4sixteen--I'll dig around and see if I can't find some five and ten shot groups from a couple of years ago that I shot with cast bullets and black powder. I shot them with a couple of my out of the box Pedersoli Sharps at 100 yards. They were shot with iron sights, and shoot all the way through bison and elk, BTW.
I'll have to wait until my wife gets in from work so she can photograph them with her cell phone and get them up to RIP for posting. I think you will find them interesting. Stay tuned.

sharpsguy,

That would be great. Send some target photos.
Much more interesting to shoot with homemade bullets and iron sights in a Sharps, even a Pedersoli.

The kind of shooting that 4sixteen is advocating is plumb big boring.
I was doing that with my Marlin 1895 when I was still in baby diapers, figuratively speaking.

I hope to develop some more good BP and cast bullet loads for my rifles before I end up in adult diapers:
.40-65 WIN, .40-90 Sharps BN, .45-70 Govt., .50-70 Govt., .50-90 Sharps, but first,
the .45-2.6"-SWT, by duck feather if necessary.

Rip ...

Irrelevant here. Out of consideration for the original post: 45-70 Marlin bullet selection for Elk, Moose and Bear. Presumably for effective terminal performance and reliability.

Trials and tribulations discussion posts for BP rifles, rounds, load development and performance belong elsewhere.

I don't think the parameters of the original post were specific to the Marlin--rather the 45-70 cartridge. I have taken bison and elk with the loads that will be posted in a bit. Read 'em and weep.

Yep; I was the fellow who brought up a cast bullet to the OP about the 4th post or so. I stand by my comment whether he shoots a Marlin or something else.
Cast just works in the 45-70 or 458WM for a game get-ter.

sharpsguy's targets, all iron sights, 100 yards, and 5 or more shots, with cast bullets and BP.
He may make comments on the following as needed,
if any questions,
or if I got anything wrong:

Exhibit A:



Exhibit B:



Exhibit C:



Exhibit D:



Exhibit E:



Exhibit F:



I was happy to see that more than one of the above were with Pedersoli Sharps replicas.
The "Navy Arms" and "Dixie Gun Works" Sharps rifles are usually by Pedersoli.
I will make up some of the famous zebra flattening loads in .45-70 and try them in my Pedersoli 1874s and a Browning Winchester 1885.
Then try bullets from the same mould (Lyman 457121PH) with proper duck feathers for smokeless powder.

Rip ...

I'll start the questioning if sharpsguy wouldn't mind telling some more details:

What rifle make and chambering was used for Exhibit A ?
Are all 10 shots on paper here ?
Which bullet ?
Duck feathers ?

Exhibit A:



Rip ...

The rifle is a Navy Arms Pedersoli that they called a "Buffalo Rifle" It has a 28 inch barrel, and was originally a 45-70. I rechambered it by hand to 45-90 with a reamer that I borrowed from Dale Jones.

All 10 shots are on paper. The first two out of a clean barrel went in to the hole at 5 o'clock, the other eight went in to the larger hole.

The bullet is a 540 grain bullet from a mold by Steve Brooks. The powder charge was 90 grains of 1f Goex Express under a WLR large rifle primer. No ducks were injured in loading this ammunition or shooting this group.

That's real good. He not only knows how to cast bullets but also shoot.

While not at his level I have shot good groups at 100 yards with open sights BUT having the right aiming mark is critical.

With aperture sight and ring foresight and right size aiming mark a good shooter will be right the with a bloke shooting a scoped rifle.

Mike, I bet sharpsguy appreciates the flowers.

You forgot to mention the part about getting some shooting spectacles that correct the shooter's vision to 20/10.

Continuing with the cross examination of sharpsguy:

Exhibit B:




Sir, can you explain the following:

"Navy 45-70": A Pedersoli Sharps with what barrel length and contour?

"Clean progressive": Does this mean you patched the bore after each shot? Blew down the muzzle or a blow tube in the breech before patching?

"Pinhead post, Russian #1 hole": Was that a tang rear sight of Soule/vernier type? What is a Russian #1 hole?

"SH3": What does that mean?

"BBl 69LW": What does this mean?

"DTPLWPW": ?

"Goose GREASE": What sort of lube is that? Is it related to duck feathers?

Rip ...

That is the same Navy Arms Pedersoli I used to shoot the earlier group--before I rechambered it. The rifle was originally a 45-70.

That is actually "Clear Progressive", referring to my glasses which means they were progressives with no tint. Just everyday eyeglasses. I used a blow tube between shots, no wiping. The front sight was a pinhead post, and the rear sight was a Borchardt style Parts Unknown Soule type made in the Ukraine, thus I called it a "Russian" sight. The sight has a Hadley eyepiece, and I was using the first hole in it.

My penmanship admitedly sucks, and that "SH3 is actually .543, which is the group size, center to center, for five shots. BB1 is the designation I gave to that Brooks bullet, and 69LW is the grain weight and lot of Goex 2f powder I was shooting.

DTPLWPW--remember my penmanship--is actually DTPCWPW which means the powder was drop tubed, pre compressed, and a wax paper wad was used between the powder and the bullet. "Goose Grease" is a lube experiment I had going on at the time.

Just a little shorthand code that lets me keep up with what works and what doesn't. When you find something that works, it is easy to fix it until you break it. I heard a guy say one time that when he finally got his gun working, he wouldn't even change his underwear and socks when he cast bullets and loaded ammunition. I'm not quite that extreme, but I do like to keep up with what I am doing and how I am doing it.

Thank you, Sir. It seems this line of questioning is productive of reading comprehension on my part, and maybe for better understanding by 4sixteen.
It is clearer than mud now and quite impressive to anyone who will admit it.

Regarding the scratchings on the brown paper bag with a spot of black spray paint, in Exhibit C below, please:

"#2 45-110": Is this the Shiloh Sharps with "Business-type" tapered round 30" barrel that went to Africa along with the .45-70?

"01-79": ?

"1F 106.5 gr. Bk": Obviously the powder charge. Right?

"PJC 54": Cropped a 2, for Paul Jones Copy 542-grain bullet? Or Paper Jacket Cartridge 542-grainer?

"Moist very little fouling": Related to 84*F 43% Relative Humidity, which is a good thing, to reduce the BP fouling?

Exhibit C:



Rip ...

I probably should've specified in the original post that im more interested in jacketed bullets due to personal preference, but i did on the recommendation from either here or a buddy, order some cast performance 405gr

I have a bunch of Berry's Hardcast "405-gr" FN, bought a box of 500 of them.
Great for .45-70.
They are the old style, may be different now. Mine are .459"/409-grainers with blue lube.
They make a great Elmer Keith load at about 1800 fps MV with smokeless, in a Marlin 1895 or Winchester 1886 (53 grains of IMR-3031 per Elmer.)

They also make a nice plinker in the .458 WIN with only 26 grains of AA-5744, just under 1200 fps,
no duck feathers required, just load them short to cover the grease grooves and plink away.

Thanks for starting this thread, Hyak55171.
Once you go cast, there is no going back.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I have a bunch of Berry's Hardcast "405-gr" FN, bought a box of 500 of them.
Great for .45-70.
They are the old style, may be different now. Mine are .459"/409-grainers with blue lube.
They make a great Elmer Keith load at about 1800 fps MV with smokeless, in a Marlin 1895 or Winchester 1886 (53 grains of IMR-3031 per Elmer.)

They also make a nice plinker in the .458 WIN with only 26 grains of AA-5744, just under 1200 fps,
no duck feathers required, just load them short to cover the grease grooves and plink away.

Thanks for starting this thread, Hyak55171.
Once you go cast, there is no going back.

Rip ...

I've shot factory cast loads, just not a huuuuuge fan. But im also open to it if its actually better

RIP--That was shot from a bull barreled 16 pound Shiloh Number 3 Sporter. The 01-79 is the lot number and granulation of the powder, and you are correct in that the bullet is/was a 542 graim Paul Jones Creedmoor grease groove bullet. I took my first bison with that rifle in Montana shooting a 535 grain paper patched bullet.

I see, sharpsguy, please continue with Exhibit D:

"#1 Dixie ...": A Pedersoli .45-70 Govt. ?

"PJP 70.2 OON ...": Something to do with the powder charge? Please specify bullet and powder charge less cryptically.

Exhibit D:



I understand the "84*" as ambient temperature in degrees F,
and primer was WLR.

Outstanding standard deviation of 7 fps for 7 shots averaging exactly 1100 fps.
Throw out the high and the low and you have a 5-shot mean of 1102 fps with a standard deviation of 1.6 fps and an extreme spread of 4 fps.

Subsonic all the way from muzzle to target, and a very tiny group.
Really tiny central 5-shot bughole.

That one flyer striking high must have been the low velocity round, 1086 fps, greatest outlier.
More barrel time with the muzzle rising in recoil, even if slight, and the bullet hits higher at 100 yards, the slower bullet.
The fastest bullet at 1110 fps might have made the lowest strike on target, unless some compensating error such as the caress of a duck feather occurred.

Am I right?

Some people do not believe this can happen.

Rip ...

That 70.2 OONO is the powder charge in grains and the lot number of the powder. That high shot was the first shot out of a clean barrel that I did not chronograph. There are 8 shots on the target, 7 in the one hole and 7 on the chronograph tape.

OK, one fouling flier of unknown velocity from a clean barrel.
I still say, of the remaining seven shots, that the low velocity shot went high and the high velocity shot went low,
if no "compensating errors" were involved.
Would have been a less vertically elongated one-hole group without them, most likely.

What bullet was that, a paper-patched heavy like 535 to 542 grains?

Rip ...

The bullet notation-PJP-denotes a Paul Jones 542 grain bullet that is a greaser. He had several iterations of his Creedmoor bullet, and it was one of those. I found the Lyman 457132 Postell to be generally more accurate than the custom molds, interestingly enough.

Notice on exhibit "F" where the group is .514 that the bullet is the 457132. They are similar, but not identical, and some will shoot better than others.

I agree that velocity variations lead to high and low impacts, but when the distance is as close as 100 yards and the groups are this small, variations in light have a greater bearing on vertical spread. You wanna wreck a group? Squeeze one off when a cloud comes over in the middle of a string.

Got it.
So the grease-grooves can be as accurate as the paper-patched.
Might get a little leading eventually.
Shoot a paper-patched "cleaning round" now and then to wipe out some lead, until you can get to the double-naught steel wool, eh?
Thanks for the tips.
Another good use for steel wool: The quadruple-naught "extra fine" steel wool makes a great fire starter. Comes from the factory with oil on it, great tinder for the kindling.
You probably already knew that.
Maybe some here did not, like 4sixteen, if his knowledge of cast bullet performance is any indication.

Rip ...

It seems the ultimate BPCR load for a record target was done by George C. Gibbs at 1000 yards,
with his .45-bore .461 Gibbs.

Seems the ultimate .461 Gibbs No.1 match load was a 570-grain paper-patched bullet and 90 grains of BP, for about 1360 fps from a long barrel.

The .461 Gibbs No.1 loaded with that 570-grain bullet and 90 grains of BP was longer than the .461 Gibbs No.2 "Express" loaded with 360-grainer and 110 grains of BP.

Would not a hardcast .461-sized, 570-grain FN GC with powder-coat paint and smokeless powder be a great penetrator from a SAAMI .458 WIN,
with 1:14" twist and .459" groove diameter ?

Rip ...

I am getting the hang of the chicken scratchings.
Two different bullets, two well separated groups, on the same target with iron sights at 100 yards.
Shooting prone with cross sticks is something that will magnify recoil, eh ?
Nice shooting:

Exhibit E:



Rip ...

Sitting with Cross Sticks is about the only position I ever shoot at paper from anymore. Never could shoot prone comfortably. My neck comes out of my shoulders at the wrong angle.
There simply is no doubt that Cast Heavies in the 45 caliber bores shoots well and penetrates very well. Grease, Powder Coat, Paper patch; many ways to get it done but it can be done.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Sitting with Cross Sticks is about the only position I ever shoot at paper from anymore. Never could shoot prone comfortably. My neck comes out of my shoulders at the wrong angle.

I hear most everyone will quit shooting from prone with sticks when they get wise, or just old and stiff.

There simply is no doubt that Cast Heavies in the 45 caliber bores shoots well and penetrates very well. Grease, Powder Coat, Paper patch; many ways to get it done but it can be done.

Maybe 4sixteen thinks that cast bullet shooting never advanced beyond the .577 Enfield and "minnie-ball" days ?
.45-bore never used bullets wearing miniskirts.

A little evidence of progress:





From the ELEY CARTRIDGES book by C. W. Harding, some excellent reading:

https://www.theexplora.com/a-c...e-monkey-tails-tale/

Interesting that the old Westley Richards paper cartridges for monkey tails were similar to the early Sharps "capping" breech loaders.
In early 1861 Eley cataloged WR ammo using .457" diameter cylindrical bullets of 480-grains weight,
with 2-1/2 drams = 68 grains of BP
(in this case, a dram being a sixteenth of an ounce, or 1/256 of a pound, and a pound being 7000 grains).
By golly ! That sure was close to a sharpsguy load for a PH bullet in the .45-70 !

Further progress:







Rip ...

We are so limited in our thinking by the measures of our own abilities and experiences.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
We are so limited in our thinking by the measures of our own abilities and experiences.

So true.
If you stop learning, you are dead.
If you are not crazy about something, you are dead.

I am still alive!



















Sure beats dealing with the recoil of the .458 WIN LongCOL and smokeless powder with 544-grain cast bullets,
which, BTW, shoot about MOA at about 2150 fps MV.



Rip ...

While the cat is away, the mice will play.
I do like this 400-grainer for my Marlin Model 1895, and 1895 fps MV is OK,
as long as I remember to check every screw in the gun after each three shots:



The old Berry's Hardcast:



The bullet on the left above is given a flattened nose by pushing it through the Lyman Lubrisizer with the wrong nose punch.

A more recent make from Berry's of Utah:



Rip ...

You're having a blast RIP, I cant wait till everyday is Saturday, and speaking of cats and mice, the early bird does indeed get the worm, but, the second mouse gets the cheese ; ]

Hi Jerry,

I used some of your brass today to do this, thanks:



I guess I am retiring the PH bullet to the .45-70 Govt.
Above were my first three shots from a clean barrel and it did not get any better.
It was windy today, had to hold the chronograph tripod down with a hanging sandbag.
I could not get a single reading, just errors.
When I went to investigate/re-set chrono, I found grease cookie splatter all over the tripod and chronograph.
Lucky I did not destroy anything with my grease gun.

I packed it in, will give the .45-70 with PH and BP (and no grease cookie) a chance on another day.
The .45-2.6"-SWT is better with smokeless:



Rip ...

The bullet here is a 535-grain grease-groover.
Fantastic shooting at 100 yards with BP and cast bullets and iron sights,
sharpsguy used a Pedersoli for this:

Exhibit F:



Rip ...

Damned good shooting!

Hey RIP, you're most welcome, and glad to see you putting it to good use.

Back from the Trump Rally for Governor Matt Bevin in Lexington, KY,
I found this message from Bill's Better Half, she must be proud:



Hey Bill, congratulations on your immediate success this past weekend.
How long is the barrel on that Sharps?
Lawrence Ladder rear and blade front?
If blade, is it a copper or silver one?
What make/model range finder is hanging from your neck?
I guess cast bullet was effective again?

Rip ...

RIP--That Shiloh has a 30 inch barrel and is equipped with a Lawerence low notch rear barrel sight and a copper penny front. Distance was 85 yards according to the SIG Kilo 2200 rangefinder. Binoculars are 10x42 Vortex Diamondbacks.

The bullet was a 396 grain flatnose paper patch cast from 50/50 wheel weights and lead, which went straight through and destroyed the off side shoulder joint when it exited. The deer went about 5 yards after being hit. 1250 fps with black powder works.

Wow! Those monolithic Solids really work on Deer! Or is it Duolithic solids since they were 50/50 wheel weights and lead?
1250 FPS and 396 grains in that rifle would be a very soft shooting load at the butt end but a deadly one at the target end.
Darned facts are piling up in front the opinions again Rip. You and Sharpsguy are going to be in trouble.

Fury01,

I reckon you are in the same hot water too !

Those WW-Pb PH bullets will be used with straight BP and lube in the grooves only.
For deer hunting with .45-70.
First with the scoped High Wall to make sure they are good.
Then I will go wild with an iron-sighted Sharps.

Rip ...

Any thoughts on the 300gr Sierra ProHunter #8900 for these same animals? (elk, moose, bear)

I have always wanted a complete pass through with an exit wound because it causes an air leak that causes the lungs to collapse and gives a quicker kill.

Based on my experience shooting buffalo--bison, if you will--it takes a 480 grain or heavier bullet in a 45 caliber to give reliable pass through and exit. Shooting into a carcass, 400 and 450 grain bullets failed to exit, while 480 and 500 grain bullets always went all the way through.

Seeing as how elk and moose qualify as big animals, I would consider a 45 caliber bullet of less than 480 grains in weight to be too light. I have never killed a moose, but I have taken two elk with a 45-70 and one with a 45-110 using paper patched bullets weighing 511 and 535 grains respectively, and got complete pass through on all three animals. One was a spike that was shot end to end from 60 yards with the 45-70 and the bullet came out his chest.

My take is that if you want penetration on big animals, 300 grains is too light.