RIP.

Guess what showed up here today!

For size reference, the 358 BFG-WSSM, 454 Casull, 458 BFG-SOCOM Rimmed, 50 Action Express, and the 3.5" 20 Gauge - all DNR legal for Indiana whitetail.

I would love to see the expression on the Game Wardens face when he sees it.

Priceless

John

Sheesh!
I ordered it first, talked Dave Casey into making it, 20ga3.5" brass, almost 6 months ago.
I still have not received any, and there is no tracking available for the RMC-USPS mailing method.
Glad that someone besides me is getting it in the mail.

I shall endeavor to persevere ...

Replica of Old Betsy "Presented to David Crockett at Nashville, Tenn. May 5, 1822"

A 40-caliber/.395 roundball Squirrel&Bear Rifle!!!
JackPhantomHuckleberryHoundDog, RIP

Send me a PM with your address, I'll front you a box of mine until yours come in.

I got my 40 pieces today! I put the cal-
ipers to one; here are the numbers:

Length: 3.5015"
Rim Diam: 0.7480"
Base Diam: 0.6960"
I.D. Mouth: 0.6140"
O.D. Mouth: 0.6870"
Rim Thickness: 0.0510"
Wall Thickness: 0.0350"
Primer Hole Diam: 0.2365"

It's good lookin' stuff!

Thanks for the measures, Jack.

I chamfered one and beat a lubed 12Ga mandrel into the mouth of a 20ga Case,
then was easily able to tap a .616" diameter slug (940-grainer) into a case:
first 20Ga3.5" "Hellboy" dummy.





Also above, for perspective, some .458 B&M throat go-guages and feed dummies, ready to go to SSK.

I didn't get my "loading kit" from him - did anybody else?

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:
I didn't get my "loading kit" from him - did anybody else?

fireball168,
Got mine, the "20 Gauge Loading Kit--RMC" hand tools. Good to have. $50 charge for that.

RMC made up the packing slip dated 4-15-10.
Charged me on 4-21-10.
Shipped from Cody, WY on 4-28-10.
Arrived today.

If Dave charged you and didn't send it, you need to get on his "Casey."

I am thinking I need to anneal these case mouths to make it easier to size up from .614" to .616".

JackPhantomHuckleberryHoundDog, RIP

Didn't get charged for the loading kit, just wondering if anybody else received one.

Jack...do you have a H20 volume weight on those cases by any chance. I'm trying to decide on my next project...615 Hellboy Express, 585 HE, 600 OK or chuck it all and buy a pool table.

Thanx

Sorry I don't know how to do the water measure.

Easy as cake...

Weigh the case empty....fill it with water level with the top and weigh again...subtract empty weight from full weight.

That number gives you the weight in water...if you have a digital weight scale you can use the mode function to convert the number directly into grams, grains, oz.

I've also used balance scales in the "olden days", but the scales need to be able to handle 3000 grain or you have to weigh the empty case, weigh the powder pan, fill up the case, pour it into the powder pan and weight the pan/water, then subtract all with out dripping...

Most software programs like LD and QL use the number to calculate different loads.

I roughed out the number to 250 gr using LD and the custom case volume function and the numbers you provided already...(thanks again)... slightly more than a 600NE.

It'll be interesting to toss 1-2 oz loads from a 20 ga shotgun, even a heavy barreled NEF.

615 HELLBOY...aptly named.

Luck

Ones I have now hold 234gr water
and 215 gr of dense ball powder to
the base of a 490gr lead slug I have here.
Slugs are .620" and ID of case is .620" mouth.
This will get me in the 30" barrel
about 2500 at 25-27k psi.490gr, 6800 ft lbs.ED

Can some one explain why this gigantic case can use a shotgun

primer but the measurably smaller 600 NE and even my much smaller

450/400 3.25 in. case has recommended for it the Fed 215 large

mag rifle primer? If the shotgun primer can light the case full of pow-

der in the 3.5 in. 20 ga. why cant' it do EVERYTHING?

Shotgun primer is 15% stronger than
large rifle primer and can ignite all powders
in 20ga and 600NE diameter cases.
RMC only makes shotgun primer pockets in
shotgun cases. Guys making 600NE only
make rifle primer pockets.Just tradition.Ed

Thanks Ed.
I need to read up some more on primers and whatever "hot-bricity" factor they are rated by.
Who will be first to post some actual load data and chronograph results with
900-grainers
RL-17
RMC brass
and 209 Magnum primers?
I am not messing around with a lot of combos after surviving the 12GaFH ... gonna get it right, right off the bat.

That's just AWESOME

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Shotgun primer is 15% stronger than
large rifle primer and can ignite all powders
in 20ga and 600NE diameter cases.
RMC only makes shotgun primer pockets in
shotgun cases. Guys making 600NE only
make rifle primer pockets.Just tradition.Ed

As RIP expressed above, I'm thankful too Ed!

Kull's Old Town Station spring gun auction May 15 Lot# 696 Hastings & Hagn single shot in 20 gauge 3.5". For those who want more than a H&R.