Got it thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
LOL RIP, you guys are 'nearly' having as much fun with this thread as I did shooting that drum with my old lever action ; ]

Hi Jerry,

Yes we are, thank you very much !
Excellent bit of work there by you, much appreciated by all.

At sharpsguy's comment on the handgun for elephant, in the Rifle #204 (Nov-Dec 2002)
Ross Seyfried did a roll-out of the SAAMI .458 Lott. He said:

"... Selous killed many elephants and buffalo with his .461 Gibbs Metford rifle.
This used a 540- or 570-grain, slightly hardened, lead bullet with about 1250 fps velocity.
These would penetrate completely through most buffalo and to the far side of elephant.
The .475 revolver will exit both shoulders of a buffalo and has been known to make the frontal brain shots, penetrating into the neck, on big bull elephant.
This with 430-grain bullets and 1300 fps velocity."

The .458/480-gr hardcast FN at 1300 fps ought to be a better penetrator than that .475 Linebaugh revolver.

Would love to find the original stories about this handgun hunting of elephants.
IIRC, member ALF's Pop killed a problem elephant with a .44 Remington Magnum handgun.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

1986: .500 Linebaugh started with old production .348 WCF brass supply dwindling
1986: .475 Linebaugh born by necessity of alternative, readily available .45-70 brass
1987: .500 Linebaugh reborn with new production of .348 WCF brass ...

https://www.thefreelibrary.com...inebaugh.-a061620856

"In 1986 and 1987, Wyoming based gunsmith John Linebaugh introduced two very powerful big bore revolver cartridges, the .500 and .475 Linebaugh. Soon hunters began raking them afield and discovered that they were capable of cleanly harvesting the largest game animals on earth.

"The .500 is based on the .348 Winchester case shortened to 1.4 inches and is capable of driving a 450-grain bullet at 1,300 feet per second. The .475 is based on the 45-70 Government case shortened to 1.4 inches and drives a 420-grain bullet at 1,350 fps, or a 380-grain bullet at 1,500 fps. Both cartridges have continued to develop impressive records on large and very dangerous game, including elephant, rhino, Cape buffalo and brown bear. The .475 offers deeper penetration, possibly making it the better choice for really large game, while the big .500 opens a larger wound channel and delivers tremendous shock. ...

"... Otto Candies Jr. has harvested many head of large game with his custom Linebaugh revolvers. In one instance, a huge, crop-destroying bull elephant was taken with one shot to the head at 60 yards. A frontal shot was the only one presented, and the .475 drove a 400-grain Trophy Bonded Solid bullet completely through the skull and deep into the neck, 46 inches from its entry! This is an incredible feat from a handgun-it performed like a big-bore rifle, penetrating through thick skin and heavy bones. In another instance, a large brown bear was shot in the "britches" with a .500 Linebaugh. The 440-grain bullet traveled stem to stem."

(Maybe this one?)

"Otto Candies of Louisiana was guided by Don Anderson near the head of Bear Lake located on the Alaskan Peninsula. This bear is one of many guided by Don over the years from Bear Lake Lodge. Otto took this magnificent Alaskan Brown Bear while hunting the Alaskan Peninsula in a Spring Brown Bear season. This bear squared better then 10 feet. Hunts are offered exclusively through Anderson Taxidermy & Guide Service, Inc. Contact Don Anderson to inquire about booking your hunt for the new year ahead." www.thehuntpro.com

Otto Candies, Jr. and others also mentioned here:

http://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech...listics/methods.html

"Field results corroborate the ballistic testing. Ross Seyfried has gotten almost five feet of penetration with the .475 Linebaugh using a modified Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid weighing 385 grs at 1500 fps muzzle velocity on an Asian buffalo in Australia, in spite of breaking both the hip and a shoulder! (Ross Seyfried, ".475 Revolver Down Under", Guns & Ammo, Petersen Publishing, Inc., December, 1989, pp. 48 - 53, 96) In testing this bullet outpenetrated the lead alloy LBT bullets by 20 %. Using a similar modified solid weighing 400 grs, Otto Candies, Jr. completely penetrated the skull of an elephant on a frontal brain shot, the bullet coming to rest at a depth of 40 inches in the neck. (Jim Gosnell, "Legendary Linebaugh Big-Bores", High-Power Handguns, Petersen Publishing, Inc., 1995, pp. 34 - 39) J. D. Jones, noted handgun hunter and entrepreneur (S.S.K. Industries), reports getting "over seven feet" of penetration with 500 gr. solids from a 45-70 handcannon (SSK product literature).

"Reported Penetration Data for Hard Cast Flat-Nosed Handgun and Rifle Bullets ..."

(Table follows at link above.)

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

So, the .461 Gibbs No. 1 probably pushed a 540-grainer to 1250 fps with 80 grains of BP,
and the .461 Gibbs No. 2 delivered a 570-grainer at 1250 fps with 90 grains of BP.
(Curtis & Harvey #6)

I have it from sharpsguy that the 360-grain express bullet ahead of 100-grains of BP would fit into the .461 Gibbs scheme above at right on 1600 fps.

The Sharps "Forty-Fives" of the bison hunters and the Gibbs "Four-Fifty Bores" of Selous all did the same,
for same bullet weights and same BP charges in different cases.

A really neat thing about a heavy bullet at 1250 fps
and a light bullet at 1600 fps is that they can both use the same sight setting at 100 yards.

If one is technically challenged and must stick with hardcast and smokeless instead of paper-patched with BP,
I bet one could still come up with a load for some heavy bullet at about 1250 to 1300 fps
and a light bullet at about 1600 fps
so that both use same sight setting
to hit dead-on at 100 yards.

That is a mighty handy thing.
George Gibbs the younger had it all figured out.
Maybe Quigley too.

Maybe even a 500-ish-grain FN of jacketed or copper/brass monometal at 1300 fps could be matched with a 300-ish-grainer at higher velocity
so that both shoot to same POI at 100 yards,
with same sight setting.

The slower, heavier bullet has greater barrel time and gets thrown higher at exit by barrel rise in recoil.
The lighter faster bullet is thrown lower but drops less on the way to the target.
So both hit same spot at 100 yards.

I am sure Jerry and sharpsguy could elaborate on this and what happens down range, after 100 yards.
Long range sighting for the two different bullets would get more complicated.

They might even have recipes for such pairs of heavy and slow with fast and light bullets that "regulate" at 100 yards.
Different kind of regulation than double rifle regulation.
Double bullet regulation.

Greater recoil with BP, so a smokeless double bullet regulation might be quite different from that with BP.
Not as simple as same velocities and bullet weights for smokeless as for BP.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

I am itching to get a slow 543-grain-Big-FN and a faster 407-grain-Little-FN to shoot to double-bullet regulation with smokeless,
in the .45-2.6"-Sharps Winchester Throated.
Same should work in the .458 WIN(-)P at 0.1" shorter COL.
Wondering how slow I can go with the 543-grainer in a 1:20" twist, 1:18" twist, or 1:14" twist.
Subsonic ?
I also have a custom-long-throated .458 B&M with 1:10" twist that could serve for experimental work.
I rather hope the 1:14" will do it all.

I also have .45-70 Govt. rifles with 1:20" and 1:18" twist,
if the .458 WIN is too big and powerful.

I hear that those big, slow hardcast FN bullets at 900 fps pass through bison like they were swiss cheese.
The old bison hunters shot some long range bison with bullets that started off barely above the speed of sound.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Loving all the Cast discussion! There is a small cadre of folks who have been putting Good hard cast and 19 bhn is reallyt hard cast in my book, all the way through things at low velocity for many years. 12-14 BHN is hard enough too on Good heavy bullets and slower speeds. Cast on Boys!!

A 543 grain 45 caliber bullet will stabilize in a 1-20 twist barrel at 1100 fps. BTDT.

I hunted for years with bullets cast from clip on wheel weights, air cooled, with perfect success, then I started to shoot competition, and my ammunition got more sophisticated and I discovered 20-1 and 30-1 alloy. I started to hunt with the same alloy I was competing with, and found the softer alloy continued to give complete pass through penetration, even on bison. In fact, a friend of mine shot a 3 year old bison bull in the chest with his 45 caliber Sharps, and we recovered the bullet from the animals pelvis after 72 1/2 measured inches of penetration with a 30-1 alloy bullet.

I shot 30-1 alloy on my first two trips to Africa out of my 45-110, and never recovered a bullet. The third trip, I shot a 50/50 mixture of wheel weights and lead using my Sharps 45-70 and recovered one bullet. 12-14 BHN is hard enough for 95% of your applications, and I would not feel that I needed 19 BHN unless elephant, hippo, or cape buffalo was on the agenda.

quote:

I hunted for years with bullets cast from clip on wheel weights, air cooled, with perfect success, then I started to shoot competition, and my ammunition got more sophisticated and I discovered 20-1 and 30-1 alloy. I started to hunt with the same alloy I was competing with, and found the softer alloy continued to give complete pass through penetration, even on bison. In fact, a friend of mine shot a 3 year old bison bull in the chest with his 45 caliber Sharps, and we recovered the bullet from the animals pelvis after 72 1/2 measured inches of penetration with a 30-1 alloy bullet.

One question, did you get any expansion with bullets of that hardness (or in your example softness)? Assuming you recovered any of course. If you did, do you think some expansion makes any difference?

In 30 years of hunting with a Sharps rifle in five different calibers, I have only recovered three bullets. Each of these bullets had hit a large bone mass at an angle, and were seriously distorted and not what I would call a classic mushroom.

Expansion only serves to distort the nose shape and inhibit penetration. A flat nosed bullet generates a wide wound channel without mushrooming. The blunt round nose of the classic Government bullet gives straight line penetration and a generous wound channel with the 40 and 45 caliber bullets I shoot, and with these bullets, mushrooming is not wanted or needed. I am looking for straight line pass through penetration in front of the diaphragm to collapse the lings due to an air leak through the chest cavity. The hard cast flat nose design delivers this, as does the round nosed Govt. bullet with its blunt nose.

Frankly, a 500 grain Govt. bullet at 30-1 doesn't really expand in an animal very much due to its sectional density.

The classic definition of a fact includes testing to provide proof. Done Sir!! Sure have enjoyed your sharing Mr. Sharps!

You bet RIP and sharpsguy, Selous was so successful with Black Powder and simple cast bullets he got a part of Africa named after himself ; ]
The first time I shot that 55 gallon drum filled with water I hit it at 38 yards with my Sharps 45-3 1/4, it fires a 500 grain Govenrment bullet at 1488 fps, it bulged the drum lid and botton so hard on entry it nearly burst, then, upon exit, it sucked the sides of the steel drum inward to near collapse, NO animal could survive a hit like that.

Amen Brother Jerry !
It all came together for the Americans in that Sharps 1874 and for the British in the more refined and elegant .461 Gibbs-Metford-Farquharson of a few years later
and a few pounds lighter in weight!

Paper-patched bullet and BP: Self cleaning, no lubes, no pesky powder compression.
Accurate from first shot to fiftieth shot with no cleaning or wiping.
Here is a 1000-yard target shot by George Gibbs The Younger in 1886:



And here is an 1882 catalog showing that the .461 Gibbs No. 1 was the LongCOL ancestor of the .458 WIN+P,
and the .461 Gibbs No. 2 was thought of as the better "Express" rifle,
better only with the light bullets, like the .458 Lott:
Similar conniption fits with brass occurred in the various Sharps cartridges too.





The British and Americans just kept leap-frogging each other until the final perfection of the concept in the .458 Winchester Magnum by the Americans.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
A 543 grain 45 caliber bullet will stabilize in a 1-20 twist barrel at 1100 fps. BTDT.
And sharpsguy Got The T-Shirt also (BTDT-GTTS).

I hunted for years with bullets cast from clip on wheel weights, air cooled, with perfect success, then I started to shoot competition, and my ammunition got more sophisticated and I discovered 20-1 and 30-1 alloy. I started to hunt with the same alloy I was competing with, and found the softer alloy continued to give complete pass through penetration, even on bison. In fact, a friend of mine shot a 3 year old bison bull in the chest with his 45 caliber Sharps, and we recovered the bullet from the animals pelvis after 72 1/2 measured inches of penetration with a 30-1 alloy bullet.

I shot 30-1 alloy on my first two trips to Africa out of my 45-110, and never recovered a bullet. The third trip, I shot a 50/50 mixture of wheel weights and lead using my Sharps 45-70 and recovered one bullet. 12-14 BHN is hard enough for 95% of your applications, and I would not feel that I needed 19 BHN unless elephant, hippo, or cape buffalo was on the agenda.

Ross Seyfried opined that the original Metford alloy used for paper-patched bullets was about like ye olde clip-on wheel weights, in density and hardness.

He said that alloy as soft as 40:1 lead-tin or as hard as 20:1 lead-tin worked fine in the .461 Gibbs No. 2 that he slew the cape buffalo with on that Botswana
episode of "Under Wild Skies."
He used a 20:1 alloy, paper-patched 570-grainer at about 1250 fps, Red Rooster lube on the paper patched slick bullet,
no lube otherwise.
Huge cape buffalo was hit in left shoulder at 65 yards,
bullet was found under hide on off side.
If it had been an FN instead of one of those semi-pointy target bullets ...
But I swan ! I think Ross must have flattened the noses of his bullets in pushing them through a sizer:


Back in the day, lots of the target bullets were swaged from factory or hand-finish-swaged with handtools by handloaders, IIRC.













.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Here is another reference on the sights of Ross Seyfried's
double-bullet-regulated "Selous Rifle": RIFLE #201, May-June 2002, pp. 36-42.

Both bullets hit dead-on at 100 yards with same sight setting, fixed standing leaf.
Various folding leaves and ladder graduation for each bullet take over for longer ranges,
out to 500 yards for the light bullet,
800 yards for the heavy bullet.






.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

I read that article. Great story and great writing. I have a deep respect for Ross despite his squinting askance at the .458WM. Every man is allowed a mistake or two.

Yep, Ross only got two things wrong in his professional gunwriter career.

1. He recommended that Hornady and Ruger should choose the .450/.400 Nitro Express Magnum 3.25" for factory production,
instead of the first-ever Nitro Express cartridge, the .400 S. Jeffery of 1897, later known as the .450/.400 Nitro Express 3".

2. He "denied" the .458 Winchester Magnum before the cock crowed three times.

Nevertheless, he is the Muhammad Ali of the latest four decades of gunwriters.

DOUBLE GUN & Single Shot JOURNAL is a great publication.
Here is the excerpt for review purposes from the Summer 2004 Edition.
It happens to contain some of Ross Seyfried's best work on pages 75-88,
which must be viewed in full context to be fully appreciated:
























.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Weeeeelllll DOGGIES !
I have the 1995 GUNS & AMMO pub HIGH-POWER HANDGUNS in my powder-fouled hands.
There was something called the ".458 Linebaugh" also.
A teaser.

For now:
Jim Gosnell's article "Legendary Linebaugh Big-Bores" has a more reliable statement on the Otto Candies, Jr. elephant, but no elephant picture:

"On an unrelated hunt, Otto Candies, Jr. shot an elephant with a .475 Linebaugh.
The bullet was a modified Jack Carter Sledgehammer that had been cut down to a weight of 400 grains.
At a very close range of 15 yards, Otto hit his bull 'right between the headlights.'
The bullet penetrated the heavy bone in the front of the head, went on through the brain and into the neck.
Penetration measured 40 inches!"

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Seyfred has a way of making the old rifles come alive. More importantly, he convinces them to give up their secrets.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
https://cuttingedgebullets.com...ver-gun-safari-solid

325 and 400 grain solids for lever actions

Where does one find load data for these?

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
Seyfred has a way of making the old rifles come alive. More importantly, he convinces them to give up their secrets.

Yep, in most masterfully ways.

The Jim Gosnell article did report this on Ross Seyfried:

"Ross Seyfried shot an Australian buffalo with a .475 Linebaugh.
He hit the animal in the rear hip with a cast 430-grain bullet traveling approximately 1,380 fps.
The bullet penetrated six feet into the buffalo and came to rest in the neck.
Along the way that bullet broke the rear hip and the front shoulder."

Seems to me that "right" and "left" would have been better than "rear" and "front" in describing the hip and shoulder locations relative to the body of the buffalo !

Anywho, Gosnell mentioned only this about the .458 Linebaugh in the 1995-published article:
"... a new caliber of his (John Linebaugh's) design based on the .45-70 case."
There is a tiny black&white image of an ornate pair of Linebaugh custom Ruger Bisleys captioned as .458 Linebaugh and .475 Linebaugh. That is all.

Another gem in the article was Gosnell's wet phone book testing of penetration depth:

.375 H&H Hornady 300-gr FMJ/solid at 2,550 fps: 40 inches
.500 Linebaugh 420-gr LBT/cast at 1,205 fps: 41 inches
.475 Linebaugh 420-gr LBT/cast at 1,378 fps: 47 inches

"Again, this was in fresh phone books."
(new batch for each shot, soaked overnight with water)
"Even though there was no expansion of the lead bullet, there was an impressive channel left in the wet phone books.
I repeated this test several times to verify the results."

And Jerry's "vaccination load" load with the BPCR .45-70, 492-gr FN/cast at about 1300 fps, might do even better than the .475 Linebaugh.
That means better than a .375 H&H.
The .45-70 BPCR lever action is a buffalo and elephant rifle !

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Call the company. They should be able to help you out.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevastopol:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
https://cuttingedgebullets.com...ver-gun-safari-solid

325 and 400 grain solids for lever actions

Where does one find load data for these?

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:
The 400gr Speer did well!

My first bear was shot in 1989 using the 400gr Speer at 1865 fps. Range was 100 yards with impact velocity about 1535 fps/2093 ft-lbs. The rifle was an 1895 Marlin with a 22" Micro-groove barrel.

The big bruin raised up on hind legs and went over backwards landing on all fours, took off like a rocket and piled up in some alders 10 yards away. He was on his back with all four paws pointed heavenward flailing away. I stood on the moose-hunting platform and gave him another between neck and shoulder. He was finished, and would have been anyway without the second shot. The first 400 Speer took him broadside just behind the right shoulder midway up. It didn't penetrate very far but left a massive wound you could stick three or four fingers in. His right side was saturated with blood from shoulder to rump. That bullet was lost in field dressing in darkness. The second was retrieved in skinning... It was just under the skin in the offside arm pit. It penetrated about 13 - 14 inches and retained 90.5% of unfired weight. One side of the "mushroom" was sheared off. Pics are at times on my website/blogs.

My impressions of that bullet: It was accurate but I'd not use it again on bears as it's too soft and doesn't penetrate adequately in my limited experience. I've never used it since in serious hunting.

Speer now calls it a "Target bullet"! Their "hunting bullet" is the 350gr, which I've also used on bear from a .458 Win Mag (reduced load to 2345 fps) and it will give full penetration on just about anything. The bear in question was walking into the woods at 70 yards directly away. I shot it in the liver and it took out about 8" of spine and the back of the head, continuing on it's way into the unknown!

Another bullet, superior to the Speer, is the one I'm now loading for my Ruger Tropical #1 in .458 Win Mag at 2085 fps. I've killed bear with that one also at around that same MV from my 22" Marlin in .45-70. Range was 100 yards at my prime bait site. It too was a going away shot that hit the flank on the left side and made exit just aft of the right shoulder. It was a DRT. That bear didn't move 1-inch from where it was shot. I still have a bunch of those bullets. Unfortunately, I don't think Remington makes, or sells, that 405gr anymore. It's much tougher than the 400gr Speer and took that bear out at an impact speed of around 1835 fps/3028 ft-lbs.

I've owned three 1895 Classic Marlins with the 22" barrel, and one of the 18.5" GGs with the infamous ports! Never again!

But I consider the Marlin in .45-70 very, very capable for anything on this continent when loaded appropriately. I loaded mine after that initial 1895 -- which was loaded to around 30, 000 cup -- up to 40,000 cup and never ever had any concerns or problems. The downside is finding bullets that will match its potential -- especially here in Canada.

A cast bullet that I used on a 6' bear (nose to tail) from a NEF single-shot at 70 yards -- again a DRT -- was a 465gr hardcast that shot MOA or better from both the NEF and Marlin at 1900 fps/3727 ft-lbs. I push them relatively fast because I have to use a scope and don't want to hold over.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

If you will load the 480 grain Lyman 457121 cast of water cooled wheel weights over 38.5 grains of 3031 it will give you a bit over 1300fps. It will out penetrate a 400 grain Punch bullet at 1800 fps and do it without a lot of recoil. It is a mild recoiling load that is entirely capable of taking elephant and Cape Buffalo. The same load with air cooled wheel weights will shoot through the biggest bear on the planet from any angle. Try it. I guarantee you will like it and it will cycle through your Marlin like it is greased.

I enjoy your blog, BTW.

Sharps Guy.
You said "It will out penetrate a 400 grain Punch bullet at 1800 fps and do it without a lot of recoil."

Sounds good, as the Punch does have a reputation for punching through things!
Prepping for our African bullet testing event, we used a friends farm with a rifle range to test fire loads and practice for the event.
One such 45-70 load was a 430 grain Punch bullet at around 2000 fps and from 50 yards, it shot through a 5/8 inch steel hanging plate! That load also shot through an ele head and back into the body. Just last night, I found several such 45-70 and 45-90 loads left over from the PAC hunt.

The higher velocities do create more recoil, but it was manageable from the 1886 .45-70 and 45-90 rifles we used.


I later shot a Texas bison through the shoulders with our fave Cape Buff load - A 450 GRAIN KODIAK fmj at 2150 fps and the rifle just recoiled up as the bison went down with both shoulders broken; bullet kept going.

I have nothing against cast bullets, but have little experience hunting with them and am accustomed to flat shooting rifles.

Take your pick.
More than one way to skin a cat.
I am looking to double-bullet regulate my single barrel .45-70 with a heavy and slow cast bullet
and a light and fast bullet shooting close to same POI with same POA.
Heck, even the double-rifle guys like to use the "75% Rule" or some such to get a light load shooting close to their regulation load.
A smokeless .45-70 heavy hardcast load like sharpsguy has detailed is a good start.

Check out page 209 of the "458 winchester magnum" thread for preliminary work on a double-bullet regulation with smokeless and cast bullets.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/4821083332/p/209

407-grainer accurate at 2170 fps (0.180" diameter FN meplat on a .461" diameter bullet, ~39%).

.461"/ 543-grainer has a meplat diameter of about 0.270", ~59%.

Hoping to start around 1200 fps with the heavy one.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Some people are schtuck on the .45-70 BPCR.
I am schtuck on the .458 WIN, and want to mimic the .45-70 BPCR performance with the .458 WIN.
A start at that will be working my way down from .45-100 Sharps Straight.

The Hornady .458 WIN case is only 2 grains of water smaller than the Starline .45-2.6" case.
The Blackhorn 209 data for the .45-100 Sharps Straight should be good in the .458 WIN.

The Blackhorn 209 BPCR data, Federal F-215 recommended for all of these loads with Blackhorn 209,
and use of filler where needed noted in footnotes:




Blackhorn 209 in a muzzleloader:


I forsee a shootoff between Blackhorn 209 and AA-2495 with .461"/ 543-gr FN hardcast, starting at 43.0 grains with each powder.
Might be close to 1300 fps.
If so, it will be a real elephant & buffalo load, in the .458 WIN(-)P, at 3.340" COL.
Ought to penetrate at least as well as the .458"/450-gr brass FN at 2400 fps in the .458 WIN+P.
Take your pick for elephant.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Jerry has been at it again. Another vaccination load.
He will have to explain, images numbered for his reference:
EDIT: Corrected order of images follow after Jerry's description below.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Hello RIP, many thanks for posting the pics of this quick and fun little experiment.

I had been reading this thread after speaking with sharpsguy and found it very interesting, knew I had a big 45 cal KAL mould that threw a bullet eerily similar to Mr. Seyfrieds in this thread, hurried on down to machine shop buddies, had him remove the bump from the adjustable mould pin that allows casting a cup base bullet, also had him machine it down so I could have a full 1.450 inch long bullet, I was after weight, and knew my Shiloh 45-70 would easily stabilize with it's 18 twist barrel.

1] Are the just cast 461 grain 1.450" long bullets drying in a skillet last night before bed, I have ten thumbs and am forced to wet patch bullets, paper patching is surely womans work.

2] Are the rooster jacket lube bullets dry as a bone on wax paper this morning, they dried fine overnight.

3] Pic 3 should actually be pic 6 and show 5 loaded rounds after chronographing, and velocity goal was reached, I most likely sent them out of order, it shows the 5 rounds fired and five more for the bench, there was no wiping or blow tubing thus far, firing dirty all the way.

4] About to begin chronographing.

5] 70 grains of Old Eynsford 3FG sent the 561gr bullet to 1226 fps.

6] I was using fired Starline cases that had only had a range tool used to punch the old primer out and scrape the pocket clean, NO full length resizing of the brass, shot and used it like Selous and/or Seyfried may have done in camp, that said, I had plenty of room to drop tube 77 grains of Old Eynsford 3FG into the case, 1269 fps, PERFECT!

7] At the bench about to place the box at 200 yards, only brought rifle, ammo, box, tape, front rest and blow tube [in case I needed it] I did not.

8] Five shots in four inches at 200 yards shooting dirty with absolutely no lube in the cases, no wipe, no blow tube, [CRAZY] the last load went in as easy as the first.

9] Out of focus, but somehow a wet lube star accumulated on the rifles crown, that one is throwing me for a loop also.

Fired, unsized Starline 45-70 cases
561 gr paper patch bullet, rooster jacket lubed
77gr Old Eynsford 3FG drop tubed
CCI-LR primer
Four 30 thou Walters Wads compressed on powder for 250 thou of bullet in the case, for a total of 370 thou compression, easy as can be.

The alloy I had in the pot was hard, somewhere between 12 and 16 to 1, with a true 16 or 20 to 1 alloy the 570 grains can be met, it may be a more accurate alloy as well.

These bullets lose around 80 fps per hundred yards, this leaving at 1269 fps were precisely going sub-sonic at 200 yards, that has a negative effect on accuracy, maybe sharpsguy can explain this action, that said, i'll take 4 inches at 200 yards any day with naked eye, iron sights, and holding rifle with back of hand braced on a rest and against shoulder, no rear bag, that is a pile of dead elk, moose, deer, and buffalo.

What a fun little thrown together project.

OK, I screwed up the order, so here is another stab at it, with Jerry's 'splainin' edited in for convenience:

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Hello RIP, many thanks for posting the pics of this quick and fun little experiment.

I had been reading this thread after speaking with sharpsguy and found it very interesting, knew I had a big 45 cal KAL mould that threw a bullet eerily similar to Mr. Seyfrieds in this thread, hurried on down to machine shop buddies, has him remove the bump from the adjustable mould pin that allows casting a cup base bullet, also had him machine it down so I could have a full 1.450 inch long bullet, I was after weight, and knew my Shiloh 45-70 would easily stabilize with it 18 twist barrel.

quote:

1] Are the just cast 561-grain 1.450"-long bullets drying in a skillet last night before bed, I have ten thumbs and am forced to wet patch bullets, paper patching is surely woman's work.

quote:

2] Are the rooster jacket lube bullets dry as a bone on wax paper this morning, they dried fine overnight.

quote:

3] About to begin chronographing.

quote:

4] 70 grains of Olde Eynsford sent the 561-gr bullet to 1226 fps.

quote:

5] I was using fired Starline cases that had only had a range tool used to punch the old primer out and scrap the pocket clean, NO full length resizing of the brass, shot and used it like Selous and/or Seyfried mau have done in camp, that said, I have plenty of room to drop tube 77 grains of Old Eynsford 3FG into the case, 1269 fps, PERFECT!

quote:

6] ... 5 loaded rounds after chronographing, and velocity goal was reached ... it shows the 5 rounds fired and five more for the bench, there was no wiping or blow tubing thus far, firing dirty all the way.

quote:

7] At the bench about to place the box at 200 yards, only brought rifle, ammo, box, tape, front rest and blow tube [in case I needed it] I did not.

quote:

8] Five shots in four inches at 200 yards shooting dirty with absolutely no lube in the cases, no wipe, no blow tube, [CRAZY] the last load went in as easy as the first.

quote:

9] Out of focus, but somehow a wet lube star accumulated on the rifles crown, that one is throwing me for a loop also.

quote:

Fired, unsized Starline 45-70 cases
561 gr paper patch bullet, rooster jacket lubed
77gr Old Eynsford 3FG drop tubed
CCI-LR primer
Four 30 thou Walters Wads compressed on powder for 250 thou of bullet in the case, for a total of 370 thou compression, easy as can be.

The alloy I had in the pot was hard, somewhere between 12 and 16 to 1, with a true 16 or 20 to 1 alloy the 570 grains can be met, it may be a more accurate alloy as well.

These bullets loose around 80 fps per hundred yards, this leaving at 1269 fps, it was precisely going sub-sonic at 200 yards, that has a negative effect on accuracy, maybe sharpsguy can explain this action, that said, i'll take 4 inches at 200 yards any day with naked eye, iron sights, and holding rifle with back of hand braced on a rest and against shoulder, no rear bag, that is a pile of dead elk, moose, deer, and buffalo.

What a fun little thrown together project.

Jerry,

That is OUTSTANDING !

Is that the dried Rooster paper-patch lube at the muzzle, somehow causing a "lube star" ?

What diameter were the slicks before patching ?
What diameter were the paper-patched bullets ?
What are your bore and groove diameters of barrel ?

Should pass through a buffalo like a knife through warm butter.

Thanks.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Jerry's Selous Load:
Recoil in a 10-pound rifle: 36.6 ft-lbs, 15.35 fps
If BC = 0.450
and MV = 1274 fps
5-yards: 1269 fps (5 fps loss in first 5 yards)
100 yards: 1177 fps (97 fps loss in first 100 yards)
200 yards: 1101 fps (76 fps loss in second 100 yards)
166 yards: Mach 1, 1125 fps

BC must be higher than 0.450.

Naked slick of 561 grains weight has SD very close to 0.400.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Good morning RIP, thanks for the edit and reprint, after all, I'm the dummy that hasn't learned to post pics ; ]

Yes, moisture/steam is one of the components of black powder combustion, somehow that has also combined/rehydrated the Rooster Jacket lube to leave a "moist" lube star on the muzzle, you can wipe with a thumb, then smear between thumb and index finger, crazy voodoo going on there Sir.

Kal mould throws bullet at .441

Patches up to .447 with 8lb onion paper

Rooster Jacket adds no measurable increase in diameter

Bore and groove on my Shiloh 45-70 runs .450 and .458

LOL, thanks for the load workup too, this little '74 Shiloh weighs 9.5 lbs and is a pleasure to carry and hunt with, I have never loaded it to this level of power with such a heavy bullet, it does kick a bit, if it continues to behave this way, i'll have to rename it, 'Weak Sister' doesn't seem to apply anymore ; ]

BTW, the .461 Gibbs NO 1, and .461 Gibbs NO 2, look an awful lot like the 44-77 and 44-90 Sharps bottleneck cartridges, a lot of similarities going on between the two country's back in the day figuring out how to make these rifles work and shoot accurately.

Also, has anyone noticed how clean the bore is after 10 rounds fired in pic number 9? no funny stuff here, no duplexing or wiping, crazy stuff, have never seen anything like this.

Well, OK then,
9.5 pounds rifle weight and recoil goes up a smidgeon.
Cast it in 20:1 and call it 570-gr ~ 1.450" BOL.
At 1270 fps MV free recoil: 39.40 ft-lbs @ 16.33 fps

BC = .500 seems to be a better match to Jerry's observations.
At the muzzle: 1274 fps
5 yards: 1269 fps
100 yards: 1186 fps
185 yards: 1125 fps (Mach 1 at 68*F)
200 yards: 1115 fps (might be Mach 1 in Texas heat)

Averages 79.5 fps loss per 100 yards for the first 200 yards.
Right on with Jerry's observations.
BC = 0.500

Static sectional density of a .441" slick weighing 561 grains = 0.412, sitting in the drying pan.

Make it 570-grains and bump it up to about .458" diameter flying through the air sans patch,
like the Gibbs bullet:
SD = 0.388

Seyfried said his Gibbs-Metford-Farquharson bore diameter was .461" and groove diameter .472".
The chamber neck was tight and the biggest diameter of patched bullet that could be seated in the brass to allow loading rifle was 0.461" to 0.462".
So Seyfried's slick bullet diameter would be about .455" for a .461" patched diameter,
if he patches like Jerry does.

Base of bullet bumps up to fill the .472" grooves with paper-covered lead. Seyfried said about the bottom one third of bullet filled the grooves and the upper bullet was bore-riding with minimal friction.

I say Jerry needs to go ahead and soften his bullets just a little and make them a little heavier by using 20:1 alloy like Seyfried did.

Then he might be shooting a 570-grainer into one hole at 200 yards.
sharpsguy is a pretty good coach for that kind of shooting, and would make a good witness for posterity.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
BTW, the .461 Gibbs NO 1, and .461 Gibbs NO 2, look an awful lot like the 44-77 and 44-90 Sharps bottleneck cartridges, a lot of similarities going on between the two country's back in the day figuring out how to make these rifles work and shoot accurately.

Also, has anyone noticed how clean the bore is after 10 rounds fired in pic number 9? no funny stuff here, no duplexing or wiping, crazy stuff, have never seen anything like this.

That is the great thing about paper patch and black powder. Self cleaning !
There is still nothing better in many ways if you have the gumption to shoot PP&BP.
Us lazy shooters prefer powder-coat paint and gas checks with smokeless for cast bullets.
Jacketed and monometal bullets can be switched into those loads if velocities over 2200 fps are needed for whatever devilish reason.
I have recently had some coaching from sharpsguy on PP&BP for the .40-cals, .40-65 WCF and .40-90 Sharps BN.
I want to practice the arts & sciences of PP&BP on the .40-cals.
sharpsguy did remark on those caliber transitions,
toward the end of the Sharps Era the buffalo hunters were using the .40-cals more, and doing well at long range.

Metallic military cartridge leap-frogging:
Americans went from .58-cal to .50-cal about 1866.
Brits went from .58-cal to .45-cal about 1871.
Americans had been experimenting with .45-cal rimfires during the 1860s (Civil War spurred), then finally the .45-70 Govt centerfire 1873.

The sporting and target cartridge development is a huge can of worms, American and British:
I'll see if I can find images of the .44-77 and .44-90 Sharps BN cartridges for visual comparison to the .461 Gibbs No.1 and No.2.

Whitworth muzzleloaders and Gibbs and Rigby muzzle loaders were a huge development with conical bullets about .45-bore,
following after the "Express" roundballers.
But It was all inspired by the Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle, the first "Express Rifles."
Yes, the ultimate perfection of the .458 Winchester Magnum traces its heritage back to the .45-caliber "Kentucky Rifle"
which was the first of the practical all-purpose rifles.
Too bad so many of them got shot out and rebored to bigger calibers through such heavy, successful use, on into posterity.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Excerpts for book review of George A. Hoyem's magnificent book: Buy this book wherever you can find one !



Page 27 has the line-up of Sharps .44 cartridges and the .45-75-420 2.1" Sharps loading of the .45-70 Springfield "Govt." case:



Frank Sellers in SHARPS FIREARMS:
p. 304:

quote:

In the early period of buffalo hunting, the .44/75 2-1/4 inch and .50/70 Government cartridges were widely used; from 1870 to 1875 they were the most popular calibers on the ranges.

p.339:

quote:

.44 CALIBRE 2-1/4 INCH BOTTLENECK

This was the first metallic cartridge to appear in a sporting rifle in April of 1869.
Originally it was a Remington cartridge; but it became, next to the .45/70 in a much later period, the most popular Sharps cartridge for the Sporting rifles. Until 1876 it outsold all other cartridges and until that year it was loaded with 70 grains as a standard powder charge. In February 1876 they increased the powder charge to 75 grains. Both Remington and U.M.C. loaded the same case with 77 grains of powder, thus giving birth to the rather famous .44/77. The standard load in this case for the factory was .44/70/380 until 1876 and .44/75/405 after that date.

.44 CALIBRE 2-5/8 INCH BOTTLENECK

This case was introduced in June 1873 shortly after the .40/90 cartridge, which is the same length. This cartridge rapidly became the favorite with the buffalo hunters and remained their favorite until the winter of 1876 when the .45 2-7/8 inch began to take over the field. When loaded as hunting cartridges, these were usually .44/90/450 or .44/90/500. The heavier bullet weights were used exclusively for Creedmoor and long range shooting.

Book review: SHARPS FIREARMS by Frank Sellers is magnificent too.
Don't be without a copy.
Page 340 has this gem, following the .45 CALIBRE 2-7/8 INCH STRAIGHT of January 12, 1876:

quote:

.45 CALIBRE 2.6 INCH STRAIGHT

This case was first used in November 1876 ... The standard load in this case was .45/100/550 paper patch.

That was another step in the evolution of the .458 Winchester Magnum perfection less than 80 years in the future.

If Gibbs patterned his cartridges of circa 1882 after the earlier Sharps bottlenecks,
then Rigby copied the straight ones for his match cartridges of .45-bore, 2.6" and 2.4".

Or did the bottleneck leap-frogging start with the .44/77 Remington Rolling Block of pre-1869, then Sharps chambered that in their first metallic cartridge Sporting Rifle in April 1869,
then the .577/.450 Martini-Henry of 1871, etc. etc.
Leap-frogging cans of worms of sporting and military cartridge confabrications ! ... Yumpin' Yehossephat !

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

That is ALL some damn good stuff RIP, I appreciate the research legwork, the 'rich' history in these cartridges is both interesting and very telling, a lot to be said about how, where, and why we came to be.

Target/Match shooting was most surely a gentlemen's game back in that day, but first, we had to eat AND stay alive.

The old muzzle loaders and BPCR rifles is a hobby/study that can in no way EVER be boring, simply 'too' much good hooked to them.

AMEN Jerry !
Absolutely fascinating stuff !
Now that you have proved you can duplicate the historically correct, mighty .461 Gibbs No. 2 BPCR ballistics with the short-and-mighty .45-70 BPCR,
it is time for you to get back to out-doing Quigley !

Put your paper-patched 570-grainer in a .45-110 2-7/8" case and go to town !
Maybe adding a grease cookie between two milk carton wads under the bullet,
and forgetting the stack of fiber wads,
will give you a better lube star.

Speaking of out-doing Quigley, I know you can do it !
Evidence for the case is shown below in Exhibit A and Exhibit B:

A:



B:



You got some more 'splainin' to do, Jerry.

If sharpsguy gets too worked up over the excesses of the .50-cal,
I will try to soothe him with talk of .40- and .45-caliber moulds for paper-patched bullets.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

RIP, the 45-110 would indeed be a beast with the big 570gr bullets, it's a 15 pound bull barrel hunting rifle with buckhorn barrel sights.

I laughed and sent this pic at the casting pot this morning, have had 40 rounds of 50-90 cases powdered with compression and wad I needed to get some bullets patched up and stuck in, these bullets are .494 bare and patch up to 500-501, they weigh 705gr at 16 to 1 alloy and leave at 1300 fps over 120gr Swiss 1FG.

The next pic is six rounds fired into a bit over 10 inches on my 700 yard gong using the Big 50 and [Quigley sight] Hoke tang sight, they fly really well and hit even harder, speaking of the 16 to 1, now that the pot has that in it, i'll try to cast a few up in 45 cal over the weekend and see how much closer we are to 570gr from 561.

The pic I just sent you is the 50 cal at 200 yards for comparison, shooting the 45-70 with buckhorn barrel sights is MUCH harder than the 50 at the same range with a Hoke tang sight.

BTW, Quigley is an O.I.H. shooter extraordinaire!