quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
I confess I don't know the answer for sure and certain, either. BUT. Here is a hearsay second hand answer I stumbled across on a cast bullet forum on the internet years ago, so it must be true.

Some cast bullet accuracy buffs were chasing uncalled flyers and one of them came up with the idea that too much lube on the bullet was causing a so called "lube purge" to occur as the bullet was enroute down the barrel, thus causing uneven and random lubricity issues with some bullets as they traversed the bore. This led to experiments with fewer lube grooves being filled in order to eliminate the offending excess lube. The idea was to use no more lube than was absolutely necessary to prevent leading. You were supposed to decide which you and your rifle liked best by trial and error.

FWIW, my favorite bullet, the Lyman 457121PH, has SEVEN beautiful lube grooves, and I fill them all up. I shoot black powder, so your mileage may vary. And remember, you got this about third hand off the internet.

book i read years ago stated that if when revolver shooting cast if bbl mouth didn't have excess lube on it after firing then you needed more lube on bullet, as a rule of thumb. i just fill em all up and then forget to look at mouth after popping em off. oh well. but it does seem like more would be better than less, not counting the flier problem.

I see bears and elk/moosies as two different bullets. If you had to have just one bullet, go for the heavy bear bullet. Wouldn’t you want a tough non expanding bear skull breaker bullet for grizzlies and a softer expanding bullet for elk/yogi?

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
The 45-70 was actually a Johnny come lately to the buffalo harvest. The cartridge was introduced in 1873, and the Sharps factory did not catalog ammunition for it until 1875, at which time it was offered with a 400 grain bullet. The 500 grain Govt. bullet was introduced by the Springfield Armory in 1881, and by that time the buffalo hunting was for all intents and purposes, finished. The last year of widespread buffalo hunting was 1876, after which time the herds had been shot out.

The buffalo harvest started in 1869, and the two most widely used cartridges were the 50-70 and the 44-77. The 44-77 was and is a splendid cartridge, and the first metallic cartridge offered by Sharps. Other widely used cartridges were the 44-90 Straight and the 44-90 BN, as well as the 40-70 Straight and BN, the 45-110 aka the 45 2 7/8, the 40-90 BN, and prior to 1874, the 50-90 saw a bit of use.

There were a number of effective Sharps chamberings in widespread use prior to the introduction of the 45-70. The 45-70 really gained its following with the advent of the 1886 Winchester, which had the strength to handle this shorter, powerful cartridge. The 45-70 killed a lot of critters, including buffalo, to be sure. But the majority of buffalo were taken by other cartridges.

This is a great summary of the way it was by sharpsguy.

The .44-calibers by Remington and Sharps were the darlings of the range and the plains as of 1869.
They were the first centerfire, metallic cartridges chambered in sporting rifles.

When the sensational international match of 1874 was announced, both Remington and Sharps quickly got on board to provide rifles.
The Americans were about equally served by Remington Rolling Blocks and Sharps Falling Blocks of a "Creedmoor" pattern.
They were chambered in .44-90 (according to the NRA) and used bullets of .447" caliber, according to Hoyem.
The .44-75 Remington and .44-77 Sharps used a "barely-bottle-necked" case (head size only 0.515") of 2-1/4" length,
and were identical except for powder charge, and bullet weights used, 300 to 470 grains, .447-caliber/.44-bore.

A .44-90-500-2-1/4" Sharps used the same case with heavier bullet of .447-caliber. The 500-grain paper-patched was seated shallowly.

Then there was a .44-90-520 Sharps with heavier bullet still and longer 2-5/8" case, barely-bottle-necked, head size 0.517", bullet diameter 0.446".
(Hoyem)
On the same 2-5/8" BN case came also a .44-100 and .44-105 with 500-grain/.446-caliber bullet. (Hoyem)

The Irish brought their .45-bore muzzle loaders against the American .44-bore breech loaders.
The Irish would have won except for one shot fired at the wrong 1000-yard target by Irishman Mr. J. K. Millner.

Just a little incentive to go ahead and convert those breech-loading match rifle and buffalo rifles to .45-bore?
The U.S. Military had already gone .45-bore the year before with the .45-70 Govt.
It was about time to get with the program. The .45-bore was the road to the .458 Winchester Magnum, the greatest sporting rifle ever.

Rip ...

boom stick--I respectfully disagree. I don't want a hard bullet for penetration and a soft bullet for expansion. What I want is a bullet that will give a nickel or quarter sized wound channel and four to six feet of penetration and most importantly an EXIT WOUND in front of the diaphragm. An exit wound in front of the diaphragm destroys the pressure differential between the chest cavity and the abdominal cavity, and without the pressure differential, the lungs can't work, and collapse. This causes immediate suffocation and usually systemic shock to the animal and a quick death.

A bullet that has expanded and is found under the skin on the opposite side HAS NOT DONE ITS JOB if it doesn't give an exit wound and an air leak. The ultimate cause of death is always suffocation, and causing the animal to bleed out takes longer than simply eliminating the oxygen supply. This is why a heart shot animal dies, but often runs for a long ways before the heart runs out of blood to pump. Collapse the lungs with an exit wound and cut off the oxygen RIGHT NOW and you get your animal a lot quicker.

With a good cast bullet like the PH, you get the best of all worlds. You get the wound channel, the penetration, and the ability to crush bone. Go back and look at the bison skull if you doubt that the PH bullet will penetrate bone. I have examined several bear skulls, one of them the # 2 B&C grizzly, and I promise that a bear skull is thinner and lighter constructed by far than the skull of that cow bison my friend shot. A bear skull, black bear or grizzly, is not much of a challenge for a 480 to 520 grain 30-1 bullet out of a Sharps. You don't need different bullets--you just need the RIGHT bullet in the right place.

I bust the shoulders taking out the spine in the process. Piles up dead right now.

4sixteen's bear shot is a DRT-bangflop,
requires accurate shot placement.
The bigger heart-lung-area is a surer shot,
and one can also take out a humerus on-side or off-side with that shot.
That requres a good bullet,
such as the .458/480-grain XTSX Copper Buffalo Buster at 2150 to 2300 fps to accomplish such a shot reliably, even on elephant.

I just finished dip-lubing the .456"/478-grain PH bullets.
Will run them through a .457" Lee sizer die (my BP barrel grooves are .457"), to clean off the excess lube, then seat them to 3.035" COL in the .45-2.6" brass.
I used a drop tube and a 0.025"-thick Nitro Card over the powder.
This requires only an additional 0.295" of BP compression to give a seating depth of 0.785".
Easy-peasy, since I have used a full 0.500" of compression in .50-70 Govt. BP loads previously.

IIRC, sharpsguy has been known to use 0.495" of BP compression in some of his loads.

Rip ...

Interesting points. Question, this Bullwinkle/Yogi bullet sounds like it would be good for a lot of the Dark Continent beasties too and not just the New World beasts, what African critters would you use this bear/moose bullet on?

quote:

...The bigger heart-lung-area is a surer shot,
and one can also take out a humerus on-side or off-side with that shot...

Say what?? With a broadside shot to the heart-lung area the bullet would have to abruptly bullet veer off course to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:

quote:

...The bigger heart-lung-area is a surer shot,
and one can also take out a humerus on-side or off-side with that shot...

Say what?? With a broadside shot to the heart-lung area the bullet would have to abruptly bullet veer off course to do that.

WHAT.
It happens with a quartering shot.
My first cape buffalo with a GSC FN .416/380-gr at 2500 fps from a .416 Rigby.
On-side humerus-heart-lungs and out the off-side ribs.
Quite elementary.
The humerus is the severest bony test in a cape buffalo.
Better use a good bullet.

Rip ...

My first two trips to Africa, I used a Shiloh Sharps 45 2 7/8, more commonly called a 45-110. The do everything bullet was a 511 round nosed paper patched bullet cast 30-1 or a Lyman 520 grain Govt bullet out of the same alloy. Both bullets have about the same nose shape.

I used black powder to drive the paper patched bullet to 1382 fps, and the Lyman bullet to 1360 fps. On the first two trips, I DID NOT RECOVER A SINGLE BULLET. I got complete pass through penetration and six of the nine animals were one shot, down and done. Only one, a blue wildebeast, went farther than 40 yards.

The third trip, I carried a Shiloh Number One Sporter in 45-70. Ammunition for this rifle was the Lyman 457121 PH bullet cast 50/50 clip on wheel weights and lead which gave a 480 grain flatnosed bullet. My Oehler 35P chronograph says velocity was 1242 fps.

Based on my prior experience, I would use the PH bullet for everything up to Cape Buffalo. For Cape Buffalo on up, where maximum penetration is needed, I would use the 520 grain Govt bullet, or a 530 grain paper patched bullet. Before you dismiss this out of hand, consider that one of my friends killed a Cape Buffalo in Africa a couple of years ago with his Shiloh 45-70 and a 535 grain paper patched bullet loaded with black powder.

Remember that in the 1870's through the 1890's the African settlers killed everything over there with lead bullets and black powder in their Martini-Henrys. Fredrick Selous killed a ton of stuff with a 450 Rigby Number 2 and black powder and lead loads. Remember also that all the animals in my reloading room were taken with cast lead bullets and black powder.

sharpsguy,

Selous more often used a .461 Gibbs No.1 Farquharson single shot
pushing his paper-patched 540-grainer along at about 1350 fps.
Good for Big Five in Selous' hands.

I have loaded the 480-gr PH bullet in my .45-2.6 SWT, ready to go.
Unfortunately, a high school classmate and team mate, one of the "Fearsome Foursome,"
just died and I need to attend to funeral matters.
There are only two of us left now, of the original four.
We'll both be at the funeral,
but the 21-gun salute will be fired by an honor guard.

I am impressed and jealous. I have a lot to learn from you. I think you should write a book. Call it “Black Powder and Lead”. If you could only have one rifle, what would it be? The Shiloh Sharps in 45-70?

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
My first two trips to Africa, I used a Shiloh Sharps 45 2 7/8, more commonly called a 45-110. The do everything bullet was a 511 round nosed paper patched bullet cast 30-1 or a Lyman 520 grain Govt bullet out of the same alloy. Both bullets have about the same nose shape.

I used black powder to drive the paper patched bullet to 1382 fps, and the Lyman bullet to 1360 fps. On the first two trips, I DID NOT RECOVER A SINGLE BULLET. I got complete pass through penetration and six of the nine animals were one shot, down and done. Only one, a blue wildebeast, went farther than 40 yards.

The third trip, I carried a Shiloh Number One Sporter in 45-70. Ammunition for this rifle was the Lyman 457121 PH bullet cast 50/50 clip on wheel weights and lead which gave a 480 grain flatnosed bullet. My Oehler 35P chronograph says velocity was 1242 fps.

Based on my prior experience, I would use the PH bullet for everything up to Cape Buffalo. For Cape Buffalo on up, where maximum penetration is needed, I would use the 520 grain Govt bullet, or a 530 grain paper patched bullet. Before you dismiss this out of hand, consider that one of my friends killed a Cape Buffalo in Africa a couple of years ago with his Shiloh 45-70 and a 535 grain paper patched bullet loaded with black powder.

Remember that in the 1870's through the 1890's the African settlers killed everything over there with lead bullets and black powder in their Martini-Henrys. Fredrick Selous killed a ton of stuff with a 450 Rigby Number 2 and black powder and lead loads. Remember also that all the animals in my reloading room were taken with cast lead bullets and black powder.

A Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 would be very hard to beat. It is accurate, versatile, reliable in the extreme, and kills very well. It also has an EJECTOR that will kick an empty about six feet over your shoulder, if need be.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
A Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 would be very hard to beat. It is accurate, versatile, reliable in the extreme, and kills very well. It also has an EJECTOR that will kick an empty about six feet over your shoulder, if need be.

In my shooting life the one thing I regret is not having got one of those Shiloh Sharps. I think I would have got 45/120 as it has a sort of pizzazz about it I guess it was just one of those things when the timing might have been right and being prepared to wait the "gun money" was going elsewhere.

There is a bloke in Australia and I think he has about 200 rifles and the bulk of them are black powder and the Shilos and is it Pdersoli? a cheap rifle and I think he also has original Sharps stuff. I reckon 99% of his shooting is with cast bullets. He lives on a small property outside of Brisbane where he can fire rifles and he sometimes runs a weekend course on bullet casting.

I have no idea whether it is true but I remember reading somewhere that the picture Quigley Down Under boosted Shiloh sales by a significant amount.

What model of Shiloh Sharps would you get? seems there are about a dozen forms of the rifle with many upgrades to get. what would be your ideal set up with sights etcetera? Thank you

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
A Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 would be very hard to beat. It is accurate, versatile, reliable in the extreme, and kills very well. It also has an EJECTOR that will kick an empty about six feet over your shoulder, if need be.

If you prefer a pistol grip AND a cheek piece, your choice is a Number One Sporter. For a pistol grip and no cheekpiece, you want a Roughrider. I have and use both. For a rifle with no pistol grip, your choice would be a Number Three Sporter. Regardless of which of those you choose, get a checkered steel shotgun buttplate, and be advised that Shilohs come with a 14 1/4 inch length of pull. I absolutely can't shoot a rifle that long, and specify a shorter length of pull. I always order one wood upgrade, as you get a lot of wood for the money with Shiloh. Standard case colors and barrel finish are more than adequate.

I strongly suggest a 45-70 for a number of reasons, brass availability being a major consideration, and the fact that the caliber is so versatile and a confirmed and proven killer that delivers both range and accuracy. Also, a 30 inch barrel is the length of choice for both convenience and the fact that this length works best with hunting sights. For a hunting rifle that you will carry, get either a standard weight barrel, or a number one heavy Half Octagon/Half round. Either configuration will give a rifle weight of less than eleven pounds. I use a 30 inch number one heavy on my 45 calibers and they weigh around 11 pounds 10 ounces.

By all means, get the rifle equipped with double set triggers. They are extremely versatile, allowing weights as low as two to four ounces, depending on your adjustment preference, or the rifle can be fired with the triggers unset for a crisp three 1/2 pound pull.

For a hunting rifle, get the full buckhorn rear barrel sight and a standard silver blade front If you twist off and get one, give me a shout and I'll show you how to use it.

Thank you for the offer and info. I should go handle a few different models and see how I like it.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:

I strongly suggest a 45-70 for a number of reasons,

I remember reading that several times but if I had got one I still would have been 45/120 as it would have been very much a rifle in the "just to have it" category.

I also like the noise of the big black powder charges. Although the ones I have heard have been the big black powder double rifles in 577.

Mike, a Shiloh Sharps is unlike other rifles in a lot of respects. For one, it is a rifle you LIKE to shoot. A lot. As in over and over. Get behind one at the bench, and five or ten shots is not even close to being enough. It's like eating potato chips--you can't eat just one. It's more like thirty or forty--or sixty shots at a session.

And a 45 3 1/4 kicks. Hard. And it is the kind of recoil that wears on you over time. It is a deep recoil that produces recoil headaches. I have shot my 45 2 7/8--I presently have three, two weighing 16 pounds and one weighing just under twelve-- so much that I get a recoil headache after six to eight rounds. I can and do continue to use them for hunting occasionally, but I no longer shoot them for fun.

A 45 3 1/4, or 45-120, if you prefer, doesn't give anything approaching decent accuracy if you load it down. It takes a 500 to 540 grain bullet and 105 to 120 grains of good black powder to make one come alive. They WILL shoot if you figure out a good load, and they are a hell of a hammer, but they quit being fun in short order.

There is a happy solution to this. You simply get a Shiloh Sharps in 45-120, then a back up rifle in 45-70--which kills as well as the 45-120, and then a 40-65, and while you are on a roll, add a 40-70 Straight to your battery. If you are like the rest of us who appreciate Sharps, you will soon be selling your other rifles to make room in your gunsafe for the new Shilohs as well as to help fund the new acquisitions. It is a fact that once you put a Shiloh Sharps in your gunsafe, you will start to hear a whimpering sound at night. That sound is your other rifles crying themselves to sleep, hoping they will turn into a Shiloh Sharps in the morning when they wake up. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Hyak55171:
What's everyones favorite bullets for these animals, including deer and caribou. I handload so thats an option after i finish using up my factory fodder. Ordered 100 for the 400gr speer flat nose softs, figured those at about 1600 or 1700 out of my marlin SBL will suffice for deer and elk for now

Cool rifle. Now 10 big bore Marlin models available. Including the return of the 444.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
Mike, a Shiloh Sharps is unlike other rifles in a lot of respects. For one, it is a rifle you LIKE to shoot. A lot ...

A 45 3 1/4, or 45-120, if you prefer, doesn't give anything approaching decent accuracy if you load it down. It takes a 500 to 540 grain bullet and 105 to 120 grains of good black powder to make one come alive. They WILL shoot if you figure out a good load, and they are a hell of a hammer, but they quit being fun in short order.

There is a happy solution to this ...

Maybe another happy solution will be the .45-2.6" SWT with 475-ish-grain PH.
80 grains of FFg goes in nicely with less than 0.3" of powder compression to seat the PH to 3.035" COL, exactly:



I am amazed at how easy it is to produce such exact uniformity in loading this,
with a card wad and a single thickness of wax paper between the BP and grease-grooved bullet.
I have learned the indexing the bullet trick too, my variation of a sharpsguy technique.
Will see if the 0*29'30" leade-only throat works with deep-seated greaser and short-COL.

Rip ...

Not to forget the smokeless Marlin .45-70 shooters,
4sixteen's load with 300-gr TSX FB in a Ruger No.1: 2600 fps:


How about the 300-gr TSX FN FB at 2400 fps in one of those Marlin 1895 rifles?



I wonder if 100 grains of molten lead could be poured into that FN hollow point?
That would move it's center of gravity forward a bit.
Might become a 400-gr Elmer Keith lever-action load at 1800 fps.
Might become a 400-gr .458 WIN Load at short-COL 2400 fps.

Rip ...

Now that is an interesting idea...
check the volume of the cavity in MLs or micro MLs using a syringe to calculate volume and convert volume to mass in lead to get a rough amount of grains of lead. I think if it weighs 350 grains, that would still make it worthwhile. Lots of work, but if you drill out the ass end of it and filled both holes you would make a bubba A-Frame out of a Barnes TSX lol

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Not to forget the smokeless Marlin .45-70 shooters,
4sixteen's load with 300-gr TSX FB in a Ruger No.1: 2600 fps:


How about the 300-gr TSX FN FB at 2400 fps in one of those Marlin 1895 rifles?



I wonder if 100 grains of molten lead could be poured into that FN hollow point?
That would move it's center of gravity forward a bit.
Might become a 400-gr Elmer Keith lever-action load at 1800 fps.
Might become a 400-gr .458 WIN Load at short-COL 2400 fps.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Now that is an interesting idea...
... if you drill out the ass end of it and filled both holes you would make a bubba A-Frame out of a Barnes TSX lol

boom stick,

You have been copied to the .458 WIN thread, for THE MISSION !

Rip ...

Hoping to shoot the "480-gr PH" with duplexed BP tomorrow:



Then I will set up some penetration tests to compare the PH at about 1250 to 1350 fps
to the "480-gr XTSX" at about 1000 fps faster.



If the Lyman 457121 "PH" casting at about .456"/480-gr in 50:50 WW-Pb is the wunderbullet for BP shooting in the .45-2.6"-SWT with .457"-grooved barrel,
then here is the wunderbullet for smokeless in
in all the .458" and .459"-grooved barrels of the .458 WIN and .45-2.6"-SWT:



For smokeless .45-70 loads this bullet could be powder-coat painted before putting the gas check on.
When cast in hard alloy and after a couple coats of PC paint, it can be sized to
.461" for .459" groove,
.460" for .458 groove,
maybe even .459" diameter for .457"-grooved rifles and .45-70 smokeless loads.

PC paint is the new paper patch. Bullets so treated might be called "polymer patched."

AA-5744 or H4198 should allow duplication of the BP-load velocities and faster,
especially if allowed Marlin 1895 pressure, instead of Trapdoor pressure.
No BP magic tricks needed for smokeless,
though some, such as indexing bullets when loading single-shot-style will not hurt.
Heck, use a scope too if your eyes are not as sharp as sharpsguy's eyes.

Rip ...

quote:

How about the 300-gr TSX FN FB at 2400 fps in one of those Marlin 1895 rifles?

Got a supply of 300gr TSX FN for my Marlin. Higher impact speed more shock, more expansion less penetration. Or less expansion, more momentum and more penetration with the 400gr Buster. Close range hunting either way.

400gr Barnes Buster vs 300gr TSX FN (18-1/2" barrel) -

4sixteen,

That is a good load comparison, easy on a short-barreled Marlin 1895, and even Elmer Keith would approve of
300 gr Barnes TSX FN FB at 2200 fps Mv
400 gr Barnes Buster at 1800 fps MV

Rip ...

I got rained out of the shooting today.
Tomorrow is another day.

Hoping my duplexed-BP load with the PH in the .45-2.6"-SWT might be right on,
like a circa 1874 .461 Gibbs No.1 "Military Breech Loader" match load.

A "3-book-review" collection of information on the .461 Gibbs No.1 cartridge may be found here, most of the last half of this page:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/4821083332/p/160

Interesting that the .461 Gibbs No.1 used the same rim as a ".50 Sharps."
It is a shortened version of the British .500 BP case head size necked down to .45-bore, shortened to 2.35", and given the thicker rim.

Rip ...

From page 161 of THE MISSION, copied here in order to further THE MISSION,
and get some constructive criticism/analysis.

I will slow the load down to imitate the sharpsguy load: 480-grainer at 1250 to 1350 fps.
I try try paper-patched slicks to imitate the .461 Gibbs No.1 that Selous used: 540-grainer at 1250 to 1350 fps.
Something in common there, eh?

My excuse is that I went too fast with a soft lead, grease-grooved, "480-grain" Lyman 457121PH bullet:



Member sharpsguy uses this bullet in his Shiloh Sharps rifles (.45-70 and .45-110) at 1250 to 1350 fps, with barrel groove of .458", twist 1:20" or 1:18".
This was also supposed to be an imitation of the earliest (circa 1874) M.B.L. match load the Brits were using at Wimbledon for .461 Gibbs No.1.

Of course the Brits were using paper-patched bullets,
starting with 480-grainers in 1874,
went to 540-grainers a few years later,
then worked up to 570-grainers and back down to 530-grainers too, in the 1880s.

I think that the velocity for all those different weight bullets was about 1300 to 1350 fps.
They were going for longer range and less wind drift by adding bullet weight and adding black powder.

The old bullet technology (paper-patched or grease-grooved, cast and swaged lead boolits)
does not respond well to +1400 fps.
1401 fps at 5 yards would correct to about 1413 fps MV for BC = 0.243 with the PH bullet.
I think this is another case of bullets stripping in the rifling.
This is with the .45-2.6-SWT.
The bullet was seated as deeply as possible and had a long jump to the rifling.
It will be interesting to see if just slowing it down will make it quit keyholing.

Rip ...

Don’t think it was too fast Rip. Either too small, too hard, or your load did not boot it hard enough to obturate. If it did strip, it’s because of the long jump to lands which reduces the boot in the rear. Or something. I’ll let the experts weigh in.

Saw similar results firing cast bullets in my Marlin also. Unreliable. Better suited as a hobby for playing at the range under controlled conditions. I stick with jacketed or monos in the field.

A couple of observations. 1) Welcome to the world of the 45 2.6.

2)I have a 40-70 Sharps straight that can be wonderfully accurate. I had Steve Brooks make me a 40 caliber version of the PH bullet for that rifle, and he did a very good job of it. I fought that rifle for two and a half YEARS trying to get it to shoot, and my 40 caliber PH bullet does the same thing out of my 40-70 as yours is doing out of your 45 2.6. The same 40 caliber PH bullet works great in the two 40=65 rifles I have shot it in. One is a Shiloh, and the other is a Pedersoli. For sure and certain, you're going to have to change your powder/powder charge, and get away from the duplex to make it work in that particular rifle. There is a reason the Sharps factory only loaded that cartridge for about six months.

I suspect it will do its best with straight black powder after you find the right brand/granulation to feed it, and the right duck feather to rub it with. My 45-110 load is the PH bullet over 83 grains of KIK 2f in a Starline case and a CCI BR2 primer. Velocity is 1338 fps with an extreme spread of 8 fps over my Oehler 35P. Shoots fine in three different rifles in 45-110.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Don’t think it was too fast Rip. Either too small, too hard, or your load did not boot it hard enough to obturate. If it did strip, it’s because of the long jump to lands which reduces the boot in the rear. Or something. I’ll let the experts weigh in.

Thanks.



On reconsideration I reckon this PH bullet will not work in the SWT throat. For multiple reasons as you list.
The very short COL of 3.035" required to cover the grease grooves just makes for too much slug jump in this throat:
Lesser kick in the ass of the bullet, higher velocity when the bullet meets rifling, etc.

I am just as sure that this throat is good for paper-patched.
They are seated long and get patched to fit the grooves.
It's all fun:






Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Saw similar results firing cast bullets in my Marlin also. Unreliable. Better suited as a hobby for playing at the range under controlled conditions. I stick with jacketed or monos in the field.

BAH ! HUMBUG !

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
A couple of observations. 1) Welcome to the world of the 45 2.6.

You did warn me.

2)I have a 40-70 Sharps straight that can be wonderfully accurate. I had Steve Brooks make me a 40 caliber version of the PH bullet for that rifle, and he did a very good job of it. I fought that rifle for two and a half YEARS trying to get it to shoot, and my 40 caliber PH bullet does the same thing out of my 40-70 as yours is doing out of your 45 2.6.

Really ? Powder column harmonics ? Same throating and rifling groove diameter and twist as the other rifles that shoot it well ?

The same 40 caliber PH bullet works great in the two 40-65 rifles I have shot it in. One is a Shiloh, and the other is a Pedersoli. For sure and certain, you're going to have to change your powder/powder charge, and get away from the duplex to make it work in that particular rifle. There is a reason the Sharps factory only loaded that cartridge for about six months.

Well, I better look up your recipe for the .45-70 load with the PH bullet.
I will just go to using it in the short-throated .45-70 with BP loads. I have .45-70s galore, including Pedersoli Long Range Sharps 1874 (34"), Uberti Sharps 1874 Hunter (28"), Browning/Miroku High Wall (28"), rebarreled antique Rolling Block carbine.
Is it low enough pressure for my Trapdoors? I have an 1880s Springfield military rifle as original, and a Pedersoli Trapdoor carbine.
A Baikal Spartan double rifle in .45-70? I better not re-chamber that one to .45-2.6"-SWT just yet.

If I cast it in harder alloy and powder-coat paint it and seat it LongCOL over a half-case-full of AA-5744 it will work in the .45-2.6-SWT, Goldie Pedersoli. But she has sworn off smokeless.

Maybe I could try the PH in the Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, or Winchester 1886, except seated deep for the action function, with smokeless and powder-coat paint
The possibilities are many.

I suspect it will do its best with straight black powder after you find the right brand/granulation to feed it, and the right duck feather to rub it with.
My 45-110 load is the PH bullet over 83 grains of KIK 2f in a Starline case and a CCI BR2 primer. Velocity is 1338 fps with an extreme spread of 8 fps over my Oehler 35P. Shoots fine in three different rifles in 45-110.

Your .45-70 load for the PH:
66 grains of GOEX FFFg (I have some of that) in a Starline case and a CCI BR2 primer. Velocity 1242 fps in 30" Shiloh Sharps.
Cut-Rite wax paper one layer over powder,
powder compression considerable.
Dip-lube the PH in 50:50 BW/OO
Size lubed PH in .458" Lee sizer for your .458" groove diameter.

How did I do on my note taking?

You also mentioned a smokeless load of 38.5 grains of IMR 3031 giving 1350 fps.

And a duplex load of "53 to 54 grains" of either FFFg or FFg plus 5 grains of starter powder of my choice.
My notes are unclear on the BP granulation.
I did not get the velocity of that last load.

Rip ...

Stock Pedersolis and Shilohs do not have the same chamber and throat configurations. There are differences in the rifling configurations as well. Both Pedersoli and Shiloh come in 18 twist in the 45, and 16 twist in the 40 calibers.

I rarely use duplex, but when I do, it is either 1f or 2f granulation. Velocity on that last load is in the neighborhood of 1270 fps.

It is not a cast bullet accuracy issue with this rifle, as it has already demonstrated that it will shoot a cast bullet, and shoot it well. Rather it is a combination of propellant and bullet configuration in this cartridge case.

Rip
No need to deep seat a grease groove bullet. Load it as long as you want. I do in my cast 458wm all the time. Just a bit of care not to expose them to debris before loading into the rifle. Run that Ph bullet out to the lands. That’s why you have a single shot!! Smack it in the ass and see what happens.

sharpsguy,

Thanks for the info. I have added it to my notes.

Below might be my "duck feather" to tickle the soft lead PH into working with BP in my .458 Winchester-throated .45-2.6".
It is copied from THE MISSION in response to Fury01's reply, which he also copied to THE MISSION:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Fury01,

Thanks for the input.
Idea: Powder-coat paint those .456"/479-grain-WW/PB PH bullets,
Then dip lube the bottom/last 3 grease grooves and seat them inside the case, and/or grease cookie alone beneath the bullet, like with paper-patched.

This will leave the top/first 4 grooves forward of case mouth.
This will produce a COL of 3.500" instead of 3.035" when all grease grooves are covered.
One more grease groove out is too far, runs out of throat.
This will make for minimal powder compression even if a 0.2" thick grease cookie plus nitro card plus wax paper(s) are used beneath the bullet.

This will be a hybrid of paper-patch, grease-groove, and powder-coat painted.
The ultimate BP load,
all it lacks is smokeless powder, gas check, and harder alloy.

Will start off with only 5 grains of SR4759 and 75 grains of FFg with the made-for-BP PH bullet.
That would be where Wal Winfer said to start with the .461 Gibbs using a 400-gr to 500-gr bullet

1/2" Longer COL itself should slow the load down.
1300 fps is the goal for re-enactor fun with BP.

That RCBS 45-500-FNGC will do duty in the .458" to .459"-grooved barrels, it being the gas-checked, non-Luddite, twin brother of the PH.

Any other use I have for the PH will be for short-throated .45-70, seated deep and greased for BP.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A great paragraph from Wal Winfer Volume 2:



The naked bullet shown above is the .456"/479-grainer made from WW/Pb-50:50.
The one in the .45-2.6"-SWT dummy at 3.500" COL is made of 92/5/2/1 alloy and is a 0.457"/462-grainer from same mould.

Rip ...

I'm gonna do it:



Three shots into one hole at 50 yards and I will accept this unconventional loading technique.
Really it is just substituting powder-coat paint for the paper patch:
Polymer-patched grooved bullets.
A lube cookie and grease in the bottom three grooves are just for BP fouling abatement.

A half-case full of AA-5744 would be much simpler,
but a mildly compressed load of BP is much more uniform.
I realize that straight BP may well be the most uniform of all,
and the larger the amount of smokeless in the duplexing, the greater the extreme spread of velocities will be.
So, a compromise: Only 5 grains of SR4759 with 75 grains of FFg.
Less BP fouling, shoot 50 rounds without cleaning, AND good uniformity is hoped for.
I expect lead fouling will be nil with the polymer-patched, grease-lubed PH,
at .457" diameter in .457" grooves.

Rip ...

400gr Barnes Busters (A2015 powder) from my Marlin GBL. Nary a flyer. Nor keyholer. Dee kars'n a-round naught.