That is impressive!
what is your load and OAL?

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Good results with 300gr TSX loaded in my 45-70 Ruger No.1 at 2600 fps mv. 1 broadside shoulder shot DRT at 150 yards. Massive shock at higher impact speeds.

Long throat in my 45-70 Ruger No.1. Bullets can be seated out further for increased case capacity (300gr TSX 45-70 round shown above is for my Traditions Outfitter G2 takedown rifle which has a rather short throat). Reference - Barnes Reloading Manual #1.

45-70 with a Win Mag throat?

My 45-70 Ruger No.1 throat length is long enough to chamber 325gr FTX and 500gr IL rounds as shown.

45-70-500 would be awesome in a WM throat 45-70. Jeffeosso did a long throat 45-70 and called it the 45-70 Nitro iirc. Kinda like a 45-90 useable case capacity but 45-70 case.

1900 fps mv no problem with my Ruger No.1 45-70-500gr IL. Except the scope internals let go after repeated firings. Not a cheepie scope either. Claimed to withstand punishing recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Hyak55171:
What's everyones favorite bullets for these animals, including deer and caribou. I handload so thats an option after i finish using up my factory fodder. Ordered 100 for the 400gr speer flat nose softs, figured those at about 1600 or 1700 out of my marlin SBL will suffice for deer and elk for now

If you handload, or have strong interest in doing it in the near future, I have specifications for [I believe all three] 415, 420, and 425 grain custom bullet molds. . . . In all honesty, neither my 45-70s nor my shoulder detects much difference among the three. All are LFN-GC bullets.

From THE MISSION thread, this was planned before sharpsguy converted me to The Smokey Side:



After I shoot the above to satisfy idle curiosity,
I will scrub the barrel of all traces of Harbor Freight Red and smokeless fouling.
Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger will be born again in pursuit of sharpsguy loads.
I may have to use a scope at first, 10X to resolve as well as sharpsguy's naked eye, maybe.




Eventually I will try my naked eye and barrel sights, just for fun !

If the .45-2.6" is supposed to be the most challenging of all to perfect,
God help me in this pursuit of Buffalo Bill Bagwell's Ballistics.

Rip ...

Hornady 350gr RN fired from 45-70 Marlin recovered from Bull Moose. Impacted heavy bone at speeds noted.

A farewell to smokeless and powder-coat paint and gas checks for Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger.
She seems to want to shoot.
Hereafter it is BP, wheel weights, wax paper, and beeswax and olive oil for Goldie:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jerry,

Good to hear that you have been so well educated by Mr. Bagwell and so well fed by Mrs. Bagwell.

Bill,

You must write a book about your shooting and hunting passion.
You have plenty to tell about accuracy and effective hunting loads.
BAGGING WELL by Bill "Sharps Guy" Bagwell.
OK, I am sure you can do better on the title.
Some celebrity "tell-all" tales should not be neglected.

Rip ...

Yes Sir, all of the above remains my pleasure RIP.

Jerry,

Bill's shooting would make a pro blush.
He's got Betty Davis Eyes.


Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jerry,

Bill's shooting would make a pro blush.
He's got Betty Davis Eyes.

Rip ...

LOL, yes, and then some ; ]

Kim Carnes "Bette Davis Eyes" 1981
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwO9wg64HyY
... then leads into Gordon Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vST6hVRj2A
... then Lynyrd Skynyrd "Simple Man."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmTkKz60W8

Rip ...

For my .457"-grooved rifle using BP, the PH sized to .457" and lubed with beeswax and olive oil:



Rip ...

400gr Swift A-Frame fired from 45-70 Handi-Rifle recovered from Elk. Impacted heavy bone at speeds noted. Surprised these bonded core bullets didn't punch clear thru.

I would go with Buffalo Bore. Good, big, banging, biting, brutal bullets.

Buffalo Bore

Good point.

"Mono-metal bullets have a few advantages (a couple of disadvantages too) over typical non-expanding hard cast bullets."

"...hard cast bullets can smear their nose profile when they hit large bones at close range/high velocity. When the flat nose smears and changes shape, it can impact straight line penetration."

That is indeed an interesting solid for a .45-70 ...
“DANGEROUS GAME” 45-70 MAGNUM - Mono-Metal
380 gr. Mono-Metal WFN @ 2,075 fps / 3,632 ft lbs
20 Round Box, ITEM 8DG 380
... and a nice sampling of some actual velocities matched to the rifles that did them:
➤ 2,135 fps -- Browning Miroku 1885, 28-inch
➤ 2,068 fps -- Winchester Miroku 1886, 22-inch
➤ 2,047 fps -- Marlin 1895, 20-inch
➤ 2,021 fps -- Marlin 1895, 18.5-inch

If you want a brass or copper solid, Woodleigh .458/325-gr Hydro,
this manual load for it is said to be intended for Marlin 1895 and Ruger No.1:

H322 59.5 grains (compressed) >>> 2250 fps

That is probably from a 22" barrel, not specified.

For Ruger No.1 rifles onlY:

H4198 56.0 gr.(C) >>> 2380 fps
H322 63.0 gr.(C) >>> 2375 fps




Rip ...

Woodleigh Hydro solid should be a good penetrator.

400gr Barnes Busters at 1800 fps mv loaded up for my 45-70 Marlin GBL. Going to give these a try next. Should perform as claimed. 6 in the tube + 1 in the spout = 7 shots on tap.

I would not be surprised if the 475 grain PH bullet at 1300 fps gets more penetration than the 400 grain Speer at 1800.

A friend of mine was using some 400 grain punch bullets in his 1886 Winchester 45-70 at 1800fps. I sent him some 475 grain cast PH bullets, and told him to load them over 38.5 grains of IMR 3031 for about 1350 fps. His 100 yard target had a clay backstop, and I had him on the phone, and asked him how the PH bullets shot relative to the punch bullets. He said the cast Lyman bullet was more accurate. I then asked him how the bullets compared as far as penetration. He said he was digging the punch bullets out of the clay at about 18 inches, but he hadn't been able to dig deep enough to recover one of the PH bullets.

We'll see one way or the other when RIP gets his 2.6 up and running with black powder.

Wasn't there a time in our (UsA) history when the 45/70 was pretty much the main gun for hunting? Weren't thousands upon thousands, if not millions of Buffalo killed with them, along with elk and deer and bear.

What did they use?

The 45-70 was actually a Johnny come lately to the buffalo harvest. The cartridge was introduced in 1873, and the Sharps factory did not catalog ammunition for it until 1875, at which time it was offered with a 400 grain bullet. The 500 grain Govt. bullet was introduced by the Springfield Armory in 1881, and by that time the buffalo hunting was for all intents and purposes, finished. The last year of widespread buffalo hunting was 1876, after which time the herds had been shot out.

The buffalo harvest started in 1869, and the two most widely used cartridges were the 50-70 and the 44-77. The 44-77 was and is a splendid cartridge, and the first metallic cartridge offered by Sharps. Other widely used cartridges were the 44-90 Straight and the 44-90 BN, as well as the 40-70 Straight and BN, the 45-110 aka the 45 2 7/8, the 40-90 BN, and prior to 1874, the 50-90 saw a bit of use.

There were a number of effective Sharps chamberings in widespread use prior to the introduction of the 45-70. The 45-70 really gained its following with the advent of the 1886 Winchester, which had the strength to handle this shorter, powerful cartridge. The 45-70 killed a lot of critters, including buffalo, to be sure. But the majority of buffalo were taken by other cartridges.

Sharpsguy

Thank you very much for that history. Very interesting.

sharpsguy has forwarded a couple of pics of a bison taken with the "475-grain PH" and BP.
He can add the commentary if he wishes.
I think he has a lot of "splainin" to do,
questions welcome:






Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
I would not be surprised if the 475 grain PH bullet at 1300 fps gets more penetration than the 400 grain Speer at 1800.

A friend of mine was using some 400 grain punch bullets in his 1886 Winchester 45-70 at 1800fps. I sent him some 475 grain cast PH bullets, and told him to load them over 38.5 grains of IMR 3031 for about 1350 fps. His 100 yard target had a clay backstop, and I had him on the phone, and asked him how the PH bullets shot relative to the punch bullets. He said the cast Lyman bullet was more accurate. I then asked him how the bullets compared as far as penetration. He said he was digging the punch bullets out of the clay at about 18 inches, but he hadn't been able to dig deep enough to recover one of the PH bullets.

We'll see one way or the other when RIP gets his 2.6 up and running with black powder.

OK. I will cast some Lyman 457121PH in WW/Pb heavy enough to be 475 grains, instead of my 462-grain version in 92-521.
Will load those 475-grainers to ~1300 fps MV in Goldie Pedersoli the .45-2.6" SWT with BP,
and the 400-grain Barnes Buster to 1800 fps in a .45-70 with same 1:18" twist,
and the Iron Waterboard Buffalo bullet trap will be brought out of pasture.
Then a Woodleigh 480-grain Hydro and a Bubba's Bastard File Bulletwerkes 480-gr XTSX Copper Buffalo Buster
will be compared at ~2250 fps in the 1:14" twist .458 WIN 3.6" LongCOL.

Rip ...

That buffalo skull came off of a cow shot by one of my friends. He shot it with a bull barreled
Shiloh 45-70 from 85 yards with a 480 grain PH bullet and 66 grains of 3f black powder. Velocity was 1242 fps over my Oehler 35P.

I was watching through binoculars from about 250 yards away, and the buffalo went straight down so fast that I thought my friend--who is my dentist, BTW--had missed, and I momentarily lost sight of the animal. Needless to say, we did not find the bullet.

My friend decided to do a European mount, and to clean the skull, he wrapped a handy piece of barbed wire around it so retrieval would be easy, and put the skull in a pond on his farm thinking that the fish and turtles could clean the flesh off of it. I got there a bit after he put it in the pond, and he pulled it out for me to look at it, and I took the pictures. I think this cleaning procedure was one of those ideas that sounded better than it worked in practice and the skull wound up at a taxidermist.

Anyway, now we know what happens when you shoot a buffalo cow between the eyes at 85 yards with a PH bullet out of a 45-70.

quote:

400gr Barnes Busters at 1800 fps mv

This may be my next bullet to use since 405 gr, Remingtons are hard to find.

Dave

"Elmer Keith Load for .45-70 Govt." was a 400-grainer on top of 53.0 grains IMR-3031 for about 1800 fps.
I would substitute 53.0 grains of Hodgdon BENCHMARK
and expect same MV with less temperature sensitivity.
Your mileage may vary.
53.0 grains of RL-7 for +2000 fps with 400-grainer in a Marlin 1895 .45-70 Govt. is just too much.
Loosens every screw in the gun after 3 shots, in my experience.
A .450 Marlin is silly if you can handload for a .45-70 Govt.

I have some pure lead to mix with clip-on wheel weights (50:50) and cast some "475-grain" PH bullets, water-dropped, to try at about 1300 fps MV.

Rip ...

You're about too have entirely to much fun here RIP.

To you guys shooting smokeless Marlins, I had an old breeder bull die a few winters back, he weighed in the neighborhood of 1700 lbs, I took my JD tractor with loader, threw a big chain in the bucket, along with a chainsaw, double bit ax, a damn big knife and went to work.

The load I used in my 26" barreled Marlin Cowboy flung the 525gr Beartooth Pile Driver bullets to 1744 fps in WW brass, the RL-7 powder was lit with CCI-250 primers.

I hung that bull, rolled him over, even drug him out flat for a ham shot up into the chest, those were the only bullets recovered, they were in a 55 gallon blood bucket of chum, internal organs etc up between his shoulders.

All other shots, double shoulder, last rib going in to exit shoulder, tight behind shoulder to exit off shoulder, were all lost in the pasture, if I ever had need for a smokeless heavy penetrator lever gun load that is the one.

Case life was good, the rifle handled it with ease, ease of extraction and no leading of the bore either, I had a Lyman receiver sight on that rifle, shots were taken from five feet to over 50 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
You're about too have entirely to much fun here RIP ...
... The load I used in my 26" barreled Marlin Cowboy flung the 525gr Beartooth Pile Driver bullets to 1744 fps in WW brass, the RL-7 powder was lit with CCI-250 primers.

Jerry,

Thanks for the kind donation of .45-2.6" brass.
I certainly shall put it to good use, with BP and cast bullets.
Heck of a Marlin 1895 load there.
About all the fun one could want for in a Ruger No.1 also:




HOLY SMOKES
.461"-diameter bullet in .457"-diameter barrel grooves, loaded to Marlin COL for SMOKELESS:



1895 Marlin barrels are .457"-grooved ?

Rip ...

the cast bullets in the above pics show the groove below the crimping groove as "empty". why are they not lubed. i have read over and over that the more lube the better. sorry if its a dumb question.

RIP, glad to see you've already visited the 525 grain [actually, iirc 539 grain] Beartooths, and with that #1 have most likely visited them a bit faster than me, I believe those bullets will draw down nicely going through a Marlin, I never ran into any excessive pressure issues with my loads.

And you're most welcome on the brass, I know you'll put it to good use.

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
the cast bullets in the above pics show the groove below the crimping groove as "empty". why are they not lubed. i have read over and over that the more lube the better. sorry if its a dumb question.

Not a dumb question at all john c, I don't have an answer as all my bullets had every lube groove filled.

I confess I don't know the answer for sure and certain, either. BUT. Here is a hearsay second hand answer I stumbled across on a cast bullet forum on the internet years ago, so it must be true.

Some cast bullet accuracy buffs were chasing uncalled flyers and one of them came up with the idea that too much lube on the bullet was causing a so called "lube purge" to occur as the bullet was enroute down the barrel, thus causing uneven and random lubricity issues with some bullets as they traversed the bore. This led to experiments with fewer lube grooves being filled in order to eliminate the offending excess lube. The idea was to use no more lube than was absolutely necessary to prevent leading. You were supposed to decide which you and your rifle liked best by trial and error.

FWIW, my favorite bullet, the Lyman 457121PH, has SEVEN beautiful lube grooves, and I fill them all up. I shoot black powder, so your mileage may vary. And remember, you got this about third hand off the internet.

I am still learning which side of my mouth to stick my tongue out of when pouring the cast in a particular alloy.
Water-dropped, these are plenty hard:

I bet if I mixed my 92/5/2/1 alloy with an equal amount of pure lead,
it would prove very similar to clip-on WW mixed with pure lead 50:50.

Rip ...

boom stick,

Thanks for your edit above.
Any nonsense is more appropriate for the "never ending" thread, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
RIP, glad to see you've already visited the 525 grain [actually, iirc 539 grain] Beartooths, and with that #1 have most likely visited them a bit faster than me, I believe those bullets will draw down nicely going through a Marlin, I never ran into any excessive pressure issues with my loads.

And you're most welcome on the brass, I know you'll put it to good use.

Jerry,

I just googled your bullet and snagged those pictures of the 525-gr Pile Driver. I have not tried them myself, but I am sure they are good,
if that big FN will feed in the subject rifle.

My RCBS 45-500 FNGC "Smokeless Imitator" of the PH:
It has been lost in tracking. First time MidwayUSA ever screwed up after dozens of orders over the decades.
I am giving them until Monday, then I get to call them again and get them to fix the problem. Free shipping my ass!

Your brass donation is getting good use, thanks again. I primed with CCI BR-2 since you and Bill both recommend that primer for BP.
I am starting off with 18 pieces of it with 18 PH bullets,
first time I ever tried indexing the bullets:





Lube will be 50:50-BO (Beeswax & Olive oil).
Circle Fly Nitro Card over powder, wax paper single layer (Cut-Rite) between card and bullet.
COL 3.035" or whatever covers all the grease grooves with brass.
They won't be as impressive looking in a bandolier as paper-patched bullets are.
It will be interesting to see how they work in the .458 WIN throat of my .45-100 2.6" Sharps Straight Winchester-Throated.
If not so good, then I will have to go to the SAAMI .45-70 Govt. "Short Throat"
with 66 grains of FFFg, straight BP,
as per sharpsguy.

Rip ...